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eBay / PayPal: Beware - enough is never enough.

OK, I'm just venting here, but maybe some folks will find some useful information in this...


  • eBay's New 'system' for screwing you, uhh, I meant 'paying you'.
You've all had the emails and gone into your eBay account to accept the new system for getting paid, right?

In the old days, we could sell a pair of $4,000 speakers on eBay and the buyer could pay you and the money would be transferred to your PayPal account instantly. PayPal would dock their fees and eBay would reconcile your monthly sales and charge you fees at the end of the month based on what you sold. Not so anymore.

You sell your $4000 speakers, for which the buyer has paid, let's say $350 for shipping. Now, eBay holds on to ALL the funds, including the shipping payment, until the item is delivered!

So, you have to fund the shipping fees from your own pocket while eBay sits on YOUR money. What if you don't have the $350 and need the money the seller has paid you to fund buying the shipping labels?? Tough Luck. (how can this even be legal, never mind ethical?)
Then, what happens when UPS loses the package?? Some 'robot' at eBay arbitrarily decides that you don't get your money because their automated system indicates the item wasn't delivered. Now you have to wrangle with UPS, meanwhile, your money is sitting in eBays vaults earning them interest.

What a joke.


  • eBay screws you for NON-SHIPMENT
Here's another example of eBay screwing you - this happened to me in January.

I listed a big/heavy item, $3000 + $160 fixed rate UPS shipping

A prospective buyer contacts me to ask if he could pay for shipping through his business UPS account because he thinks he can get a better rate. Fine.

I agree, he hits 'Buy Now', and I send him an eBay invoice without shipping costs. (THIS IS BEFORE THE NEW EBAY SYSTEM WHERE THEY HOLD YOUR MONEY!)

I pack the item and contact the buyer showing photos of the packing process, supply the dimensions and weight, and request that he sends shipping labels and arranges for UPS to pick it up from my address, all as agreed prior to the sale.
A week goes by, nothing. I contact him and tell him I need to get this out of my space, can he send the labels.
After almost 3 weeks he emails me through eBay and just says 'I want a refund'. I message back and say no fric*en way. We go back and forth, he opens a dispute with eBay. I counter and also open a ticket with eBay and provide all of the correspondence and documentation, which is all sitting in my eBay messages account anyway.

A few days go by and eBay decides in his favor, removes the money from my PayPal account, and enters an invisible 'STRIKE' against my selling account for NON SHIPMENT!!! (I only found this out after speaking with an eBay customer service manager, don't even ask how long that took).

So basically I have to start over trying to sell the item as this loser couldn't get a decent shipping rate through his UPS account, and wouldn't pay the $160 that was listed with the ad. And eBay PUNISHES ME for non-shipment!
Word to the wise - Don't allow the buyer to organize shipping. Even 'local pickup' is fraught, should they just decide not to turn up.


  • PayPal Screws Sellers Under Their Seller Protection Program
Be super careful to read the small print when you sell and ship an item after being paid through PayPal, even when their system tells you that your transaction is covered by their Seller Protection Program. It isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Let me demonstrate by flipping this around and assuming the role of the BUYER to illustrate what a joke their Seller Protection Program is when you really need it the most - 

I'm a BUYER and I want to scam someone and get a nice $2000 CD Player for free. 
I pay using my PayPal account and the seller ships it to me, he thinks it's safe to ship 'cos he's qualified for PayPal's Seller Protection....ha ha.

The trick is, I need to use the credit card linked to my PayPal account to fund the transaction, using PayPal only to provide the gateway for the deception. 
The item arrives. I then file a dispute with my CC company (Not PayPal). I state on the dispute that the item received was 'NOT AS DESCRIBED' (no other wording or explanation needed). Bingo. My CC company instigates a charge-back and I've got myself a free CD Player.

Switching back to the seller's angle - 
I wake up to see that $2000 has been removed from my PayPal account pending a review. After X days, and after my complying with all documentation requests, PayPal informs me that the item I shipped was 'not as described' and that I'm NOT entitled to Seller Protection because their system excludes instances where a third-party credit card was used to fund the transaction, and where the Credit Card company authorized the charge-back!!

What, you're kidding me, right? NO. Read the terms of the seller protection program and it's clearly stated.

Also, even if the buyer uses PayPal funds from their account, you can still end up getting screwed. You MUST always enter the shipping information inside of PayPal -  a full tracking number. Always use 'adult signature' and always ship to the verified address on PayPal. If the buyer emails you after sending payment and gives you a different shipping address, send a refund and walk away. Trying to enter tracking numbers for proof of delivery retroactively after a dispute has been started, may land you in a situation where PayPal find in favor of the buyer, refund them the money from the transaction, AND, decline to reimburse you under the Seller Protection program because you didn't follow the requirements of the program post-sale. This isn't speculation. I've read many forum posts where people have shipped an item believing it safe to do so, then had the money removed from their account by PayPal following a dispute, even though the initial transaction was shown to qualify for Seller Protection at the time of sale.


  • PayPal hangs on to your refunded money for as long as they care to.
Even when a transaction between buyer and seller is harmonious, PayPal can still find a way to screw with you.

Perhaps this is a less egregious example of PayPal's utter disregard for their customers, but valid nevertheless. And a warning to those of you using a linked credit card to fund a PayPal purchase - 

(I'm in the midst of dealing with this now, outcome unknown).

I buy an item for $2000 using PayPal, funded from a linked Credit Card.
After a few weeks, the item hasn't shipped and I ask the supplier that the order be canceled and the money refunded (to PayPal). 
The seller complies with my request and I see the refund issued inside my PayPal account. 
After a few days, I log in to my Credit Card account but the refund hasn't been credited through from PayPal, so there's a $2000 charge on my account, and payment due pretty soon.

I wait a week and still nothing. I look closely at the transaction inside my PayPal account and see this -

"Refunded. Pending Until" Pending until when? It doesn't say. I open a ticket inside my PayPal account to ask how long I'm supposed to wait to get MY MONEY back. After 24 hours the ticket is responded to. The PayPal operator responds with "Please let us know your first and last name and we'll be happy to help". Remember, this is a ticket opened inside my PayPal account and after I've logged in!! They know who I am, FFS!

After 9 days of PP holding on to my refunded money, just arbitrarily and without any explanation or forecast as to when I'll receive it, my credit card payment is due. The only balance on my card is the $2000 transaction and I need to pay it to avoid interest since it's been a month since the original transaction. However - CREDIT CARD COMPANIES MAY SUSPEND YOUR ACCOUNT SHOULD A REFUNDED PAYMENT RESULT IN A POSITIVE ACCOUNT BALANCE, OR REJECT AN INCOMING TRANSACTION THAT WOULD APPLY A POSITIVE BALANCE TO YOUR ACCOUNT.

Yes, I was given this information from the CC company. It's something to do with the Patriot Act and preventing Credit Card accounts from being used erroneously to send money illegally from overseas. So, if I pay off the $2000 statement balance, then a few days later, the refund is miraculously posted from PayPal, the incoming credit MAY be rejected by my CC company. So where does it go? IN LIMBO? (Note to Catholics, you thought limbo was removed from the Catholic Catechism, but they were just messing with you, sorry). 

Remember, this is my money - the supplier refunded it. Now I'm at risk of it disappearing into some finance system's black hole because PayPal won't just refund it promptly.

Rant Over.

There are many documented examples of what little regard these companies have for the rights of the consumer (YOU HAVE FEW RIGHTS), and how little they care about anything other than growing their bottom line.

I can't believe there isn't a class-action lawsuit (multiple) against these companies. Oh, yeah, PayPal is owned by eBay, but....legally, they're two separate corporate entities. I wonder why that is, exactly.

Have a nice day!

Rooze


128x128rooze
86 responses Add your response
ozzy62's avatar
ozzy62
2,878 posts
 
This is exactly the reason I haven't sold anything on Ebay in 20 years, and only infrequently buy something there. I try to avoid at all costs.


teo_audio
2,197 posts
 
Yes, and that is the shape of the ’increasing the cash float’ game.

To make everyone else carry the complexities of their burden. The very definition of a successful middle man. Government does this all while being infected with the horrifically persistent pestilence of enterprising parasites. Where PayPal, Amazon, Walmart, and eBay (etc) are the parasites which pose as a friend and aid. The very definition of a successful parasite: it sits unrecognized, like a cancer. 

Amazon is no less the same. Big promises out front, screwing is done in the rear. Amazon hides it by putting the burden almost entirely on the sellers. The problems that people see with amazon, many times are originating with connectivity to the sellers.

Where the strangeness of the activities..as seen by the buyers... is tied to Amazon keeping all burden borne by the sellers...away from the view and notice of the buying public.

huge fortune for amazon, as they control the marketplace and space.. and the death of distribution and retail sales is created by the happiness and ease of mouse clicks for buyers, and the concurrent entering of the Amazon grist mill by the sellers -hoping for a chance to make out good.

The more I deal with amazon the more I see that this is how they are doing it.

the more the public does not see how horrifying it can be for a seller, the more that the public sees it as a happy tit to suckle on -- the more suppliers will enter the amazon system and grind themselves to death for the glory of the Bezos system that has come to be. (walmart does pretty well the same see ’the Colgate decision’ for details and a look inside)

Paypal is seemingly trying to re-invent itself with putting the burden on the sellers, as Amazon has so successfully done. at the same time that PayPal tries to turn the sellers into their cash float. That way they can avoid the trap set by their agreements with the credit card companies.... and turn the cash float game played by the credit card companies..into paypal’s cash float, instead.

Where the people involved remain the cow in any given circumstance and always carry the burden of it all.

It seems like the future will be a downturn compared to the quality and transparency (in all of this) that exists today.

Think about it. Where is it going? Toward integrated ’superfunctions’, like Amazon.
jayrossi13's avatar
jayrossi13
182 posts
 
eBay used to be a great place to buy and sell items. They are, however, making is very difficult/cost prohibitive for individuals to sell on their platform. Seems like they want to be more like Amazon and less like a global flea market. 

PayPal Dispute Tip:
As a buyer, anytime I have an issue with a purchase I circumvent PayPal and dispute the charge with my credit card company. Amex will resolve the problem immediately. If you use PayPal's dispute resolution process you'll get the run around from PayPal for a month. 


czbbcl's avatar
czbbcl
1,752 posts
 
My account is around 20 years old with 100% feedback and it used to be fun to transact on ebay but not anymore. I haven't had many transactions lately but decided to start selling again as I would like to clear out some things. But this new policy has made it to frustrating to deal with so I am done. I have sold a couple of things on Craig's list and Facebook Market Place and will continue to do so as well as US Audio and Audiogon with no issues.
teo_audio
2,197 posts
 
check and see if there are international borders involved in the deals where the monies are held.

Or the recipient may have a shady history that only PayPal and eBay can see.

Just a thought.

Another thought is that companies make money not just by how much profit percentage they ’receive’ but how much money passes through their hands.

and that their new policies are creating situations where your credit and finances are being used to create a multi-billion dollar cash float, so you can finance their daily activities.

In effect, they re making the credit card companies and you, the users of the system, carry their cash float burden.

It’s similar to the credit card companies playing stock trading games (or whatever) with the ’float’ they create with the holds on accounts for credit card gas purchases and credit card usage for hotel rooms and the like. Those holds (back when lots of travel was going on) were a source of REAL funds, where your expressed credit, in the system.. was/is used as a cash float for playing the markets.

As those moneys, those room deposits and those cash holds at the gas pump, and so on...are technically cash ---that you signed for and put in someone else’s hands. To hold, just for a few days. Where they take it out and play with it. It’s a constantly rolling fund but it maintains a certain minimum size. And it’s a big big fund.
badger_erich's avatar
badger_erich
128 posts
 
PayPal is worthless in terms of refunds from purchases. I started a support thread on PayPal when I was stiffed on a pair of shoes. It was only $50 but the company (Pearlgo) screws people all of the time. There is a lengthy thread on it after many. many others have had the same experience. PayPal would not issue me a refund so I went through my Credit Card company and got it from them. I try to only use PayPal for small person to person purchases as well as through legitimate vendors (stores). Anything else I wont use them.
dwhess's avatar
dwhess
72 posts
 
I have over 900 transactions with a 100% feedback rating. I'm not aware of any major changes to the eBay policy, maybe I should be.  ***My advice...KEEP IT SIMPLE.  I've been asked if I will accept various methods of payment.  I reply, " I will accept a dirty napkin, WHEN IT CLEARS, I send the item.  Regarding PayPal I have a separate checking account I only use for PayPay & eBay.  When I'm paid, I transfer the money from my PayPal account to that checking account and then to my savings account that PayPal nor eBay has no control over.  When all is well, I ship the item.  No acceptions. 
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
580 posts
 
@fbgbill Thanks for bringing this up. I don't know what the policy is for this and why some payouts are made before delivery and others are held, potentially for several weeks after delivery has been made.
I've looked through all of the stuff they sent me and I can't see anything that explains this policy clearly. If one is expecting to be paid immediately, then waiting until after a sale is made is not the best time to tell a person that their funds are being held for up to a month! In my case, I cancelled a sale, so it impacted the buyer too.

Is it based on a dollar value, the length of the sellers' account, their trading record, or some other formula? My account is 6 years old and my feedback rating is 100%. I've completed several transactions in the multiple $1000 range both as a buyer and seller.

It's all too weird. 
fbgbill's avatar
fbgbill
294 posts
 
I just sold several photography items. I have been paid through the new payment system for my last two items and one of the has clearly not been delivered. I guess I am confused when some folks say that they are not getting paid by ebay till the item is delivered. 
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
580 posts
 
@czbbcl Yes, that's the thing that tipped me over the edge, the fact that they hold the funds. (My bank account was already linked).
Now, if they released the funds paid by the buyer for shipping, so the seller could actually have funds from the transaction to pay for shipping, then that would be more acceptable. But to hold ALL the funds, including shipping charges....I can't believe that's even legal, to be honest.

Also, they showed an estimated future date for releasing the funds which doesn't coincide with the item being delivered. On the sale I made on Tuesday 18th May, my account is set for 2-day handling time and the buyer was in Texas, so with Ground service, it should have been delivered by 27th May, give or take a day. But the estimated date they showed for payout was June 17th. So they want to hold on to my money for a whole month from the order date, why??

Anyway, I'm done with selling anything over 50 bucks on eBay. 
czbbcl's avatar
czbbcl
1,752 posts
 
I am done with ebay as they want me to link my bank account with my ebay account. NOT HAPPENING done with them. Sold a camera on ebay recently and they won't release the funds until I link my bank account and ship the item. 
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
580 posts
 
Wow. It seems some of you guys have really been shafted.
Please note- though I’ve had a lot of stress, extra work and inconvenience, thus far I haven’t actually lost anything other than my time and some hair. The point of my post was to draw people’s attention to some of the ‘loopholes’ one can easily encounter when trying to make a claim or  complete an agreed upon transaction via one of these portals. As for the joker above who accused me of not being transparent, really? You think I spent an hour writing a post... for what purpose exactly, to screw with people here perhaps? 
Anyway, I’m sure that 95% of people have ongoing positive experiences with eBay/PayPal, I’m just highlighting that it can go wrong and it does go wrong and that you’re not always protected against scam deals when you think you’re being protected by their policies.


rifraf4u
31 posts
 
OP, I feel your pain. I had a similar situation happen to me several years ago. I sold a $30,000 boat on eBay, and took a $5000 deposit via PayPal, rest by bank check. Buyer inspects the boat, takes delivery, pays me the balance via bank check. The f’r then turns around and disputes the $5000 with his credit card company. This is why paypal changed the rules....because they can’t afford to be on the wrong side of the credit card companies. so now PayPal wants its 5k back from me and threatens legal action. I have no recourse with the credit card company, don’t even know who it is. 
I took the f’r to small claims court which took like a year. He finally settled for 1/2 after two rescheduled court dates. I never paid PayPal tho ;-) F em. Never have used them since. This whole ordeal took a great deal of my valuable time.....
artemus_5's avatar
artemus_5
1,917 posts
 
@ clearthinker

BINGO. Customer service is no longer available. Companies set up everything for their convenience (& profit). Customer is just a bank account to drain. This is our world today where the big corps have become mostly monopolies, IE early 1900's. Difference now is they have the govt in their hip pocket.

clearthinker's avatar
clearthinker
1,582 posts
 
50 years ago most big companies treated customers fairly most of the time.
Now most big companies cheat their customers most of the time.
For a big company it seems honesty is not the best policy.

The only way to redress this is to vote with our feet.
jl1ny's avatar
jl1ny
398 posts
 
Screw eBay and PayPal, I rarely use either anymore. I was was reading another thread on how they both will start issuing 1099’s in 2022 (23?) for sales in excess of $600...they can go KMA.
panzrwagn's avatar
panzrwagn
459 posts
 
I've been fighting with PayPal for over 5 months on a refund issued after the buyer received the goods. I even have a letter from eBay stating the refund was not initiated on their end, as PayPal claimed. Meanwhile the buyer has the merchandise and I'm out over $2,000. PayPal claims their 'investigation' shows nothing unusual, and that I should take it up with the buyer. 

Actually I'm going to take it up with the State Attorney General and since it's interstate fraud, the FBI. Simply answering the inquiries from the authorities will cost PayPal a lot more than just doing the right thing. And if a pattern of this kind of behavior shows up, which is not unlikely, they will have a much bigger problem on their hands.
z32kerber
143 posts
 
So what are the alternatives?
daj
87 posts
 
They make more from buyers than sellers, so in their world the buyer is king. Sometimes it sucks to be a seller, but you appreciate it when you’re the buyer. Obviously it sometimes costs a seller, but I can’t imagine how much it costs Ebay annually. Sure it’s lucrative for them overall, but there have to be huge losses on their end too. I had a pair of speakers arrive in a punctured box that someone tried to hide under the shipping label. I ended up with them for free. They have to have policies and rules. Everyone can’t find them to their benefit all the time.
sid-hoff-frenchman
50 posts
 
Yeah eBay is fine for buying things as far as I’m concerned. But between the fees and the risk of being hosed by a scam buyer, it’s not worth it to me to sell on eBay anymore, and I have sold hundreds of items there over the last couple of decades. 
wturkey's avatar
wturkey
738 posts
 
rooze 

Thank you for the heads up. eBay is useful as far as buying...... sometimes. As far as selling is concerned, ouch. The seller takes a beating on fees 
gareents
62 posts
 
What you describe is not at all my experience. PayPal's system is very fair. Perhaps you are no being completely transparent.....

dill
2,470 posts
 
" Time for me to rethink the use of eBay and PayPal."
- You don't need a PayPal account to buy & sell on eBay anymore.
hbarrel's avatar
hbarrel
342 posts
 
I’ve dealt with eBay since the late 90’s. Without issue. But more and more horror stories are becoming fairly prevalent. Time for me to rethink the use of eBay and PayPal.
roadwhorerecords
260 posts
 
@rooze 
 You actually spoke to a real, live person? 😳 You lucky bastard! I tried for 3weeks and no results. I deal very little with eBay anymore.
jmbumgarner01
64 posts
 
@audioman, doesn’t that mean you ended up with the preamp and the $4k minus the shipping charges? Or did you have to reship the item to the buyer?

Lots of bad juju sounds like. Thanks for the info. 
 Glad my transactions thus far have been smooth/lucky. Maybe I will just have a stereo system in every room rather than take a chance selling stuff ha.
audioman58's avatar
audioman58
3,920 posts
 
PayPal screwed meseveral times,No more.
2 years ago I sold a preamp for $4k  he wanted 2 day shipping 
and extra packing UPS packed it cost over $360 
it was shipped , after it was shipped he decided he wanted something else and refused UPS 3 times and it was shipped back to me , pay pal said I was right , and I got the funds, with 24 hours 
they returned the $4k but stuck me with the $360 ups packing,and 
shipping fees, which was total BS. Enough is enough .
I wish Google  started doing this.
I use stripe once in a while ,but PayPal needs to go ,ebay even worse,and part of EBay.
jcarcopo's avatar
jcarcopo
501 posts
 
I've never had any issues with 100s of transactions on ebay. This isn't ebay, but you knew that already   Didn't you.

Oh, and on several occasions I've paid off my account and received a refund to my account.  Each time I've received a check in the mail when requested.  The last occurrence was for $1800. 

I love a good rant, this wasn't one of them. 
genesis777
112 posts
 
Their new payment system sucks. 
aberyclark
1,355 posts
 
What is stripe?
audioman58's avatar
audioman58
3,920 posts
 
Switch to stripe like I did , once you have done a transaction ,or two  you are good . Ebay are thief’s .
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
580 posts
 
@dill 
It happened the way I described, but not in the way you've interpreted what I've written, hence the disconnect between what happened and what you think happened.
Yes, I've been selling on eBay plenty long enough with a 100% record. Yes, I know how managed payments work, the second of my examples occurred before managed payments came into being, as I clearly stated in the post, in all-caps.

@teo_audio I suspect you're right. Incidentally, I have a 'live' transaction in the pot, order placed yesterday. eBay are holding my $3300+ payout until the shipment is delivered. They estimate payout by June 17. Are you kidding me eBay, that's almost a month. Fees on the transaction were $529
I won't play ball with these rules. I've canceled the order, instigating a refund to the buyer. I feel bad for the buyer but I won't be held to ransom by this company. I've deleted my other listings for anything of a value of $50 or higher. 

Regarding the other live issue, I spent an hour on the phone with my CC company, Wells Fargo. PayPal says they sent a refund to WF on May 11 (7/8 days ago) and that it should have taken 3-5 days to show in my WF account. Wells Fargo say there's no refund evident in the pipeline from PayPal. Wells Fargo advised that I open a claim/dispute against PayPal, which I've done. It should all hopefully be resolved within another 30 days or so. Between this that and the other, I've wasted a full day of my time.

dill
2,470 posts
 
Well, this does not happen the way you have described. Are you a new eBay member? Do you have a selling record? You made a mistake by not charging for shipping and not purchasing your shipping label through the eBay system. You get a discount. Your buyer suggesting you ship using their account is a big red flag. Never do this! You given all leverage to the buyer. If you had shipped using the eBay system, you would have the leverage. Checkout how eBay's managed payments work, they have eliminated PayPal as their payment machine. A buyer can use PayPal to buy, however a seller now has to use eBay's Managed Payments.
teo_audio
2,197 posts
 
try and find out of they are holding the funds of large merchant accounts who utilize PayPal.

I expect that they will not be doing that to the largest accounts.

If so, then it is possible to sue them for it (class action) as their policies are being applied unfairly to the smaller accounts. Suing for damages may also be possible.
Anti fair market practices and such.
middlemass
904 posts
 
Now tell us what you really think.
ebm
9,311 posts
 
WOW let's bad rap these dudes. alot its fun.
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