Hi geoffkait,
I recognize those traits so well in myself. Like looking in a mirror when I don’t spend any time seeking God.
I have a sign in my listening room, "BE SURE TO TASTE YOUR WORDS BEFORE YOU SPIT THEM OUT". I make sure to stop and read it each and every morning.
Best to you Geoff, really,
Dave |
Thanks Geoff. I did indeed miss that and appreciate you backtracking for me. I will go back and reread the early posts.
I recently added Symposium Svelte shelves (constrained layer damping)and ridged steel footers with HF transducers under my SACD player, preamp & its external power supply. The improvement in image stability/specificity, soundstage width, and bass tautness is noticeable and satisfying.
Coincidentally, I mentioned to another audiophile friend of mine that we used an air table sitting atop a huge slab of granite underneath the electron microscope we used to perform ASIC post-mortums in my electronics manufacturing division and suggested that he consider an air table underneath his digital source in his ultra-high-end system. His response was that that type of vibration-control technology was extremely outdated. I begged to differ and we ended that discussion by agreeing to disagree.
My lead-and-sand-filled rigid-steel Sound Anchors component stand sits on cones atop my home’s concrete slab foundation and I can easily feel vibration sympathetic with the sound by placing my hand on the stand. As you say, rigidity, mass damping, and direct coupling are obviously not the complete answer to vibration management.
Best to you Geoff,
Dave
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"Really? That's simply amazing! Are you talking about just low frequencies here, or do the sympathetic vibrations feel like they span a wider range?"
Hi cleeds,
My "hand test" is not calibrated. lol
Yes, The deep bass frequencies do generate more perceivable vibration into the stand, but I think some of the harmonics of string instruments and drums transmit also.
High volumes are required to feel this. I have my Thiel CS5i's and dual REL Stadium III subs spiked to the concrete slab as well, so lots of low bass (and other) frequencies are being transmitted into the concrete.
I should point out that here in Texas, we have "trampoline" foundations whereby steel rebar cables are laid and put under tension within the foundation prior to pouring the concrete in order to allow the foundation to move with the soil. Perhaps the scientists involved here can posit on the effects of this "trampoline" on vibration transmission.
Best to you cleeds,
Dave
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Excerpt from Peter Bizlewicz of Symposium Acoustics interview in Positive Feedback Online:
PF: How do you sway remaining skeptics of the efficacy of resonance control, or what ever name we give it, in high performance domestic audio set ups?
PB: I don’t worry about potential members of the Flat Earth Society who may have a problem with the more advanced aspects of high end audio, and this includes vibration control. Ultimately and unfortunately, it’s their loss. The world has a generous supply of skeptics who seem compelled to mask ignorance with sophistry. The irony is that the usual modus operandi of these types is to accuse the audiophile community of sophistry, but the reverse is usually true: the casual skeptic has not done any research, and we have.
The first year I did CES, I had a small table set up with a CD player and I was doing demonstrations of the improvements in sound quality, through headphones, by placing the CD player up on Rollerblocks and a platform. When you physically demonstrate something, that is science, and we made a lot of believers with that simple setup. One very technical-looking fellow (who seemed a bit lost in the high performance audio area) was hurrying through the aisle of high end accessories, doing his very best not to make eye contact with any of the audio lunatics (such as myself) occupying the tables on either side. As he rushed past, I called to him "How about a demonstration?" Without changing his gait, he almost shouted, "I’ll believe it when I can see it on an oscilloscope!" I thought, what does looking at an oscilloscope trace have to do with listening?
I understand his perspective; such "tech heads" (I have also been called one of these) have been formally trained that nothing exists that cannot be quantified or defined (I am not speaking of mathematical theory here such as Gödelian Incompleteness Theory or Randomness, I’m referring to so called "real" phenomena). However, the greater reality is that this position assumes that everything is known. Unfortunately (or fortunately), everything is NOT known, and therefore, if something is perceived, but is not or cannot (yet) be quantified, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is not real. If more than one person perceives the same phenomena under repeatable and controlled conditions, it is either a case of mass hallucination or it is a real natural phenomenon. Ruling out the former, such phenomena may be quantified or defined tomorrow or in a hundred years, but to state that until that time it does not exist because we don’t know how to measure it yet is neither logical, scientific, nor intelligent. |
geoffkait:
"Whew! Did I miss anybody?"
Hi Geoff,
Symposium Acoustics Svelte shelves and Rollerblocks (which do, I understand, "dissipate a polarity of shear that generates interfering energy") and edenSound TerraStone roller footers. I am enjoying great success with these products as of late.
Dave
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"God helps those who help themselves".
Sorry, this is not biblical and akin to blasphemy.
No disrespect to you intended Geoff,
Dave
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Very nice and helpful response Geoff. I thank you for it.
My Dad always used to say this as I was growing up and I found myself quoting it often as a young adult, usually as an attitude of condescension toward the less fortunate and destitute I now shamefully admit.
Some very hard knocks over the next period of my life (the unexpected passing of our beautiful 28 year old daughter for one) brought me to point of humble acknowledgement that I could only be restored through the grace of God, not of my own will, thus I am sensitive to this statement for obvious reasons.
Please forgive my personal indulgence here on an audio thread. I apologize for any offense taken by anyone from my remarks.
My very best to you Geoff,
Dave
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Geoffkait: "I’m not terribly surprised to see Agear welcome Ethan Winer with open arms."
A definite turn for the worse.
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Wait and you will see agear.
Dave |
"As for "Are all those people deluded?" the answer is a resounding yes!"
Reminds me of a certain presidential candidate calling the heartland of America, "Deplorables". May you and your new business befall the same fate, Ethan. Go pet your cat and leave we, "the deluded", be. Consider it an early Christmas present to us all.
Santa
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The point is that WE DON"T CARE WHAT YOU THINK!!
Is that simple enough for you, Ethan?
Dave |
"For the record, I still use my Pioneer receiver, and it cost all of $150 at Costco".
This from a "consultant" to the audio industry. Need more be said?
Dave |
Hi Tom,
Your thoughts on the proper way to isolate cables, especially power cords and speaker cables?
Best to you Tom,
Dave |
Still no answers to direct questions. Is their some protocol against asking and answering direct real-world questions on tech-talk that I am not aware of?
Dave |
Agear:
"That in and off itself does not mean anything".
That, in and of itself, says everything.
Dave
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Seriously Tom, I would like to know what exact materials and construction techniques you recommend for isolating cables.
Best to you Tom,
Dave
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Understand, wolf, but not sure what to do about the stuff inside the speaker excepting drawing and dissipating the vibration out of the cabinet which I have done. I choose to attack what I can effect.
Dave |
Tom,
Why no answers to direct questions? I am not trying to play intellectual one-upsmanship but am only interested in finding real world solutions to real world problems.
Best to you Tom,
Dave
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"If it were up to me I’d take the whole crossover network out of the speaker and place it on an isolator."
I may very well do that. Thanks Geoff.
Have you ever seen a picture of the Thiel CS5i crossover?
Best to you Geoff,
Dave
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Fair enough Tom. Appreciate the input on the crossovers. I feel certain that a tune-up is in order after all these years and I might as well develop a solution for keeping them external.
BTW - I have the speakers placed on a Symposium Svelte platform right now. Don’t think it is a complete solution as they can rock a little on top of the carpet.
Can't go for a big lift as tweeter height is a big deal with the CS5i. Already had to build a podium underneath my listening loveseat to get my ears up to the mandatory 36" height.
Best to you Tom,
Dave |
"accuse of having an agenda." Truth can hurt.
"A common example is the capacitor placed on the reference input to an ADC. The circuit may work fine in the lab, where it isn’t being shaken vigorously. Once it is installed in an environment with vibration, significant errors in the ADC readings might appear. Power supply designers are also aware of the converse piezoelectric effect, where the ripple voltage across the capacitor causes it to “sing” or vibrate."
You owe atmasphere $100, Ethan. Pay up or shut up.
Dave
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I enjoy and admire atma-sphere's intelligent insights when dealing with the village idiot. Maybe Whiner is a good thing after all.
Dave
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bpt24: "You just don’t get it Ethan."
End of thread.
Best to you bpt24,
Dave |
Ethan Winer: "...because I've been offering such visits for many years. Even when they live only a few towns away they refuse."
A blind man could see why.
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Borrowed from bluewolf on another thread:
"Ethan: Master, I would like you to teach me Zen.
Zen Master: I cannot do that.
Ethan: Why not? I will give you gold.
Zen Master: Tea?
Ethan: Sure.
The Zen Master placed a tea cup in front of the Ethan and began pouring until the cup was full, and continued pouring with the tea pouring onto the table.
Ethan: What are you doing? Stop! Are you mad?
Zen Master: This is why I cannot teach you. Your head is full.
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"BTW Ralph, you don’t have to keep saying stuff like "You don’t seem to understand."
Ralph, simply say, "Your head is full."
Dave
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"I’ll be glad to hear how you would test yourself!"
Maybe a misrouted-post intended instead for the infectious disease center, Ethan?
Dave |
Hi atmasphere,
Dave Reich should be somewhere on that list IMO.
Best to you Ralph,
Dave |
Tea overflowing on the table, Ralph.
Best to you,
Dave |
Plagiarized from Peter Bizlewicz:
"The writer William S. Burroughs once wrote a response to his good friend, poet Alan Ginsberg, who had asked Burroughs why he hadn't dissuaded him beforehand against doing something that resulted in an unpleasant experience for Ginsberg. Burroughs, older and wiser, simply replied that he didn't say anything because "you can't tell anybody anything they don't already know." That's putting it rather in the extreme, but it's another way of saying that some people just don't get it and never will."
Food for thought Ralph.
Best to you,
Dave |
