@ebm said: If a dealers treats you badly MOVE ON!! Yes, this makes sense. Maybe this is easy for you, but it’s not that simple for many people. In an age of declining B&M stores, really helps to audition things, and there are not many places to do that. In a single store, one might be able handle quality components or speakers from half a dozen makers. I know we can get things on trial, etc. through the mail but that is very time consuming and the shipping costs will mount up. So, it’s hard to totally break with a local shop -- unless there are many nearby. |
If a dealers treats you badly MOVE ON!! |
Oh man this brings back old memories. Long time ago I live in Scottsdale AZ and was going to school as ASU. Started to get into audio, so went to one of the local shops in Phoenix. I think I could have stood there with a bag of money and not gotten any help. I was so pissed. Went off in a huff and dropped by another shop. They knew I didn't have a bag of money, but spent hours letting me listen to different systems. They showed me what a great system could really sound like. I've had the same basic experience when living and shopping in The UK and Netherlands. So shops just don't get service. Now I'm in Dallas Texas. Huge shout out to Audio Concepts - they are great!! |
I drove my truck to a high end audio shop in a rather upscale neighborhood 27 years ago, dressed down in blue jeans and a flannel shirt. I was initially going to show up with my wife , who is quite attractive, in her car; a car was more "respectible" than a truck in 1993. I just wanted to see if it would make a difference in how I was treated.
In a word I was ignored. It was around December 10, so the store had more traffic than usual. After almost 45 minutes, despite 3 salespeople in the store, I was not even spoken to. Finally I walked out, and wound up at another shop a couple of miles away, a direct competitor roughly the same size, where I was greeted at the door,despite a similar Christmas rush. I called my wife and had her meet me. We spent two grand that day on our first "audiophile"2 channel system, and another thousand on a subwoofer and power conditioner within the next few months.
Over the next 10 years I sent several of my wealthy clentele to that store, and helped my close friend , a neurologist, and our female real estate agent purchase home theatre systems. Just those two spent around 15,000.My total referrals were easily in the 6 figures.
I went over to the store that looked past me and inquired about some speaker wire. It was about 2 years after being ignored and watching other people who walked in after me being served. I spoke to the owner about what happened. He asked me who ignored me. I responded "you for one". I then told him who profited from his condescension, and how many referrals he lost. He apologized, and said the Christmas rush was to blame. I told him it didn't seem to affect his competition. I bought the speaker wires, Audioquest type 4, which I still use to this day, and on another visit a moderately priced set of Grado headphones.
When I opened my own business some years later, I remembered my above experience, and applied its lessons. My clients are all by referral. Other than an inexpensive and rather neglected website, which I had done just to say I have one, I have never had to spend a dime on advertising. And incidentally, one of my longest and most lucrative referral lines, now over 15 years old, started with a single mom on a limited budget.
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"Novelty LP Records!" signs in the antique shops of the 2030's..... |
I think we've moved on and into the era of the 'boutique' dealers...
To survive, they offer a 'complete package' vs. the individual item(s) of interest to that diminishing group of shoppers.
Yes, we've become dinosaurs....the digital comet struck, and the shock wave is wiping out the substanance of our desires. We can either adapt (and quickly), or bleach our bones as the 'famliar' becomes scarcer.
We, as well as our equipment....have become...'vintage'. *G* |
I wish it was just the salesperson. |
I have felt that way before, definitely, but I can remember even as a clueless high school student in our local hi end hifi store being treated with respect by a nice gentlemen named Vic! |
If you deal with an owner versus a salesperson, you will have a better experience, just like any other retail encounter. Audio retail is a declining business, so you see stores morphing into "whole house automation" with security monitoring, multi room speaker installs, in home theaters (with chairs) and even automated blinds! Think Best Buy Magnolia....who has "designers".
I long for the good old days when there were 5 times as many (or more) independent audio stores in the area or small chains that all sold different equipment. The iPod, iPhone, internet are all hurting it, and the ones who know how it adapt will make it, and they need to treat their customers right to do so.
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@hilde45 @big_greg I had a thread once asking about good shops to buy used and someone mentioned Echo Audio. I immediately bookmarked them and surf them all the time. Some of the deals they have there are *unreal* and correspondence has been great. Everyone should bookmark their used page. I'm always torn between giving them a shout out and just keeping my mouth shut for selfish reasons. All too often I see a great deal and it's already been snapped up, but the less selfish part of me wants to see them continue to enjoy great success, so whenever anybody asks, I always mention them. In general, people are more likely to mention bad experiences than positive ones. |
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...as for my 'personal audio attitude'...
I'm just as bad about it.
Just because I've not dropped the $ on it rivaling a Benz or Beemer doesn't mean I'm not picky.
"Think Outside the Box!"
The box doesn't exist. Get over it. |
hilde45....Precisely. *S*
I've some recognition that we deal in dreams....
"THIS is the playground I wanted as a child!"
"Our kids love it! And the neighborhood ones' do too!"
We received an email yesterday from a former client for which we did the most expensive residential playset we'd done up to that time.
"We're planning to build a house. My wife said that either we're going to have to move That playset to the New house...or have another one made for it...."
(We've moved playsets....it's worse than a 4th floor concrete sofa....)
*blink* I'll call that Success.....on enough levels...*S*
For those who can't afford us, we're happy to advise.
For those who want to DIY, we provide access to that which they can't normally get, or could only get through a contractor....
Better parts. Where to get the parts for a zip line that's of a better standard than a cheap plastic one...and the proper harnesses and gear to make it safe....and advising of the inherent risk of a zip line that's DIY.
"Don't cut corners or take 'shortcuts'...unless you've Spectacular Insurance."
We build to commercial standards...on everything.
I like it....or it doesn't get done.
I refuse to risk your kids for a buck.
Can't deal with that?
Go away. |
@schubert , yup.
And not all survived. The ones that have been lucky and smart enough to get the right balance of stock and service.
Likely these are the ones that y'all mention on forums like this....
We travel around the S/E, since we design/build/install. If I'm in a city where there's a B&M store ("Hey, Google!"), I'll drop in...
Usually in our company T-shirt, driving the company 4wd diesel dually.
Typically, I'll just nose about, checking out the wares. I'll look for that which is mentioned on these pages.
It's what happens while I do that....is what I'm paying attention to.
If I get followed around like it's expected I'll paw at the stock or act suspicious....or get the 'down the nose' 'tude....I'm gone.
If I get engaged in conversation, there's a +.
If I get offered a demo, there's +*X.
The latter is Rare.
I carry a demo CD in our 'lectronics kit, with the 'puter, printer, cables (we 'take over' the 'in room' flat screen, since we're generally 'in town' for a minimun of 2 weeks on an installation)....
That cd has been out twice.
On one revisit, 'we don't demo'. Different salesperson....
The other obviously didn't like my 'taste'.
This is why I buy online. |
@big_greg I had a thread once asking about good shops to buy used and someone mentioned Echo Audio. I immediately bookmarked them and surf them all the time. Some of the deals they have there are *unreal* and correspondence has been great. Everyone should bookmark their used page.
@asvjerry
"We're not inexpensive, but you will get exactly what you want."
That is the perfect, perfect sales line -- because it's honest and speaks both about your company's integrity and desire to connect with the customer. And it's short.
And I bet if someone can't afford something of yours, you offer them suggestions even if it might not mean a sale right now.
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Back in 60's , 7o's a lot of young punk rich kids bought stores .
They were that way 24/7/365 .
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Here's a 'non-audio' example for y'all, but it's an example of 'potential client approach'....at least, mine.
It's been a 'working Sunday'...one employ had short hours, the other can't work Wed. & Thurs. (new child, long story)....so we're 'blowin' 'n goin'....
I'm in a T-shirt, shorts, and sandals.
Young guy walks up, baby in sling on chest.
"Is this the playground company?"
Yes, can I help you?
"Do they have a catalog?"
No, we don't since most of our business is from our website or email. But I'd be more than happy to help you.
"Do you work here?"
I'm co-owner with my spouse. (Who just happened to be walking behind us, 'airing out' our dog after a well-needed bath....)
Hey, he lit right up. Interested in a 'natural playset' (our specialty)....his spouse and the 3 other children came over in a few minutes, having met the dog and spouse...).
"If you visit our website, I'm positive you'll see what we've done and find something you'll know the kids will love. We're not inexpensive, but you will get exactly what you want."
Now, I'm not what I consider a salesman.
But....like audio equipment, our 'product' sells itself. Or it doesn't.
If you want something from Sams' or Home Depot, you'll go there.
But I refuse to treat anyone like I've been subject to in 'hi end' B&M stores....
Spouse and I walked into a 4 star hotel in S.F. covered in plaster dust after demo'ing walls in our house.
We were in a room within 10 minutes.
Now....that's Service. |
The main reason that Echo Audio in Portland is my favorite audio dealer is that they are always very responsive to all the questions I have, whether it's about a $25 dollar headshell, or something costing thousands. I've been talked out of making purchases, and I've been treated the same as other customers that were clearly "high rollers". No question has ever been "dumb" (even when they were). More than once, Kurt has invited me to just sit and listen with him to some of the high end systems they've put together, knowing that they were out of my price range. If he was trying to make a sale, I couldn't tell. It seemed more like he was one of us, showing off his latest system. He loves listening and freely shares his experience and enthusiasm and is never high pressure or snobby. |
poor as piss and potato rinds all my life but Kevin at Upscale has never $teered me wrong 20 yrs + |
@stereo5 I know that place in Framingham, MA all too well. About 2 maybe 3 yrs back went there to buy, yes to but a pr of Vivid Giya speakers they had as demos walked in and asked to see and have a quick listen. Guy points me to main back room and never followed up. The speakers were stacked way in the back, salesman never came back and after 20 plus minutes I walked out. No one really cared there. Never gone back don't know how they have survived. |
Herbie Hancock went to the Ford dealership just to see a car his friend told him of. The car was the new 289 Cobra. The salesman seeing a young black man wearing a t-shirt and jeans, said "that car is too expensive for you" or similar. Little did he know Herbie had been in the studio recording with Miles!! Also, he made recently made some good bucks from Watermellon Man. So... Herbie came back the next day with cash just to show the guy up!! He now hold's the record for the longest original owner of an original Cobra!! True story. |
@rushfan71 I also called a speaker manufacturer once with questions about some of his products. He also sounded as if he didn’t want to be bothered and answering my questions was the LAST thing on Earth he wanted to do.
AND he has speakers that look like they have many tweeters... So interesting indeed. |
@jerbeast said: I've been lucky enough through patience and being a thrifty shopper (ok, cheap m*f*), to put together a decent system, and try to improve it as I can. I think that makes you a true audiophile — because you love sound/music enough to struggle to achieve it. Anyone can throw money at gear and anyone can sell to such people. The "love" root of audiophile is completely missing from those transactions. @brownsfan said: "borderline rude treatment in my experience seems to hinge more on being recognized as audiophile cogniscenti than looking like a fountain of cash." That's exactly right. I have provided plenty of evidence that I am learning the terms of the audio arena and learning to listen; I'm not throwing around terms like a neophyte, but rather trying to make discriminations that will matter. That has probably soured these folks on me. And agree — the AG forum — especially several key members — has taught me a lot. More important, they have put up with my questions and my need for clarification. The Harley book was one of the best suggestions anyone made, and I bought and read most of it as soon as I could. But this does not endear me to the audio store. @stereo5 I wonder if you ever bumped into my cousin Hillary who lived in Northampton and was an audiophile. Would have been back in the 1980's. He had big Maggies and a sweet Denon turntable. If so, please P.M. me. @gator899 That's a great story. It seems obvious that someone merely entering the store — no matter what their ability to spend — has already indicated 1000 times more interest than everyone else. Why that is not seen as a starting point is beyond me. |
Maybe try putting snooty salespeople on the defense from the Get-Go.
When they ask...
"May/or (how can) I help you?
Reply...
"Yes, you can go away and leave me alone."
Just a thought.
DeKay |
gator, that is a great example of a conscientious salesperson. Many work a job for eight hours with much free time in between. They are there anyway. Use each "sales" opportunity as practice for perfection, even if a sale is not made. The well treated costumer will then remember that experience positively. Win-win! |
First time poster and this story isn't audio specific but it fits with the customer service subject. Anyhow, here's how its should be done...when I was 15 my sightly older cousin and I happened into a high end men's clothing store in our home town. Now, based on my families situation most of my clothes at the time were from K-Mart, Sears and JC Penny. Not dogging those stores but it wasn't the type of clothes I was seeing at the men's store. The owner upon hearing the door chime came out from the backroom and introduced himself and invited us to take our time and look around. What the heck! So we did. The price of the first shirt I looked nearly knocked me to the ground. Dang, it would take me a year and half of recycling my Dad's beer cans to afford one shirt! At the end of our visit, the owner, who had returned to the back room as we browsed, came out and asked if we had any questions. We did and he graciously answered them. Then I mentioned I could never afford to buy any clothes in his shop. He chuckled and said, "most kids your age couldn't but someday you might just be able to afford a shirt or a pair a pants or coat from me and I hope the day you can you come back and visit my store". Well, after earning my first true paycheck where do you think I went to purchase a new get-up? That's a great shop owner/businessman who see's the whole picture. I learned a huge lesson from this man that I use to this day. And yes after 26 years he still gets a few dollars out the pants he's sold me through the years!
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The biz is full of irony. You pull up in something like a Camry and the salesman judges you as a poor chump, yet he drives home in a screeching Kia.
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@audioguy85,
Spearit Sound was in Northampton, MA. It’s about 100 miles north west of Boston. |
Shout out to Audio Concepts in Dallas. I am not a big spender but they treat me great, which is partly due to me not wasting their time.
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It has been a mixed bag of experiences with me. I've had some iffy encounters with B&M stores, but borderline rude treatment in my experience seems to hinge more on being recognized as audiophile cogniscenti than looking like a fountain of cash. I've seen attitudes completely change with a few words indicating my next purchase wasn't going to be just a cool looking bobble used to impress my friends. However, I've largely moved on from B&M stores at this point. I get better guidance from the AG forum than I ever got from a salesman. Don't need them anymore. They are more trouble than they are worth, and the savings associated with buying used or the direct to customer model is too compelling to ignore. |
I've haunted this forum for some time for the great advice and insight, but I've felt intimidated from joining the conversations for just that reason. Not all of us have the money to throw around that some of the members have. I've been lucky enough through patience and being a thrifty shopper (ok, cheap m*f*), to put together a decent system, and try to improve it as I can. I've managed to get a Gryphon Elektra pre-amp from Goodwill, just needed to make my own cables to link the power supply and main unit. I've almost gotten my McIntosh MC275, also a Goodwill purchase, restored. I'm in the process of restoring an Oracle Delphi Mk1. All too cheap for most of these salespeople to even look at me. I've found there is much nose-turning in this hobby, but questing for truer sound reproduction shouldn't be a class or budget thing. |
"Did you ever feel like the whole world is a tuxedo and you are a pair of brown shoes"? - George Gobel |
@audioguy85. Boy does that bring back memories. |
As a former owner of audio stores, I can vouch for the absolute stupidity of some in the business of audio retail.
Not only for the rudeness stand point, but the total dismissal of future business because your nose is in the stratosphere while your brain is in a tire rut, is certifiable lunacy. |
Back in 1977 I went to Lyric HiFi in NYC to buy a Dynavector 20B mc cartridge. I wasn't allowed into the store! I had to wait in the foyer while the cartridge was brought to me (factory-sealed) and I paid with cash! That was my first visit to Lyric (run by Mike Kay). My second visit several years later was even worse (posted a few years ago)!
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@fdroadrunner I love your story. Especially in the age of the internet, you can never know the difference between a "local" and "regular." It makes sense this happened in Omaha, where I’d expect people to be nicer than they might be in, say, New York (where I’m from, so I know). But as MillerCarbon points out, money can change even nice Seattle folks into keepers of dens of privilege.
@Rushfan71 I have also had good dealings with Brent Jessee about tubes and was surprised to get a nice notes back quickly from Don Sachs, Kara at DeHavilland, Quicksilver, and Vandersteen himself. Some of these sell direct, so you can almost expect that direct response (still, they deserve credit). Others sell through dealers and yet there they are — keeping friendly dialogue going. These folks all know that the audio community is not *that* large, that these are often passed down, and that folks talk to one another.
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Let me add examples of my experience, and I'll tell you, how I am treated by a business means whether or not they get my money.
When I call Vintage tube services and talk directly to Andy or I call Brent Jesse Audio recording and speak to Brent (both NOS tube retailers) they take their time with me. They are polite and very helpful. They both are happy to answer all my questions so I can make an informed decision and that is why I continue to give them my money.
When I called a speaker manufacturer, here in the U.S., about some upgrades that he offers to the speakers they sell I spoke to the owner and I was treated like he couldn't be bothered. His attitude was horrible. It was his product, you would think he would be proud to discuss any questions I had about them. I can't imagine wanting people to buy my products and me treating them like that.
What he didn't know was, I was asking because I was planning on buying a pair of speakers further up the line from the ones I already owned, from his company. My plan was to give my current speakers to my nephew.
I'm glad that the speakers I was going to hand down were purchased used, and because of how he treated me, I will never give his company a dime of my money regardless of how many tweeters his speakers have!
Moral of the story is you never know who you're talking to and what means they have. So when you mistreat people you may never find out.
John |
Boy I miss the Tech HiFi back in the day....and also Spearit Sound in Boston....those were the days.... |
Let’s add another good story to the mix:
I am what I would charitably call a thrifty audiophile who almost always buys used; the key pieces in my system are a 55-year-old Mac preamp and 35-year-old Cornwalls. A couple years ago, I was in Omaha and stopped into Absolute Sound just to check it out. My wife and three young kids were with me (we were in the city for one of the kids to play a football game). I’d never been there before and clearly had the look of someone who was doing a good job to keep making payments on the minivan I pulled up in, but the family and I were treated with kindness and respect; they even auditioned what had to be a half-million dollar system for all of us for more than a half hour. I ended buying about $50 of speaker wire, but I never felt like I was wasting the salesman’s time at all.
I’ve since returned to upgrade my wire and interconnects with entry-level products, but again, I never felt like anything but a valued customer.
If my youngest ever makes good on his dreams of being in the NFL and he wants to buy his old man some new stereo gear, guess where we’re going? |
@fuzztone I only used the phrase "your dealer" in a weak sense — in the sense that they are local, carry gear of interest, not a lot of alternatives for try out. I’ve lived places where we said "our supermarket" because it was one of the only alternatives nearby. We didn’t like it much, but it was "our" market. But I hear you about "direct." I bought my DAC direct and am dealing direct for speakers, most likely. Thing is, I don’t object to dealer markup if I’m getting something for that. But in this case, it *subtracts* from the exchange in both money and respect. @chorus "The retailer offering home automation, theatre, lighting and security combo is the new survivor." That’s exactly right. There are at least three dealers of good stuff here that are now mainly this. They still have good gear, but they’re mainly installing Push Buttons for Busy Executives. That said, at least one of them (the Totem dealer) was super helpful and good with my tryout visit there. I may go back to hear more. Problem is their gear is limited and aimed at super rich houses who want "elegant" looking gear (e.g. Burmester). So I can’t really hear more than 1 thing there. @decooney You’re exactly right. This is my ticket to shop elsewhere. They carry Dynaudio and I’m intrigued by Dynaudio, I won’t lie. But others sell Dynaudio, too. Hell, some are even on Agon. |
Unfortunately, I would have to add a "Yes" to the count. I had sold my old system (mostly Linn and Naim stuff, but with Fried Speakers...I miss them the most!) a while ago and wanted to get back into throwing my retirement money at audio equipment. I had just retired and moved and found a cute little audio shop near the center of town. When I walked in and told them I wanted to re-enter the hobby, I told them what I wanted and could spend (I knew I had to keep it under $2000 to avoid a divorce). Knowing that would mean that I would have to upgrade soon, they could have sold me a nice little system to meet my budget, but instead quoted me a McIntosh MTI100 and B&W 705 speakers. They "threw in the stands" for me. Total cost with wires, etc. was over $10,000 more than my budget! I went out and found a record store that sells used vintage stuff, and started there. It's all been replaced, but it was fun and a lot less costly (both in the wallet and peace-at-home). And I still have no idea why McIntosh would put tubes right next to the tonearm...just sayin'! |
I can't believe some of the stories I'm reading here.
@wideload ... Wow. Sickening. |
There are other professional dealers who respect and enjoy to earn your business. The smart ones know referrals and return business is everything in today's world of the internet and online forums like this.
@hilde45
Your local dealer just gave you a pass to take your money elsewhere. It happens and it was theirs to lose. They lost and another dealer will gladly earn your business - and do a better job helping you to select the right speakers for your cool new Quicksilver Mono 60 tube amplifiers! |
The only "Survivors" in today's retail world will be those who
understand how to forge a relationship with a customer.
That means most hourly or commission help are eliminated
as the principle of treating everyone equally is not taught
or valued as viable any longer.
The retailer offering home automation, theatre, lighting and security combo is the new survivor. Limited knowledge of high end audio should be expected from the store.
Covid is going to take down many of the few existing hifi retailers.
I hope I am wrong but...
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No never. It sounds like an inferiority complex. Every dealer I've ever purchased from when I started out exhibited mutual respect. Now I usually buy direct and every builder I've dealt with is cool.
hilde45 how could anyone possibly be "your" dealer if not?
I cannot grasp the concept. |
Definitive Audio in Seattle, and Bellevue, specializes in making you feel they are doing you a favor to take money from one so unworthy. No, wait, that's not fair. That's the way they were when it was just Microsoft. They make you feel unworthy even to call for an appointment time to give them your money. No, that's not quite right either. That's the way they were when Amazon came. They make you feel you should be groveling in thanks to live even one moment in a world so perfect as to include the existence of Definitive Audio. Yeah. That's it. Full on Goolag. |
It's been a long time since I've bought something in a shop, besides a few records. I usually order direct, because my local dealers are not carrying what I'm interested in; not that I wasn't looking to buy in their shop, but I never seem to hear anything that wows me enough to buy. I have been herded into the "budget" speaker room and told that I WILL walk out with this or that speaker because it will blow me away, but it never does. I have been offered the service of a shop building me a $50,000 system before they even knew why I was there. I don't care any more; I just buy elsewhere. |
I think that people/businesses/sales associate don't know they suck until someone tells them they suck. I will never forget about 12 years ago a nurse came up to me and said "Do you know that you have been a real ahole lately!". Changed my outlook completely. When I find myself falling back to that demeanor, I remind myself what she said. My point is speak your mind and move on. The dealers can correct or not. If they don't treat you well, so be it. It is their loss, not yours. I'm sure someone else out there would be happy to have your business. |
Funny how you can tell when someone is in sales, or their SIL, Son, brother someone they know is in sales..
The customer has the money... They may not always be right, but a good salesperson, can always, suggest. Made up minds, are money in the bank. Right? Ask one question... Is this what you want?... NOT NEED!
WANT!! Half the time the person will say, "if I had the money" la-te-da.
or NO, "this is what I want, or can afford"
BUT not even ask a question.. LOL c'est la vie.....
Take my gold elsewhere....
Regards... |
@gs5556 they know I’m interested because I’ve auditioned their speakers before AND I bought other gear. But your point is well taken and it makes sense. On the other hand, why would it be a waste of time to try? Isn’t that what “sales” is all about? Maybe they’re already *too* successful? I don’t think that’s it...
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