I thought using a 12 inch b&w asw 2000 sub would b good to allow my b&w 804 d3’s to better handle freq above 80 hz (ie. benefit from sharing burden). I am not sure this is prudent as my well powered 804s can probably handle those lower frequencies just fine, and may make them sound better vs cutting them off from flowing thru the 804s. My Stereo listening is done by streaming thru a nucleus connected via usb to a chord Hugo tt2 and then to a marantz 5014 via coaxial, then to a McIntosh mc255 and then off to speakers referred to above
I do, very successfully, and god (or, that is: the DBA-inquisition) forbid only two of them. They're tapped horns taking up 20 cubic feet per cab, and tuned just below ~25Hz. Low-passed @83Hz, and symmetrically set up in relation to the main speakers. Smooth, enveloping and totally effortless bass.
I really think subs and surround for the home is nothing but a marketing gimmick. just distracting garbage. If I won lotto (gotta play first) and could hire a qualified team to design a system ground up using a stereo pair of speakers and subs maybe, but why not use the subwoofer/s money to get better mains? nah not even if I could do it for free.
If you are using a 2 way crossover rolling the 804s off say at 100Hz 24db/oct several things happen. You will increase the headroom of the satellite system. Essentially, it now has more power to spare. You will drop the distortion levels of the 804's woofer. Everything else that woofer carries will be much cleaner. This all assumes at least two subwoofers adjusted correctly. Subwoofers set up incorrectly will more than likely make things worse. Unfortunately, in most systems subs are set up by trial and error. Then you have to deal with room acoustics which sub performance is very sensitive to. This is an important reason why multiple subs are required. I and others seem to have landed on 4 subwoofers as optimal. Ideally, you have digital control of crossovers, EQ and time and phase alignment. You measure the sub from several points in the room and overlay the curves. Peaks or troughs present at all locations are due to the subs performance and need to be corrected. Those that vary from one place to another are due to room modes. Correcting these is a waste of power and does not make anything sound better except at one specific point in the room. It will also add distortion due to higher loads on the driver and amplifier. If the bass does not sound good at the listening position you can start EQing the bass to neutralize some of the modes at the listening position. Without digital bass management setting up the woofer depends on somebodies interpretation of the sound. Then, trial and error adjustments with the crossover and position of the speakers. It really is hit or miss. In many instances subwoofers should be avoided.
I run a pair of subs with nmtched amp and preamp to my main speakers. It allows me to listen to music I would otherwise avoid, since I have no tone controls Mainly old LP's.
I’m thinking you’re probably getting a bit overwhelmed and confused right about now, due to all the varied, pro and con advice you’ve been receiving on this thread about subs. It’s not unusual for some groups of audio enthusiasts to be against the use of subs. One group considers themselves ’traditionalists’ or ’purists’ that accept, without challenge and regardless of evidence to the contrary, the long standing audio hobby trope that subs shouldn’t be needed or used and just continue to parrot this outdated and misguided belief. Other overlapping anti-sub groups, that may or may not consider themselves audio traditionalists or purists, consists of those who have never experienced the sound quality of a good system with 1 or more subs optimally incorporated and those that have attempted to integrate 1 or more subs into their own system but perceived the results as negative for some reason. It’s important to note that individuals in this latter group could have perceived poor results from their attempted sub incorporations due to not following reliable and proven methods of incorporating 1 or more subs into a room and system. My main point is that it’s fairly common for individuals, even among otherwise knowledgeable and experienced Audiogon members, to be unaware of these reliable and proven methods of incorporating 1 or more subs into virtually any room and system. I believe this lack of knowledge and experience explains the opinion of some that incorporating 1 or more subs is difficult or not possible. My intention is to urge you not to become discouraged by the sub naysayers, they just don’t know what they don’t know. I can assure you that, if you follow my advice, you’ll be able to very successfully incorporate 1 or more subs into your room and system. Rest assured, there are very effective, and fairly simple, methods of reliably and effectively incorporating 1 or more subs into virtually any room and system, regardless of the main speakers utilized. I’m willing and able to guide you through the process if you’d like. The only stipulation is that 1-2 subs are required to provide good bass at a single designated listening position and a minimum of 3-4 subs are required to provide good bass performance throughout your entire room. The reasons for this are a bit complex but I can explain them to you if you'd like.
It took me a while to realize how important subs are for stereo listening, but glad I realized it. It is not only about getting good bass, which it does (get high quality subs) but you will see how the mids become rich. More the subs, better it gets, but I settled with 2 subs. Also, I agree with getting a quality pre-amp or integrated amp. Try to experiment yourself to see if your DAC can be connected to amp directly (many DACs act as pre-amp) and see for any difference in sound quality. In my experience, the sound quality was much better when I used pre-amp portion of my integrated amp, compared to bypassing the pre-amp.
I would dearly love to get a Swarm as @atmosphere suggests. I’ll have to move to a larger room. I barely have room for my stereo pair and to walk but they did wonders for the low end once I had them adjusted to perfection. I thought I could do without a sub, then after reading and watching the videos of Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" and then speaking with Jim for advice I became convinced that I should have subs. Two is better than one and four or more is even better.
I totally agree with Noble100 assessment above regarding sub naysayers and purist. The sub naysayers and purist have probably never experienced a well setup subwoofer(s) in a stereo system hence their negative opinion in using a subwoofer with stereo !
Many well setup stereo systems sound great without any subwoofer. However adding a MATCHING suitable subwoofer to any system will transform the system to another level no matter how good or powerful your main speakers are. You have to experience it to believe it.
However, one cannot simply add just any subwoofer to a stereo system and expect it to perform well!
The key to the performace success is that the subwoofer(s) must be a suitable match for your mains in terms of speed/power/range and be correctly placed and setup in your room environment.
Regarding your current system, I would say that you will not benefit greatly by adding your ASW2000 subwoofer to your stereo system. The ASW2000 is good for theatre use but it is simply no match for your much superior B&W 804 mains in terms of speed and power etc. I would rather just enjoy the stereo system without subwoofer in this case.
The manufacturer's recommended subwoofer for your mains will be the B&W DB1/DB2 range. REL S810 + Series subwooofers will also be a good match, specially with their high level input option. The older B&W ASW825/850 sub will also work well with your system. I have used ASW850 in the past but I now use dual REL 212SE to go with my system with high level input option.
Adding subwoofer(s) may seem an expensive upgrade but it offers value for money in much superior all round performance benefits. It is also much cheaper then upgrading your mains!!
@soix I 100% agree with your response regarding subs. You mentioned Wilson.. a friend has XLF’s and a seriously dialed room. He recently added a Thor’s Hammer... Holy Sh!t Batman! It is amazing! Hardly a BOOM, BOOM, BOOM. A well integrated sub system will transform ANY 2 channel speaker setup... period.
Subs make music seem more lifelike and natural, kind of like what tubes seem to do...it takes a little time to set ’em up correctly (I use a "swarm" of 2 RELs...2...albeit a small swarm) but once dialed in you’re likely in a much better place musically, and you don’t have to depend on main speakers of that .001% that could be considered actually "full range."
The Velodyne SMS-1 acoustic room corrector has a single XLR LFE input. Is it OK to use a splitter to mix the LR outputs from the preamp for input to the SMS-1 -- assuming full-range preamp output into an LFE input is not a problem?
At a future point will plan to have me built two 10"-loaded PicoWrecker tapped horn subs in addition to the pair of larger 15"-loaded MicroWrecker tapped horn siblings that I already use in my set-up (they share a similar tune), for a quad sub set-up/DBA. That should smooth out the response for minimal if any DSP-corrections with the bonus of even more headroom - not that the latter is strictly needed, to say the least. Subs are essential in most any stereo system, not just Home Theater ditto, and when properly implemented will add an extra dimension to the sonic experience.
No dbphd it is not!! You are likely to mono your entire system. You would have to take those outputs to another line stage then Mono that.
I wish to reiterate that just adding a subwoofer to a system without using a high pass filter on the main amplifiers is going to produce inferior results 99 times out of 100. This format exists only because if it did not the business would never be able to sell subwoofers. If crash and boom is all one is interested such is the theater crew then fine I suppose but for the accurate reproduction of bass? Not possible or perhaps highly unlikely. Listening to an acoustic bass solo such as by Ron Carter or Dave Holland you should be able to switch in an out of bypass without hearing a difference as long as a really low note is not struck. Then it will be obvious there is a subwoofer there. If there is a difference there is a problem even if you like it. If you like more bass you add it after everything is adjusted correctly. Adjusting a subwoofer is not a straightforward process. There is choosing the right crossover slope and frequency, matching volume with the satellites and most importantly matching them in time. The bass coming from the subwoofers and the satellites has to appear sonically as if it is coming from the same instrument in time and space hopefully in phase. Before digital bass management the only way we had of doing this was moving the subwoofers relative to the satellites which usually meant pulling them away from the walls were they performed best. One compromise after another. Does using a "swarm" system negate the need for this? Not at all. The signal from both the swarm and the satellites still has to reach your brain at the same time. Swarming smooths out the bass response within the room but this does not change the interaction with the satellites. The solution is the same regardless of the type of subwoofer system. You ping all the speakers individually and apply digital delays so that the sound of each gets to the listening position at the exact same time. Trying to do this empirically by moving speakers around? You might as well go looking for a needle in a haystack. I suppose many manage to reach a reasonable compromise using the tools they have but the results are far from perfect. For very critical listeners subwoofers can have a very bad reputation for this reason. Adding bass is always fun until you realize it is making that bass drum sound like a gorilla barking. In short, you cannot get the very best out of subwoofers without a complete two way crossover and digital bass management. You may be able to come up with something that is reasonable but there are never any guarantees. This is the problem that lies behind the argument as to whether or not subwoofers are a good thing. For many they will not be. For people who just want a lot of bass they will always be a good thing. For people who want accurate low bass they can be quite the headache. That is a battle of your choice. If you get a Trinnov, Anthem or DEQX unit first you will be light years ahead on the learning curve.
mijostyn, the Ayre preamp has two pair of analog outputs. Are you implying that using a splitter to mix the output of one pair is likely to effect the output of the other pair?
I suppose an alternative is to take the second output from the Ayre preamp to the LR inputs of the Bryston SP3 processor set to by-pass, and take its sub output to the SMS-1 acoustic room corrector. The SP3 does have digital bass management and I think by-pass mode lets the Ayre control the volume.
Just to be clear, for stereo the setup is Roon via ethernet to Ayre QX-5 endpoint, balanced analog to Ayre KX-5/20 preamp and VX-5/20 amp.
... Ayre preamp has two pair of analog outputs. Are you implying that
using a splitter to mix the output of one pair is likely to effect the
output of the other pair ...
Such outputs are almost always in parallel so yes, if you join L and R on one set of outputs you'll have the same result on the other.
Using subs while running main speakers as they were designed at full range, at least the full range they're capable of, works fine. My 2 RELs simply enhance the sound of my mains and add the necessary low bass, and are easily dialed in without the unnecessary addition of an extra crossover...time for low bass is essentially irrelevant and correct phase is easily dealt with...note that if you're in a small club near the musicians (remember those?) with a band across a stage, you hear all the instruments with timing delays...drummer 10 feet away from the piano, guitar player on the side with plexiglass barriers...whatever...and the result of all that can be great sounding music. Don't be warned off by self appointed experts, except me of course.
Yes the Excellent very high tech SVS 3000sb it has won a ton of awards ,a smaller version of the SB16 and at $995, or 2 for $1900 no brainer it beats subs at $2k each and will do honest Bass below 20 HZ and a very good app.
wolf_garcia:"
Using subs while running main speakers as they were designed at full range, at least the full range they're capable of, works fine. My 2 RELs simply enhance the sound of my mains and add the necessary low bass, and are easily dialed in without the unnecessary addition of an extra crossover...time for low bass is essentially irrelevant and correct phase is easily dealt with...note that if you're in a small club near the musicians (remember those?) with a band across a stage, you hear all the instruments with timing delays...drummer 10 feet away from the piano, guitar player on the side with plexiglass barriers...whatever...and the result of all that can be great sounding music. Don't be warned off by self appointed experts, except me of course."
+1 wolf_garcia Well said and I agree with everything you stated. Humans are not nearly as sensitive to the arrival time of bass frequency sound waves as we are to the time alignment of midrange and treble frequencies. Bass sound waves are extremely long, spread out in all directions from the driver, whether the woofer is in a main speaker or a sub, and they continue to reflect off room boundaries (walls, ceiling and floor) until they're either absorbed or run out of energy. In fact, we don't even hear or perceive any bass sound at all until the very long complete full cycle bass sound wave is detected by our ears/brain. If we detect anything other than a complete full cycle sound wave, we hear or perceive any sound at all. If the room is not very large, this means the very long full cycle bass sound wave must reflect off of 1 or more room boundaries before it is even recognized by our ears/brain as such and a perception of sound generated by our brain. The truth is, much of the deep bass sound we hear in a room is perceived as a result of reflected sound waves. Given these physical realities in most normal sized rooms, it's obviously not possible to time align over the entire audible frequency range. It's virtually impossible to ensure that the long and omnidirectional bass sound waves arrive at the designated listening position at the same time that the much shorter and highly directional midrange and treble sound waves arrive, Fortunately, it's not relevant since humans don't require time alignment for accurate sound perception.
Hello, If you are using your subs for music please run your front or L/R speakers full range and set the limit on the subs crossover to meld with your speakers. You might be surprised going all the way up to 110hz on the subs crossover for music or melding with the front two speakers. When watching movies it is a different setup they tell you to do. I do what sounds best. Even my very small surround speakers play down to 60 hz and my center plays down to 45 hz. I set the fronts to large or full and the rest at 60hz. My ported sub comes in at 80 hz to blend in. My main speakers play down to 25 hz and my subs are set to roll of at 50 hz. This is the frequency when I could tell when they disappeared.
Nobil100, no it is not fine to run satellites full range while adding subs for three reasons. First is you miss the opportunity to lower distortion and increase head room significantly in the satellites. Second is you make integration much more difficult. You are down where the wavelengths are over 10 feet up to 30 feet. Unless you are using digital bass management matching phase and time are difficult, usually by trial and error moving the speakers and perhaps by using a phase control on the sub. Without a two way crossover there will be more overlap making the problem worse. Digital crossovers can use slopes as high as 10th order which is actually too steep! Third is you will get a hump where the speakers overlap. Unless you can EQ the subs, keeping the system from booming at the overlap will force the volume down below the overlap keeping you from getting the power you need below 40 Hz. The hallmark of a good subwoofer system is that at a modest volume there is no difference in sound on subwoofer bypass until a really low note comes along. Use an acoustic bass solo and switch back and forth. At higher volumes the decrease in distortion in the satellites may tip you off.
The quick answer: No, I don't - its why I don't have one sub in the first place. Why? 1. Due to very favourable room conditions, my floors standers going down to quoted 35Hz are just fine as they already 'borderline', at times, tend overload the venue. 2. Having had some exposure to only marginally integrated subs, leaves me to keep my wishes clear of any subs rocking my guts. (I'm not into 'thunder and lighting' AV shows either.) So, 'Horses for courses' I'd say. M. 🇿🇦
" Nobil100, no it is not fine to run satellites full range while adding subs for three reasons. First is you miss the opportunity to lower distortion and increase head room significantly in the satellites."
Hello mijostyn,
I googled emergingsoul’s stated main speakers, B&W 804 D3, before I made any comments on his thread and these are what came up:
These are the floor standing, full range satellites my comments were based on and they have a rated bass extension down to 24 Hz. Just like any pair of floorstanding speakers, of course, I realize it’s highly unlikely that their rated bass extension will be heard or perceived at the designated listening position without the utilization of at least 1 properly positioned and configured sub in the room. Apparently, you’re under the impression he has stand mounted bookshelf type satellites with limited low frequency output. If this were the case, then I’d agree with most of what you stated. But I definitely don’t agree with your statement:
" Unless you are using digital bass management matching phase and time are difficult, usually by trial and error moving the speakers and perhaps by using a phase control on the sub."
Your statement is incorrect because bass sound waves are extremely long, spread out in all directions from the driver, whether the woofer is in a main speaker or a sub, and they continue to reflect off room boundaries (walls, ceiling and floor) until they’re either absorbed or run out of energy. In fact, we don’t even hear or perceive any bass sound at all until the very long complete full cycle bass sound wave is detected by our ears/brain. If we detect anything other than a complete full cycle sound wave, we hear or perceive any sound at all. If the room is not very large, this means the very long full cycle bass sound wave must reflect off of 1 or more room boundaries before it is even recognized by our ears/brain as such and a perception of sound generated by our brain. The truth is, much of the deep bass sound we hear in a room is typically perceived as a result of reflected, and not direct, sound waves. Given these physical realities in most normal sized rooms, it’s obviously not possible to time align over the entire audible frequency range. It’s virtually impossible to ensure that the long and omnidirectional bass sound waves arrive at the designated listening position at the same time that the much shorter and highly directional midrange and treble sound waves arrive, Fortunately, it’s not relevant since humans don’t require time alignment for accurate sound perception. In regards to matching phase, your statement is more accurate. However, it’s also true that inverting the phase on a single sub, in a room with multiple subs, can improve perceived bass performance.
I agree with @noble100 If your speakers are generally of the full range variety, no need to add an additional electronic crossover to the mix. KISS applies here, less electronic artifacts, the better.
it is not fine to run satellites full range while adding subs for three
reasons. First is you miss the opportunity to lower distortion and
increase head room significantly in the satellites. Second is you make
integration much more difficult. You are down where the wavelengths are
over 10 feet up to 30 feet. Unless you are using digital bass management
matching phase and time are difficult, usually by trial and error
moving the speakers and perhaps by using a phase control on the sub.
Without a two way crossover there will be more overlap making the
problem worse.
I get the part about distortion and headroom in the mains (which you are calling 'satellites'). Its an issue that has concerned me. But as far as getting matching time and phase, below 80Hz its simply not a thing. The reason why has been explained here several times so I'm not going to repeat it.
I ordered a pair of the Swarm subs to supplement my Classic Audio Loudspeakers which are flat to 20 Hz. The problem is I have a standing wave at the listening chair and too much bass elsewhere. So I only need two subs and I got Swarms since they are designed to operate inside the room boundary effect. I need them to be against the walls out of the way. Here are the instructions Duke sent along. When you look at his comments, its obvious that all the things that you are commenting about are on his mind as well, but are easily solved without resorting to DSP:
You MIGHT try this: Start the subwoofer amp's phase control at 90 degrees (that may change later in the process), and wire the two subs in opposite polarity from one another. This will tend to prevent them from making the low bass region too loud, while they are improving the in-room bass smoothness. If the two Swarm subs are to the left and right of the listening area, this may also increase the sense of immersion in a large acoustic space.
I normally leave the 18 Hz protective highpass filter ON, but that's up to you. Also, have the "Bass Boost" off. These controls are on the back of the amp.
As a suggested starting point, going from left to right across the front of the subwoofer amp, first the EQ: Frequency 18; Bandwidth .1; Level "0". This effectively turns the EQ "off", so it's in reserve in case we need it.
Next the other controls: Phase 90 degrees; Frequency 10:00 (about 75 Hz); and Gain at 11:00.
If you are going to be "dialing in" the subs by ear, here is the sequence of events that I suggest (you can also use this sequence if you're using measurements):
1. First, adjust the Gain for best sound. This is the control which will make the most difference.
2. Next, adjust the Frequency. This will make the next most difference.
3. Cycle back through Gain and Frequency at least once.
4. Adjust the Phase. This will make the least amount of difference.
5. If there is too much bottom end, try plugging one port, and then unplug that one and try plugging the other. If it's still too much, plug 'em both.
6. If there is not enough at the bottom end, try putting both subs back in "normal" polarity. If you lose smoothness from doing this, go back to having one in reversed polarity and plan on using the single band of parametric EQ.
7. If there is still a problem area, OR if you need to boost the very bottom end, use the parametric EQ. Unless you have measurements, expect some trial-and-error.
8. Cycle back through Gain - Frequency - Phase one last time.
It may still take several days before the Gain is dialed in exactly right. There are two reasons for this. First, the ear is especially sensitive to changes in SPL in the bass region, so a small change makes a larger perceptual difference than you would have expected. Second, the little knobs on that Dayton Audio amplifier are maddeningly small, so it's real easy to move the knob more than you intended.
Having had some exposure to only marginally integrated subs, leaves me to keep my wishes clear of any subs rocking my guts. (I'm not into 'thunder and lighting' AV shows either.) So, 'Horses for courses' I'd say.
@justmetoo — I’d say you’d do well to go hear a system with well integrated subs as you’re completely missing (and mis-categorizing) the benefits they can provide. And subs could also actually help alleviate the slight bass overload issue you’re experiencing. Keep an open mind on this and you might be rewarded greatly.
... If your speakers are generally of the full range variety, no need to add an additional electronic crossover to the mix. KISS applies here, less electronic artifacts, the better.
It depends on the specific set-up and quality of the digital cross-over (which needn’t be expensive per se); where well-chosen it can, potentially, lead to an even better outcome with the main speakers high-passed. For this to have the best effect (i.e.: a HP on the mains) it seems generally accepted that a cross-over no lower than ~80Hz leads to the best outcome in taking advantage of relieving the mains (+ their amp(s)) from the central to lower bass, leading to 6-10dB more headroom and a likely cleaner, more effortless reproduction (with 2-way main speakers the benefits of a HP may be even more pronounced as this more obviously affects midrange cleanliness).
Such an approach however may call for added attention in regards to subs placement being in symmetry with the mains, as directivity will have a bigger say with a chosen, higher XO-frequency. Theory may dictate it’s difficult to nigh on impossible to localize bass even with a XO up to 100Hz or a bit higher to the mains, but when practically experimented with I’ve found placing a pair of subs symmetrical to the mains is very beneficial, even when crossed into the 70’s.
This type of set-up with two symmetrically placed subs would still be compatible as a future DBA, as additional subs could be crossed lower and placed more freely to best take advantage of smoothing out room modes, or where ever interior decoration may dictate them to be placed. In fact that’s what I may intend at a future point, adding to my existing two subs.
For all its apparent prowess a DBA set-up as configured with the mains run full-range doesn’t take advantage of the potential gains to be had with a HP on the mains and a higher XO here. Added component complexity in the form of a quality digital XO - while justified, to my ears, run in the signal chain over passive speakers - mayn’t be so in every case; my set-up is fully active via separate components, and as such the digital cross-over used is, by necessity, in the signal chain to begin with acting as the XO (without ANY passive filter components) for both the mains and subs, and so a high-pass on the mains isn’t adding more physical components, but simply an extra high-pass digitally.
Atmasphere, phase is only half the issue time is the other one. I find it rather comical that people can say phase is not an issue. Wire one of your speakers 180 degrees out of phase and what happens to the bass. Any fundamental from impulsive bass sounds such as bass drums disappears. Most people would not notice this because their systems do not produce these fundamentals in the first place and I think this is what most of the mythology stems from. Now it is true that the wavelengths are very long and physically getting a subwoofer 180 degrees out of phase would mean backing it up 15 feet and the degree of out of phaseness depends on the frequency. But, if you do that you have now created a 15 msec delay between arrival times making the situation even worse. Accurate bass transients at the listening position at least, requires the arrival times of the sound from each speaker to be exactly the same with the signal being in phase. In order to do this you need to be able to measure what is going on and then make the appropriate adjustments. In my case the computer makes the adjustments for me. I also have the ability to manually change delays and phase so I can demonstrate to you exactly what happens to bass transients. These are not something that you just hear by the way. They are something that you also feel. Now, I use four subwoofers but they are arranged in a specific way for a reason. They produce a single wave front without interference from the side walls floor or ceiling. There is essentially no back wall because of the way I designed the room. That wave front gets to my recliner at exactly the same time and in perfect phase at all frequencies as that of the satellites or main speakers. Swarm systems where you are placing the subwoofers at various random points in the room is a way of dealing with your typical room acoustics. It is not necessarily the best way to integrate subwoofers with your main loudspeakers. Whether or not you can actually make it work satisfactorily? I have no idea. I have not measured a system set up that way.
Nobil100, it is not just what you hear, it is what you feel. Eventually you will get a proper crossover and learn. Unfortunately, accurate bass below 40 Hz is a rarity is home systems. In order to use subwoofers at the state of the art you need digital bass management. Without it you are lost. If you think you can get it right just by listening...just keep listening. Listen to live performances in smaller venues like jazz clubs. See an artist like Dave Holland then buy one of his records. Are you even close?
Adding subwoofers under the main speakers is just a cheap easy way to do it. The manufacturers would not be able to sell subwoofers otherwise. The Swarm system is a great way to deal with room acoustics which do cause a large share of the problems related to bass reproduction but not all of them.
I find it rather comical that people can say phase is not an issue. Wire
one of your speakers 180 degrees out of phase and what happens to the
bass.
@mijostyn Generally speaking, if you have a DBA setup, two of the subs will be in front and in phase with each other and the mains. But the other two may not- take a look at Duke's instructions above. Below 80Hz time alignment simply isn't an issue.
Its great that you were able to build your room to prevent standing waves (which is hard for me to understand how that is possible). In such a situation a DBA does not make much sense. Most people do not have that luxury!! But that is such an exception to the norm that in a nutshell, your situation does not exist for most people. But having such a room, you must be aware that your comments, while correct for you, really won't apply to anyone else.
cakyol:"It is all a personal taste. Some do like it, some do not. I do."
Hello cakyol,
Overall, I agree with your statement about supplementing the bass of the main speakers in a stereo system and room with subs. For readers of this thread who are considering adding one or more subs to their room or just want to learn more about how to do it well, however, I think it’d be beneficial to elaborate a bit. In my opinion, it’s very unfortunate and misleading when those opposed to the use of subs falsely portray the effects of subs as ’boom, boom, boom, one note bass’, ’subs are only good for ht’ and ’subs just draw attention to themselves and are too difficult to integrate well with the main speakers’. From my perspective and experience, these types of statements are just very obvious and reliable indicators that the commenter has failed to implement 1 or more subs in their own system, are simply describing the results of their personal unsuccessful sub integration attempts,, are unaware of how to do it well and, therefore, have never experienced the high quality bass performance and seamless integration when 1 or more subs are incorporated in a room and system skillfully. My experience is that good bass performance can be achieved, at a single designated listening position, in most rooms utilizing 1 or 2 subs provided the subs are optimally positioned in the room, and in relation to the LP, through the use of the sub crawl, automated room correction or in room electronic measurements. My definition of ’good bass performance’ is bass that is solid, powerful, detailed, tonally accurate and natural along with being well integrated with the main speakers. I believe in the axiom, however, that 2 subs perform about twice as well as 1 sub and 4 subs perform about twice as well as 2 subs. The main reason for my belief in this axiom is personal experience with its veracity in my own system and room. I find it amusing that some sub naysayers attempt to discredit this axiom by suggesting the use of 8 or 16 subs, wouldn’t that provide even better bass performance? Well, the answer is a definitive yes, in-room bass performance is improved in direct relation to the number of subs being utilized in a given room, according to scientific experiments and research conducted by acoustic experts Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Floyd Toole and Todd Welti of Harman International. Importantly, this independently verified sub research also discovered that in-room bass performance improved significantly with each sub added up to the threshold of 4 subs and that each sub added beyond 4 only improved bass performance to a smaller and more marginal extent. This research result, along with the fact that there’s a practical limit to the number of subs that individuals will accept in their rooms, are the rationale for the Audio Kinesis Swarm and Debra complete kit DBA systems, along with most custom DBA concept sub systems, typically utilizing 4 subs or less. Based on my experience, there are 3 main benefits of adding a 2nd sub to a single sub system: 1. The overall system bass power and bass dynamics capacities are increased, since bass is cumulative in a room and the number of subs has been doubled, which results in the bass being more capable of faithfully reproducing whatever the bass demands of the source material may be. 2. Bass distortion is reduced, since each sub is operating at a reduced level and well within its limits. 3. The other general benefits of utilizing multiple subs in a room also begin to take effect and become noticeable with the use of 2 subs. Qualities such as increased bass smoothness, speed, detail, sense of ease, improved stereo sound stage illusion and better integration with the main speakers. When I began using 4 subs in my room, I experienced further enhancements to all the 2 sub benefits mentioned earlier along with an immersive quality to the bass and an absolutely seamless integration of the improved bass with my main speakers.
I thought I wanted more bass in my stereo room so I grabbed the dolly and rolled my old mirage with 2 opposite side firing 12” woofers, set it between the two speakers and ran a sweep. Amazing, reasonably flat response to 20 hz. I didn’t care for the way the hvac ducts were rattling and tbh getting a stereo pair set for room gain, or when the bass is locked in 45 hz is great for 90 % of the music I play. Subs in my truck are another story.
Hello It's a matter of preference I think it depends on the speakers your powering and the type of music your listening to also. I am using a set of large speakers that don't need a sub there set to full range and 2 channel is the way to go for me some others may not agree but it's what you prefer. I like to know that I can have concert level sound with just 2 good full range speakers and leave the bells and whistles off. Have a great day!
Atmasphere, I am going to disagree on this one. My experience is different but I think I might go about it differently than most. Up at the crossover point I am just listening and I do not want to hear it. The subwoofers should just disappear(remember I use a crossover point of 125 Hz). It has to sound like I am listening to one speaker. As I evaluate lower down I go from listening to feeling. Do I feel that kick drum the way I do at the club. Are those low synthesizer notes shaking me the way they should. Does the room move under low organ pedal. Hearing is one thing feeling is another. Part of the thrill of live music are the visceral sensations you get. These sensations are missing or greatly attenuated in most home systems. I started playing around with subwoofers in 1978 for this very reason. I wanted to feel as if I were at a live performance. Again, I can now move a subwoofer 15 feet just by delaying it 15 msec. I can change crossover points and slopes on the fly at one Hz increments 2nd to 10th order. You can hear these changes immediately. It is easy to demonstrate that with everything aligned perfectly those visceral sensations come through in spades any movement away causes instant deterioration in those sensations up to completely obliterating them. Dukes instructions represent a reasonable way to set up his system without expensive test equipment. You can purchase his system for a very reasonable price commensurate with what most of us have to spend on a system. Brilliant. Using modern resources you can however go beyond this. You just have to be willing to put in the time and money.
drlisz, the type of music has nothing to do with this unless you only listen to string quartets. A good system will play anything equally well. If it can't it is not a good system.
waves of low frequencies are very large so the spread all over quite well. A nice 12 inch drive does not seem to need any help in a room that’s say 15x20. Smaller subs I guess might be spotty and maybe more than one might make sense.
Further, does it really matter where the sub is positionEd? If I blindfolded someone and said find the sub, could you find it?
Hello emergingsoul. Here are some answers to your statements and questions from your last post on this thread:
emergingsoul:" I don’t get multiple subs. waves of low frequencies are very large so the spread all over quite well. A nice 12 inch drive does not seem to need any help in a room that’s say 15x20. Smaller subs I guess might be spotty and maybe more than one might make sense."
noble100: Low frequency sound waves are not actually very large but they are very long. A deep bass 20 Hz sound wave is about 56’ long. It’s also not true that the 12" woofer drivers in your pair of B&W floorstanding tower speakers don’t need any help in your 15’x20’ room. You are correct, however, that the bass sound waves launched by the woofers in your speakers do radiate outward in all directions. Once your pair of tower speakers launch their bass sound waves into the room in an omnidirectional pattern, however, the physical dynamics involved do become a bit more complex. Once these long bass sound waves are launched into your room, they proceed in an outward direction until they encounter a room boundary (floor, ceiling or wall) and are reflected in a different direction. These reflected bass sound waves then proceed in a redirected path until they encounter another room boundary, run out of energy and decay or collide with another bass sound wave. Whenever these reflected bass sound waves collide into each other, they create what is called a ’room bass mode’ at the specific room point of the sound waves collision. When these bass room modes are detected by our ears, they are processed by our brains and a perception is created of hearing one of three possibilities, depending on the angle and direction of the collision, at this specific room location: a ’bass peak’ that’s perceived as a bass overemphasis, a ’bass dip’ that’s perceived as a bass attenuation or a ’bass null’ that’s perceived as an absence of bass. At this point, it’s necessary to introduce another factor into my explanation of your room and system bass dynamics realities, the use of fixed position bass sources. Since you probably position your main speakers in your room and in relation to your designated listening position like most of us do, to optimize the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance, this creates an impediment to optimizing bass performance at the LP. This is because there are only 2 bass sources (your pair of B&W floorstanding tower speakers) launching bass sound waves into your room and they’re permanently affixed in their floorstanding tower speaker cabinets. This means these 2 bass sources are unable to be independently positioned in your room, and in relation to your listening position, to optimize bass performance at your LP. The main issue with having fixed position bass sources in your room, such as your pair of floorstanding tower speakers, is that you’re unable to ensure there are no room bass modes existing at your designated listening position. This means you could have a significant bass room mode at your LP, which you would perceive as a significant bass peak, dip or null, and the only remedy is to independently position and configure 1 or more bass sources/subs in your room. It’s also important to understand the well understood psychoacoustic principles that come into effect when multiple bass sources/subs are utilized in a room. For example, the 3-4 sub distributed bass array (DBA) concept that provides near state of the art bass performance to virtually any domestic sized room and seamlessly integrates with any pair and type of main speakers, creates the perception of being in a larger space even in small rooms and is the basic concept behind the award winning Audio Kinesis Swarm 4-sub DBA complete kit system linked to here:
This 3-4 sub DBA concept, whether a custom system or an AK complete kit system, is based on a well understood, but somewhat counter intuitive, psychoacoustic principle that relies on increasing, rather than decreasing, the number of bass modes existing in the room. Adding bass sources/subs to a room increases the number of bass sound waves launched into the room, which in turn and reliably increases the number of bass sound wave collisions in the room which results in an increase in the number of bass modes present in the room. Fortunately, this is where our brains and psychoacoustics take over, make sense of it all and ’do the magic that they do’. Psycho-acousticians (yes, that’s what they’re actually referred to as.) have discovered that when our brains are confronted with a sound environment containing an excess of bass room modes, they process and make sense of this chaos by summing and averaging these numerous bass modes by frequency. As a result, our brains create a perception of the bass in the room as being powerful, smooth, fast, detailed, tonally accurate, dynamic and seamlessly integrated with the main speakers. I realize this all sounds too good to be true but I can attest to the fact that my AK Debra 4-sub complete kit DBA definitely provides these spectacular results in my combo 2-ch music and 5.4 surround sound home theater system and 23’16’ room for the past 5+ years. Attempting to spread the word on the DBA’s incredible effectiveness has, admittedly, been somewhat frustrating since I understand all my words may convince noone but, even a brief audition of a properly positioned and configured DBA, would likely convince virtually anyone. If you feel curious and adventuress, emergingsoul, I suggest you could begin to experiment, and experience the benefits of the DBA concept, by creating a basic 3-sub DBA in your room. You could consider and utilize your existing pair of main speakers as 2 fixed position subs, obtain a good quality new or used sub as sub #3 and optimally position it in your room using the ’sub crawl method’. You can google the term for details.
emergingsoul: " Further, does it really matter where the sub is positioned? If I blindfolded someone and said find the sub, could you find it?"
noble100: Most humans cannot localize (determine specifically where a sound is coming from) sound tones that have frequencies below about 80 Hz. So, as long as the sub’s low frequency crossover filter control is set at about 80 Hz or lower, the sub should be able to be positioned anywhere in your room.
That is a reasonable explanation Tim until you get to the radiation pattern of line sources. Line sources project power (volume) better than point sources. To quality as a line source the speaker either has to be taller than the longest wavelength it is to reproduce or end at two boundaries like the floor and ceiling. People think of ESL being rather polite but if you make one 8 feet tall and put it in an 8 foot room the gloves come right off. The problem for subwoofers is that if you put a point source subwoofer system under a line source speaker it will disappear as you move away from the speaker. Now, if drivers are closer together then 1/2 the shortest wavelength they are to reproduce than they will function acoustically as one driver. This is the principle behind the D'Appolito array. Four subwoofers running as high as 125 Hz this means they have to be no further than 4 feet apart. But to do 20 Hz the array would have to be longer than 52 feet. Fortunately rooms have walls and we can use them as boundaries so as long as your subwoofer array stretches from wall to wall you are in business. Thus my subwoofer system is functioning as one large linear array subwoofer producing one large wavefront. Remember line sources do not radiate up or down. If you but the subs against the front wall there is no early reflection point off that wall so only the floor and ceiling are comb filtering. On top of this you get all the benefits of a swarm system. Moving to the swarm as is normally used with say an 80 Hz crossover, to function as one driver the the subs would have to be within 8 feet of each other which is actually doable in most rooms. If you kept them all within 8 feet from one to the next what would happen? Tim, why don't you do that experiment and let us know what happens. I have no idea.
My experience is different but I think I might go about it differently
than most. Up at the crossover point I am just listening and I do not
want to hear it. The subwoofers should just disappear(remember I use a
crossover point of 125 Hz). It has to sound like I am listening to one
speaker. As I evaluate lower down I go from listening to feeling. Do I
feel that kick drum the way I do at the club. Are those low synthesizer
notes shaking me the way they should. Does the room move under low organ
pedal. Hearing is one thing feeling is another. Part of the thrill of
live music are the visceral sensations you get. These sensations are missing or greatly attenuated in most home systems.
@mijostyn You mentioned that your room has not standing waves which is a bit of an achievement so naturally you would not set up your system the same way.
Crossing over the woofers at 125Hz requires that you do what you are doing. Try crossing over so that there's no output at 80Hz and see how much correction you need.
I get similar impact on my speakers at home, which are flat to 20Hz. The problem I run into is a standing wave that causes a loss of bass on certain notes at the listening chair- they are certainly there in other places in the room! That's why I got a pair of the Swarm subs, just to break up the standing waves. The speakers can shake the organs in your chest and the cuffs of your pants and they don't sound boomy.
atmasphere:"
I get similar impact on my speakers at home, which are flat to 20Hz. The problem I run into is a standing wave that causes a loss of bass on certain notes at the listening chair- they are certainly there in other places in the room! That's why I got a pair of the Swarm subs, just to break up the standing waves. The speakers can shake the organs in your chest and the cuffs of your pants and they don't sound boomy. "
Hello atmasphere,
My main floorstanding speakers are 6'x2' planar-magnetic panels that only have a rated bass extension down to 35 Hz and also lack the ability to reproduce powerful bass dynamics. I believe the ability of a home audio system to powerfully and accurately reproduce the bottom 2 octaves of bass and bass dynamics, like that heard and felt when listening to live music, are what distinguishes a good hi-fi from a high quality hi-end system. These are the tactile and palpable qualities, along with a tonally accurate and detailed midrange and treble presentation with powerful dynamics and three dimensional stereo imaging, that are able to create the very realistic sound stage illusions in our rooms.
The AK Debra 4-sub DBA system has proven to be an ideal bass supplement in my system and room, not only providing my system with the lacking deep and powerful bass and bass dynamics in the lowest 2 octaves but also doing so while seamlessly integrating with my main speakers. And yes, it is capable of shaking the organs in my chest and probably the cuffs in my pants, if I ever become so dorky that I actually have cuffs in my pants.
mijostyn:"
If you but the subs against the front wall there is no early reflection point off that wall so only the floor and ceiling are comb filtering. On top of this you get all the benefits of a swarm system. Moving to the swarm as is normally used with say an 80 Hz crossover, to function as one driver the the subs would have to be within 8 feet of each other which is actually doable in most rooms. If you kept them all within 8 feet from one to the next what would happen? Tim, why don't you do that experiment and let us know what happens. I have no idea."
Hello mijostyn,
From what I've read about bass line arrays and your description of yours, I have little doubt that it performs as well as you state it does, maybe even better than my 4-sub DBA in the right room. I would love to try one or at least hear one in action sometime. However, I think I'd probably need a more agreeable room and wife to do so. I'd also be concerned about the effect it might have on the sound from my main speakers positioned in front of this solid bass wave and bass cancellation effects when this solid wave reflected back off my room's rear wall.
...
It has to sound like I am listening to one speaker. As I evaluate lower down I go from listening to feeling. Do I feel that kick drum the way I do at the club. Are those low synthesizer notes shaking me the way they should. Does the room move under low organ pedal. Hearing is one thing feeling is another. Part of the thrill of live music are the visceral sensations you get. These sensations are missing or greatly attenuated in most home systems. I started playing around with subwoofers in 1978 for this very reason. I wanted to feel as if I were at a live performance. Again, I can now move a subwoofer 15 feet just by delaying it 15 msec. I can change crossover points and slopes on the fly at one Hz increments 2nd to 10th order. You can hear these changes immediately. ...
This. Implemented with DSP tools on the fly, at the listening position and a full range of parameters, proper integration of a pair of preferable stereo-coupled and symmetrically (to the mains) placed subs certainly becomes easier and a more likely actuality. I prefer crossing over to the mains in the 80-100Hz range (or higher if dictated by the mains and subs upper range performance permitted), as this also makes the positive effect of high-passing the mains more pronounced while generally, to my ears, making for a better integration between the mains and subs. Seamless integration is more than smooth frequency response for sure, and I couldn't imagine listening without subs implemented as lined out above, be that for both music and movies.
"Do you use a subwoofer when listening to stereo?" Not one but four. I am another convert -- and now huge proponent -- of using a distributed bass array. The change is gigantic. Unparalleled.
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