Fuses

FM = Fuses Matter.

My scientific empirical evidence.  My ears....that is all I need.

Agreed. Path are the best resistors for a crossover. 
MRAs are more appropriate for amplifiers, and other electronics. 

@lemonhaze,

I have compared Path to Duelund, Mundorf and Mills MRA.  The Path are the best as they are the quietest and most neutral.  They have an uncanny sense of ease to them. 
The Duelund resistors are good, but compared to Path can sound a tad too brilliant in the upper mids and highs. Same for the Mundorf which I did not really care for. 
The Mills MRA are second best behind the Path. They are pretty neutral and much lower cost if that is a consideration.  

Hey mitch, I will look into that as soon as I get a little time to think. Right now we have 4 or 5 days dry weather ahead so wife and I are trying to finish off some house repairs before the cold wet stuff really sets in. I bought a leaky old Irish cottage which is playing hell with my audio life and the damp has wrecked 2 power amps.

@OP, apologies for going off topic.

lemonhaze-

@MC, when you selected the Path resistors had you made any comparisons with the likes of Duelund or Mundorf? I have tried some different ones and settled on Powertron by Vishay. Rated at 3W or 30W when mounted on a small heatsink. Clean, detailed and very dynamic but have not compared them to the 3 mentioned above. It seems even experienced DIYers seldom bother with resistors which I find surprising. 

I looked at those but no direct comparison experience. My crossover components were selected the same as all my other components: search around and sift through reviews and user comments for the best values.    

I learned from experience a very long time ago the difference these things make. So I was kind of surprised when some people told me resistors and inductors aren't so important. For some reason virtually all audiophiles fixate on caps. Kind of like they fixate on tubes. So it was pretty easy for me to disregard anyone like that and give just as much attention to resistors and inductors as caps. 

While I went off reviews and didn't compare myself, just the other day a local audiobud Brandon doing a similar XO upgrade on his Tekton Pendragon XL did. He heard a huge difference between the standard coil inductor and foil. Just like I thought there would be based on reading.   

So yeah it is kind of surprising experienced audiophiles don't see the value. Then again considering the way some of them think about fuses maybe not so surprising after all. Oh well. This is how we get to have systems they can only dream of.

I am more of a Tesla guy.
Modern Astronomy.... Let’s not even go there :)
But yes, people that think all Fuses are the same, shouldn't insult others that have found that not to be the case.
Commander Locke: Damnit, Morpheus, not everyone believes what you believe.
Morpheus: My beliefs don’t require them to.
Matrix.

@lemonhaze 
Glad to help.

• Open Audiogon.com in your browser 
• Use the drop down next to the Audiogon logo in the upper left corner
• You will see Forum, Blue Book, Virtual Systems, and Merch
• Open Virtual Systems
• Open Create System from the banner across the top
• Name your system in the drop down box 
• Click Get Started and follow the prompts to enter your gear, pics, and supporting info

Albert Einstein formulated the " cosmological constant "
and yet today we know that not only is it expanding but
it is also expanding at a faster rate rather than slowing down ,
something that defies physics as we know it !

So when one asks for help or an opinion about our hobby 
it is disappointing that the discussions seem to expand into 
back and forth childish behavior .

You either hear a difference or you don't period !
Say so and move on .

@MC, when you selected the Path resistors had you made any comparisons with the likes of Duelund or Mundorf?  I have tried some different ones and settled on Powertron by Vishay. Rated at 3W or 30W when mounted on a small heatsink. Clean, detailed and very dynamic but have not compared them to the 3 mentioned above.  It seems even experienced DIYers seldom bother with resistors which I find surprising.

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/powertron-resistors.html

The Powertron may also be causing an upper midrange glare. I have little time at the moment to experiment further not to mention the mess changing caps makes to a carefully constructed XO. 

To some geniuses "Science" only means some corporations hiring a team of "experts", who do a bunch of measuring, poking, prodding....etc etc etc.
when they scream science, they mean "Mega Corporate Science"... Unless you have Billions of dollars backing up your point of view, that view is not valid, no matter how much anecdotal, or personal evidence you might have.
It’s a religion of "Mega Corporate" Science worship, only extremely well funded Priests in white robes need apply, and their proclamations can never be challenged by the likes of us non sanctioned fools.
Corporations are the Church....and Science is the new Holy Spirit. One cannot exist without the other.

They forget that nearly every major invention of the 19th and 20th century was made by some dude in his garage. with the mindset these people have, planes, telephones, computers, radios, TVs, cars, phones, lights, electricity would never have been invented or discovered.

"If you cannot measure it....it does not exist."
Albert Einstein


Actually these are the real quotes

„The mere formulation of a problem is far more often essential than its solution, which may be merely a matter of mathematical or experimental skill. To raise new questions, new possibilities, to regard old problems from a new angle requires creative imagination and makes real advances in science.“ — Albert Einstein

„One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike—and yet it is the most precious thing we have.“ — Albert Einstein

@mitch2,  thanks for the thoughtful post. I attempted awhile ago to put something up but could not find how to do it. I have right now clicked on my profile but see no mention of 'Audiogon Virtual System'. Can you assist please?

Your rather weak attempt at deflection has absolutely no connection to the question that I posed , I am asking to see Empirical evidenc to back up the statements made above that are entirely measurable and not subjective ... have another go

I don't understand it, therefore it can't be true, therefore I refuse to try it.

Think I got it, @tsushima1 

Your argument would be better served if you actually had any experience with the subject at hand.

Come back after you've tried a couple of fuses in different components, and let us know what you think. I think most offer a money-back guarantee.

“ Ordinary fuses are designed only to fail, no effort whatsoever goes into trying to get the most linear response possible at all points up to failure. Reasonable then to expect ordinary fuses to get hot a lot, and change resistance a lot, even well before failure.“

As you have decided to use a hint of sciencey speak where are your measurements published that record this improved linear frequency response for the QSA fuses that you are endlessly promoting ?

I cannot find any measured test results of this sort published on the QSA or Synergistic research web pages for their products.

where are your measurements published that record the relative temperature response under load to back up your assertion that QSA fuses respond differently in this regard to a standard Bussmann fuse ?

When upgrading my crossovers earlier this year it involved a long deep dive into what each part (cap, resistor, inductor) does and how each one affects the sound. Every single one of the parts in there now is the exact same part, as measured the standard way using a meter to measure inductance, resistance, capacitance. Has to be. Otherwise it would screw with the frequency response and mess up the sound of the speakers. The goal is to make it better, not different. Better.

One of the things I had learned a long time ago with another crossover is resistor quality matters. Bad low quality resistor, smeared low quality sound. One way this happens, resistors heat up. When this happens resistance increases. This is just a fact, you could look it up. Hotter the wire, more the resistance.

Why do we use a resistor in a crossover in the first place? Why not just caps and inductors? Because the different drivers have different sensitivity, we use the resistor to match levels. Resistors are how we turn the volume down. Literally. A resistor is an attenuator. There are even volume controls made with a whole bunch of resistors of different values, called stepped attenuators. Each click is a little more or less resistance, a little more or less volume.

So in a speaker it is real important that we use resistors that can handle a lot of power without heating up. Heat is the enemy. To the extent a resistor gets hot it increases resistance, which turns down the volume, and this can happen very fast. Dynamics are fast. Thus a cheap resistor can rob your music of dynamics.

So I selected the very best Path Audio resistors I could find. The result is an already very lively and dynamic speaker became even more impressively dynamic! Details are largely dynamic swings. Also got a nice improvement in detail.

Now to the fuse. Just a thin piece of wire, it is supposed to burn out at a certain point, before too much current passes, in order to prevent the wires inside burning out.  

Burn out? Yeah. The fuse filament gets real hot, so hot it burns out.

Shocking! Yeah, no seriously, that’s what it does. Tiny thin little wire, gets real hot, so hot it melts.

Ordinary fuses are designed only to fail, no effort whatsoever goes into trying to get the most linear response possible at all points up to failure. Reasonable then to expect ordinary fuses to get hot a lot, and change resistance a lot, even well before failure. This robs the music of detail and dynamics. Just like the cheap resistors in my crossover.

What are the improvements people hear with better fuses? Great improvement in dynamics and detail. Precisely the same improvements our scientific analysis has led us to expect.

Real scientific analysis, the kind that breaks physical phenomena down into discrete understandable parts, analyzes the function of each part, and then proceeds logically to examine the consequences.

“but who are you to tell me what I can or can't hear through my system?”

Awwwwwww Bless ...

Arrogant ignorance should be ignored; or to quote Sokrates: ‘ the only thing I know for sure is that I know nothing.’

@lemonhaze

"Post a list of your components for all to see so that open-minded, experienced and helpful members can offer advice on where you went so WRONG."

Many here have done just that - it is called your Audiogon Virtual System. Folks here enjoy looking at the systems and getting new ideas. While a member’s posted system can provide some context to their remarks in these forums, most who comment on the posted systems offer encouragement and helpful advice, rather than use the information as a stick.

" Fuses themselves do NOT affect sound."

Oh yes, they most certainly do.
If you can't hear a difference, there are probably several reasons for that.

First would probably be because you've never tried one.

Do you think thousands and thousands of audiophiles would keep buying expensive fuses if they didn't do anything?

If they didn't do anything, I would ask for my money back.

I don't care if you buy expensive fuses or not....but who are you to tell me what I can or can't hear through my system?

I fail to understand why some insist on repeating the same old tiresome put-down. You don’t wanna try because you KNOW fuses can’t affect the sound so move on. You can perhaps spend the time listening to music unless your system just does not entertain which would not surprise me.

Here’s what to do: Post a list of your components for all to see so that open-minded, experienced and helpful members can offer advice on where you went so WRONG.

@cakyol:
YOU are so clever
you ARE so clever
you are SO clever
you are so what?

@yuviarora,
Honest ociffer, no one was drunk driving,
we were all in the back singing. 😄

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise Sorry Sir, I had to pull you over, looks like you have been doing....Too much Thinking and Driving. It is illegal on this, and many an Audio Forums.
Thinking and Driving, might lead you to discover things previously thought impossible, and we just cannot have that now can we... :)

Now please go buy a new expensive piece of gear every other month. That distorted fuzz on your music playback is just part of the charm, and can be upgraded away, Some Day, in a far away land, eventually.. maybe. 

Gotta love the argument (pulled outta where?) that corrosion on the contacts where a fuse is held MAY negatively effect resistance, and therefore, the sound quality, and still hold the position that the fuse has NO effect on the sound quality. If the fuse is getting close to failing, it still wouldn't have any effect on the sound until if fails. Then, no more sound.

There’s another fallacy that doesn’t hold water as well. That being, a cheaply made fuse of lousy conductivity (and corrodes like hell) can’t be bettered by one made with superior conductivity (and less tendency to corrode).

The two arguments tend to contradict each other. That, and why would any make of audio gear go to the trouble of designing a beautiful piece of gear and skimp on the fuse and it’s holder? Did they plan on having all the gear they make find it’s way back to them for repair and/or replacement of the fuse? They don’t want customers digging around inside so they couldn’t see that coming? Please.

All the best,
Nonoise

If you actually tried it you wouldn't say "may", you would know. Since you clearly do not know, why do you use all caps as if some kind of unimpeachable authority? Shouldn't you say instead, "I have no clue whatsoever just an incredibly strong yet uninformed opinion"? 

Or if not then please tell me I am wrong, and let us all know which fuses you have compared? What is your "NOT" based on? Anything? Anything AT ALL?

Fuses themselves do NOT affect sound.

The corrosion which may have occurred in their seats MAY do.  Cleaning those may have reduced the series resistance in the mains circuit, hence leading to a better performance.

No.

But there is a remedy for that.

I just read on their site that the SR Purple fuse sounds best after 200-300 hours.  What will it sound like after 50 hours, terrible?   The black fuse takes 72 hours (in my two trials) prior to sounding great.  Prior to that, it sounded wrong/bad/rough.   The SR site indicates that the Purple fuse is very significantly superior to their prior fuses.   Next up, SR Purple duplex?   I would appreciate sound forum feedback prior to purchasing/trying a Purple fuse.   

Keep it up MC ... you are doing our job for us... 

https://youtu.be/uN4Di8DEPf8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN4Di8DEPf8

You came in here and attacked everyone that doesn’t believe what you want them to believe  ( "I’m one of the few contributors to this thread thinking scientifically." ), and are now blaming them for what you have been doing in all your posts.
Can you not see the blatant hypocrisy on your part?

Enjoy your MD from 1984......very appropriate year by the way.

The True Believers stick together and attack outsiders.  I came for discourse but it appears that the game, here, is argue, attack, defeat.  I’ll move on and you guys can do what you do.
Enjoy your music!

An anology:  despite an apparent lack of rigorous listening tests, we all know that there is a meaningful difference in SQ between tube and solid state amplification.  (I know the differences in harmonic distortion can be measured.)

Enjoy your degree!

Hands on experience is different than Education, which is different than critical thinking.
Some of the dumbest people I know are Doctors, 2 in my immediate family (neither one can change a flat tire, or tie their shoelaces properly).
And by the way, your education never ends... and an MD from 1984 doesn’t mean squat as it pertains to the subject that is being talked about.

Appeal to perceived authority does not transcend hands on/applied understanding. 

Never said anything about measurements.
I’d compare my education to anyone’s here…M.D. in 1984.
Enjoy your music!

I’m one of the few contributors to this thread thinking scientifically.

This "scientifically" trope is so tiresome. I blame our system of so-called education. It would seem to have gone nowhere but downhill since I was in it. I can still clearly recall this being covered perfectly clearly in school.

The easiest way to explain it is to think of two related but different sets of phenomena. One psychological/behavioral, the other material/physical. For some reason certain people here are fixated on and obsess with the material/physical even though the subject - audio - is clearly behavioral/psychological. A categorical error they never do recover from.

For behavioral/psychological science we have a number of different means of observation. We can try and observe everything all the time, we can observe everything at intervals, etc. If we choose to observe only certain things at certain times there is nothing more or less scientific about it, for the simple fact science is not a set of procedures. Science is not, "You must measure this, and you must measure that." Science is a method.

Would be so nice if people would understand just this one point. Science is a method. There is nothing about a meter or oscilloscope that magically makes them scientific. There is nothing about listening evaluations that dooms them to being unscientific. There simply is no way of saying something is unscientific simply because someone says, "I heard it" instead of, "I measured it." It just don’t work that way.

This is why reviewers always tell you at least a little about how they do their comparison. It isn’t for flavor or style. It is for context. Also it is important to know the thing we are comparing is really the thing we are comparing. If five things are changed at once we can say what we heard but in no way can we say which one of the five accounts for what we heard. Too many variables. This would be unscientific. It would be illogical too, to say the least.

That is why for example my system page is posted, and that is definitely why I explained what I did in warming up and how my system changes as it warms up. This gives my observations credibility as everyone knows gosh millercarbon is aware his system changes so he knows to expect that and what he says about the fuse probably really is about the fuse, he is not being misled by warm-up. See?

A serious person who understands, or at least wants to understand, would be thinking along these lines. To call something "unscientific" while demonstrating a false notion of the word, well let’s just say it doesn’t exactly burnish the rep.

Under? They are stuck on the paper. I will have to pull and take a better look. Was not a lot of time the other night.

millercarbon ...

Thanks for the info on the QSA Violet fuse. I'm curious ... by any chance
can you feel any roughness under the two pieces of black tape, like maybe a rough sand-like substance? 

Yes, please get an SR Purple to make the comparison. That would be very interesting. 

Frank

No, that’s not what I said.
What I said is what I posted.
Enjoy your music!

@avitacom  so basically what you are saying is....don't do your research, trust the experts....
I have been hearing a  whole lot of that lately.....

Outgunned. Sheesh.   

willgolf, oregonpapa,

The QSA Violet arrived Thursday. Only had time for the usual warm-up while eating dinner followed by four sides, Tracy Chapman and Neil Diamond Serenade.    

The XLO demagnetizing tracks repeat about a dozen times while the Sovereign spins and the Herron idles for a good 30 minutes or so. Even with all that there is a big improvement the first few minutes. I'm talking every night. The first side always sounds a lot better by the end than at the beginning, and things continue to improve until at around 90-120 minutes it is hugely better than in the beginning.    

So when the beginning of Talkin' 'bout a Revolution sounded terrific I knew the Violet fuse was the Real Deal. One of my favorite ways of knowing you're getting real detail and not stuff being added is when you find you can hear the natural acoustic space. Well, I will have to go back and play Fast Car again because all during that one I was struck by being able to hear her voice reverberate and decay all through the whole song. The reason I say go back and hear it again is because as the side went along there seemed to be less of this. Like still excellent, but not so obvious. Probably 50/50 this was one of those phases things go through as they burn in. Some don't care for these kinds of changes as things burn in. I freaking love it. Just wish I could snap my fingers and freeze it sometimes though.  

Probably the biggest most obvious and consistent improvement is in the clarity and dynamics of transients. Not just the attack though, the body and tone of the note are nice and full too. Chapman has a lot of bongo drums, both the skin and the body of the drum are to the point it sounds almost like a musical instrument as much playing a note as percussion. Her voice on my pressing can have a bit of an edge or glare to it at times, this is still there but much less, much more natural sounding now.  

By the time Neil Diamond was done this was all quite a bit better to the point I hated having to work the next day. It will be so nice when I'm retired and can listen as late as I want. This is only an hour or two of current running through it and already I am a very happy camper!  

The QSA Violet has two very small bits of black adhesive tape kind of things stuck on, each a little less than 1mm thick and wide that wrap about 1/3 of the way around the fuse and located about 1/3 of the way in from each end. People who doubt the whole thing might want to stop and think about that. Why two pieces? Why not just one? It is time and money to cut and stick two vs one. Pictures on the Tweakgeek website show what looks like a big piece of this same tape on the most expensive fuse.    

Could it be this is what exerts the force that puts all these thoughts in my head? It must be something like that, I mean we all know a fuse could never affect the sound, and my brain being too lazy to go for the noxious refund would surely be overworked to come up with such a detailed description on its own. Right?    

Kidding. Just, if you want to live rent free, this is how we do it.  

SR Purple supposed to start shipping next week. Guess I will have to get one to compare. This Violet was against Light Blue. Which I liked better than Orange. Also have a Yellow, but it is planned for the Herron. That one is a lot more work to get at the fuse. We will just have to see how it goes I guess.

Patronisingly Condescending Pavlovian response from mr pompous
Yawn........ 

I sincerely hope that you all enjoy your fuses and that they enhance your listening experience, which is what is important.

@rsf507
Thanks! I will work on that after I get purple fuse.

I am certainly outnumbered but I’m one of the few contributors to this thread thinking scientifically.  If it weren’t for science and engineering, we wouldn’t have this hobby.

@femoore12 donate an orange fuse to me and you become an honorary member in the club

How do I join the Orthodoxy of True Believers? Is it invitation only or does it require a donation? 

I am reminded when hopelessly outgunned try and pretend nobody noticed.

I am reminded that it’s not worthwhile to  challenge The Orthodoxy of True Believers.

Slow work day so let me tease this one apart.

Just based on a preponderance of the testimonials the fuses may be exerting some effect.

So you’re saying they exert an effect directly on the mind then. Interesting.

But, Millercarbon, your “test” as you describe it, is biased, and its reliability does not rise above the testimonial.

All tests are biased. Say you decide to test voltage. Then you are biased to voltage. Even the method chosen to measure the voltage will affect the results. You have to choose one or another. Every choice reflects a bias. There is no test you can perform that is not biased in some way.

For example, the FDA would never approve a drug based in a bunch of testimonials.

Yes well bad sound never killed anyone. So far as we know. Allowances for your system, of course.

Finally, if a consumer pays several hundred dollars for a tweak, and it has no effect, then consumer would either have to seek a refund or tolerate a noxious cognitive dissonance.

Ahh yes, the noxious cognitive dissonance of the money back guarantee. Right. You got me.

The brain may take a third path, the path of least resistance, that is, to believe in the tweek.

Which circle of Dante's Hell is this? 
How many times does one beat a dead horse?
Why is it all the newcomers think they have the reasoned answers that have been shot to hell long ago?

All the best,
Nonoise