Downloads Versus Streaming

@curiousjim My experience has been that all streaming services are about the same. Please let us know what you find out and feel free to mention certain titles, thanks!

So earlier today, I was listening to a CD of Monster, buy Steppenwolf and was about halfway into it when I decided to se if there was a HR version on Amazon Music. There is and it sounded fantastic, but that is more the exception than the rule. I have found a lot of HR recordings that sound the same as the CD and a few that sound worse.  I plan on switching to Tidal or Qobuz and I’ll see what the buzz is all about, but I suspect there will be both good and bad recordings there as well.

The rest of the good news is it’s neither hard nor costly to do it right these days. 
 

@mapman if done right is a big if but yes, that’s a huge consideration when making a decision to purchase. 

@lalitk which is the very reason why I look at labels Qobuz and Tidal don’t have the rights to. For example Analogue Productions is releasing their remix/remaster of the Steely Dan catalogue. However, Walter and Donald already did remasters of their releases with David Geffen getting a hand in either their current or future projects and they’re already of the highest quality as you can imagine coming from those two. So the question will come down to which label is preferred. Steely Dan is available via streaming but these Analogue Production remasters will not be. Now should I get caught up in whether the rereleases are 24/96 or if they’re 16/44.1? I’ve been buying PCM and SACD hybrid CD’s for some time and I can say that many of those 16/44.1 have merit based on the quality of the remix alone not to mention the cleaning up process that’s done on them. What I’m suggesting is that younger folks might be inclined to believe that higher bit rate and resolution rules the day and I personally don’t believe that to be the case.

You never know what any individual will determine sounds better but the good news is either way should sound very good if done right. 

@lalitk 

Correct! It is not so much about the resolution but the provenance of that recording's original master. I have heard files in 16bit/44.1lHz that sounds simply amazing. For example, Shirley Horn's "Beautiful Love" or "If You Go" in 16bit/441kHz on Qobuz sounds stunning in my system.

Finally this was mentioned.  Not sure why this doesn't get brought up more in these discussions.  Provenance / mastering is everything, NOT the format or resolution (although there are merits for sure) generally speaking.  Really, its what version is one referencing (the catalog number).

There are 20 versions of say a Beatles, Zep album, whatever.  One, two or three of those versions sound excellent, the rest sound either OK, meh or absolute crap (compressed to hell). 

So when comparing a local file vs. a streamed file, it has to be apples to apples with regard to the version of said song/album.  However this can get tricky, because the streaming services don't usually provide the meta-data.  To make matters even worse, you have no control or are ever aware when the streaming file/album changes e.g. today the album might be "catalog #1 from Capitol" next month they may replace that version with a remaster (different catalog # / label) and could be worse or better.

I have streamed a song/album that sounds better than my local file version and vice versa.

Although I am streaming more (qobuz), my local library is pretty large and that won't be going away anytime soon, if ever.  I still purchase the stuff I like since the artists are getting so royally screwed by the current streaming model.

All that being said, streaming isn't going away and to get the most out of it, requires  planning and good component matching (much of which has been already stated)

@jbuhl So you've found a way for the Pi to work for you, which was something I was really interested in hearing about, thanks!

The SGC/ST like most of this stuff was an incremental bump and got things close enough to MPD that I stayed with Roon.   Roon also opens things up for sprinkling other low cost endpoints around the house like old Sonos zp90s that can be picked up for dirt cheap.   Got those endpoints in the garage and work station.   I do not stream DSD.  I no longer buy downloads due to unpredictable/unknown quality of the source.   I am at a point where I am good with red book,24/96 and  vinyl.

@jbuhl All-right, not cheap but still within reach. Does it elevate audio quality to where it's equal to MPD? Also, I'm assuming you can now play DSD files via Roon when using the Sonic Transport? To be honest and it's a long way off but I'm rather focused on the NAIM ND5 XS2 just because, I believe I could convince my local dealer to let me take one home for an audition. I'd really like to see how much of an improvement I'd hear when comparing it to the Pi.

As for Small Green Computer, these small boutique type companies just seem to keep sprouting up. It's encouraging.

Yeah a Small Green Computer Sonic Transport (SGC ST).  Runs bit calmer, way more stripped down.  Don't have to worry about all the Mac updates and baggage  that platform brings along.   Stability is rock solid as well (so far) and support is good.   Dedicated device only way to run a ROON core IMO.  Sometimes you see them on the used market.  Been really happy with mine.

@jbuhl So I take it that you bought a component from Roon or someone else that serves as the Roon Core and sounds better than your experience using a Mac computer? If so, it makes a good deal of sense to me that your experiencing better results with a component dedicated to Roon, given it's filters an other audio design properties. Which makes me wonder if it's worth spending money on a filtering device between the modem and the Pi?

Yeah, problem is that certain information about the remastering / recording process isn't usually available. Labels are not responsible in any way to be forthcoming about taking shortcuts or making compromises, you take your chances. Fortunately, where I live we have brick and mortar record stores where someone will say, 'No don't buy the later Led Zeppelin remasters because they are compressed and the remixes differ wildly from the originals'. I will say that I feel more vulnerable on Qobuz and that's why I trust when people comment about the catalogue being a mixed bag. But there are plenty of options on Qobuz for twelve dollars a month so, 'whatta ya gona do'?

@goofyfoot

I see, well in that case we make the best out of what’s available and continue the pursuit. It’s probably why I continue to buy downloads, CD’s and Vinyl.

@lalitk I don't know why you think that, the same level of compression happens on CD's and I'm guessing can occur with downloads, so my comment wouldn't indicate siding with one format or another. Compression is very real and often abused. So I'm just pointing out another possibility as to why one recording may be difficult to listen to and why another sounds great, even if it's from the same tape master.

“I come to find out also that many titles, even on major labels, are being hyper compressed. ”

@goofyfoot

Why do I get the feeling that you have already conceded to the notion that downloads will always sound superior to streaming :-)

I feel like we are on two different islands! 

I had read the same

@lalitk I come to find out also that many titles, even on major labels, are being hyper compressed. That would certainly negate any benefit from higher resolutions.

"I had made the assumption that 24/ 96 files would sound much better than 24/44.1 files but this was not the case."

@goofyfoot 

Correct! It is not so much about the resolution but the provenance of that recording's original master. I have heard files in 16bit/44.1lHz that sounds simply amazing. For example, Shirley Horn's "Beautiful Love" or "If You Go" in 16bit/441kHz on Qobuz sounds stunning in my system. 

You can take look at my "Digital" system (under my username) to see the steps I've taken to ensure optimal streaming quality vs downloads. The devils is in the details :-) 

@lalitk Thanks there's a lot on that post, probably much more than I need. I was asking for recommendations, not based on favorite music from an artistic slant but rather favorite streaming titles based on quality of sound. I have experienced what others on this post have mentioned, that many files contrast from one another in sound quality despite the file format. I had made the assumption that 24/ 96 files would sound much better than 24/44.1 files but this was not the case. Would I have a different experience if I were to do the same comparisons with other titles, other labels... I'm assuming that I would.

"What streaming titles are your favorites? "

@goofyfoot

Please follow this thread for favorites.

I downloaded a redbook CD and XRCD to the hard drive and they sound significanlty better (better imaging and details) than playing those same tracks from a CD player (Meitner MA-2, Audio Research CD9, McIntosh MCD1100).  Comparing between downloading vs. streaming, hard to judge which one is better, a toss up.

@ghdprentice That's a good point, the differences will be greater on a more revealing system for sure. At the end of the day, for me, streaming is so close if not equal or in some cases better that it's what I'll stick with 99% of the time.

Choosing what you'll listen to the most is what matters most in my opinion.

There's been mention regarding certain files on Qobuz that equal or surpass files stored on a hard drive. I'd be interested in knowing which files those are. What streaming titles are your favorites? Thank you again to all those who've shared.

@jjss49 Will you tell us what you did to reach this level of streaming quality?

lots of variables here

but there is no reason for streamed music to sound worse than files that are downloaded, all else being equal

but all else is never equal...

personally, i have worked hard, learned alot, and implemented a very high quality streamed music front end... it is every bit as good sonically as cd’s played on my cdp (which is also of top quality, one could say that they may sound a little different -- but not clearly better or worse... this due primarily to the output stage differences of the my cdp’s and my dac that plays streamed music)

Streaming is very convenient and the quality is obviously precarious based on equipment, cables, etc… If I were to continue buying downloads and CD’s, I wouldn’t be depriving myself. I’m really curious however about the future of streaming and whether the file options would include DSD, labels like the now defunct Andante, or remastered audiophile labels like Analogue productions and whatever else. Hopefully there will be an abundant source of whatever anybody wants. 

@goofyfoot 

Enjoy, what you have. There are plenty good suggestions on this thread for you to try it out at your own pace. I do own this album in Pure DSD and it’s spectacular! 

😎 I’m listening to a DSD download of Bill Evan’s ‘Waltz For Debbie’. Its hard to believe a fifty nine year old recording from a night club could sound this amazing. Glad I spent the money!

@christianb5s4 

Thanks for your observations. It sounds to me you confirm the state of the art. The components you choose determine the sound you hear and they can be close in sound quality. Therefore, carefully chosen streaming can probably equal or exceed the fidelity of stored files. Your choice of components determine the sound quality. In the past, CDs, then stored files would trump streaming. Today… it depends.

I'll echo the experience others have shared. This past week I decided to buy digital copies of a few of my favorite albums and had a chance to compare to the streaming versions (via Qobuz). Both had the sample bit and sample rates. My GF also listened and her impression was the same as mine.

I found that to my ears, there are slight differences but can't say if one is better than the other. The local copy had more detail, was slightly more analytical, bass was more nuanced, and overall sounded cleaner. The streamed version was a bit softer and 95% of the detail and clarity. Both have their place and on certain songs, the softer nature of the streaming version was preferable over local and vice versa.

Besides having local copies of select favorite albums, it's more so a compliment to streaming achieving a high level. The convenience factor, breadth of choice, and overall sound makes me not pine for local copies.

Yeah I tested on a MAC mini.  After reading here and other places I finally took a leap of faith and put the core on a dedicated host (SGC ST i5) sitting at the rig and also hard wired to the Mesh Node. Made enough difference that I stuck with ROON over the Pi/MPD.

@jbuhl I was using an M1 Mac Mini.

’Upgrading to a mesh network and having the Pi connected directly to a node’.

It’s moot point if your Pi is hardwired ethernet. Mesh networks use nodes that you place around your house. They create an improved network environment with a single access point. I just have one of the nodes placed at my rig and can run ethernet cable directly to the node.

What were you using to run the ROON Core?

Mesh

Mesh-Wiki

@grannyring & @verdantaudio Thanks for sharing your comparisons. What about a DSD comparison with high resolution files? For me, DSD sounds better than any other format. Good remasters also produce favorable results.

@jbuhl I appreciate hearing from someone else using the Pi. I do admit that Roon has the best cataloguing software I've ever used. But I initially dropped Roon because I was not able to play DSD files through Roon. After which, I realized that MPD sounded exponentially better anyway so I found a work around using playlists and Rigelian. Bryston told me they're planning on releasing an MPD update that will be far better than anything they've ever had. I apologize for not being all that tech savvy, could you please clarify what your referring to when you said;  

'Upgrading to a mesh network and having the Pi connected directly to a node'

I also have Qobuz-->Bryston Pi. I also think spinning a CD on a BOT-1or playing files sound a tiny bit better and I mean tiny. Upgrading to a mesh network and having the Pi connected directly to a node and upgrading my cable reduced the margin even more. But not enough to dump a wad of cash on an upgraded streamer. The last move I made was putting a ROON core on an SGC ST and switching the Pi to an endpoint. Proly sit at this level for a while as it sounds really close to files and my Rega P6/Ania Pro. Nothing matches ROON for library management that I have seen. The Radio Paradise app for sure sounds better on the Pi than Roon and I switch back to Pi/MPD when critically listening to that source but otherwise I am all ROON now.

If my dealer ever gets a MOON Mind 2 in I might consider doing a head to head with the Pi. Or picking up a Used Bryston BDP-3. But the BDP-3 is totally over kill for just tapping a service or Roon Endpoint.

I did a test not long ago comparing local FLAC 16/44.1, 24/192, streamed FLAC 16/44.1 and 24/192 and the actual CD and SACD version.  Tested all using an Antipodes K50 with Samsung SSD into a Playback MPS-6 and then played the CD on the MPS-6s tray.

My focus was on detail.  I used Miles Davis So What as the test track and found that CD vs. Local 44.1 was so close it was tough to distinguish but at same resolution I found both CD and local were clearer and more detailed than streamed at same resolution.  

Ultimately, I found resolution trumped format.  192 streamed was superior to 44.1 local or on CD.  DSD on the SACD seemed like the best but it was only a small difference between it and local 192 but both were noticeably better than streamed 192 off Qobuz.  

This is not about which is most enjoyable.  Just focus on detail and clarity.  

I decided to listen very closely to two downloaded CDs in WAV files on my Innuos Zenith 3 drive vs the same two streamed from Qobuz. In both cases the streamed version on Qobuz was an HD 192 stream. In both cases the streamed version sounded slightly better. Van Morrison and Nora Jones. The Qobuz streams seemed to have less noise being more relaxed and pure sounding. A tad more enjoyable.

This scenario goes in the other direction slightly favoring my downloads depending on the quality of the particular Qobuz recording.

Investing in a high quality Aphile switch, ENO Muon ethernet filter, and ENO Muon ethernet cables helped make this level of streaming quality possible.

I have a Tron Atlantic Signature dac and Tchernov Ultimate USB cable. I owned the same Wireworld USB the OP uses and it is certainly very good! I did find both the ENO and Tchernov USB cables more to my liking. Both being more meaty and full bodied sounding while maintaining great realism and purity.

@goofyfoot I'd spend the $3600 you mentioned on streaming setup, amazing sound quality possible and library of music available nearly limitless. The most difficult thing is choosing which components to purchase within your budget.

Funny thing about streaming, budget constraints create more complications, marginal gains can be had with a myriad of add on components, things get simpler  at higher end.  Assuming one has nice dac, the server/streamer is absolutely critical to quality streaming. For off the shelf get something like Antipodes K series, Aurender, or other top of line and be done with it, none of these add on devices needed.

I've played with a number of these add on devices over the years, and while many have positive effects, none will come close to what top line streamer offers. While I've long considered dac most important component in streaming chain, I now consider streamer/server at least equal if not more important than dac.

Even if top line streamer out of budget, entirely satisfying streaming available right now, why wait years to experience quality streaming. Streams equaled my downloads some years ago, this with streaming setups in vicinity of $3600 budget you mentioned.

OP,

You are correct. But technologies reach tipping points a point where the financial and sound quality proposition is overwhelming, in my opinion that has happened with streaming. Yes, I think the better investment is streaming.

So, you have to look at the gains versus loses… there are normally compromises.

So, you gain access to 1/2 million high resolution recordings in various formates and millions of CD resolution recordings recordings where the mastering varies widely. You loose a few hundred specialty records and a can stream at a number of standard formats with millions and millions of recordings but not use one particular format. If it becomes popular, the streaming companies will start streaming in it. So what? Your universe expands a 100,000 times and you loose a tiny percentage of the possibilities.

Finally, streaming is paradigm shifting. We are trained to make careful choices and finding the very best recordings because once we make a purchase it is permanent. Streaming is different, and it takes a while for you to realize you can behave differently and increase your range of music.. It allows the great freedom to try some thing and if you don’t like it just move on to create a library that has no additional cost. It just creates a completely different way of looking at music but it takes a little while of living in that world to adapt to the new freedom.

In general, I find most any high end audio component gets significantly improved in ten years. Either making a case to upgrade or not. If you wait technology to stop improving then you will never change. Nothing wrong with that.

@kota1 I was thinking about the NAIM.

@goofyfoot , I think you can get a very good streamer for less than $2K. Some vendors sell streamers that you can upgrade with cards you can swap out like PC board if you are worried about future proofing:

https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-658-bluos-streaming-dac/

Is it worth it though to spend say, $3,600 on a streamer rather than buying CD’s and downloads? The thing about digital components is that we are in a digital renaissance and the streamer of today, will be half the cost ten years from now while newer technologies become the new standard. I bought my first DAC in 2011 when DAC’s were hardly heard of, now it seems like every company makes a DAC or streamer. And, Qobuz doesn’t offer DSD or boutique remasters like Analogue Productions, MOFI, etc... A lot of approaches going in different directions, if that makes sense.

I agree with @ghdprentice on zero compression from Qobuz or Tidal. The differences one hears between recordings stored on hard drive and the one being streamed is possibly from having a different analog master. There are plenty of recordings that sounds stupendously sublime on Qobuz. Just like Vinyl, there is some care involved in setting up a digital streaming system. Once you do, you’re in for a treat! 

Local tracks usually sound slightly better than streaming. Not a big deal. I have acquired < 40K curated without downloading except for a few freebies.

I do not believe there is any compression at all from Qubuz or Tidal for that matter. By todays standards the bitstream for music is minuscule. My streamer worked seamlessly while I can’t refresh my   News page on my iPad. Since high Rez from my streamer matches or exceeds CD and vinyl on my system it makes me pretty confident in believing this.

I suspect that all streaming services, even High Resolution ones, need to do some compression in the route from their servers to your listening room.  CDs and downloads sound best in my system but Qobuz isn’t that far off

A great streamer isolates, buffers, and translates the incoming signal. It sounds like it is not doing a good job on the streaming side. It sounds like you may be able to make up for that by doing things with your network. Or, as I mentioned, upgrade your streamer. It would not surprise me if an Ethergen would help… but my feeling it would just help a little. But the only way to know is to try it.

Thanks to all for the suggestions. My thought was that I could purchase a better streamer as well as something like the ENO or Ether Regen. What doesn't make sense to me is why I would need a better streamer if it sounds good coming from my SSD, isn't it sending the digital signal to my DAC the same way?