Downloads Versus Streaming

If I had the same song on a CD, a download and streaming I would likely prefer them in that order. If I had my eyes closed I would have to be very attentive to pick which is which.

@kota1 really, that close comparatively. My streaming sounds a bit thinner and brighter. There’s also more distortion. 

Not sure why CD’s would be preferable to a download unless that person had a disc spinner.

@goofyfoot I do have a disc spinner (Sony UHPH1 Universal player) that is very good to my ear. I think it may just nostalgia on my part or it could be the ripping process I use is less than perfect

@goofyfoot

Your scenario is very much like comparing apples to oranges. Downloads especially DSD’s in most cases will always sound superior to Qobuz high resolution files. Having said that, there are many files on Qobuz that sounds extremely good and satisfying. I wonder what tweaks you’ve done with Bryston Pi?

1) Are you using a Linear Power Supply,

2) Are you using any Ethernet filters between your router and Bryston Pi

3) What Ethernet and digital cable you’re using between Bryston Pi and QB9

@lalitk Yes, I have a Linear Power Supply attached to my Pi. I do not have Ethernet filters. I’m using a Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB cable from the Pi to my DAC.

@goofyfoot re: what I did to make improvements was to put all my network and streaming components in line with an ADD-POWR power conditioner, I recommend checking out there website.

@kota1 I'm using something like the eau2. Which piece did you buy?

@goofyfoot

Thanks for the info. I recommend installing a Ethernet filter like Network Acoustics ENO and switching to ENO USB III cable. Both of these items will likely address your concerns with streaming and improve the overall performance of Pi. I have used both of these products in the past and they are outstanding (especially the USB cable) and highly recommend them. I realize they are not cheap but they do come with 30 days no questions asked return privileges. If you can’t do both, I would start with ENO USB III cable.

PS: I have used WW platinum USB in the past and wasn’t too impressed. In my opinion, it’s what contributing to brightness and less weighty sound in your system.

@lalitk I'm happy with the Wireworld but I'm also using an ISO Regen with LP1 and that adds an improvement to my DAC from the comparisons that I've done with or without. I also have an  XLR Akiko tuning stick in the DAC and I am happy with that. My local library sounds very good, it's not bright, it's full and rich with a low noise floor, good detail and wide sound stage. That's with the described above. I would like to at least try the ENO.

@goofyfoot 

How is your NAS (local library) connected to your system? 

@goofyfoot, ADD POWR is run by Bill Steinout. He sold his previous company, QRT to Nordost who is now selling the QRT line he developed. I am using his QRT Octave power conditioner which has now been renamed and being sold by Nordost. That is why I recommend his current company instead of the Nordost version, he took the tech and has evolved it.

Streaming of red book CDs in my system sound exactly the same as CDs and streaming typically better because streaming has high Rez versions.. Actually streaming in my system sounds as good as my very high level vinyl playback analog leg.

It is like every other thing in high end audio… it depends on your components and interconnects. The streamer is every bit as important as the DAC… and the interconnect.

This has definitely not always been true and for a while only at a cost premium. But now it is relatively easy to achieve.

I highly recommend an Aurender streamer… I own two. Buy the best you can afford. In general, I recommend one at the price level or a bit higher than your average component cost. So, like amp, preamp, and DAC.

Alternatively, you can try to fiddle with your network to help make up for your streamer. I was in IT all of my life… I’m sick of it. You can use special routers, EtherRegerators. But a good streamer will negate the necessity.

My systems runs on a wall wart wifi extenders. I have a EtherRegen. I swapped it in and out over the last couple days. No difference. Many people experience differences. It has been my theory for a while that you have the choice of a good streamer or a less expensive one and fiddle with the network. I have tried and researched many streamers, my choice is Aurender (most common used at high end audio shows) and Linn (yeah, I know… who would have thought).

There is a huge payoff in getting streaming up to or exceeding stored files or CD… or vinyl for that matter. Your library goes from small to nearly infinite… instantly. Qobuz has over 1/2 million high resolution albums… plus likely virtually all the albums you own. Also, new music acquisition cost drops and your library only costs  $14.99 / month. So, if you acquire much music… you start saving money because of that streamer you bought.

So many variables with streaming, I agree streams can sound as good as downloads. My streams have taken recent uptick in that I can now use a variety of combinations of music players.  Both off the shelf and proprietary music players capable of very nice sound quality. If present stream quality not up to downloads experiment with various music players.

@lalitk my SSD is in a box and connected to the PI via USB cable. I was thinking about a better USB from the SSD to the Pi but in a way, that makes no sense.

Thanks to all for the suggestions. My thought was that I could purchase a better streamer as well as something like the ENO or Ether Regen. What doesn't make sense to me is why I would need a better streamer if it sounds good coming from my SSD, isn't it sending the digital signal to my DAC the same way?

A great streamer isolates, buffers, and translates the incoming signal. It sounds like it is not doing a good job on the streaming side. It sounds like you may be able to make up for that by doing things with your network. Or, as I mentioned, upgrade your streamer. It would not surprise me if an Ethergen would help… but my feeling it would just help a little. But the only way to know is to try it.

I suspect that all streaming services, even High Resolution ones, need to do some compression in the route from their servers to your listening room.  CDs and downloads sound best in my system but Qobuz isn’t that far off

I do not believe there is any compression at all from Qubuz or Tidal for that matter. By todays standards the bitstream for music is minuscule. My streamer worked seamlessly while I can’t refresh my   News page on my iPad. Since high Rez from my streamer matches or exceeds CD and vinyl on my system it makes me pretty confident in believing this.

Local tracks usually sound slightly better than streaming. Not a big deal. I have acquired < 40K curated without downloading except for a few freebies.

I agree with @ghdprentice on zero compression from Qobuz or Tidal. The differences one hears between recordings stored on hard drive and the one being streamed is possibly from having a different analog master. There are plenty of recordings that sounds stupendously sublime on Qobuz. Just like Vinyl, there is some care involved in setting up a digital streaming system. Once you do, you’re in for a treat! 

Is it worth it though to spend say, $3,600 on a streamer rather than buying CD’s and downloads? The thing about digital components is that we are in a digital renaissance and the streamer of today, will be half the cost ten years from now while newer technologies become the new standard. I bought my first DAC in 2011 when DAC’s were hardly heard of, now it seems like every company makes a DAC or streamer. And, Qobuz doesn’t offer DSD or boutique remasters like Analogue Productions, MOFI, etc... A lot of approaches going in different directions, if that makes sense.

@goofyfoot , I think you can get a very good streamer for less than $2K. Some vendors sell streamers that you can upgrade with cards you can swap out like PC board if you are worried about future proofing:

https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-658-bluos-streaming-dac/

@kota1 I was thinking about the NAIM.

OP,

You are correct. But technologies reach tipping points a point where the financial and sound quality proposition is overwhelming, in my opinion that has happened with streaming. Yes, I think the better investment is streaming.

So, you have to look at the gains versus loses… there are normally compromises.

So, you gain access to 1/2 million high resolution recordings in various formates and millions of CD resolution recordings recordings where the mastering varies widely. You loose a few hundred specialty records and a can stream at a number of standard formats with millions and millions of recordings but not use one particular format. If it becomes popular, the streaming companies will start streaming in it. So what? Your universe expands a 100,000 times and you loose a tiny percentage of the possibilities.

Finally, streaming is paradigm shifting. We are trained to make careful choices and finding the very best recordings because once we make a purchase it is permanent. Streaming is different, and it takes a while for you to realize you can behave differently and increase your range of music.. It allows the great freedom to try some thing and if you don’t like it just move on to create a library that has no additional cost. It just creates a completely different way of looking at music but it takes a little while of living in that world to adapt to the new freedom.

In general, I find most any high end audio component gets significantly improved in ten years. Either making a case to upgrade or not. If you wait technology to stop improving then you will never change. Nothing wrong with that.

@goofyfoot I'd spend the $3600 you mentioned on streaming setup, amazing sound quality possible and library of music available nearly limitless. The most difficult thing is choosing which components to purchase within your budget.

Funny thing about streaming, budget constraints create more complications, marginal gains can be had with a myriad of add on components, things get simpler  at higher end.  Assuming one has nice dac, the server/streamer is absolutely critical to quality streaming. For off the shelf get something like Antipodes K series, Aurender, or other top of line and be done with it, none of these add on devices needed.

I've played with a number of these add on devices over the years, and while many have positive effects, none will come close to what top line streamer offers. While I've long considered dac most important component in streaming chain, I now consider streamer/server at least equal if not more important than dac.

Even if top line streamer out of budget, entirely satisfying streaming available right now, why wait years to experience quality streaming. Streams equaled my downloads some years ago, this with streaming setups in vicinity of $3600 budget you mentioned.

I decided to listen very closely to two downloaded CDs in WAV files on my Innuos Zenith 3 drive vs the same two streamed from Qobuz. In both cases the streamed version on Qobuz was an HD 192 stream. In both cases the streamed version sounded slightly better. Van Morrison and Nora Jones. The Qobuz streams seemed to have less noise being more relaxed and pure sounding. A tad more enjoyable.

This scenario goes in the other direction slightly favoring my downloads depending on the quality of the particular Qobuz recording.

Investing in a high quality Aphile switch, ENO Muon ethernet filter, and ENO Muon ethernet cables helped make this level of streaming quality possible.

I have a Tron Atlantic Signature dac and Tchernov Ultimate USB cable. I owned the same Wireworld USB the OP uses and it is certainly very good! I did find both the ENO and Tchernov USB cables more to my liking. Both being more meaty and full bodied sounding while maintaining great realism and purity.

I did a test not long ago comparing local FLAC 16/44.1, 24/192, streamed FLAC 16/44.1 and 24/192 and the actual CD and SACD version.  Tested all using an Antipodes K50 with Samsung SSD into a Playback MPS-6 and then played the CD on the MPS-6s tray.

My focus was on detail.  I used Miles Davis So What as the test track and found that CD vs. Local 44.1 was so close it was tough to distinguish but at same resolution I found both CD and local were clearer and more detailed than streamed at same resolution.  

Ultimately, I found resolution trumped format.  192 streamed was superior to 44.1 local or on CD.  DSD on the SACD seemed like the best but it was only a small difference between it and local 192 but both were noticeably better than streamed 192 off Qobuz.  

This is not about which is most enjoyable.  Just focus on detail and clarity.  

I also have Qobuz-->Bryston Pi. I also think spinning a CD on a BOT-1or playing files sound a tiny bit better and I mean tiny. Upgrading to a mesh network and having the Pi connected directly to a node and upgrading my cable reduced the margin even more. But not enough to dump a wad of cash on an upgraded streamer. The last move I made was putting a ROON core on an SGC ST and switching the Pi to an endpoint. Proly sit at this level for a while as it sounds really close to files and my Rega P6/Ania Pro. Nothing matches ROON for library management that I have seen. The Radio Paradise app for sure sounds better on the Pi than Roon and I switch back to Pi/MPD when critically listening to that source but otherwise I am all ROON now.

If my dealer ever gets a MOON Mind 2 in I might consider doing a head to head with the Pi. Or picking up a Used Bryston BDP-3. But the BDP-3 is totally over kill for just tapping a service or Roon Endpoint.

@grannyring & @verdantaudio Thanks for sharing your comparisons. What about a DSD comparison with high resolution files? For me, DSD sounds better than any other format. Good remasters also produce favorable results.

@jbuhl I appreciate hearing from someone else using the Pi. I do admit that Roon has the best cataloguing software I've ever used. But I initially dropped Roon because I was not able to play DSD files through Roon. After which, I realized that MPD sounded exponentially better anyway so I found a work around using playlists and Rigelian. Bryston told me they're planning on releasing an MPD update that will be far better than anything they've ever had. I apologize for not being all that tech savvy, could you please clarify what your referring to when you said;  

'Upgrading to a mesh network and having the Pi connected directly to a node'

’Upgrading to a mesh network and having the Pi connected directly to a node’.

It’s moot point if your Pi is hardwired ethernet. Mesh networks use nodes that you place around your house. They create an improved network environment with a single access point. I just have one of the nodes placed at my rig and can run ethernet cable directly to the node.

What were you using to run the ROON Core?

Mesh

Mesh-Wiki

@jbuhl I was using an M1 Mac Mini.

Yeah I tested on a MAC mini.  After reading here and other places I finally took a leap of faith and put the core on a dedicated host (SGC ST i5) sitting at the rig and also hard wired to the Mesh Node. Made enough difference that I stuck with ROON over the Pi/MPD.

I'll echo the experience others have shared. This past week I decided to buy digital copies of a few of my favorite albums and had a chance to compare to the streaming versions (via Qobuz). Both had the sample bit and sample rates. My GF also listened and her impression was the same as mine.

I found that to my ears, there are slight differences but can't say if one is better than the other. The local copy had more detail, was slightly more analytical, bass was more nuanced, and overall sounded cleaner. The streamed version was a bit softer and 95% of the detail and clarity. Both have their place and on certain songs, the softer nature of the streaming version was preferable over local and vice versa.

Besides having local copies of select favorite albums, it's more so a compliment to streaming achieving a high level. The convenience factor, breadth of choice, and overall sound makes me not pine for local copies.

@christianb5s4 

Thanks for your observations. It sounds to me you confirm the state of the art. The components you choose determine the sound you hear and they can be close in sound quality. Therefore, carefully chosen streaming can probably equal or exceed the fidelity of stored files. Your choice of components determine the sound quality. In the past, CDs, then stored files would trump streaming. Today… it depends.

😎 I’m listening to a DSD download of Bill Evan’s ‘Waltz For Debbie’. Its hard to believe a fifty nine year old recording from a night club could sound this amazing. Glad I spent the money!

@goofyfoot 

Enjoy, what you have. There are plenty good suggestions on this thread for you to try it out at your own pace. I do own this album in Pure DSD and it’s spectacular! 

Streaming is very convenient and the quality is obviously precarious based on equipment, cables, etc… If I were to continue buying downloads and CD’s, I wouldn’t be depriving myself. I’m really curious however about the future of streaming and whether the file options would include DSD, labels like the now defunct Andante, or remastered audiophile labels like Analogue productions and whatever else. Hopefully there will be an abundant source of whatever anybody wants. 

lots of variables here

but there is no reason for streamed music to sound worse than files that are downloaded, all else being equal

but all else is never equal...

personally, i have worked hard, learned alot, and implemented a very high quality streamed music front end... it is every bit as good sonically as cd’s played on my cdp (which is also of top quality, one could say that they may sound a little different -- but not clearly better or worse... this due primarily to the output stage differences of the my cdp’s and my dac that plays streamed music)

@jjss49 Will you tell us what you did to reach this level of streaming quality?

There's been mention regarding certain files on Qobuz that equal or surpass files stored on a hard drive. I'd be interested in knowing which files those are. What streaming titles are your favorites? Thank you again to all those who've shared.

@ghdprentice That's a good point, the differences will be greater on a more revealing system for sure. At the end of the day, for me, streaming is so close if not equal or in some cases better that it's what I'll stick with 99% of the time.

Choosing what you'll listen to the most is what matters most in my opinion.

I downloaded a redbook CD and XRCD to the hard drive and they sound significanlty better (better imaging and details) than playing those same tracks from a CD player (Meitner MA-2, Audio Research CD9, McIntosh MCD1100).  Comparing between downloading vs. streaming, hard to judge which one is better, a toss up.

"What streaming titles are your favorites? "

@goofyfoot

Please follow this thread for favorites.

@lalitk Thanks there's a lot on that post, probably much more than I need. I was asking for recommendations, not based on favorite music from an artistic slant but rather favorite streaming titles based on quality of sound. I have experienced what others on this post have mentioned, that many files contrast from one another in sound quality despite the file format. I had made the assumption that 24/ 96 files would sound much better than 24/44.1 files but this was not the case. Would I have a different experience if I were to do the same comparisons with other titles, other labels... I'm assuming that I would.

"I had made the assumption that 24/ 96 files would sound much better than 24/44.1 files but this was not the case."

@goofyfoot 

Correct! It is not so much about the resolution but the provenance of that recording's original master. I have heard files in 16bit/44.1lHz that sounds simply amazing. For example, Shirley Horn's "Beautiful Love" or "If You Go" in 16bit/441kHz on Qobuz sounds stunning in my system. 

You can take look at my "Digital" system (under my username) to see the steps I've taken to ensure optimal streaming quality vs downloads. The devils is in the details :-) 

@lalitk I come to find out also that many titles, even on major labels, are being hyper compressed. That would certainly negate any benefit from higher resolutions.

I had read the same

“I come to find out also that many titles, even on major labels, are being hyper compressed. ”

@goofyfoot

Why do I get the feeling that you have already conceded to the notion that downloads will always sound superior to streaming :-)

I feel like we are on two different islands!