Do speaker wires matter
this Electro-Voice E-V SIX spec sheet https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/E-V%20Six%20EDS.pdf 18 ga or larger, zip or lamp cord quite satisfactory, and behind molding or under carpet, 300-ohm TV twin lead |
You could have probably read @Panzrwagn 's post and deleted all the others and got as much out of the replies. No your amp is not ideal for your speakers but you said you can barely hear the tweeters with your ears right up against them. Tweeters are normally quite a bit quieter than mids but usually you can easily pick out the highs but need to be close to be sure it's the tweeters. The speaker wires are not the issue. It is unlikely the amp. As noted they won't go loud but you will lose bass not the highs in a situation like that. If those tweeters were ferrofluid cooled, it may have dried up. Could also be dry capacitors. Electrolytic caps were common for tweeters even in high end back then. These would be 83db anechoic. They are bipolar so room response will typically be much better. Apples and oranges. |
I have both the Mirage 3 si and 2 si and Man are they POWER HUNGRY!!.I was in a mid size room and i just could not get them to wake up, the sound was sooo dull and lifeless, i tried three power amps from 150 watts to 200 watts!!! and i still had to get my fix back by going back to my Khorns,i Had Cardas speaker cables on them and still nothing, THAN I PULL OUT THE CROWN STUDIO REFERENCE!!! and my GOD!!! the walls was PULSATING.they need juice. Michael Jackson's JAM was hitting so HARD my neighbor turned down his music to hear mine, YEAH BOY!!! |
Speaker cables do make a difference. For decades I scoffed at the idea and thought that just current capability would matter. For decades I used 10ga speaker wire bought at the hardware store. It sounded good ....until I bought some reasonably priced 10ga oxygen free copper speaker cable. Wow! The high frequency was better, symbols had better decay, a brightness without the harshness like the old cable. I did not have to spend thousands to hear this change. Also dynamics increased. I see many ads for cables way out of my budget. The brand was "installgear" and I am sure for most audiophiles is not good enough. I love music and demand as good of sound as I can afford. I have DYI speakers that bring out the best, or worst and not forgiving of bad recordings or original EQ being right. In my case, yes! Cables do make a difference. Plan this in your budget according to what you can afford. |
Another Classic He said ,, back in the 70's or 80's my brother in law sold stereo equipment.in those days he said that speaker wires don't matte! :::: In the 70,s who was making wire?? early Mid 80.s ok, more and more manufacturers . Selling audio at Walmart don't cut it . also who listens to a brother in law? |
I use a quality 10 gauge speaker on everything in my system. Any additional expense for supposed higher grade wire is a waste of money. It’s a total snake oil business. People do not hear cable. It just makes them feel special having it back there. I’ve seen power cables that cost more than my amps. Silly. ..... What is silly is this post .Id say if you honestly think cabling is snake oil either your system is junk ,your ears or both ..10 gauge wire,omg did you really just post that on an audiophile forum? |
Those speakers are pretty nice but you need a heck of a lot more than a vintage integrated with 26 watts to drive them. They are ridiculously low sensitivity. And, being a dipole speaker, room treatment and placement becomes even more critical. I guess it comes down to what you want to hold on to more....the Marantz or the Mirage. But they are not a match. |
I use a quality 10 gauge speaker on everything in my system. Any additional expense for supposed higher grade wire is a waste of money. It’s a total snake oil business. People do not hear cable. It just makes them feel special having it back there. I’ve seen power cables that cost more than my amps. Silly. |
I had M-1’s for years. Love the soundstage. I used to watch Henry Kloss upside down double stack them with 8 amps. They need appropriate power, mucho. I used a Sim W-5, 185 watts into 8 ohms, double that into 4, was barely enough because the M-1’s really didn’t come alive until pushed =loud. If that’s your bag then you need the power. As myself and others with experience have already iterated, friendly speakers that are efficient is the name of the game for many now a days. However, being that you have a pair, after all, they were a product of Canadien research, enjoy the education and pick up a quality used powerhouse amp. Give Paul Egan of Syzygy Subwoofers a call. He was intimately involved with Mirage. Most of all, enjoy the ride. |
Like in a good recipe everything matters.... But some ingredients are so much important than the rest is way less important and you can live without them temporarily or for a great period of time... Like someone ( Erik_Squires) who know something about speakers just said a couple of posts behind mine : the room acoustic is very important way more than cables... Cables matters but can wait if you have already some good one... I will mention also that in my experience the other 2 embeddings are more impactful than even the choice of cable... Mechanical controls of vibration and the noise floor of the house and not only of the audio system... Then dont bother with cable now, choose a not too costly good one, and think about these 3 embeddings or at least about the room acoustic... No speakers can beat the room were they live, NONE..... Merry Christmas |
If you had said the wires were 30 feet long, I’d say, look for wire with relatively low inductance. (High inductance will cause a rolloff of high frequencies and may interact with the speaker and/or amp.) It’s doesn’t have to be expensive -- the Belden wires sold by Blue Jeans Cable measure well in that regard (and others). |
The Mirage M1s are an interesting speaker. Not only are they big and heavy, they are dipoles - they radiate both forward and backward. As a result, speaker placement is absolutely critical - they cannot be placed up against a wall with any expectation of sounding good.
Gross sound quality for these guys will be more a placement issue than any other single factor.
You might want to read the Stereophile review here: https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/689mirage/index.html Regarding your amp, let's set the amplifier myth to rest - a bigger amp will play louder, but not necessarily better. While the M1s aren't the most difficult load to drive, they aren't particularly easy, either. Marantz amps typically handle lower impedance load adequately, without triggering their current limiters that protect the amp but absolutely trash both the speakers and the sound. At 83dB/W/M per speaker, a pair adds 3 dB - 86dB, actually pretty loud. going to 2 watts, 89dB. add 10dB (10X the power - 2X10 =20W) for dynamic peaks in the music, 99db. So a 2226, while pretty low powered for these speakers, should push the M1s to reasonable levels. Disco loud, no. Living room loud, yes. A 100W/Ch amp would move the scale up 6dB, a 200W/Ch amp, 9dB. At normal listening levels, even a 2226B would be just cruising. And while a bigger and better amp will sound, well, bigger and better, it's not going to have much impact on the sound quality issues ("The tweeters are not giving the detailed highs.") you are describing. Speaker cable? Unless you are running 20 or 30 feet per speaker or more, 14 Gauge Clear vinyl zip cable is perfectly adequate from a power perspective, the power loss is insignificant.. You might be able to notice a minor improvement by spending hundreds of dollars, but only after other factors are attended to. There is a final consideration. The Mirage M1 is more than capable of revealing shortcomings in your source material, most notably digital sources. After properly positioning your M1s away from room boundaries, consider the source. If you are listening to your average streaming from, say, Amazon, or God forbid, Sirius, the 'digititus' from low bit rate, repeated compression, encoding and decoding, would be quite apparent on speakers of this caliber. |
@em2music: I was not familiar with your speakers but looked them up — very nice gift someone made to you, especially if the drivers are in good shape! With half the speakers rear-firing, it would seem that positioning out from the rear wall/corners would be important to the final sound. And how nice to have such a large room to experiment with placement. Have fun! |
8 sets of comments from M1 owners you may find helpful. http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/mirage-loudspeakers/m-1si.html |
Wow... thank you so much for all of this insight! I now realize that I am dealing with way more factors than I could have imagined. Elliott, I will think on using the crown powerbase 2. I have a friend who will also let me borrow his amp. Thank you for the detailed instructions on how to set that up. missstl thank you for explaining the difference in sound the mirages put out vs others. There’s so much I am unaware of on this topic. I will see how it performs with a different amp. My speakers are in my carpeted finished basement with 6’10” h ceilings. There is also some clutter as well which could interfere. I don’t know the exact square footage. The most wide open section approximately 42’x 20’. |
Issues not discussed yet -- at what volume do you listen and how big is the room? The power needed by a speaker is logarithmic, not linear. At the sensitivity noted in earlier posts, 1 watt of amp power should give you 83 dB of volume at one meter from the speaker. Double that to 2 watts for 86 dB, double again to 4 watts for 89 dB, 8 watts for 92 dB and so on. That's for an average volume level, so you still need some extra power for dynamic peaks. The sound level drops as you get further away from the speaker, but the room can add back some reinforcement. Larger rooms need more power to achieve the same volume. So, back to the first question -- how loud do you listen? For me, 85 dB average at my sitting position is about as loud as I like it these days. I've actually measured the amp's output at this volume and, depending on the music, I use about 1.5 watts average to hit 85 dB at my listening position with 88 dB sensitivity speakers in a 15' X 23' room. With your speakers, that 1.5 watt output would need to be roughly 5 or 6 watts. Keep in mind you need more than that to handle the dynamic peaks. Now, if I were a headbanger and wanted 100 dB+ volume in the room, I'd need roughly 100 watts, plus more for peaks. Keep in mind all of these are just rough approximations. One of the takeaways is you need to get your hands on a sound level meter. That's the only way to get a solid idea of your volume needs. Besides a dedicated meter, there are also apps you can buy for your smart phone, though the calibration accuracy might be dicier. But, if you were happy with low to moderate volumes, 26 watts a channel might be more than enough. However, keep in mind that we haven't even scratched the surface. Placement of the speakers within the room is a critical issue. Also, the manner in which this amp interacts with your speakers is also important. Some speakers have very demanding impedance curves that can really tax an amp. Some amps just can't handle certain speakers. You might see if you can temporarily borrow a different amp to see if that makes a difference. I'd get everything else working better before I started worrying about cables. As you can see, there are a lot of factors to consider. But the more you know about your listening needs, the more likely you are to reach a solution that pleases you. |
Had a pair of Mirage M-5si. A Rotel 990 power amp drove those to good effect (into 4 ohms was putting out well over 300wpc) Phenomenal room lock in the bass from two 6.5 inch woofers! The mirage speakers were clearly voiced on the dark side so don't expect a lot of sparkle from the tweeter regardless of amp/cables. |
OP stated he has a 26wpc amp with 8 ohm output impedance. His speakers are 83dB, 6ohm. The speakers are not the best match for sure, as he will benefit from moving to a speaker presenting an easier load. A Tekton 4 ohm speaker wouldn't be my first choice (although it would "work") and I wouldn't want to pair that amp with a speaker designed by someone who claims 8 ohm designs are obsolete anyway. There is a whole world of 8 ohm speakers with 90dB+ sensitivity to consider based on your sonic tastes. Don't let anyone try to direct you into just one brand....that only means they have an agenda. Way too many choices in the market for that ridiculousness. |
"Never even consider anything less than 92dB. Just cross it off your list. Too many fabulous sounding 95dB+ speakers out there to be killing yourself trying to solve a problem so easily avoided. " Funny! The few Tekton speakers I've seen the measurements for have been under 92db. Although they are stated to be higher. |
Since it hasn't been mentioned yet the speakers being dipoles need to be placed fairly far out from the front wall in order to balance the sound. I would try them 5'-10' out if possible playing around with toe in, maybe even zero toe in. However, them being too close should not decrease the HF balance (quite the opposite I would think as most of the cancelation would be in the mid/lower frequencies). DeKay |
"Never even consider anything less than 92dB. Just cross it off your list. Too many fabulous sounding 95dB+ speakers out there to be killing yourself trying to solve a problem so easily avoided. " Ok,so we cross off most of the Wilson line,the Vivid line,the Dynaudio line ,the Harbeth line, the Focal line ..on and on and on...thats the dumbest thing I've read on this site in a long time outside of your constant Tekton shill post..give us all a break with this ,please |
I bet those speakers sound great!. I would like to hear them. Efficiency: your speakers are very low efficiency. 83 db/1w/1m means they ONLY make 83db sound volume when given 1 watt measured 1 meter away, They need far more power than your Marantz, your Crown is plenty. Happily, your Crown has gain controls on the back. like volume controls would be if on the front. https://rocknrollvintage.com/listing/crown-power-base-2-power-amplifier/14177109 1. Hear your speakers with enough juice, your Crown Amp, your existing speaker cables. a. First, turn Crown’s rear gain controls down to zero. spin them full turn several times to ’clean’ the internal contacts, then down to zero. b. One Favorite CD with highs/mids/lows (see h below) c. CD player direct to the Crown as a test. d. Crown direct to speakers using existing speaker wire. e. ON, hit play on CD player, wait till it’s into a track first. f. Now, you can increase the rear gain controls bit by bit until you get a satisfactory volume. g. turn the gain down low, some but not a lot of sound: listen to each driver to verify they are good. h. DO NOT try another CD, without first turning the Crown’s rear gain controls back down. Some CD’s have significantly higher output that others. 2. TEST the MARANTZ as a Preamp to the Crown. Marantz’s controls might be dirty, it might have an unknown problem, that is why it is the 2nd test, after you have determined the speakers are fine with the Crown. a. Unplugged: turn all volume/tone/selector controls several full turns to ’clean’ them. Good enough for this test. b. Crown Gain in the middle of it’s range to start c. Marantz volume down. d. Same CD e. CD player to Marantz; Marantz to Crown, Crown to Speakers using same existing speaker wires. f. Marantz Volume up half way IF not too loud. g. Adjust Crown rear gain for good normal listening volume. h. Marantz Volume, fully up too loud? Crown down. Not enough, Crown Up. Note: Marantz controls might need further cleaning. If you hear static, or they seem inconsistent, if you know how, take the bottom off, front plate off, spray them/work them with contact cleaner/lubricant. Clean all the rear jacks while you are at it. |
Sounds reasonable. If the issue is the mirages, you might ask the repair person in Canada if it sounds like a foam repair issue or a driver issue, and feasibility of fixing that. Basement is plenty large enough, though a 5' tall speaker in a 6' tall basement must be a sight. I suspect you'd be better off with the speakers at least 3' away from the rear/side walls. If you google the ancient reviews on the M1s, they may give you their opinion on the topic. Or just experiment. If the speaker works or can be made workable, an idea to save money is to buy used SS amp (of enough watts). Just make sure it has been had capacitors replaced (if needed). Let us know how it turns out and how you like them. |
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