Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?
Mechanical grounding or isolation from vibration has been a hot topic as of late. Many know from experience that footers, stands and other vibration technologies impact things that vibrate a lot like speakers, subs or even listening rooms (my recent experience with an "Energy room"). The question is does it have merit when it comes to electronics and if so why? Are there plausible explanations for their effect on electronics or suggested measurement paradigms to document such an effect?
But Geoff your methods kill all vibration..in your own words.
By killing all vibration with your indiscriminate design and methods you are eliminating some or all parts of motion that are needed for both speaker and phono reproduction as well as restricting operational directions in all other devices. I hope you understand...or if you don't you can keep looking for another 21 years. Tom
theaudiotweak "But Geoff your methods kill all vibration..in your own words."
exactly! now you’re getting smart.
By killing all vibration with your indiscriminate design and methods you are eliminating some or all parts of motion that are needed for both speaker and phono reproduction as well as restricting operational directions in all other devices. I hope you understand...or if you don’t you can keep looking for another 21 years. Tom
that’s the oldest scam going. Its actually nothing more than a regurgitation of the old Michael Green diatribe, the one that you dudes bought into hook, line and sinker, "let the vibrations free to roam, ignore seismic vibration, the audio signal itself is vibration," and other assorted rubbish.
agear, while that’s somewhat humorous (even though you’ve used that stale joke previously) what’s much funnier is that neither you nor the brain trust at Star Sound seem to know what shear waves are. Just more posturing and name dropping. i hate to judge too harshly but it certainly appears that at UVa the college places more weight on puerile humor than science.
have a nice day
Jeff, you have provided nothing of scientific value to the conversation....just the usual ad hominem drivel.
Please tell us how shear and/or seismic juju effects electronics? Pretend you are back at E-school and your professors are asking you for data. Thus far you have avoided the question.
Goodie, gumdrops! It looks like the Jeff Daniels/ Jim Carrey show is back on! I hate to judge before all the facts are in but this is shaping up to be a fun weekend.
I said it would be fun, but I didn’t say for whom.
My liver was swept under the rug along with all the polarites of shear generated from the bristles of the broom and transmitted into the handle..I know how it works. The answer has always been there you just need to keep looking. Coming up on 21 years and your still wearing brain blinders along with a Daniel Boone hat and fuzzy ear muffs. Tom
"Sorry, this is not biblical and akin to blasphemy."
No disrespect to you intended Geoff,
No offence taken, Dave. The wikipedia discussion of the phrase, God helps thise who help themselves, is provided below for your info.
The phrase "God helps those who help themselves" is a popular motto that emphasizes the importance of self-initiative and agency.
The phrase originated in ancient Greece and may originally have been proverbial. It is illustrated by two of Aesop’s Fables and a similar sentiment is found in ancient Greek drama. Although it has been commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin, the modern English wording appears earlier in Algernon Sidney’s work.
The phrase is often mistaken as a scriptural quote, but is not stated verbatim in the Bible. However, there are many verses which underscore believers’ duties to work both for themselves and their families, such as Proverbs 6:10-11, 12:11, 12:24, 13:4, and I Timothy 5:8.
Very nice and helpful response Geoff. I thank you for it.
My Dad always used to say this as I was growing up and I found myself quoting it often as a young adult, usually as an attitude of condescension toward the less fortunate and destitute I now shamefully admit.
Some very hard knocks over the next period of my life (the unexpected passing of our beautiful 28 year old daughter for one) brought me to point of humble acknowledgement that I could only be restored through the grace of God, not of my own will, thus I am sensitive to this statement for obvious reasons.
Please forgive my personal indulgence here on an audio thread. I apologize for any offense taken by anyone from my remarks.
Isolation from seismic vibration proponent and recording engineer Barry Diament, previously mentioned by myself as introducing me to the concept, had his Soundkeeper Recordings "Equinox" release by Markus Schwartz and Lakou Brooklyn awarded Recording Of The Month in the February 2011 issue of Stereophile Magazine, and is again mentioned by Jim Austin in his November 2016 review of the Mytek D/A Processor/Preamplifier.
You may take that with a grain of salt, as Wolf Garcia proclaimed Mr. Diament "delusional" in his November 28th post in this thread.
What I've found is that all of our components are being substantially inhibited from delivering their best because they are subject to external vibrations. By far, the most sonically and visually degrading are those vibrations in the ground that enter the component via its feet. These seismic vibrations (the ones very low in frequency and amplitude, so tiny we don't even normally feel them) are creating spurious signals within the sensitive circuitry of your components. These spurious signals mix with the real music and video signals to distort them, hardening the treble, thinning the bass, muddying the soundstage and annihilating dynamics. Seismic vibrations add grain to video pictures, ruin color purity and contrast and soften focus.
What kind of spurious signals and how was it measured? Anyone?
What kind of spurious signals and how was it measured? Anyone?
Mommy, why is the sky blue?
😳
I would not expect a technical answer from you at this point. I do realize that NASA custodians are able to retire at 55 with 6 figure pensions (at our expense) and can fritter away their time as you do. As science fiction is your primary focus, any books in the works....?
agear What kind of spurious signals and how was it measured? Anyone?
geoffkait:Mommy, why is the sky blue?
😳
to which agear replied, I would not expect a technical answer from you at this point.
but you're not technical remember? you weren't even able to follow the technical data that's already been presented, including the isolation effectiveness data that a fifth grader would be able to follow.
but you're not technical remember? you weren't even able to follow the technical data that's already been presented, including the isolation effectiveness data that a fifth grader would be able to follow.
you have presented none. lol. Just circular ad hominem babbling and poorly crafted, quasi-mystical science fiction. Next....
If I were ever to create an audio company, one name I would most certainly consider would be Placebo Audio, where "the only limitation is YOU!"
Ethan Winer has made a lot of people mad over the years, and has been banned from multiple forums for doing so. That being said, he does make some cogent points from time to time:
What kind of spurious signals and how was it measured? Anyone?
That should not be hard to do. Place a preamp on the stand to be tested. Run the volume up with a shorted input (phono would be best). Subject the preamp in the stand to a 20Hz tone measured at 90 db at the front panel of the preamp. Observe for the change, if any from the output.
Ethan Winer has made a lot of people mad over the years, and has been banned from multiple forums for doing so.
Part of that is because the guy tends to be a bit of a troll. For example, once he made the claim (and likely still does) that power cords can't make a difference- 'it's a power cord!" was about all you could get out of him. I challenged him to show his measurements, since he's a measurement guy. The funny thing was he didn't have any, and I did. They were pretty easy to obtain, too. When I pointed out that we could see a more than 2 volt drop across the power cord his instant response was that the power cord was a piece of crap. Now that struck me as trying to have it both ways; apparently even by his testimony power cords can make a difference even when they don't.
Then it turned out that his reference amplifier was a Pioneer (keeping in mind he is anti-tube) integrated that cost $600.00 (and as you might expect it did not have an IEC connection to allow for easy power cord exchange...). I and others tried to explain to him that the larger heatsinks, better quality components, larger capacity power transformers and filter caps in the power supplies of high end amps actually made a difference but he wasn't buying it (literally).
After all that he finally did get banned from that site. I don't find him all that credible and often a bit obnoxious, but that's me.
agear: What kind of spurious signals and how was it measured? Anyone?
to which atmasphere replied,
"That should not be hard to do. Place a preamp on the stand to be tested. Run the volume up with a shorted input (phono would be best). Subject the preamp in the stand to a 20Hz tone measured at 90 db at the front panel of the preamp. Observe for the change, if any from the output."
Uh, atmasphere, agear was referring to the Barry Diament isolation system, you know, the roller bearings and air spring thingie. One trusts you don’t actually think your suggestion applies to isolation devices.
Sure- why not? Same test, just using the Diament system.
If you did this all with a sweep tone, it would be possible to show the strengths and weaknesses of the 'isolation' system under test.
Sound Anchors did something very much like this- only they bounced a laser off the surface of the loudspeaker that was mounted on the speaker stand that they were testing. The less noise that the reflected laser beam showed the more effective the stand. They were doing that a good 25 years ago.
"Sure- why not? Same test, just using the Diament system.
If you did this all with a sweep tone, it would be possible to show the strengths and weaknesses of the ’isolation’ system under test."
By subjecting the preamp front panel to a sweep tone how would that test the isolation device? I’m getting the feeling we’re not on the same page. In the case of a preamp on an isolation stand wouldn’t the proper place to apply a force be the bottom of the isolation device? You know, to gauge how well the isolation device rejects vibration coming up from the floor. Vibration produced by Acoustic waves in the room and induced vibration are another story.
Sound Anchors did something very much like this- only they bounced a laser off the surface of the loudspeaker that was mounted on the speaker stand that they were testing. The less noise that the reflected laser beam showed the more effective the stand. They were doing that a good 25 years ago.
There were no speaker isolation stands 25 years ago. Not in the literal sense of the word, anyway. 25 years ago vibration isolation was not even a gleam in some audiophile's eye. Using the laser as you described would not give a sense of how much energy from the speakers was being fed back into the front end electronics via the floor. I’m getting that feeling again we’re not on the same page.
The amount of reflected signal refracted back into the signal path is what's most important. The signal path is all solid materials including their boundaries with other solid materials. You cannot measure refraction with a laser as described. Tom
That should not be hard to do. Place a preamp on the stand to be tested. Run the volume up with a shorted input (phono would be best). Subject the preamp in the stand to a 20Hz tone measured at 90 db at the front panel of the preamp. Observe for the change, if any from the output.
Have you done it? I am assuming no.
Part of that is because the guy tends to be a bit of a troll. For example, once he made the claim (and likely still does) that power cords can't make a difference- 'it's a power cord!" was about all you could get out of him. I challenged him to show his measurements, since he's a measurement guy. The funny thing was he didn't have any, and I did. They were pretty easy to obtain, too. When I pointed out that we could see a more than 2 volt drop across the power cord his instant response was that the power cord was a piece of crap. Now that struck me as trying to have it both ways; apparently even by his testimony power cords can make a difference even when they don't.
Like Mr. Kait, he is a pugilist but has valuable things to say. I am sure he would dispute your revisionist history of things. I am aware of the fact that he can be a flat earther in certain areas. He is certainly not a fan of Starsound's approach to room management. I do know he is a fan of cats.
After all that he finally did get banned from that site. I don't find him all that credible and often a bit obnoxious, but that's me.
In and off itself, that does not mean anything. I have had friends banned from sites for stupid reasons.....much like the gov't cracking down on "fake" news.
Sure- why not? Same test, just using the Diament system.
If you did this all with a sweep tone, it would be possible to show the strengths and weaknesses of the 'isolation' system under test.
Sound Anchors did something very much like this- only they bounced a laser off the surface of the loudspeaker that was mounted on the speaker stand that they were testing. The less noise that the reflected laser beam showed the more effective the stand. They were doing that a good 25 years ago.
The laser idea seems weak to me and only provides indirect evidence that we are supposed to surmise things from. Maybe you can elaborate. How was the laser "noise"measured? Again, it tells you little about output variables pertaining to speaker performance and/or electronics as Geoff intonated.
"How was the laser "noise"measured? Again, it tells you little about output variables pertaining to speaker performance and/or electronics as Geoff intonated
Tom used the word refracted when I’m reasonably sure he meant reflected. You can see how much or how little the reflection of the laser beam jumps around on one of the walls. This laser reflection method is actually not far removed at all from how LIGO works, inasmuch as in LIGO a laser beam travels down a very long tunnel kilometers in length and is reflected back precisely from a mirror at the far end of the tunnel. Then the laser beam travels back to the original end of the tunnel and the influence of any gravity waves can be seen on an optical screen. Unlike LIGO, however, using lasers on speakers to measure their motion doesn’t necessarily indicate the speaker stands’ isolation effectiveness. The stand could be simply transferring energy to the floor more effectively than nothing at. AND in doing so actually making the sound worse!
I’m quite sure you didn’t mean to use the word, intonated.
Thanks for pointing me to this thread. Yeah, "revisionist" is the right word. :->)
Here’s the thing: When someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them. It’s not up to me to prove that a 2 volt drop doesn’t have an audible effect. It’s up to the claimant to prove that it does. This is Logic 101. More important, trying to assess the affect of a power wire by measuring the AC power voltage is beside the point. The *only* thing that matters is what happens at the output of the connected equipment. Competent audio gear is immune to small changes in voltage, and routinely filters out the typically small amount of noise riding on top of the power voltage.
As always, I’m glad to be proven wrong, and I promise I’ll change my opinion immediately. But in all the years I’ve been at this, nobody has ever provided such proof. Which makes sense given that electricity at audio and power line frequencies is fully understood (by electrical engineers).
I just realized the topic of this thread is vibration isolation. I love this topic! Why? Because it's so easy to prove or disprove by measuring. But who has ever done that? Well, I did not long ago. Enjoy:
From Ethan winer's article on vibration isolation:
"One fact that isolation proponents miss is sound transmits mostly through the air. Another fact is competent loudspeakers have sufficiently rigid cabinets that don't shake and vibrate very much."
Houston, we have a problem. Everyone, quick, fasten your seat belts!
Tom used the word refracted when I’m reasonably sure he meant reflected. You can see how much or how little the reflection of the laser beam jumps around on one of the walls. This laser reflection method is actually not far removed at all from how LIGO works, inasmuch as in LIGO a laser beam travels down a very long tunnel kilometers in length and is reflected back precisely from a mirror at the far end of the tunnel. Then the laser beam travels back to the original end of the tunnel and the influence of any gravity waves can be seen on an optical screen. Unlike LIGO, however, using lasers on speakers to measure their motion doesn’t necessarily indicate the speaker stands’ isolation effectiveness. The stand could be simply transferring energy to the floor more effectively than nothing at. AND in doing so actually making the sound worse!
I’m quite sure you didn’t mean to use the word, intonated.
I agree with your verbiage. As for the word intonate, yes, I did mean to use it. Don't be such a luddite. It can be used to imply conveyance of emotion or emotional content of speech (and not simply pitch). I know its been a long time since you had your intro to English composition in E school....how long ago was it? 55 years? 1961? Is that ballpark?
Here’s the thing: When someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them. It’s not up to me to prove that a 2 volt drop doesn’t have an audible effect. It’s up to the claimant to prove that it does. This is Logic 101. More important, trying to assess the affect of a power wire by measuring the AC power voltage is beside the point. The *only* thing that matters is what happens at the output of the connected equipment. Competent audio gear is immune to small changes in voltage, and routinely filters out the typically small amount of noise riding on top of the power voltage.
Welcome Ethan! Thanks for chiming in. Yes, there is a burden of proof to some degree and thus the animus for this thread.....
I just realized the topic of this thread is vibration isolation. I love this topic! Why? Because it's so easy to prove or disprove by measuring. But who has ever done that? Well, I did not long ago. Enjoy:
theaudiotweak The amount of reflected signal refracted back into the signal path is what's most important. The signal path is all solid materials including their boundaries with other solid materials. You cannot measure refraction with a laser as described.
You say refracted and reflected. And more importantly what on Earth are you even talking about? How does your post address what atmasphere wrote regarding lasers and speaker stands?
I’m not terribly surprised to see Agear welcome Ethan Winer with open arms. Neither one of these isolation denyers - not to mention the two dudes from SS - even knows what vibration isolation is. Birds of a feather flock together.
Why does it matter if a laser shows that the surface of a loudspeaker enclosure moves? How much movement is needed to make an audible difference? I'll never understand why some people are so willing to measure the wrong things and come to a wrong conclusion, when it's so easy to measure the right things and get the right conclusion!
Edit: Okay, I do understand why people who sell solutions to non-existent problems are willing to promote magical thinking. But why do consumers fall for this stuff?
... I'll never understand why some people are so willing to
measure the wrong things and come to a wrong conclusion, when it's so
easy to measure the right things and get the right conclusion!
Under these two scenarios, it's typically equally easy to be mistaken. That you don't understand that almost certainly means that you're coming to the wrong conclusions at least some of the time - and don't know it.
Speakers sit on speaker stands. They have boundaries. Energy is reflected on the external surface you see and energy is also refracted thru one material boundary into an adjacent material and its boundary. The laser will not give a read of the refraction waves that travel thru the solid material. But you can hear the influence of the refracted signal. Tom
theaudiotweak Speakers sit on speaker stands. They have boundaries. Energy is reflected on the external surface you see and energy is also refracted thru one material boundary into an adjacent material and its boundary. The laser will not give a read of the refraction waves that travel thru the solid material. But you can hear the influence of the refracted signal. Tom
I’m not terribly surprised to see Agear welcome Ethan Winer with open arms. Neither one of these isolation denyers - not to mention the two dudes from SS - even knows what vibration isolation is. Birds of a feather flock together.
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