Isolate your musical instrument in Carnegie Hall and hope to hear whats removed.. No ripples in our You Tube video in a night club in the middle of New York City and all of its non interference at least when using our non isolating designs. Tom
Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?
Mechanical grounding or isolation from vibration has been a hot topic as of late. Many know from experience that footers, stands and other vibration technologies impact things that vibrate a lot like speakers, subs or even listening rooms (my recent experience with an "Energy room"). The question is does it have merit when it comes to electronics and if so why? Are there plausible explanations for their effect on electronics or suggested measurement paradigms to document such an effect?
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Hmm, well there are Good Vibrations ( as per Beach Boys, sorry could not resist) and bad ones. We all get to pick and choose. Or not. I’ve been to Carnegie Hall. Some good vibrations there these days for sure, at least what I heard at Dress Circle level. I shoot for the same at home by any means possible. Good Vibrations.....Cheers! |
Mr. Kait, One last time, so I'll make it short and then I walk away…but really did you ever consider looking in a mirror before you insult everyone including people with credentials that far exceed anything you have ever accomplished in life? You have zero respect for anyone and you do know that music represents everything your are not? Kait picks on another poster’s opinion: In case you hadn’t noticed this thread is actually about the technical end of things, not the sound. Nothing wrong with arguing about sound but it’s subjective. That sums it all up right there… a technical writer who manufactures products for the sound industry based on theorems and specifications and does not reference or listen to amplifiers and loudspeakers. Musical quality is subjective and likewise so is every theorem surrounding vibration management in audio including “isolation and springs”. To the best of our knowledge, there is no third party independent testing recorded anywhere comparing any one theory or products to another involving vibration management in audio. Therefore the “technical end of things” is also considered “highly subjective”. Spring Dude, I would much rather work with listeners, audiophiles and music lovers solving issues and improving their sound systems instead of debating all matters subjective in audio with such a negative individual like yourself. Whereas you guys and your benefactor wish to allow vibrations to roam free - unrestrained, undamped and unisolated - I say the only good vibration is a dead vibration!
Mr. Kait, vibration particularly in a musical environment does ‘roam free’ however we prefer to “mechanically ground” resonance caused from vibration as a method of vibration management. I fail to understand your statement since “ground” is the final resting place for vibrational energy. Killer - isn’t it? The video you provided shows how someone can perform the water in the glass experiment incorrectly, although I have to confess I didn’t think that was actually possible. The lemon, ice and stirrer damp the vibrations that might otherwise appear and the glass should be filled to the brim since the ripples appear in the surface of the water. It’s not rocket science. At least you tried. Lol Kait Dude, this experiment was done in early 2015. The fluid thing was a byproduct of what the actual goal and achievement in sound reproduction featured. http://starsoundaudio.com/reviewsDetail.php?37 I saw glasses of wine filled to near capacity too but guessing our crew did not include them in the video shot so tell you what… why not send us a glass of your choice, thinking a tall, lean solid support similar to a wine glass highly susceptive to vibration would do. We will fill it to the brim with a liquid of your choice. Since we were unaware of the damping factor of ice (square cubes could have different variables than round) and toothpicks (did not take those damping factors into consideration either) and the limes as well, we will repeat this test without any of the variables - just liquid. Law Sound is on board and very much interested in hearing what a Sistrum Platform does for the mixer and effects. All we need now is a great band and venue so I’m working on it. Send us the glass and provide us the test parameters because we would not want to forget anything. Better yet, how about you personally attending? Come on Kait, step away from your keyboard and participate in a live sound experiment. Think about it, if we fail, you can actually embarrass Star Sound on AudioGon and if not, we won’t say a thing - either way, you win! Furthermore, many devices marketed as isolation devices are actually either coupling devices or resonators. Thus the statement that all isolation devices sound different can actually be viewed as an excellent example of a strawman argument. Oh my, now this is scary - we actually agree with you! The Audio Industry has incorrectly labeled vibration management with the title of ‘isolation’ as that word automatically leads readers and listeners down a single ended pathway of thinking and understanding. Isolation defined – separate from other related factors or things. This industry labels every equipment rack being sold an Isolation Rack whereas wood furniture racking is clearly not an isolation product. There are quite a few furniture companies who use cones and believe their designs isolate. The same is true with cones made of metals or any material for that matter, they are always called Isolation Cones where their functions do not isolate as you are aware. Isolation is but one of many processes in dealing with Vibration Management. Absorption, damping, resonance energy transfer, dissipation, phase cancellation or diffusion are other processes used where those formulas do not function the same as an isolation design. In our opinion the word “isolation” is well overplayed and continues to absolutely confuse the Industry. Finally. Most audiophiles continually change their systems so it's a moving train and no one should expect his sound to remain constant for very long. Thus attempts to compare isolation devices or ANY class of audio device or cable might be fruitless. Do Not agree with this statement - 380,000 Audio Points™ sold yet where are they? Rarely are any available here on AudioGon… over 5,000 Original Sistrum Platforms™ sold and likewise not too many up for grabs either. I believe comparisons are always being made and listeners hear the differences - every time - and keep what they like. (Shill shill shill :) I personally find your diatribes repetitive, uneducated, and self serving to the extreme. They simply attack your competitors and pump up your own products. Maybe it’s time to call this thread DONE and stick a fork in it.
Speaking of which, every historic event or achievement in your lifetime and every product you have ever retailed is in print and shilled somewhere on this thread too! But I have to ask; what were you doing from 2002 till now? Surely you have made advancements somewhere along the line? Did you ever improve on your original spring design? Just wondering…if Townshend really did copy your product. Mirror mirror on the wall... "OMG", I am sounding more like you everyday. Murphy called last night and told me to Vacate the Kait and get back to business. No need to prove anything. Father time will run its course and when the Patents are approved, I might return just so you can take a shot at crapping all over those too - just for kicks. In closing, Mr Kait, How can a lowly sound engineer who lived his lifetime involved in music, uneducated and self serving businessman (now that one is a real laugher if you think about it) compete with a retiree from NASA who spends what little time is left on the planet dedicated to a life of ridiculing and belittling people here on Audiogon? You win the debate!!!, simply on attrition. The only positive thing from participating here is that everyone of your victims soon realizes that there is more to music than reading the many highly repetitive insults and innuendos directed at them on your behalf and finally moves on. Ever wonder why you are a leader in postings as well as disqualifications from participation? Too bad you cannot bring yourself to actually help others instead of what you do best. What a waste of engineering prowess and time. Come on Kait, live a little, put down that keyboard, step outside your home and comfort zone. Agree to meet up with us on the road for a fluid test or corporate event. Meet the people behind our technology and learn something new if you have the cahoonas, or sit at home every night and continue on with your retirement. Either way, the invitation is always open and you will be treated as a professional and welcomed, just call. Now Exit - stage right, Seeeya! Robert |
Robert/audiopoint-- if you would be so kind as to send me a pair of Sistrum Platforms sized for a Magico Q3 I'd be delighted to perform the comparison and report back -- just an open offer. My experiences moving from the Magico Q3 spikes (into wood flooring on concrete in an urban, highly traffic and construction affected room) to the Townshend podiums are on record. I would agree that the difference moving from spikes to the spring based platform was not at all subtle, one sounded like real instruments while the other sounded like a PA system but I'm open to other approaches to the same endGood for you Folk. SS does have a demo provision. You will need some extra muscle to set them up and it takes a few days to settle but it should be educational in your splendid room/system.... |
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Folk , Robert will step up for you i am sure .. i made that offer along time ago . "Send me a set of springs and a set of audiopoints.. " Robert offered Gk declined. Gk and Robert Set the comparison up ! maybe even a pay per view lol.. i may fly in just to meet gk in person .(i would love to put a face to the mind ) just let me know what show or where.. or a secret meeting ? Just please video tape it for the masses |
Audiopoint wrote, "One last time, so I’ll make it short and then I walk away…but really did you ever consider looking in a mirror before you insult everyone including people with credentials that far exceed anything you have ever accomplished in life? You have zero respect for anyone and you do know that music represents everything your are not? Kait picks on another poster’s opinion: In case you hadn’t noticed this thread is actually about the technical end of things, not the sound. Nothing wrong with arguing about sound but it’s subjective. That sums it all up right there… a technical writer who manufactures products for the sound industry based on theorems and specifications and does not reference or listen to amplifiers and loudspeakers. Musical quality is subjective and likewise so is every theorem surrounding vibration management in audio including “isolation and springs”. One last time? You’ll make it short? Whoa! Hey! Say it isn’t so! 😥 I’m afraid Michael Green must have done a Vulcan mind meld on you as you use the same empty and puerile argument style he does. I’d recognize that jejune, sophomoric attitude and debate ability anywhere. You'll huff and you'll puff and blow my house down. Lol Have a a nice hair day Geoff Kait machina dramatica |
theaudiotweak 1,427 posts 11-15-2016 1:42pm Your Highness please explain how springs selected at 3hz or 5hz or any frequency that doesn"t hurt ours..why are they not a bandpass filter. Tom Sorry, Tom, you question doesn't even make sense. I've already explained why ISO devices are low pass filters. Are you really that dense or are you just pretending to be dense? |
theaudiotweak 1,427 posts 11-15-2016 3:58pm Isolate your musical instrument in Carnegie Hall and hope to hear whats removed.. No ripples in our You Tube video in a night club in the middle of New York City and all of its non interference at least when using our non isolating designs. Tom Give me me a couple days to figure out what the heck you’re even talking about and I’ll get back to you. My fear is that like Michael Green, you guys are laboring under the false assumption that audio systems are completely analogous to musical instruments. That straw man argument has gotten you into deep Kim chi. I’ve always said that one must not only isolate the component but also evacuate any residual vibration. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. - Shannon Dickson. |
Analogous how? Like to microscopes and LIGO and Earth and city noise are to your stuff when used in a live music venue or with real instruments that vibrate as a function of how they operate and we perceive them. That would sound like a pile of mud with your stuff.... We test our design concepts with real live instruments and musicians. Have you ever even thought of such a concept and how your designs will crush dynamics of real instruments? My designs are used in Carnegie Hall and in the Gewandhausorchestra, Leipzig, Germany (founded in 1743, named in 1781 for its first home – Gewandhaus) Some players have removed the decoupling carbon fiber endpins from their instruments and replaced them with endpins that extract the most energy from their cello and bass via the concept of direct mechanical coupling. That is only one of our test methods..how it really sounds.. What a concept. PS what about the spring bandpass filter question I asked earlier? Tom |
theaudiotweak 1,428 posts 11-16-2016 9:41am "Analogous how? Like to microscopes and LIGO and Earth and city noise are to your stuff when used in a live music venue or with real instruments that vibrate as a function of how they operate and we perceive them. That would sound like a pile of mud with your stuff...." Uh, microscopes and Ligo are examples of why isolation is important. Otherwise you couldn’t see the slide under the microscope clearly or detect gravity waves. I never said it proves anything about audio. But it IS evidence. None so blind that will not see. Whoa! Let’s not get carried away. I’m sure you have never tried to isolate anything in your life and that you are just grasping at straws. You ignore isolation. Remember? Isolation improves dynamics. But how would you know? You ignore it. Remember? then Theaudiotweak wrote, "We test our design concepts with real live instruments and musicians. Have you ever even thought of such a concept and how your designs will crush dynamics of real instruments? My designs improve dynamics. Quite dramatically actually. Thanks for asking. then Theaudiotweak wrote, "My designs are used in Carnegie Hall and in the Gewandhausorchestra, Leipzig, Germany (founded in 1743, named in 1781 for its first home – Gewandhaus) Did someone sneeze? Then theaudiotweak wrote, "Some players have removed the decoupling carbon fiber endpins from their instruments and replaced them with endpins that extract the most energy from their cello and bass via the concept of direct mechanical coupling. That is only one of our test methods..how it really sounds.. What a concept." Good for you! Don’t strain your arm patting yourself on the back. What’s that have to do with audiophiles? PS what about the spring bandpass filter question I asked earlier? You’re kidding, right? |
Vibrations affect anything that is microphonic or any surface that can vibrate and create sound (rattle being obvious but it can be moe subtle than that). Examples are a piano or guitar that will vibrate sympathetically and drum sets are very obviously sensitive to vibrations - sympathetic snare buzz being most obvious. That said, electronics of good quality are designed so that they are not microphonic. This means vibration damping is not needed. Tubes can be microphonic so they should be avoided if accuracy is desired at louder levels. Some capacitors can be microphonic and are usually avoided for that reason. Same goes for a turntable - it is unavoidable that a TT will pick up some vibration due to the very nature of the vibrating source that is amplified enormously. Speakers do not generally behave microphonically but they sure do excite vibrations in everything else. Proper cabinet damping and use of isolation stands and/or rubber an be essential to reduced unwanted sympathetic vibrations. Same goes for anything in the room - heavy curtains may help with windows a heavy rug may help with a floor - tapestries may help with vibrating detached gyprock and on and on.... Electronics are usually challenged by ground loops, stray EM and power source noise that is not filtered well enough. Most of the noise in electronics comes from stray current through leaky components, heat and in general poor circuit design - so vibration pads or cones are unlikely to have any benefit although vibration damping may ultimately protect the longevity of electronics in extreme environments. |
Stalemate Kait asks, What do instruments have to do with audiophiles? I had to put my eyes back in my head after reading that one. We are just proving to the World that our new technology provides operational efficiency for any application. We have products for Hi-Fi gear, structural environments and musical instruments. Amazing how you can never relate to music or sound. You should tout your wares on the Popular Mechanics website and get out of audio or unlock a new page in life and open your ears instead of your mouth. Now that’s a brilliant concept! Tom |
Speakers do not generally behave microphonically but they sure do excite vibrations in everything else. Proper cabinet damping and use of isolation stands and/or rubber an be essential to reduced unwanted sympathetic vibrations. Same goes for anything in the room - heavy curtains may help with windows a heavy rug may help with a floor - tapestries may help with vibrating detached gyprock and on and on....Most speakers are poorly designed in this regard as are most generic listening rooms. These stands can make a big difference on speakers for this fact alone. Electronics are usually challenged by ground loops, stray EM and power source noise that is not filtered well enough. Most of the noise in electronics comes from stray current through leaky components, heat and in general poor circuit design - so vibration pads or cones are unlikely to have any benefit although vibration damping may ultimately protect the longevity of electronics in extreme environments.I have spoken with manufactures of electronics (and owned their gear) who have gone to great lengths to mechanically ground internal components including transformers in addition to elaborate schemes of electrical isolation, etc. Proper mechanical and electrical grounding schemes have a profound impact on sonics. I agree that stray EM/RFI is a source of much sonic juju and is one reason why many philes have spent so much energy on various grounding boxes, etc. That is a whole other convo though. shadorne, since you are the Ayatollah of rock & rolla, putting SS stands or any other products mentioned here under your subs and/or speakers would surprise you.... |
theaudiotweak 1,430 posts 11-16-2016 12:33pm Stalemate Kait asks, What do instruments have to do with audiophiles? I had to put my eyes back in my head after reading that one. We are just proving to the World that our new technology provides operational efficiency for any application. We have products for Hi-Fi gear, structural environments and musical instruments. Amazing how you can never relate to music or sound. You should tout your wares on the Popular Mechanics website and get out of audio or unlock a new page in life and open your ears instead of your mouth. Now that’s a brilliant concept! Tom Could your posts get any more silly and sophomoric? Just because you say you have products for musical instruments and for audio doesn’t mean that musical instruments behave like audio components. Another example of the MG Mind Meld in action. I realize you guys probably thInk you have a great marketing scheme that audiophiles will lap right up. Heck, it's not even your marketing scheme, it's Michael's. Because I’m in a good mood I’ll even explain why your great theory is bogus. It’s because musical instruments don’t have electron tubes, wires, microchips, circuit boards, you know, things that distort the audio signal, the electromagnetic wave, when they vibrate. Unlike most musical instruments audio components should not resonate. If you like I can recommend a good shrink or deprogrammer to try to undo all the damage done. We see this type of thing a lot in cults. The Branch Davidians spring to mind. Can’t relate to music or sound? Are you crazy? All of my products are designed to improve the sound. I must relate just a little bit to music and sound. Besides, many of my products improve the sound of musical instruments, real musical instruments. Bet you’re not laughing now. |
I never seen MG or have I ever spoken with him in my 20 year association with Star Sound as a customer as a dealer or as a consultant. You have though. All the devices you listed above, including musical instruments develop interfering energy. We as a group know how to rid that interference from those devices. Amplified musical instruments have all that you stated on your blow back..Acoustic instruments have pickups attached or microphones attached or placed nearby. Our devices work in and around and under those and work to reduce the interfering energy ..from the instrument from the mic stand and beyond. Your stuff does nothing from the start. Your stuff compounds the interference with waveform cancellation and loss of information and dynamics. You have been wrong for over 41 years..Tom |
Agear wrote, "Please explain how springs double dynamic range" Oh, a slow pitch, eh? Springs double the dynamic range the same way they double the S/N ratio. By decreasing mechanical noise sufficiently. Noise, you know, the denominator of the term S/N. So it would be fair to say springs can double the dynamics and the resolution. Follow? Dare I go one step further and say by reducing mechanical vibration for the CD player the (analog) optical reading process is improved significantly, thereby greatly improving the digital signal downstream? |
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Oh, a slow pitch, eh? Springs double the dynamic range the same way they double the S/N ratio. By decreasing mechanical noise sufficiently. Noise, you know, the denominator of the term S/N. So it would be fair to say springs can double the dynamics and the resolution. Follow?Nonsense. What E-school did you theoretically attend again? |
Can't validate the doubling part (no measuring equipment), but the improvement in the sound quality of my system with the Solid-Tech Discs of Silence (spring footers) under my SACD player and also springs underneath my amplifier yielded significant improvements in lowering the noise floor, reducing distortion, and at least the perception that dynamic range and S/N ration greatly improved.dlcockrum, I am not sure anyone has validated that. Mr. Kait certainly has not. I have used a litany of "isolation" devices and they all have an effect in one way or another. It would theoretically be possible to measure (with the appropriate software) changes in jitter performance of power conditions, cables, and yes even mattress springs, cones, etc. It would be fun to find out: http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html#93gQlSDoQbQHAYeT.97 |
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agear OP 1,234 posts 11-17-2016 6:37pm Oh, a slow pitch, eh? Springs double the dynamic range the same way they double the S/N ratio. By decreasing mechanical noise sufficiently. Noise, you know, the denominator of the term S/N. So it would be fair to say springs can double the dynamics and the resolution. Follow? Dare I go one step further and say by reducing mechanical vibration for the CD player the (analog) optical reading process is improved significantly, thereby greatly improving the digital signal downstream? Nonsense. What E-school did you theoretically attend again? Since your so called education - what was it again, flowers or something? - seems to have omitted any electronics or physics I suggest you should probably keep your yap shut, you know, since when you open it, it removes all doubt as to whether or not you’re a fool. There can be no doubt about your motives, however. tootles |
Since your so called education - what was it again, flowers or something? - seems to have omitted any electronics or physics I suggest you should probably keep your yap shut, you know, since when you open it, it removes all doubt as to whether or not you’re a fool. There can be no doubt about your motives, however. Yuk, yuk. How does mechanical noise theoretically ameliorated by your spring magically become part of the "N" in a S/N reading and how did you measure it....or is it more this another intuitively-based, Sheldrakian orgasm you had in the rain forrest? Which community college in NOVA was it again??? |
I have used cones and spikes of many types (not those from Star Sound), sorbothane feet, vintage Audio Technica footers, wood blocks, brass footers and probably a few others, and never could I say that any of these gave my system better sound across the board like the springs do. I obviously have not tried everything (not even close), but the cost/benefit ratio of these springs is ridiculous. Just my experience. No horse in this race and no disrespect intended to anyone.Dave, I believe you. What sorts of amps? I have noticed the best effects under tube amps. Starsound stands have a much more profound impact than their cones. That being said, the more things vibrate, the more pronounced the results of any of these technologies (room>subs>speakers>TT>CDP>tubed gear>SS and digital gear). One of my motivations for this thread was a theoretical basis for the effect on electronics and why. There is little to no data to be found. Just lots of woo woo and strong pseudo-scientific opinions. That does not mean the answer cannot be found or that their application is not valid..... |
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Agear wrote, "One of my motivations for this thread was a theoretical basis for the effect on electronics and why. There is little to no data to be found. Just lots of woo woo and strong pseudo-scientific opinions. That does not mean the answer cannot be found or that their application is not valid....." Uh, at least two examples of measurements for vibration isolation devices were already provided. Not to mention the landmark physical and theoretical treatise on vibration isolation - as it relates to audio - published in Stereophile magazine more than 20 years ago. Hel-loo! By the way, I really like the way you sneaked the word "theoretical" in there, as if you knew anything about the theoretical physics, or any physics for that matter, involved. Do you label Everything you don’t understand you label woo or pseudo-science? |
Uh, at least two examples of measurements for vibration isolation devices were already provided. Not to mention the landmark physical and theoretical treatise on vibration isolation - as it relates to audio - published in Stereophile magazine more than 20 years ago. Hel-loo! By the way, I really like the way you sneaked the word "theoretical" in there, as if you knew anything about the theoretical physics, or any physics for that matter, involved. Do you label Everything you don’t understand you label woo or pseudo-science? The sky is the limit at Imagination U. What you posted earlier from some crusty folks at Stereophile can hardly be labelled a treatise. Again, show me the the measurements whey a spring doubles dynamic range. Stop babbling and cough up some actual data. |
agear OP "The sky is the limit at Imagination U. What you posted earlier from some crusty folks at Stereophile can hardly be labelled a treatise." Suit yourself. Crusty folks? He was younger than you. More importantly, he grasped the whole concept of isolation. Bet you a cuppa coffee you didn’t even read it. Or couldn’t. Agear thinks hard, pulls the trigger, "Again, show me the the measurements whey a spring doubles dynamic range. Stop babbling and cough up some actual data." That’s getting to be your calling card, the demand for data. Funny when it comes from someone who obviously doesn’t .understand data. Maybe you and Moopman can commiserate over a couple of beers. An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - old audiophile axiom |
That's getting to be your calling card, the demand for data. Funny when it comes from someone who obviously doesn't understand data. Or even the concept. Maybe you and Moopman can commiserate over a couple of beers.Its so funny how you actually believe your pseudoscience ramblings have any importance. Never saw anyone waste so many words over nothing. |
Geoffkait: who was actually addressing agear, "That’s getting to be your calling card, the demand for data. Funny when it comes from someone who obviously doesn’t understand data. Or even the concept. Maybe you and Moopman can commiserate over a couple of beers." Mapman thinks for a second, hesitates, then pulls the trigger, "Its so funny how you actually believe your pseudoscience ramblings have any importance. Never saw anyone waste so many words over nothing." Thus spake Rockman. Who will reach the magic number 14,000 posts very soon. More humor from what one assumes is he engineer's side of Mapman's brain. Foshizzel ma Nizzle. |
