Equal $$ for Phono OR Streaming?

I recently made the decision to say goodbye to my vinyl. I have over 1000 lp’s and will keep about 75. If your friend has made the decision to go analog I have an interesting collection that will soon be sold.

@hilde45

in my experience i have come to believe excellent streaming can be achieved at about 50-60% of the cost of a phono front end of equivalent quality (including the critical phono stages, cost are as paid, generally bought second hand)

i will use my own case in the front ends of my 2 systems (which i built for performance but with attention to value as well) to illustrate...

streaming 1: bluesound node 2i to sonnet morpheus dac or audio mirror tubador ($3500 cost including cables)
phono 1: well tempered labs amadeus/ps/dynavector tkr to ayre p5xe on townshend platform (~$6500 cost)

streaming 2: bluesound node 2i or w4s-modded sonos port to mhdt orchid w nos tube/adapter (~$2100 including cables)
phono 2: oracle delphi 2 tt/ps/origin live silver/benz glider to lehmann decade on townshend platform (~$4300)

key points:

1) phono front end does not include add’l paraphenalia like tt cover, stylus force gauge, feikert/mint alignment tools, strobe, anti static/zerostat, onbow, okki nokki cleaner etc etc... at least $1500 more there...

2) then, the record collection, if you don’t already have one will cost thousands to build!!! .... versus $200-300 a year for a lossless streaming service (or 2), a mere pittance...

3) while playing records is fun and a lovely ritual, i honestly enjoy streaming at least as much as playing records... and i enjoy the sound quality equally

4) note for $6 grand in second examples... you can have BOTH streaming and phono front ends...

hope this helps

I’m a vinyl guy, and I happen to think the very highest levels of check-the-box / by-the-book sound quality, plus enchantment, plus wow factor, are monopolized by vinyl.  But I enjoy digital 20% of the time and I’ve spent time and money going through several DACs.  With that backdrop, if I were your friend, I would buy a PS Audio Directstream, or a HoloAudio May, and assign himself the vinyl path as the step after that.  I just think it’s very hard to beat those DACs with vinyl for under $10-15k.  Cart + tonearm + table + phonostage + LPs is expensive all at once, and better approached iteratively.  And, that’s part of the charm of the analog hobby.  In contrast, you can jump straight to excellent sound with a DAC.  Once his vinyl side betters his digital (and that may take some trial and error, and it may be a few cartridges down the road), he’ll know he’s successfully gotten to the next ladder rung.  I’m jealous of him, in the same way I’m jealous that my wife hasn’t started The Wire yet.   

However, digital also must be done right, it is just much easier. Streamer should be first rate, you won't find serious dac for a few hundred dollars, cables are also important, as are power cords. 

Lol, you can be both a collector (of lp’s) and enjoy! Analog is well worth the effort and expense.

I’ve been an audiophile since about 1972, with a Dual 1215S/Shure M91E/Sansui 2000x/Advents and went up the chain to Audio Research, C-J, Dahlquists, etc. Vinyl all the way, until the last 15 months or so. Aurender N100H+ Schiit Yggdrasil GS for about $4300 new blows away my vinyl, sorry. And, I am easily able to discover new music and remasters of the music I know. I am working my way through the marvelous Betty Boards recordings of the Grateful Dead on high res Tidal, no way I could do that with vinyl. Starting with the Bluesound Node is not a bad idea, especially as the controlling software is so bulletproof 

I'd add, if it hasn't been added already, that listening habits have a big impact on what will be a satisfying listening experience for a given individual.

You cannot approach analog sound with streaming if you play music at a volume and with a level of attention that I would characterize as "true audiophile." But if you want to play music at lower volumes while you're involved in other, perhaps more engaging (for your friend) activities, then I'd say spend a few hundred on a decent DAC and use the rest on something more important.

IOW - analog is really for people who are pretty serious about the hobby. If you're friend is serious that's absolutely the way to go. If he decides ultimately he's not all that serious then he's probably more mentally healthy than the rest of us and might find that the money is better spent on something that brings him more joy.

It is a strong word, I have no regrets of having used it. But this thread is not about this debate.
If the man wants to embark on the analogue journey he will have my full support. But it must be done right or there will be more disappointment than satisfaction. Digital has been improving so perhaps it will do in this case, I can’t know. I play analogue whenever I can, the rest has to be digital. So yes, having both is best.

To avoid the which is better debate, I am trying to delimit it to his price range for the central gear. As I said, he's open to buying records, the rituals, etc. He wants to know what core gear is capable of within the $4-6k limits.

Well then give him the info: Decware ZP3, Benz Glider (medium output), any $3k turntable. Any. Grand total under $6k. Done.
The guy has a pretty nice amp and speakers. If he gets digital he will think it sounds pretty good. With Decware and Glider he will think why did I wait so long this is incredible where can I find more records???!

That’s what it is capable of. $6k worth of analog like is a game changer. Oh, and one other thing you might want to mention to your friend. Five years from now, when he gets the urge to upgrade, depending on what analog gear he got it will be worth about what he paid for it. But if he buys digital, sorry, does not matter what he bought, darn near worthless at that point.

A sad reality we all know, but he more than likely does not. Every five or ten years digital becomes worthless, probably because that is how long it takes people to get over the cognitive dissonance of having spent six large on crap. Hold onto a turntable long enough, darn thing may actually go up. Some people hate to even acknowledge this, but it is true. You want to be a real friend, you will warn him off crap and into quality.

If you got the amp model right it already contains a MM phono section (is it any good?).

He could easily do both with a budget of $4-$6K if streaming is not high ticket for decent/good quality (know ZIP about streaming).

My vintage TT/arm isn't crap and cost around $200/used 20 years ago (might sell for 5+ times that now).

Gobs of new/highly reviewed TT's available (Technics, Rega et cetera) well within the stated budget.

Hopefully he will not require an "isolation table" for the deck, LOL.

Streaming could be used for convenience and for finding new hard copy source material (AKA music).

DeKay

Right, I heard him make that comment about the superiority (to him) of analog, and I know there are people on both sides of this question.

To avoid the which is better debate, I am trying to delimit it to his price range for the central gear. As I said, he's open to buying records, the rituals, etc. He wants to know what core gear is capable of within the $4-6k limits.

“I hate digital and use only when there is no other way.”

@inna

I respect your choice but don’t you think ‘hate’ is a strong word or did you just get carried away? 

He could have both. Get a digital front end and run it through a vinyl effects plugin when he's feeling nostalgic. 

IMHO,
Streaming is going to catch up to analog in the near future.- Just like photography 20 years ago when digital started. Now we have 100mp cameras that out-resolve even large format film.
Add to that, having a complete music library at your fingertips, and not having to change sides every 30 minutes or so. And, no pops and ticks.

I do not denigrate vinyl lovers, I do think vinyl has a number of desirable characteristics, but I think technology will ultimately render this form of playback less relevant.
Bob

As others said, $6k on analogue is not much, especially considering cost of records, cleaning machine etc., though one can get an excellent sound within this price range. How many records would he buy and where ? Cost of them will vary from $1 to...sky is the limit. Let's say, $25 on average unless you want best pressings.
Analogue world is quite expensive and you have to be part of it if you go into this. It is not push the button double click and listen thing.
I would suggest starting with digital. I can't believe I said it because I hate digital and use only when there is no other way.

@lal
I need to double check models, but he has, I think, MA352 Integrated and Spendor D7s.

@hilde45

35:30, "You're going to have to spend more $$$ to get great analog". But @ 34:25 he says that in the tests done most all liked analog better. This has been my experience also. The analog chain consists of the turntable, arm, cartridge & phono preamp. Each one is important. IMO, the phono preamp is as important as the TT & arm. I've heard others say that a good arm will make a less expensive cartridge sound better. I can understand that. But that is still 3 major influences you have to purchase along with the IC's to connect them. It will eat up $6k pretty quickly IMO.

Then there is the vinyl ritual. It used to be said that if you don't like this ritual,  you should not get into vinyl. Cleaning machine & fluids, plus sleeves have not been addressed. Again, I prefer the vinyl sound but it is not as convenient nor as inexpensive. As he said in the podcast, buy both if you can. That's what I did and I would not change that.

“If equivalent means sounds the same, then you would try and find a cartridge/phono stage combination with edge, grain, glare, hyped top end sterile midrange and anemic bass that sounds the same as streaming. ”

@millercarbon,
I needed a good laugh, thanks for your post 😂

Oh well then my suggestion will totally do it.  

When it comes to "equivalent" the problem there is the meaning of "equivalent". A road well-traveled. If equivalent means sounds the same, then you would try and find a cartridge/phono stage combination with edge, grain, glare, hyped top end sterile midrange and anemic bass that sounds the same as streaming. This believe it or not can be done! Start with a Rega, add AudioTechnica, throw in a solid state phono stage. 

You see where this is going? It is not so much "equivalent" as "what you like". The stuff I recommended, it will draw you in, enthrall, mesmerize. But it will in no way, shape or form be "equivalent" to digital. Not if equivalent means sounds the same. 

Sorry to have to explain but the quality of analog is so off the charts compared to streaming that to even ask about "equivalent" calls for a whole lot of clarification. Its like asking, what would be the equivalent car to a motorcycle? What do you mean? 0-60? Top speed? Bugs on the face vs the windshield? See what I mean?

@millercarbon No change of meaning. I said he "wants to finish out the main elements of the system" and has "$4-6k to spend...on either a phono stage/TT combo OR a DAC/streamer combo." The qualifier "excluding" was meant to convey that the core of the decision for him excludes the other elements -- records, streaming services, etc. I'm glad you grasped that because your suggestion is specific and useful. And "vastly superior" sounds, um, vastly superior.

In the OP your friend had $4k to $6k to spend. Now it changes to "excluding cost" which is fine. Either way, even at the original $4 to 6k if what he wants is sound quality this is easy. 

Buy the Decware ZP3, fabulous phono stage for $1300. Buy something like a Benz Glider with .7mV output so you don't need the SUT. This brings him to about $2k.

At this point he has a cart and phono stage that will make just about any turntable sound great. All he needs is a table with arm and built-in phono lead. To avoid having to spend money on a phono interconnect. He can spend the rest of his budget, $2k, $4k or whatever, on a great turntable. All kinds of options there. 

And there you go. Done. Not hard at all.   

Only problem, it will not be "roughly equivalent." It will be "vastly superior." I hope your friend will be okay with that?

“this is a question about what-it-would-take to reach a roughly equivalent sonic outcome using the competing hardware.”

@hilde45, 

It would be helpful to know what speaker / amp your friend currently owns. As you know, system synergy plays an important role in component selection. 

My friend inclines towards pop, rock, classical, and jazz.

I’m hoping to keep some factors outside the core question -- excluding cost, availability of content, fussiness or convenience, etc. He has funds for those things and has time. He considers this a hobby and does not demand it necessarily be as easy as possible. So, this is a question about what-it-would-take to reach a roughly equivalent sonic outcome using the competing hardware. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Its a personal choice. Either way done right will sound great and need not cost a fortune.

If you are a music lover and do not already have a record collection, its a no brainer...go streaming.

IF you have a lot of records you want to play or just the idea of buying and playing records is the appeal.....do it.

You could even go totally nuts and do some of both...

Questions for you , does your friend have a specific music genre and particular artists he/she primarily enjoys, and are they available on vinyl and broadly so?

@hilde45,

Listening to discussion now (Thanks). Your friend is in great shape having acquired good speakers and amp. I know we are in preliminary stage of the discussion but if I were in his shoes and lean towards streaming, following players offers a simple setup and good sound to boot.

Aurender A100 - $3900
Lumin T2 - $4500
Auralic Vega G1 - $4289

Or he can take your route of Node 2i + Orchid DAC :-) And remaining dollars should go towards on room acoustics, tweaks and cables.

Regarding discussion, the best part was at 53 minute mark...measurements :-)

+1, @fuzztone

Does he want to spend his life perfecting playback and repetitive tasks?  
Or does he want to listen to music?  
As lalitik notes: There are huge differences in cost of media. Does he want to become a collector or an enjoyer?

@lalitk  Thanks. Thanks! This question got going in part by the discussion around 33:10, here: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2021/02/09/how-do-you-budget-for-your-hifi-the-occasional-podcast-ans...

“Focusing simply on the potential for sonic quality....Could he reach the same outcomes after spending on a TT, cartridge, phono stage, record cleaner, isolation table and all the other accoutrements necessary for a good phono set up as he could if he bought a good DAC, streamer, etc.?”

Great question @hilde45. The answer is YES! On a good setup, the streaming is equally satisfying if not better as Vinyl is on a good TT / phonostage.

Couple of things to keep in mind before investing into Analog. The cost of ownership far exceeds of any music formats (CD, Vinyl, Streaming). Analog requires ongoing commitment, one needs to be ready to spend money on maintenance and software (LP’s).

Aside from initial investment on Analog hardware, I have spent over $3500 in 115 LP’s in last 5 months. The cost of streaming in comparison - $62.45. A $12.49 monthly fee of streaming opens door to unlimited music, whereas one need to spend thousands to build a decent physical music library. 
Then there is simplicity factor, a one box streamer / DAC / Pre straight to amp. And you’re done! 

As to which format I prefer....I say no preference. Each format has its strength and weaknesses. I equally enjoy streaming, spinning a CD or Vinyl.

@testpilot Good answer to the question, "What should he do while waiting for answers on the forum."

He should buy a $600 Bluesound Node 2i, subscribe to streaming service and live with that combo while he contemplates his next move.