eBay / PayPal: Beware - enough is never enough.


OK, I'm just venting here, but maybe some folks will find some useful information in this...


  • eBay's New 'system' for screwing you, uhh, I meant 'paying you'.
You've all had the emails and gone into your eBay account to accept the new system for getting paid, right?

In the old days, we could sell a pair of $4,000 speakers on eBay and the buyer could pay you and the money would be transferred to your PayPal account instantly. PayPal would dock their fees and eBay would reconcile your monthly sales and charge you fees at the end of the month based on what you sold. Not so anymore.

You sell your $4000 speakers, for which the buyer has paid, let's say $350 for shipping. Now, eBay holds on to ALL the funds, including the shipping payment, until the item is delivered!

So, you have to fund the shipping fees from your own pocket while eBay sits on YOUR money. What if you don't have the $350 and need the money the seller has paid you to fund buying the shipping labels?? Tough Luck. (how can this even be legal, never mind ethical?)
Then, what happens when UPS loses the package?? Some 'robot' at eBay arbitrarily decides that you don't get your money because their automated system indicates the item wasn't delivered. Now you have to wrangle with UPS, meanwhile, your money is sitting in eBays vaults earning them interest.

What a joke.


  • eBay screws you for NON-SHIPMENT
Here's another example of eBay screwing you - this happened to me in January.

I listed a big/heavy item, $3000 + $160 fixed rate UPS shipping

A prospective buyer contacts me to ask if he could pay for shipping through his business UPS account because he thinks he can get a better rate. Fine.

I agree, he hits 'Buy Now', and I send him an eBay invoice without shipping costs. (THIS IS BEFORE THE NEW EBAY SYSTEM WHERE THEY HOLD YOUR MONEY!)

I pack the item and contact the buyer showing photos of the packing process, supply the dimensions and weight, and request that he sends shipping labels and arranges for UPS to pick it up from my address, all as agreed prior to the sale.
A week goes by, nothing. I contact him and tell him I need to get this out of my space, can he send the labels.
After almost 3 weeks he emails me through eBay and just says 'I want a refund'. I message back and say no fric*en way. We go back and forth, he opens a dispute with eBay. I counter and also open a ticket with eBay and provide all of the correspondence and documentation, which is all sitting in my eBay messages account anyway.

A few days go by and eBay decides in his favor, removes the money from my PayPal account, and enters an invisible 'STRIKE' against my selling account for NON SHIPMENT!!! (I only found this out after speaking with an eBay customer service manager, don't even ask how long that took).

So basically I have to start over trying to sell the item as this loser couldn't get a decent shipping rate through his UPS account, and wouldn't pay the $160 that was listed with the ad. And eBay PUNISHES ME for non-shipment!
Word to the wise - Don't allow the buyer to organize shipping. Even 'local pickup' is fraught, should they just decide not to turn up.


  • PayPal Screws Sellers Under Their Seller Protection Program
Be super careful to read the small print when you sell and ship an item after being paid through PayPal, even when their system tells you that your transaction is covered by their Seller Protection Program. It isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Let me demonstrate by flipping this around and assuming the role of the BUYER to illustrate what a joke their Seller Protection Program is when you really need it the most - 

I'm a BUYER and I want to scam someone and get a nice $2000 CD Player for free. 
I pay using my PayPal account and the seller ships it to me, he thinks it's safe to ship 'cos he's qualified for PayPal's Seller Protection....ha ha.

The trick is, I need to use the credit card linked to my PayPal account to fund the transaction, using PayPal only to provide the gateway for the deception. 
The item arrives. I then file a dispute with my CC company (Not PayPal). I state on the dispute that the item received was 'NOT AS DESCRIBED' (no other wording or explanation needed). Bingo. My CC company instigates a charge-back and I've got myself a free CD Player.

Switching back to the seller's angle - 
I wake up to see that $2000 has been removed from my PayPal account pending a review. After X days, and after my complying with all documentation requests, PayPal informs me that the item I shipped was 'not as described' and that I'm NOT entitled to Seller Protection because their system excludes instances where a third-party credit card was used to fund the transaction, and where the Credit Card company authorized the charge-back!!

What, you're kidding me, right? NO. Read the terms of the seller protection program and it's clearly stated.

Also, even if the buyer uses PayPal funds from their account, you can still end up getting screwed. You MUST always enter the shipping information inside of PayPal -  a full tracking number. Always use 'adult signature' and always ship to the verified address on PayPal. If the buyer emails you after sending payment and gives you a different shipping address, send a refund and walk away. Trying to enter tracking numbers for proof of delivery retroactively after a dispute has been started, may land you in a situation where PayPal find in favor of the buyer, refund them the money from the transaction, AND, decline to reimburse you under the Seller Protection program because you didn't follow the requirements of the program post-sale. This isn't speculation. I've read many forum posts where people have shipped an item believing it safe to do so, then had the money removed from their account by PayPal following a dispute, even though the initial transaction was shown to qualify for Seller Protection at the time of sale.


  • PayPal hangs on to your refunded money for as long as they care to.
Even when a transaction between buyer and seller is harmonious, PayPal can still find a way to screw with you.

Perhaps this is a less egregious example of PayPal's utter disregard for their customers, but valid nevertheless. And a warning to those of you using a linked credit card to fund a PayPal purchase - 

(I'm in the midst of dealing with this now, outcome unknown).

I buy an item for $2000 using PayPal, funded from a linked Credit Card.
After a few weeks, the item hasn't shipped and I ask the supplier that the order be canceled and the money refunded (to PayPal). 
The seller complies with my request and I see the refund issued inside my PayPal account. 
After a few days, I log in to my Credit Card account but the refund hasn't been credited through from PayPal, so there's a $2000 charge on my account, and payment due pretty soon.

I wait a week and still nothing. I look closely at the transaction inside my PayPal account and see this -

"Refunded. Pending Until" Pending until when? It doesn't say. I open a ticket inside my PayPal account to ask how long I'm supposed to wait to get MY MONEY back. After 24 hours the ticket is responded to. The PayPal operator responds with "Please let us know your first and last name and we'll be happy to help". Remember, this is a ticket opened inside my PayPal account and after I've logged in!! They know who I am, FFS!

After 9 days of PP holding on to my refunded money, just arbitrarily and without any explanation or forecast as to when I'll receive it, my credit card payment is due. The only balance on my card is the $2000 transaction and I need to pay it to avoid interest since it's been a month since the original transaction. However - CREDIT CARD COMPANIES MAY SUSPEND YOUR ACCOUNT SHOULD A REFUNDED PAYMENT RESULT IN A POSITIVE ACCOUNT BALANCE, OR REJECT AN INCOMING TRANSACTION THAT WOULD APPLY A POSITIVE BALANCE TO YOUR ACCOUNT.

Yes, I was given this information from the CC company. It's something to do with the Patriot Act and preventing Credit Card accounts from being used erroneously to send money illegally from overseas. So, if I pay off the $2000 statement balance, then a few days later, the refund is miraculously posted from PayPal, the incoming credit MAY be rejected by my CC company. So where does it go? IN LIMBO? (Note to Catholics, you thought limbo was removed from the Catholic Catechism, but they were just messing with you, sorry). 

Remember, this is my money - the supplier refunded it. Now I'm at risk of it disappearing into some finance system's black hole because PayPal won't just refund it promptly.

Rant Over.

There are many documented examples of what little regard these companies have for the rights of the consumer (YOU HAVE FEW RIGHTS), and how little they care about anything other than growing their bottom line.

I can't believe there isn't a class-action lawsuit (multiple) against these companies. Oh, yeah, PayPal is owned by eBay, but....legally, they're two separate corporate entities. I wonder why that is, exactly.

Have a nice day!

Rooze


rooze

Showing 9 responses by rooze

@teo_audio 
Sage words on Amazon in particular. I've been an Amazon seller for two decades and I couldn't even begin to describe the angst they create for me on an almost daily basis, it's a full-time job just trying to keep a handful of listings 'alive' in their ridiculously stupid and complex selling system.

And the level of customer service they have for sellers is beyond belief. Whenever I open a support ticket, it takes at least 3+ attempts to actually get a person to understand what I'm trying to get across. "Just READ my bloody question will you!"

And it's nothing complex on my side. I sell a branded vitamin supplement product, the same product I've sold for 20+ years. It's 'branded' in my name, I own the trademark and no other seller offers the same product on my label/sku.

A couple of years ago they de-listed all of my products for no stated reason.
After days of going back and forth with people with the loosest grasp of the English language, I was notified that my products had all been re-classified as 'pesticides'. PESTICIDES! (lol)

I sell health products from the beehive - honey, royal jelly, bee pollen, propolis. These are formulated to support the immune system, absolutely nothing to do with pesticides.

It turned out that in one of the product descriptions I'd used the word 'pesticide'. (bee pollen from Asia often contains unwanted pesticides....blah blah so always buy USA bee pollen, etc).

So their 'robot' re-classified my entire catalog as pesticides. 

Now then, you'd think it would be a simple case of contacting their customer service and explaining the issue, and having them fix it.

Nope. After six months of ongoing correspondence, I was told it could not be fixed. I couldn't just change the product description and remove the word 'pesticide'. I couldn't just delete the one product and have the remainder re-classified correctly. 

Their solution - either close your account (since non of my listings were active) or.....to continue to sell on their platform, I was told I had to sit an online course on pesticide handling and management!

Further days and weeks go by of interacting with their people and I finally give up and register for their stupid course. I then discover it's a 'timed course' and it takes a minimum of four hours to complete! As a matter of principle, I could not bring myself to do it. (and I didn't really want my health supplements to be attached in any way to a pesticides category!)

So, I deleted my Seller account, registered a new Trademark, formed a new LLC, set up new banking, created all new product labeling, opened a new Amazon seller account, went through their ridiculously convoluted Brand Registry program....etc etc. When I got to the final step, which was advertising my 'new' products through the Amazon Promotion program, their system broke again. It would not let me enter a credit card to pay for Ads in their system. It took 3 months for them to fix this simple issue, during which time my only Amazon sales originated from advertising I was doing outside of Amazon. By this time I'd pretty much run dry, mentally, and was just focusing marketing through other outlets. But it's impossible to ignore Amazon if you want high-volume sales of small-ticket items.

Anyway - sorry for another long rant/post - this has nothing to do with eBay or PayPal, but they're each as bad as the other in my experience. (Amazon, eBay, PayPal, and now Walmart). 




@dill 
It happened the way I described, but not in the way you've interpreted what I've written, hence the disconnect between what happened and what you think happened.
Yes, I've been selling on eBay plenty long enough with a 100% record. Yes, I know how managed payments work, the second of my examples occurred before managed payments came into being, as I clearly stated in the post, in all-caps.

@teo_audio I suspect you're right. Incidentally, I have a 'live' transaction in the pot, order placed yesterday. eBay are holding my $3300+ payout until the shipment is delivered. They estimate payout by June 17. Are you kidding me eBay, that's almost a month. Fees on the transaction were $529
I won't play ball with these rules. I've canceled the order, instigating a refund to the buyer. I feel bad for the buyer but I won't be held to ransom by this company. I've deleted my other listings for anything of a value of $50 or higher. 

Regarding the other live issue, I spent an hour on the phone with my CC company, Wells Fargo. PayPal says they sent a refund to WF on May 11 (7/8 days ago) and that it should have taken 3-5 days to show in my WF account. Wells Fargo say there's no refund evident in the pipeline from PayPal. Wells Fargo advised that I open a claim/dispute against PayPal, which I've done. It should all hopefully be resolved within another 30 days or so. Between this that and the other, I've wasted a full day of my time.

Wow. It seems some of you guys have really been shafted.
Please note- though I’ve had a lot of stress, extra work and inconvenience, thus far I haven’t actually lost anything other than my time and some hair. The point of my post was to draw people’s attention to some of the ‘loopholes’ one can easily encounter when trying to make a claim or  complete an agreed upon transaction via one of these portals. As for the joker above who accused me of not being transparent, really? You think I spent an hour writing a post... for what purpose exactly, to screw with people here perhaps? 
Anyway, I’m sure that 95% of people have ongoing positive experiences with eBay/PayPal, I’m just highlighting that it can go wrong and it does go wrong and that you’re not always protected against scam deals when you think you’re being protected by their policies.


@czbbcl Yes, that's the thing that tipped me over the edge, the fact that they hold the funds. (My bank account was already linked).
Now, if they released the funds paid by the buyer for shipping, so the seller could actually have funds from the transaction to pay for shipping, then that would be more acceptable. But to hold ALL the funds, including shipping charges....I can't believe that's even legal, to be honest.

Also, they showed an estimated future date for releasing the funds which doesn't coincide with the item being delivered. On the sale I made on Tuesday 18th May, my account is set for 2-day handling time and the buyer was in Texas, so with Ground service, it should have been delivered by 27th May, give or take a day. But the estimated date they showed for payout was June 17th. So they want to hold on to my money for a whole month from the order date, why??

Anyway, I'm done with selling anything over 50 bucks on eBay. 
@fbgbill Thanks for bringing this up. I don't know what the policy is for this and why some payouts are made before delivery and others are held, potentially for several weeks after delivery has been made.
I've looked through all of the stuff they sent me and I can't see anything that explains this policy clearly. If one is expecting to be paid immediately, then waiting until after a sale is made is not the best time to tell a person that their funds are being held for up to a month! In my case, I cancelled a sale, so it impacted the buyer too.

Is it based on a dollar value, the length of the sellers' account, their trading record, or some other formula? My account is 6 years old and my feedback rating is 100%. I've completed several transactions in the multiple $1000 range both as a buyer and seller.

It's all too weird. 
@lowrider57 since the new system came into being a few weeks back my funds are being held until the shipping company confirm delivery has been made to the buyer, and... possibly beyond.

Others in this thread seem to be saying that their funds have not been held, but I haven’t ascertained whether this is pre or post new system.
Someone reading the above might come to the conclusion that my particular eBay account is not in good standing. All I can say is that it’s an account I’ve used since 2015, and my feedback is 100%. Also, I’ve a history of buying and selling higher ticket price items.
Regardless, I’m done selling anything of a value of $50 or higher through eBay. This is both on the basis of them holding my money and due to their exorbitant fees. My last sale was a $3700 preamp and eBay took $530 from the sale for the privilege of screwing me around. And the fact that they also HOLD THE MONEY THE BUYER HAS PAID FOR SHIPPING, REQUIRING THE SELLER TO UPFRONT THE SHIPPING COSTS OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET.... well, I can’t understand how that’s even legal.

Here’s the email announcing the new system, there’s nothing about having funds held pending delivery. Again, the lack of transparency.

eBay is now managing payments for your account

As a reminder, eBay is now managing payments for your account, which means:

  • You get paid directly to your bank account, not your PayPal account. IMPORTANT: If you haven’t already done so, please add a bank account so you can get paid. You can add your bank account from the new Selling Overview page on My eBay. 

  • Note: You may receive a separate message to add or verify your information.

  • No more PayPal payment processing fees. No more separate monthly fee payments. You will pay an updated final value fee, consisting of a variable category-based percentage of the total amount of the sale, plus a fixed fee per order. Most sellers will pay the same or less than before.* See fee details

  • Your buyers can now pay for items they purchase from you with credit, debit, and gift cards, Apple Pay, Google Pay, PayPal, and PayPal Credit.

What’s more

  • You can access everything you need on eBay: consolidated fees, refunds, returns, and more.

  • We will automatically deduct your eBay selling fees, expenses, and costs from your earnings before you get paid. The remainder of your earnings will go directly to your bank account.

  • You can cover the costs of refunds and other charges from your bank account or credit card when your earnings are not sufficient to cover the refund amount.

  • We will initiate payouts within two business days from when the buyer pays. You may choose to receive available funds to your bank account weekly or daily, as funds are available. Learn more about payouts.


@dill

I received email notification of the sale as usual.
The email said ‘your item has been paid for, it’s safe to ship’, pretty much the same as always.
I logged in to my account and looked at the order. It showed a fancy 3-step status bar which is new. I can’t recall this exactly but it was basically- Order paid - Pending Shipping- Payout On Delivery.
There were various new links around the order detail page. One just says ‘Getting Paid’. That lead to a page explaining the new process.

Right on the order page there’s a date for estimated payout, and in my case it was June 17, 30 days from making the sale.

It shows the usual statement, listing price, shipping paid, sub total, payout amount minus fees ($530).
There’s no ambiguity here. There was a clear link from the order detail page under ‘when will I Get Paid’ and it clearly stated the hold on funds until the item is delivered.... with the anomaly that the estimated payout date was 4 weeks hence and not the 8-10 days or so it would take to process and ship from VA to TX.
It did not instruct me to create a label through eBay, only to enter the tracking number as with the previous system, it did also give me the option to buy shipping through eBay, as before.

In this instance, on being told that my funds were being held, and that the estimated release date was a month forward, I reluctantly cancelled the order and deleted all my listings of $50 or more.
Now then, it clearly states in the new eBay policy that payment will be sent within 2 days. There’s nothing I could find relating to having funds held until the shipment arrives, or longer. Clearly my account is/was treated differently than their own policy states, and I couldn’t see any reason for that. But I’m not alone, there are many forum dwellers complaining about the same thing.
What grates is that I wasn’t told prior to the sale being made that I wouldn’t get paid, potentially for a whole month. I found out post sale. They could’ve told me when creating the listing but they waited until a buyer had committed the funds. I’m not willing to have $4000 sitting in eBay’s coffers due to some invisible ruling on my account, so I canceled the order, which, of course, instigated a refund to the buyer.

Yes, I could’ve opened a ticket asking “what gives”, but have you ever dealt with these people? And it’s usually an AI answering questions of this nature which only adds to the frustration.
I’ve opted to vote with my feet. I’m just saying to others reading this thread to double check before shipping an item.
@dill 
Yes, evidently my transaction was flagged in some way, but how, exactly, and why not flag it and notify me at the time of listing, and not after a sale is made? Wouldn’t that make sense? 
It seems by doing it after a sale, they’re trying to manipulate a choice you should be entitled to make at the start of the selling process, and doing so in an entirely underhanded way. Post sale, you now have the choice of waiting for a month to get paid, having just forked over the shipping cost out of your own pocket, even though money expressly committed for shipping costs has been furnished by the buyer, or... canceling the sale. If you cancel the transaction you’re inconveniencing the buyer, I’m certain their money will float around the system for a few days before it hits their account. Also, you’re back to square one sitting on an unsold item and now looking for a new selling platform. They’re trying to give you a Hobson’s Choice and I’m basically saying “stick it”.

(for those who haven’t followed my previous comments, my eBay account was opened in 2015, I’ve a 100% feedback and have bought and sold items of a similar value to the item in question)