I randomly stumbled upon trying this in my existing set up. I have (2) different amps & (2) different pairs of speakers playing (1) signal from a streamer (via Roon). It sounds perfectly fine to me. There’s no ‘heard’ phase issues. It’s simply (4) speakers playing the source signal at the same time. Sounds cohesive…I cannot make the distinction of which speakers are playing. You do have to adjust the volume output via the internal preamp…because both amps are integrated amps in my set up. When I power off one amp there is simply less of everything…but it isn’t bad…the sound just drops down to 2 speakers playing in stereo mode vs quad stereo mode. If nothing else…fun to try…given I have (2) separate systems in one location that I alternate between. I have a class A Sugden paired with Spendor 4/5 classics (which are on speaker stands)…& a Hegel H390 paired with Salk Encore towers. The towers flank the monitors on a wall location with the system of components housed in between. My outboard DAC has (2) analog outputs…which I send outbound…to each amp. I don’t think it’s a bad idea (in my realm) per se…just different. I don’t dare say ‘try this’ using one amp & two pairs of speakers…& of course abandon it if it doesn’t sound cohesive (right) in your rig. And nope…don’t try it if you think it’s wrong in concept or undesirable in your set up.
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I have a Linn L100 power amp which does accomodate 2 pairs of speakers . I have tried a pair of carlsson OA50's and Sonab 0A14's both upward facing speakers and the soundstage is still apparent . Walls don't matter with these speakers . as someone once said 2 is better than 1 so logic dictates 4 must be better than 2 ?
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Not anymore! Your clarity and detail will suffer.
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I am running ELAC Navis book shelf active speakers currently.
I have acquired another identical pair of the ELAC's and am considering a dual pair configuration as being discussed in this forum.
Worth pursing?
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playing two pair of speakers at the same time cannot offer hi fidelity unless it uses two identical pairs and placed on top of each other |
I agree that if you have one monster set of speakers with some serious drivers (Cornwalls?) that stacking 2 sets might be superfluous.. bit i am in the camp of having the extra small speakers lying about not earning me a dime... and they do bring a bit more rawk to me rawknroll ... tallyho!! |
Has anyone seen the Tekton "The perfect Set"? It has a few tweeters in each cabinet!
But if you read the white paper on the design behind this, it is not just sticking a few tweeters in the cabinet. They are all acting as one driver. In other words, lobing, phase, cancellation, etc, are all taken into consideration by Eric Alexander in the placement and crossover design. He has several very informative vids on YT explaining the reason for the design. And again, it is not just sticking a bunch of tweeters in a cabinet. I will reiterate what I said months ago, the chances of getting a good, flat frequency response, with phase not becoming any worse than one pair of the speakers being used, with no weird new, cancelations, standing waves, increased dips or bumps in the frequency response, or other unpredictable results, are not good. If one likes the result, that is fine. Maybe you like whatever frequency aberrations are caused by multiple drivers operating at the same frequencies. |
We did that in college. Nothing like two pairs of JBL driven by 60 watts of Kenwood and Pioneer (using only the highest quality lamp cord, it should go without saying) in a 8x15 foot dorm room. Totally recreates with perfect fidelity the experience of high sound pressure levels.
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But I'll bet the non-casual listener, who enjoys sonic accuracy, would be shocked to hear an acoustically well-set-up quality two channel speaker compared to a mish-mash of various speakers channeled together when volume matched. It's all good; just keep listening!
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No doubt about it, Stacking old Advents, Acoustic Research, Rat Shak's sounds pretty awaesome,,,,TILL
A master shooter likea Voxativ AC1A with 97db walks into the saloon shooting down all these ~~Frankenstein~~ speakers,, as Adam over at madisound labeled my Seas W18E001 duals paired with 91db FR ~~monster~ aka The Frankenstein,,But I am loving this sound vs the Thors with the seas Millennium tweeter. \
= Mix N match works great,, until a REAl DEAL highs ens super high tech walks into town and blows away all these Frankensteins,,,lol |
, at least the efficiency should be in similar range.
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Im running 91 sens FR with SEAS W18E001 dual each channel and having success, But best to cross the W18 low, say 1500hz. This adds a bass floor to the 4,5 or 6.5 inch FR.
Now the FR at 97db, the W18's at 87db won;t work.
So agree, sens has to be at least close
I'm about to go SET amp and dump the Defy7,,so I might have to dump the W18's and find a higher sens bass unit to go with the Voxativ 8 AC1A |
Not this week maybe never. |
I have found that certain combinations of speaker pairs produce a better sound than the single pair alone
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Yes I've been experiementing lately and found this to be 100% true.
1 speaker will not make magic happen.
My previous local tech had stacked Acoustic Reserach from the 1970's, sounded great
Richard Gray stacks the Realistic Rat Shak Nova 7B's. Sound great.
I am stacking a high sens 91db FR with dual low sens 87 db Seas W18 midwoofer, xover at 2k, about to adda 2.2 cap and bring this down to 1600hz.
The 5 inch FR whizzzer cone lacks the low end, the dual W18's come in beautifully.
Success at pairing low sens + relatively high sens.
Pairing dif speakers together is really the only way to go.
This is the new high fidelity. |
Bilaltata, you will see on the first page of this thread the success I had (and still have) running Focal Utopias and Focal Electra 1038BE2’s together. What I’ve done since then to make them even better in performing as a pair is muting the tweeters on the Electra 1038 BE’s. Two pairs of tweeters can compete with each other and creat comb filtering. If you mute one pair, you may find the imaging and overall sound is even better, beating what you have already achieved. |
Great! In the past I have only done large Advents stacked and some smaller stand mounts, also tweeter to tweeter. Now I'm playing my highly modified Klipsch Quartets and RF 3 lll together and enjoying the sound. |
So I just got another pair of Focal Sopra 3 for another room but decided to try how it would sound to have 2 pairs running side by side in the same room with the same integrated amplifier (Anthem STR). Initially I placed them side by side and the sound was visceral and the dynamics were unbelievable. But the sound stage got muddy. Then I measured the tweeter distance from listening position on both pairs and got them aligned as good as I could so that the upper frequencies would reach my ear at the same time. The sound stage got much better and all the qualities of running both pairs at the same time were still intact. I must saw I am in complete awe. The sound is so much more enveloping, real, effortless. The bass is more even and full. I also got rid of some of the peaks from the standing waves, which could be a result of having both pairs in slightly different locations in the room. Absolutely Loving it. Now I’m not sure if want to take one of the pairs to the other room and just want to leave them both side by side. Will play with placement to get it aligned even better to get the sound stage to be as good as playing the single pair, if that is even possible.
Having a lot of fun with this! |
I've seen people running two pairs of speakers, either from one amp or two amps, and enjoying the fullness of sound.
If it sounds good, why not?
Of course, 'good' depends on the personal taste.
I think some pairs may work, but there's a high chance that the sound gets muddy with interference if not properly set up. With one amp, at least the efficiency should be in similar range. |
Rather fun to read all the differing viewpoints. I'll admit to stacking some cheap junk in college before my first real stereo. But ever since I have only used one (hopefully well-designed) pair at a time. I think a single high-end pair achieves the most pure and true-to-life sound you can get. (I don't/can't design my own.) A dedicated equal five-channel system is totally different and might be superb, but I've not got the money.
While fiddling with combos of speakers or more might be fun, and the sound pleasing to the listener's ears, I fear it is is in reality atrociously inaccurate. If the listener enjoys it, I'm all for doing it.
But I'll bet the non-casual listener, who enjoys sonic accuracy, would be shocked to hear an acoustically well-set-up quality two channel speaker compared to a mish-mash of various speakers channeled together when volume matched. It's all good; just keep listening!
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There have been many technical discussions on the "multi channel stereo" setting available in receivers and pre-pros. In essence, this is the same stereo signal sent to your 5.2 or 7.2 surround setup. It is misunderstood as party mode for non-audiophiles. But, it is not if you tweak it right. I have used that mode with great results in the past (timbre matched speakers and placement tweaks).. But, with immersive Atmos/DTS X upmixers or native available now, i don't do multichannel stereo that much anymore. |
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If I was down to one pair of speakers I'd do the same. But I have multiple speakers and multiple amps that I love, and only room for one system at this time. I'd rather use them then let them just sit in a closet. I'd sell them but nobody is buying these days. At least for not what I'm asking, so I use them instead.
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Like the hippies used to say, "if it feels good do it." Note: that doesn't apply to scratching mosquito bites. But as for me I prefer a single pair of the best speakers I can build.
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I run a pair of AR3's horizontally stacked with a pair of AR3a's. The 3's are driving by a McIntosh MC2300, the 3a's a Mc MC2105. Both amps are fed into a Mc C22(original, not reissue) preamp(with Y IC's), and the preamp is connected to a McIntosh CR7 remote which is how the overall system volume is controlled. Doing this because I have the gear lying around and no place to set up a second system, but more to the point it sounds better. A lot better. In every way. And yes, it sounds excellent using just one amp to drive either pair of speakers. I pay little attention to so called experts on stuff like this because at 64, having been involved in audio since I was 15, and listening to and owning all kinds of gear, I trust my ears with harmless stuff like this. Works for me.
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Why stop at four, one of my systems has 15 speakers and four subs. I even have a special name for that system. Home theater room. Sounds wonderful. Lol |
i have 4 speakers from the '4 chanell' days so i use all 4 in my 2 chanell system!!! |
The "speaker for each" instrument was the point of the Dead's famous "Wall of Sound" system back in the 70s. So it has been done. |
Has anyone seen the Tekton "The perfect Set"? It has a few tweeters in each cabinet! |
Check out the following video by speaker design wiz, Danny Richie. He explains why 2 tweeters on the same baffle is a bad idea, but a lot of what he says can be translated to multiple speakers of different designs also. Unless special circumstances are taken into consideration, like line arrays, for example.
Hee Hee, why do you think Danny used TWO tweeters as an example?
If you know the history, you know the reason, though NEVER spoken out loud... really do a little research, on GR research, when they came into existence, and what motivated, Danny into the Speakers designer he is.
HE just didn't like VMPS's owner Brian. Didn't like his approach to speaker building, not measuring things, ect... Funny Brian inspired a lot of people, weather through INSPIRATION, or, DESPERATION. Servo Bass, Danny's got some cool products, for sure...
Danny lives with a mic in his hand, simple. He's VERY good at his trade.
Yet, that marketing though serving him VERY well, shows others who DID NOT follow the leader, and took home prize after prize at CES.
So what gives?... I HAD a pair of LS6s.. got sold, WHY??? They had a ways to go to catch some of the VMPS crazy measuring speakers, simple...
Cool speaker, just something was missing, like the whole top end...
Where is the TWEET... lol
I'd give my last two teeth for a pair of the LS9 though....Right NOW...
Different folks, mate.. |
You know I've ran separate enclosures forever. My monitor sections (300 hz >) are separate from my Mid bass couplers, and MB couplers (80-300 hz) are separate from my bass (80-100 hz <) units. I keep the MB very close to the monitor section. I like a narrow baffle for the monitors, and as narrow as I can get with the couplers. I'm a VMPS fan from WAY back, and of course there are those that think VMPS was NOT a good speaker. It's ok to be WRONG. They were and ARE a well built speaker and have a true CULT following. I'm ONE... BUT I'm not a VMPS only kind of guy. If you read any of the stuff I post, just about anything goes as long as it is in the interest and PURSUIT of "THE SOUND"
That guy Brian C. Mr Bass, wasn't your normal, follow the leader, kind of guy. I LIKED the guy his "try it see if it SOUNDS right approach" was just despised by a few of his (they thought) competitors, and a watchful eye from most of the others. He sold finished speakers, kits, raw drivers, and for a few he built OX, OXO, all kinds of goodies.
The kits, the drivers and just about everything was upgradable. RARE!!
The real rare part, IT WAS AFFORDABLE, Very affordable. The guy was on the way home, for over 30 years. 30 years of stopping in seeing all kinds of ideas. One of his bass enclosures, was set up with a 12,15 active, 15 passive (tunable) 250 < (some 350 <) had to ask for the latter.
Was designed to blend in some type of very popular speaker at the time. Quad or something..
THAT is when he said, "if not for expense", There would be 2 (3 if subs were used) enclosures in his systems. COST!!!! I went to 2 enclosures per side, and depending on the music and the BASS two or more < 100 hz enclosures were added. normally behind or mid way in the room.
That is when I learned TIMING (moving the enclosure forward or backward), the length of the wave, where it's coming from, and bouncing off of, was the key to BASS, if you can control 300 < everything else is pretty easy. I learned that PHASE PLUGS, were the key to distortion in the bass sections, if a servo system wasn't used.
I use HUGE couplers, 4 12 WCF phase plugged MB couplers. That surface area is large and very much influenced by 100hz and down. PP took care of the problem mechanically, without a processor.. HF issues, room treatment, mids, position (more so), and BASS well it's everywhere, so EVERYTHING counts, ay.
I'm currently reducing the size of the couplers and increasing the number to narrow the baffle. 4 enclosure (may add a third per) with 3 8" PP drivers per enclosure. In theory it's suppose to be better, we'll see. Then the newer servo bass system has a little more leg room. 100-120 hz or lower. VERY VERY clean bass reproduction. Very analog. I also use enclosures that use PR with mass tuning, like down to 177 BB size of tuning. Brian taught me how to FINE tune bass without processors, in spite of a shi? amp, pre amp, room conditions, everything.. He was incredibly blessed with "THE EAR" for that...Not easy to do, takes me days to get it right.
That is a lot of enclosures per side, but it sure WORKS. and easy for me to tune, just an inch here and there, with a monitor swap..Wife appeal, well she is a pretty good sport, especially when she's not here...
A lot of folks have listened, a lot of folks leave with a smile and a "how the heck did you do that"? See it's not the normal way of doing things so many purest just thumb their noses. It's ok it's your nose, it's my ears..LOL
Respectfully, and with regard, the OldHvyMec
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@bwohlfel...... I found the exact same thing. If I feel the soundstage getting wonky I move the speakers a bit...well worth the troiuble |
I moved a pair of Zu Omen MKII rev A speakers I'd been using in a second system with an Elekit TU 8233 I assembled (2a3) into my primary system MAC7200 and Graham LS5/9 (on selectable pre out -2). The Zus are set up slightly in front and outside the Grahams forming an equilateral triangle with a bit more toe in. Id intended to use the Grahams for jazz, classical, acoustic and the Zus for rock. Independently they imaged very well with a good soundstage, tone etc- It would be difficult to tell which speaker is "on" for someone not familiar with the sound of either speaker. Last night I had both on and was amazed at how musical they were together. Its like their shortcomings were minimized and there is a real synergy. it seemed to bring greater focus, more dynamics and presence and more solid foundation and a better tonal balance with both on than either by themselves. I a/b'd and a+b over and over with different tracks of all genres from Bill Evans ti Metallica and found the sum more enjoyable than the parts. From what I'd read before this wasn't supposed to be the case so I searched and found this thread. Thought Id post this experience for what its worth. |
It was many years ago that I happened to own 3 sets of speakers for my system. The main pair were JBL 4343. But then, I got talked into buying a small set of Maggies. Thirdly, a set of Klipsch Cornwalls were added. First off, the JBL and Maggies were very tricky to get right. When I did feel satisfied, that would all change in the next album or so. To try and match the Cornwalls to ANYTHING was a total waste of time.
Headphones placed partially on the head with speakers running rarely works unless the speakers are facing each other like a giant set of headphones next to your head. I don't experiment as wildly as I did in my 20's or 30's, but don't belittle anyone wants to give experimentation a try. Overall, I have enjoyed the hell out of this hobby, straight or with a twist. |
I wonder how many people think experimenting with speaker placement and volume matched multiple speakers is a bad idea have ever actually tried it? As I said previously been messing around for years and there are some truly great combos. (Yes I have SPL meters one pro and one old Radio Shack also can switch from my chair up to 7 pairs of speakers and any combination of pairs including running all seven pairs.) Have fun everyone, enjoy the music and gear in the new year! |
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@canibefrank,
Of course you can be Frank. "Consider for a moment any beauty in the name Ralph."
I too am looking for a preamp. Yes the Freya has got some good recommendations here and elsewhere. But, I really want tone controls, and the soundstage control and extra outputs on the F360 are interesting. There's just not a lot of info or reviews out yet. I can't even find the manual.
I would take Schiit over anything out of China.
Check the UnderwoodHiFi Black Friday deals for the Black Ice.
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@asvjerry,
Thanks for your post. Know what you mean about live shows. I volunteer at a Folk/Americana acoustic series. Vocals and acoustic instruments are always reinforced. Bagpipes were a recent exception! Soundman is in a rear corner, so he'll usually walk to center during soundcheck. After the initial tweaking, most of the soundcheck issues are getting the on-stage monitors right for the performers. But yes, most all shows, except classical, are augmented.
I'm not such a purist that I won't consider EQ, and maybe moderate not over the top surround. Hence the interest in the Fosgate pre. And I do want a pre with tone controls. Or, I'll add the Schiit Loki. |
@cscrutinizer
I am interested in the F360.. a bit expensive compared to the ChiFi I was looking at and even the Schiit Freya+.. quad-like analog surround sound has me interested..
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@cscrutinizer23, now That (the Black Ice unit) starts to approach what I'm able to do, sans the Dimension control...unless you'll accept that I can induce delay into the back channels, which has to be applied judiciously. That in itself can get out of hand fairly quickly....amusing at times, but...;) Adding a splitter/mixer to the 'mix' (pun intended) can just make matters...worse? Better? *L* Depends upon what mood I'm in....
An observation that different pairs of speakers from different manufacturers will make the most obvious difference immediately. The 'voicing' of different units will augment, cancel, or just display some very curious effects on what's being played. Generally, what 'works' best is the same pairs, front & rear. Then, the characteristics will, at minimum, will approach being more or less the same.... Delay and cross-mixing the rears will begin to induce 'augments/cancels' in a smaller space that can be controlled. But you have to be set up to deal with it.
I'd suppose that my 'approach' to enjoying reproducing music for my pleasure and environs is different than most here. I've gotten into the habit when at a concert of any size or space is to plant my butt near the mix pit. In that way, I get to listen to what those 'in charge' of what's going on are listening to as well. That, and look over their shoulders and perhaps see what they're up to, and seeing what the audience is being subjected to.
We're being 'manipulated' in a major way.... ;) 'Pro audio' in a live format or in studio applies some tech that you may (or not) be aware of, and it's not limited to 'live rock concerts'. Symphonies are still 'pure' in that sense, but the presence of speaker racks in halls does make me pause...
Some halls suck...and 'they' are aware of it; ergo, 'augmentation'.
Now, I'm not claiming I can make Krap sound like a Klipsch; one has to have Something to start with, after all. But one can apply active eq and crossovers to make the best of it. Not to the taste of most, but it beats spending major $ on a system and still not being happy with it....IMHO.
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Has anyone heard the new Black Ice Audio F360 Tube Pre-amplifier? Designed by Jim Fosgate, it can create a stereo surround system. It has front and rear stereo outputs, stereo and mono sub woofer outs. Tone controls, a Dimension control and a back level control let you control the soundstage and tailor the system to your room.
I'm guessing you need a second amp for the rear speakers, or powered speakers?
I have an old integrated with two sets of speaker outs. Can play A, B, or A and B. Always thought of it being designed to power two different rooms. I haven't tried two sets of speakers in the same room...yet.
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Great post rocray, half of my listening is done on headphones because my wife can't take "loud" music, plus she doesn't care for classical music (this spoken 2 years ago after attending over 45 years of concerts at 8 to 12 per year) and HATES Jazz! I'm very happy she has put up with my audio insanity all these years. |
I have to admit,when I first read this thread I cringed. Then I started to think about this hobby. Sound is very personal. We all literally hear differently. We all may agree that a train sounds like a train,but that's about where it ends. If stacking speakers,or running 6 pairs next to your chair,or whatever gives you the sound you're looking for,then you have slayed the dragon. (For now at least!) lol!!.
I know sometimes I get too caught up on what my perception of right and wrong is. However, we are all different. Some of you may hear my system and hurl chunks. It all boils down to enjoying the music,and the gear choices you make.
Enjoy the ride,
Ray |
Had Elacs B6 running along klipsch p37s side by side, the sound was more "filling" but Soundstage was gone, reflections everywhere, and this was a rectangular high ceiling room, personally didn't like it, I moved to a new house and my room is a "difficult" challenging one, got audiokinesis Azels speakers and swarm which will make for better sound on the difficult rooms as you can adjust glare etc. Although I would like trying running other set of speakers just for fun and tinkering I am almost positive I won't like the sound. Note I am not criticizing experimentation as a matter of fact this is a very interesting topic, thanks to the OP.
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...and I post late @ night, so I don't have to cope with the catcalls....;) |
@tomic601 ...
"now a Klipsch and Maggie marriage must sound like a tortured Labradoodle on speed.."
*LOL* As for the latter...how can you tell the difference between 'that'...and one that isn't?! They Always seem to be wound up like a tin toy....*L* They make most breeds act like they're on 'doggie downers'...
Anyway, back 'on topic'....
2 pairs of 'matched' omnis'....small sub for the 'bottom'....active eq.
The only thing I'd fault Linkwitz with is different pairs F & R....
My 'reference speakers' are 3 pairs for H, M, & B; same formula as the omnis'....
I have a pair of small Maggies', and No, I wouldn't subject them to 'competition'. Dipoles and direct radiators conflict by nature; the K's will drown the Maggies' subtlety....;)
Yes, I have an attitude about 'these things'....just like everyone else around here. *L*
Nothing personal, mind you.... ;) I just needed to toss my wooden shoes into the gears....
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I have attended many live classical musician and jazz concerts. There are many of the same instruments with different manufactures playing together at the same time creating beautiful music. I always thought a speaker for each instrument playing only that instrument in it's exact spot would be an interesting experiment. I have owned many pairs of speakers and amplifiers, I have also played up to 7 pairs of various speakers set to the same volume using a spl meter at the same time. Most combinations don't sound better than the single pairs, just different. However some pairs have sounded decidedly better in the full frequency range and on various music sources. It's a hobby and a blast messing around. I have also been doing this for 50 years and still enjoying myself. Have fun, but remember live is best and at home it's all about the music. Stretch your ears. |
Yeah @simonmoon, the Danny Richie Tech Talk Tuesday videos are fantastic. Tekton owners might want to not watch them, though ;-) . |
Why is it people like a blended whiskey ? Or a V8 in a Chevy Monza or a Maverick? Life is complex, the grail elusive....
now a Klipsch and Maggie marriage must sound like a tortured Labradoodle on speed... |
Back in the early to mid 70's, some dealers would stack two pair of EPI 100"s with excellent results. Often besting the stacked Advent pairing. Although the smaller EPI woofers didn't have the bass extension of the Advents. |
Running 2 pairs of dissimilar speakers at the same time is such a bad idea, in a stereo system. Especially in the high frequencies. Not sure if the OP is talking about stacking them, or playing them on 4 different walls, but either way, not good. People, comb filtering is a thing. The frequency response would be completely unpredictable, there is no way to know if some frequencies are going to increase or decrease due to frequencies from one speaker’s dips or rises in frequency response meeting the other speaker’s dips and rises. Then there are difference in lobing caused by different drivers and different crossovers. I am sure that imaging and soundstage would be close to nonexistent. Check out the following video by speaker design wiz, Danny Richie. He explains why 2 tweeters on the same baffle is a bad idea, but a lot of what he says can be translated to multiple speakers of different designs also. Unless special circumstances are taken into consideration, like line arrays, for example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGSfaKWcetQ I would guess that any result that would sound ’good’ would be the result of certain frequencies, like maybe the presence region (4-6 K), being increased or decreased, depending on if the listener like bright or rolled off sound, or increase in bass response, etc. |
i am running all actives... i am still doing some eval on this setup... while i am losing a bit of crystal best-in-class midrange detail from running only the AirPulse Model 1 , the heft and soundstage of this arrangement cannot be denied. the JBL 305 is no slouch and as it onle goes to about 16Khz I am only feeling the love from these 200 dolla boxes... a livelier all-around sound.. i love dem horns |
If you are not running 2 amps off of your pre,(providing the pre has multiple outputs) isn't the amp seeing potentially damaging low impedance? |
