Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?

Years ago I was fortunate enough to grow up surrounded by musical instruments of all kinds and had a few friends who also spent their lifetimes involved in music. Among those, Jay Thomas, a sound engineer by trade and incredible cabinet maker along with Dick Boak of the famed Martin Guitar Company. During those early years Dick was in charge of purchasing the exotic woods and adobe for the Martin Company. He exposed the looks of those woods to Jay who as a cabinetmaker would purchase some and build racks to elegantly hold all of our stereo gear. Initially we had no clue what was going on but soon realized that the denser the wood used in the equipment racks, the better our hi-fi gear sounded.

Fast forward to today. I am no longer a fan of wood racking when absolute sonic performance is the goal. A block of wood or shelving vibrates and produces frequencies well within the audible range of human hearing. We commonly refer to this noise as ‘rack chatter’. The company I represent prefers to use metals for the building of equipment racks where the frequency range of the shelves, support rods and metal cones vibrating is well above or far below that of the human ear’s capability of detection. We prefer to entirely remove the audibility of vibrating wood racks from the overall environmental formula.

Example: listeners always state that MDF sounds OK but a hardened maple sounds much better. When comparing the two, MDF is made of sawdust, air and glue (polymers-plastics) and produces a very wide and very audible frequency range when subjected to vibration. Maple is denser containing less air molecules, no glues and has the advantage of a grain structure where laminar resonance will flow along the grains pathway and locate an exit via metal rods (shelf supports) or cones hence establishing an energy transfer methodology similar to the technology we are developing for use in audio and video equipment racking.

As Maple produces less audible frequency byproduct compared to MDF, the question remains… Does the solid wood actually sound better or are we just hearing much less of the audible frequencies caused from the density of the Maple wood vibrating?

Second Example: We have worked with clients where the aesthetics of steel is not an option; to them wood is preferable. I generally suggest they sample mahogany. Mahogany is much more difficult to work with due to its high density as compared to maple but the end result in every case to date: the listeners preferred the mahogany.

Questions to ponder:

Do the audible effects from a more dense wood reduce the sonic signature that vibrating wood adds in a sound room?

Do denser woods actually sound more musical or are we hearing less colorations or noise? Keep in mind we are listening to a block of wood vibrate in a listening room environment and not that of a spruce inlay on a tuned up Martin guitar.

As evidenced here on AudioGon feedback, clients repeatedly state Sistrum Platforms dramatically lower floor noise. As well, the soundstage immediately grows north, south, east and west. Despite other technical functions present within the Sistrum design, metals used in racking reduce the resonant frequency of wood via mechanical grounding and remove the effects leading to audible rack chatter hence providing the speaker system with more open space to play into.

There are many who say they prefer the sound of wood in their systems and there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that assessment or enjoyment, however until one attempts to remove or reduce rack chatter one may never know the full sound capability of their electronics and loudspeakers. We are extremely confident one will definitely and easily hear the differences.

Robert

Star Sound

To Bdp24,

Not to sway this thread off topic but as an experienced percussionist you might find this interesting:

My background was a touring sound engineer through the seventies and eighties spending a lot of time working with percussion instruments, the piano being my favorite. I learned from musicians who graciously took the time to educate me on multiple playing techniques, pitch and tuning procedures. Upon retiring I could also differentiate the sonic characteristics between the many name brands of instruments as well.

The company I now work for continues to engineer products that improve the operational efficiency of a variety of musical instruments that come in contact with the floor, providing newer, more efficient mechanical grounding (direct coupling) methodologies ala Star Sound style.

In our opinion, current drum and cymbal stands relate to resonance function described as a “catch and hold” methodology. They hold the energy within the metals then releases it back into the air as heat via frequency cancellation. The rubber feet also assist with primary absorption in reducing the resonance formed from vibration. This process has worked well over the ages but we are discovering performance can be improved.

Our technology is titled Live-Vibe Technology™ which utilizes an optimized geometry, coupled with material science and mechanical grounding techniques. In every case involving prototypes or where the technology has been adapted to existing products specific to musical instruments, the sound definitely improves moreover, without altering the sonic character of the instrument.

Example: When you adapt Audio Points™ to a Musser®  vibraphone with or without a variable speed motor; the instrument immediately responds noticeably with greater dynamics, improved attack and, more importantly, lengthier decay times. The vibes also increases in volume and stage presence - all with a sense of effortlessness. Each of these musical attributes coincide with our highly successful Tone Acoustics Endpins™ for cello, upright bass and bass clarinet. We custom manufactured a set of Audio Points and mounted them to a concert grand piano; that experience, both stunned and lifted us to a new musical level of thinking.

We are convinced that possibilities exist to improve overall performance on a drum kit by designing and improving the stand builds. We base this assumption on the proven success of the Original Sistrum Platform™ leg assemblies. These assemblies feature three materials which were used in combination to move energy to ground at high speed. This technology literally brought the equipment rack design to life. In addition, we had success in modifying and/or building microphone stands that produced a much clearer, smoother warmth with a greater, airier highly-audible response with a variety of newer and classic microphones.

I met a percussionist in Allentown, PA who owns a machine shop and manufactured snare hardware using copper and brass as principal materials modifying a Slingerland deep snare shell. The drum sounded like a live gunshot with absolute over-the-top volume. Unfortunately the snare overpowered the rest of the kit and actually limited the override microphones capabilities to enhance the cymbals and kit; however, we learned from that experiment where materials that are highly conductive for resonance definitely have a profound effect on the overall performance specifically in the speed of attack, stage presence and dispersion and provided a much deeper (lower frequencies) sound quality.

Why not focus on the drum shell too? By establishing a greater operational efficiency to the instrument’s materials construction, forming a high-speed conductive pathways for resonance transfer we might soon be tuning drum heads on just three pins instead of multiples.

From a vibration management perspective, I am constantly amazed how the world of hi-fi components, loudspeakers and studio environments continue to integrate seamlessly with our understanding of musical instruments.

Robert

Star Sound

I thought you had a seismologist on board. Where’s the seismologist when you need her? I know, she’s too busy. Lol

Mr. Kait, yes it is true. We are way too busy in keeping up with your rants, grade two humor, personal insults towards people far superior to your level of intelligence, especially those you have never met. We now realize, this behaviour is your personal style signature here on AudioGon. An unidentifiable mockery typed lifestyle, which in our opinion answering you is even more time wasted.

(repeat): Funny thing how you continuously attack everything and everyone across the vast audio nation, yet when asked to respond in kind you buckle under the pressure by never answering any questions “whatsoever” directed at you. From my standpoint - totally inexcusable.

In our meager defense, it is extremely difficult navigating our responses due to patents and processes pending at this time. When Tom D. returns from vacation, he will be more than happy to rejoin this thread as I am not the person heading up this end of the research and development process.

In closing Mr. Kait:

We ask your patience…; wait for the products… wait for the patent approvals… be patient old timer - after all the entire LIGO project was not built in seven days either.

Robert

Star Sound

Geoff's words: Everybody’s got something to hide except me and my monkey.

Naw, I just can’t bring myself to say it… but am assuming this is where you learned about handling vibration?

Robert

Mr. Kait says - Actually brass is easy to fabricate and relatively cheap. That's the reason brass is used in many musical instruments. Silver saxophones sound better.

Brass is manmade. Not all brass is “relatively cheap” and definitely all brass does NOT sound or perform the same in ‘any’ application related to sound and audio. Our many years of experience manufacturing brass parts for the audio and musical instrument industries backs this statement.

The chemistry and materials used to make brass is critical to the end sonic. All brass used in Star Sound production is made in the USA and arrives with chemical certifications in order to assure performance. We could import less expensive brass and manufacturer a cone for five dollars however the performance and sonic result would give Star Sound and the Audio Point™ a very poor reputation.

Chemistry and grades of brass is just one of the many reasons a Selmer, Yanagisawa, Cecilio, etc horns vary in sonic.

I’ve heard and worked with musicians playing ‘both’ very expensive silver and brass horns but could not make a comparison as to which material sounds better simply because it would take the “same musician” playing “both” in order to arrive at that decision. Then of course you have to differentiate between brand names, years the models were built, reeds, etc in order to provide any opinion of merit.

The Selmer MK VI sax has been a long time favorite of mine in studios and on stage but in my opinion, we should ask a few professional horn players which is the preferred material for sonic instead of accepting the opinion of one who holds a degree in aerospace.

Robert

Star Sound

Hello bdp24 - In answer to your questions:

Some of the drum company's have introduced accessories designed to allow their drum shells to resonate as long as possible (sustain is very "in" right now in drums), by suspending their mass in free air.

As a sound engineer, my personal preference is always a tight sounding kit where one can depict triplets on a snare head and definitive octaves between deck and floor toms. I am not sure if I understand you’re meaning of sustain as those sonic characteristics are more easily achieved when the kits are recorded or amplified and reinforced with public address systems. Could you please expand on your description for me? I will also visit a couple percussion shops this week to improve my understanding as I am probably behind with current trends and languages.  

We should be careful here as resonate and resonance are two very different topics when involving and discussing vibration management terminology.

Our company understands ‘resonate’ as a sound having an extended effect as in - attack, sustain and decay. An instrument’s "resonant signature" is the overall sound of the instrument whether it be a drum, cello, electric component or speaker system which the overall sound quality of the equipment is based on the combination of all three of these characteristics.

Resonance on the other hand, are amplitudes of detrimental energy formed from vibration.  If resonance is allowed to build and propagate on a product or instrument hanging freely in the air, without a mechanical pathway to instantaneously evacuate the resonance, these unwanted vibrations will have a serious, adverse impact on the performance of most, if not all, equipment.  

Amplitudes of energy will establish inefficiencies within the intended operational function of the musical instrument, amplifier,speaker system, etc. Resonance build up, has a negative effect altering the character or resonant signature of the instrument, component or speaker system. The reduction or removal of these unwanted vibrations can significantly improve the resolution of every system.

Our concept for mechanically grounding instruments which contact the stage is to effectively reduce unwanted resonance, as it forms, via energy transfer to ground. This is done by implementing resonance conductive pathways designed to move energy at high speed away from the vibrating instrument while, at the same time, “not” to alter the character (sonic signature) of the instrument. The results are that you will hear more of what the instrument is capable of by establishing a higher level of operational efficiency.

These results are very opposite of what you may think as our technology and approach is opposite the “old school principles” on the surface. However by understanding vibration, our applications and products will increase volume providing greater dynamics (attack), time (sustain) and deliver more of the instrument’s natural sound capabilities (decays). All of the characteristics you as a musician are seeking from your instrument (or stereo system) without affecting the instrument’s natural tone.

Pearl offers rubber feet for floor toms legs which contain an air pocket designed to prevent the shell from being "grounded" to the floor, robbing it of it's full vibrational resonance.

Rubbers and Sorbothane® materials are inexpensive primary energy absorbent materials. They have been used to treat the negative effects caused from vibration (Coulomb Friction) for generations. These materials eat (absorb) energy indiscriminately however, within all that energy are your dynamic and harmonic structures that we, as listeners and musicians, long to hear. In our opinion, by utilizing those air pockets Pearl is attempting to decrease the rate of absorption in an attempt to retain some of the dynamics and harmonics in the sound.  

For hi-fi product support, isn't a lack of resonance the goal? And whatever resonance (vibration) is inevitable to be prevented from entering hi-fi components? Absolute isolation may be an unreachable goal, but it's a correct one imo.  

This is where we differ. You cannot prevent resonance from entering a component. You cannot prevent resonance from forming on circuits, resistors, caps, etc within the component - it is already there when you turn the electricity on or volume up.

You cannot prevent vibration in music - music is vibration.

Energy trapped within any component or loudspeaker without a mechanical exit builds and propagates establishing product operational ‘inefficiencies’ hence limiting the product’s function.

Airborne energy seeks ground and will get there following the path of least resistance. Therefore it is first attracted to the greater mass such as wall, floors and ceilings. It is also attracted to metals as they provide secondary grounding planes and are conductive for resonance flow. Turn up the volume in a system with a good kick drum and touch your equipment. The beat of the drum is readily detected by your touch on the chassis of the components. Turn up the volume again and the pulse which you feel will also increase.

How does one treat resonance?

Historical data teaches us vibration is bad and to kill vibration via isolation, diffusion and absorption processes and materials (heavy damping). Along with killing the vibration you also kill the dynamics and harmonic structures and more importantly you kill the elusive and fragile “live dynamic” (the ultimate goal). Physics - kill something and it is dead, not to return to life; yet isn’t our primary goal to seek the live performance?

The newest option is to manage vibration by first and foremost allowing the instrument, component or speaker to vibrate enabling us to capture and hear that live dynamic. Then as resonance builds, transfer those amplitudes to ground via Live-Vibe Technology™. This approach retains the dynamic and harmonic structures we so desperately desire to hear.

Both methodologies will work, Anti-vibration or Pro-vibration but one will definitely perform at a higher rate of ‘operational efficiency’ ultimately providing very different and highly audible results. We are a Pro-vibration company. 

Robert

Star Sound

In our humble opinion, the Townshend technical comparison and videos are “Creative Marketing” tools supported by audio theory and are lacking any proof from third party independent testing:

1. Comparing $0.90 cents worth of some kind of "typical" generic spike to an approximate $3,000.00 isolation product clearly puts the test and results in the favor of the host company. This would be like Star Sound comparing a Rhythm Platform™ next to generic springs which would not be a reasonable comparison or fair to the listenership either. This test or proof of effectiveness is reduced to marketing before the first physical tap on the speakers takes place.  

2. There is a level of noise displayed on “both” monitors before the experimentation of jumping and taping begins. Those noise levels are never analyzed to see what the differences are at the outset (between the cheap spikes and the ultra expensive product) in order to establish a ‘Control’ factor for the comparison.

3. Does anyone ask why they have to physically have to rap the cabinet or jump up and down to excite motion in the environment in order to get their 'desired' result? Do people do this when listening? Why not pulse the speaker system with frequency and high volume? So many more questions...

4. Then there is the technical data, charts and mechanical motion models. We will refrain from exploring those inefficiencies because this is not an equitable comparison. This ‘proof of effectiveness’ appears to be anchored on comparing two methodologies where one is heavily favored to the isolation spring side of marketing and gives the newest technical advancement and competition that our company is involved in - a bad rap.

NOTE: No two spikes or coupling devices are nearly the same in mechanical function and sonic performance AND one should note that before deciding coupling or decoupling is the way to go. Mass and Geometry play an extremely important role in mechanical grounding via high speed resonance transfer designs and products. The generic spikes used in this comparison are maybe a quarter pound of total mass? What is the total weight of the isolation device?

We have absolutely nothing against this company. Creating sales is first and foremost in order to advance products and fund technologies but if you really want to show the differences between coupling (mechanical grounding) and decoupling (isolation) then why not be a bit more fair and place a $1,700.00 Rhythm Platform or any other existing product from the same cost bracket as the Townshend and compare from there?

In my personal opinion, Townshend has a great storyboard depicting isolation as this methodology has been accepted for years. Staying away from comparisons might be the better way to go and avoid the rebuttals from the competition entirely.

Did anyone ever compare the two really strong products mentioned above side by side? Let me elaborate on what one may experience. Clearly the Townshend and Sistrum Platform are two totally different approaches to vibration management. The technologies are opposite one another and SO are the Sonic Results (highly subjective to end users of course). The products do ‘not’ sound similar as if someone is comparing subtle differences between two good amplifiers. In this case, the differences are extremely audible and will easily provide you a favorite choice.

Thank you for your time,

Robert

Star Sound.

Mr. Kait states: - The only way you can possibly deal wih seismic waves is to decouple the component from them, and I'm referring to rotational (bending) forces in additional to the usual vertical forces and forces in the horizontal plane.  

Your springs are actually functioning as a “direct coupling mechanism”. Depending on the actual materials and dimensions of springs used, the speed of the resonance transfer will vary as will the bandwidth of frequencies across the audible and inaudible spectrum, yielding different sonic results in comparison. Frequency and Speed with springs is complexly related to the mass and mass distribution of the component. We too have used springs in our studies and development processes and have found that there are too many variables in each possible usage scenario; there is no “one-size fits all” with spring coupling. Ultimately, you are ‘NOT Decoupling’ with the use of metallic springs - try another material.

You have yet to respond, answer or clarify or prove to us; how inaudible seismic waves affect the performance of a stereo system in either a standard or more efficient listening environment, nor have you provided any indication as to how such waves have such a dramatic effect on the "audible performance" and/or musical quality of playback equipment when mechanically grounded.

Do inaudible seismic waves affect the performance of musical instruments in some “audible” way that the world is not aware of?

Mr. Kait stated: Sorry, but once I see, "I have 30 years in audio or I have been doing this for 40 years, therefore..." I don’t read whatever comes next. Force of habit. Lol

Then why not leave the “majority” of audio veterans alone and exploit your visions elsewhere? Like Coulomb Friction, you clog up all signal pathways and “therefore”, in my opinion you should mechanically transfer out!

Robert

Star Sound

Mr. Kait,

Metal electronic component chassis are conductive for resonance. Metal springs are also conductive of resonance. The metal spring touches the metal chassis and conducts resonance towards the greater mass (racking system or structural flooring) via physics, laws of gravity and motion; hence a mechanical coupling and energy transfer becomes part of the formula.

Ligo this and Ligo that…seismic vibration this and seismic waves that…. Never do you present words like musical performance, musical quality, ‘audible’, decay, sustain, rhythm, dynamics, harmonics, response time… you know - words that are truly meaningful and understandable to everyone here - words that listeners relate to.

Mr. Kait states: - It's the same concept that audiophiles use to prevent seismic type vibration from interfering with laser assmblies, tonearms, stereo cartridges, printed circuit boards, etc. by incorporating mass on spring isolation.

AGAIN:

You have yet to respond, answer or clarify or prove to us; how inaudible seismic waves affect the performance of a stereo system in either a standard or more efficient listening environment, nor have you provided any indication as to how such waves have such a dramatic effect on the ‘audible performance’ and/or musical quality of playback equipment when mechanically grounded.

Do inaudible seismic waves affect the performance of musical instruments in some “audible” way that the world is not aware of?

Do these ‘inaudible’ seismic waves that are present every minute of every day in our lives result in any detrimental “audible” effects?

The KEY word here is ‘AUDIBLE’ which is the most important word to anyone involved in music and/or sound reproduction.

As always, Good Listening!

Robert - Star Sound  

Tom, you are continuing to relate to loudspeaker function and sound which is no longer the topic of discovery here. Stick to Ligo for that project governs everything known and unknown for all mankind.

Still waiting for Mr. Kait to tell us what Ligo has to do with audible sound here on earth and/or how it relates to audio equipment and sound room performance. As a retired sound engineer I can only state that thank goodness Ligo has not ruined music as much as it continues to ruin this thread. Speaking of which...

okAIT - It’s my turn now.

Mr. Kait attempts to belittle another listener stating:

“Sorry, but once I see, "I have 30 years in audio or I have been doing this for 40 years, therefore..." I don’t read whatever comes next. Force of habit. Lol”

Then...

Mr. Kait comes back with  - “Besides Townshend and I between us have more than 40 years of experience in vibration isolation.”

Huh???   40 years here and another 40 there… Read ON!

Question: “40 years between us”; is that similar to “collectively”? Mr. Kait, you might check with Mr. Townshend and get legal permission before you consider him your adopted brother.

Then Mr. Kait rants on - “Only a fool would enter the fray at this point but I guess you guys are desperate so let er rip! Lol”

Sorry to report Mr. Kait, we are not desperate to spend time wasted with you. Unlike yourself who constantly attempts to belittle the members here, we absolutely honor clients with 30 to 40 years in audio and truly appreciate it when they share their listening experiences with us. That type of participation is how we continue to learn and innovate. 

While on the topic of experience: It appears that I have been mixing music on a professional level while you were listening to FM radios in college and years before your state-of-the-art reference Walkman was first manufactured and fifteen years or so before you sold your first bag of audio rocks. If we were to add up the collective years of experience between the engineers and people involved in our company, we would very easily topple the century mark. The names and backgrounds of our company membership are located on our website for your personal review in case you’re having any disbelief or wish to challenge collective brain power.

That said; I fail to see what those combined “40 years of experience” gets you or how it is meant to connect with the readership. Are you attempting to earn some type of bragging rights or are you simply waving the ‘beware of dog’ sign in our face?  In your words - “Lol”

Kait states further - “Firstly, let me say I eat seismologists for breakfast. All this idle talk about seismologists is making me hungry.”

OK - Mr. G Kait - I am now compelled to ask…  After devouring the seismologists, eight hours later or based on a regular morning routine, is this digestive process how the Brilliant Pebbles are actually manufactured?

GK comes on with more advice for listeners: “You’re not the boss of me. Go admire your rock collection and above all get a life!”

Wait just one minute… It appears you Mr. Kait are the only one peddling a rock collection around here!

(Sorry again for my wasting everyone’s time in an unprofessional manner as this thread turns more toxic. Too many years of touring rock and roll always give me the urge for the occasional rebuttal)  

With regards to the forthcoming statement on what we have learned about seismology and how it relates to audio reproduction and isolation springs, please be patient Mr. “Great Kait” as there is a lot of information being processed for publication. We are a small business actively advancing a technology so unfortunately there is not a lot of time left to humor you or your associate on a daily basis.

Out # 3 (GK’s monkey made that call) - Start the next inning.

Robert

Star Sound

Kait says - “That’s because the entire house is shaking due to the microseismic activity, traffic, etc. This is precisely why audiophiles found out a long time ago that all efforts to build a rigid, solid foundation for their gear are for naught compared to isolating the gear.”

We cannot hear or feel our houses shaking therefore have no idea as to the validity of microseismic activity wreaking havoc on our sound systems. Star Sound Platforms are rigid and so are the majority of racking designs sold in this Industry. The minority involves spring isolation. You were one of a couple manufacturing racks built on spring concepts so if your rack was that good, where is it now?

I have never encountered springs in a recording facility, never encountered springs in musical instruments, never noticed them in sound rooms or studios and never saw them on lathe foundations when cutting masters for vinyl. The only time I experienced springs in audio and/or racking was from two or three companies (copycats included) involved in developing high end audio vibration management systems and I am not stating anything here related to performance so do not go off the deep end again. We are just wondering where all the Industry support has gone.

Kait states - “I can't wait to see what you little monkeys will say next.”

Help me Geoff Kait, my house is shaking from “inaudible seismic activity” and disrupting the sound and quality of my hi-fi system and robbing me of musical quality...

NAH, JUST JOKING - Although my house does shake from sound pressure level with a percussion and rhythm section that sounds like a concert environment and I am experiencing the joy of listening to music. No Walkabout and headphones here - a real sound room, a live sounding system and larger than life stage with lots of attack, sustain and decay combined with lots of space and airiness in between.

There is something about a live concert, recording studio or listening to music in my home that makes me feel good. I need to feel the quiet of the room so one can hear the finger noise on the strings and neck during a cello solo. I require lots of air, depth of feel, attack, sustain and decays - you know that live experience of air moving along with the all important ‘physical body feel’ of emotion and participation. I would rather feel a kick drum in my chest compared to just hearing one in my ears but that is how I enjoy music and that is how we engineer our products to perform at Star Sound. To me, feeling the emotion is as important as hearing every note - they are one in the same.

Kait asks - “I realize I’ve probably asked you this question before but now that you’ve taken case of the vibrations produced by motors, transformers, etc. In the component and vibrations that might wind up there due to acoustic forces how did you address the seismic vibrations? It appears you’re ignoring them. Am I missing something?”

We have always ignored them.

The Great Kait cannot come up with any evidence whatsoever that inaudible seismic activity affects sound reproduction “in real time”. It takes equipment costing millions of dollars to “SHOW” seismic frequencies that are well below that of human hearing.

Ligo is an amazing system but does not relate to audio reproduction as the Audio and Recording Sciences relate to human hearing - we will provide a more detailed explanation forthcoming.

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/vibration-isolation?highlight=passive%20dampingf

I am a sound engineer - if I cannot hear it, we cannot improve or relate to it, so we put our money and research into improving what we can hear and what we do know.

Kate says - “To summarize my answer, the isolation is provided by the ability to move. If the component is resting on a stable solid base (no isolation) it will still move along with the floor and the shaking all over motion the house is forced into by seismic forces, including Earth crust motion (microseisms).”

When a speaker is placed on springs, everything moves about and in situations depending on volume and room pressure level, speakers can also move counter to Earth’s rotation. Everything moves - the chassis, drivers, diaphragms and voice coils move freely - left to right and front to back.

• Since everything is moving around how does one relate to or measure for driver time alignment?
  

• If a speaker fires from different angles and/or locations while moving, does that affect driver dispersion patterns?
  

• How do the internal moving parts of a loudspeaker function when subjected to constant flexing?
  

• Speaker testing is usually done from a fixed foundation and position - not a moving plane, so how would spring movement affect the testing in anechoic or other studio environments?
  

Analogy:  Speakers fire frequencies through air much the same as weapons fire projectiles through air. I would rather fire a weapon from a solid fixed foundation compared to firing it from a moving spring foundation - greater accuracy - the same with speakers (IMO).

In closing Mr. Kait:

We have listened to your springs in action and on many surfaces including stones, woods, steel acrylics, etc. There are too many variables involved to establish a geometry that works for a broad coverage of products unless we took individual chassis and developed an optimized spring sizing for each and every product size and weight for filtering and performance.

Star Sound Platforms are not restricted by weight capacities and are NOT designated “Product Specific”. The smallest Platform will support over one ton of mass.The only difference between the various offerings is shelf sizing, weight in materials, geometries and price. The higher the price the more material is used which results in higher ‘audible’ performance and component operational efficiency. In every product category a single technology is applied.

The same single shelf model number of any Star Sound Platforms increases performance when placed underneath “any” loudspeaker system, electronic components, turntables, power distribution products, guitar or keyboard amplifiers, recording or concert reinforcement mixers, signal compressors, gates and expanders, digital reverbs, microphone stands, AC power transformers, DC power supplies, FM radio output transformers, microwaves, air conditioning compressors, and the list continues to grow.

We never considered Earth’s crust motion or seismic forces to be part of our technology, research or approach to product development as we are focused on improving the 'audible' musical instrument and recording/playback sciences. It would appear in order to provide you any concept of understanding related to our technical approach or why our products perform direct coupled to Earth without the negative effects from inaudible seismic interference would have to result in a product audition. Up for a listen?

Keep to your seismic storyboarding as it delivers a simplistic concept, provides a level of believability and will attract an audience so you can retail your lengthy list of all the different little things you sell. I have no doubt you will continue to stay on the seismic issues telling companies like ours that we are missing the boat and should go back to school only because Ligo and Kait says so.

We do not listen to Ligo. We do not hear electron microscopes. We do not listen in anechoic environments and we certainly do not hear our houses shaking from seismic whatevers, so what exactly are we missing?

You call us little monkeys. Obviously you did not search out the people behind our company or could possibly understand in human terms how to relate with professionals. In our opinion you are an amateurish innovator, tasteless oppressor and a peckerwood (named after one of your products of course). How many bags of rocks have you sold this week?

Robert - Star Sound

Unfortunately we are having difficulty with timely responses due to terminology involving patent pending processes. Sorry Mr. Kait, but it’s going to take more time.

Technically weak, it is not. Patentable - probably yes.

I have read where all the technology surrounding all of your products is kept secret and proprietary so if you ever applied for patents, you would surely understand the situation we are involved with and if not, too bad.

In the meantime, we are preparing a few items you can chew on in the upcoming days.

Robert

So much name calling going on - I guess my memory is not serving me well. A mistake on my behalf therefore I do apologize.

I did write you in when casting my vote today but forgot to include the darn monkey.  

Robert

Hello dlcockrum, regards to your post dated 11-04-2016 8:50pm, requesting opinions on Solid Tech Testing pdf file:

First and foremost, we have some concerns about this so called “independent” testing.

Solid-Tech states: ”The proof is below, 88,48% reduction at 20Hz. Have you ever seen an independently conducted vibration measurement from any other audio-isolator manufacturer?”

Sounds really impressive, but our question is how can this be considered “independent” testing? And therefore how does this test data and these claims hold any merit? We have reviewed dozens of formal third party test documents and this document has very little in common with any our company has peer reviewed over the last dozen years.

The initial problem is that this test document does not properly define the test scenarios nor does it even list the third party “independent” agency or university that conducted the testing. You pay big money for testing and the right to back the results with the facilities credentials. Typically such results will be presented for publication (by the manufacturer of the product or technology) and would clearly include the identifying information about the independent testing party, as well as their industry specific associations and accreditations.

Example: NETA (The InterNational Electrical Testing Association) or ICSA Labs who test the built-in security functions in smart phones and tablets.

Any reputable test facility or university is going to be a member of one or many of these organizations that set the industry standard for product testing and verification.

Next is a more fundamental problem of the testing itself. Beyond being poorly designed and defined, the testing data is simply incomplete.

Where is the control? What is the dependent variable? How would the object or shelf be read without Solid-Tech product in place? 

Taking a measurement from the floor and the shelf is a “measurement”. Comparing two comparable scenarios where the tester changes one dependent variable and analyzes the results is “a test”. 88% reduction means nothing if you do not compare it to some second configuration. For all we know one could get the same “measurement” by placing the same equipment on the rack specified without the isolation pads or with a peanut butter sandwich… 88% reduction might be the normal. With the information provided in this “test”, you can’t argue with us. We simply do not know. You need to take TWO measurements and then analyze the difference (delta).

In our opinion, someone took the time to make this look like it is supposed to be a formal “independent” test – room temperature, equipment used, type of flooring?, etc. – but there is no information about any testing Control or constraints.

These “independent” test results have not one fingerprint of a professional controlled third party test. In fact, what is to keep any company (even Star Sound) from putting together in-house tests to prove the  efficiency/effectiveness of any device or furthermore, what is stopping the manufacturer from tweaking the test parameters until they got just the desired results… and then post it on their website?

This is why they call it “independent THIRD party testing”. True unbiased controlled test scenarios. In my opinion, what Solid-Tech has posted on their website is nothing more than Creative-Marketing designed to woo any non-engineer into thinking “WOW, this is great! And look it really works!! I need this!” … Creative Marketing.

Now onto the technology; this product is a damping system attempting to isolate noise that is coming from the floor, rather than the source which is the sound, voice coil and the cone of the speaker system - our choice of focus. It appears that they put the speakers or system in a room with a 70-80 db sound source and measure the movement of the speakers or objects used as a stand in for the speaker. 70-80 db is fairly loud and this seems to be shown at all frequencies.  

The 20 Hz geophone sees data up to about 150 hz with a central frequency of 20 hz. They are saying that the energy comes from the sound pressure they have created from the loudspeakers. The geophone is a low pass filter as it does not react well to frequencies above about 160 Hz. The same can be said about the 70 hz and 150 hz geophones. These instruments are band pass filters where the response curve is a max at 70 or 150 hz, so again, they are just various band pass filters that show the response of the speaker to an outside compressive wave.  

A more applicable test might be to record single notes (we prefer cellos) in a studio then play them through a speaker resting on Audio Points™, then repeat on another product (say MD springs) and finally the Solid Tech feet. ‘C’ scale four octaves with 6 seconds per note recording should provide enough information for any ear to hear the difference in footer systems.

In comparison, Audio Points remove an interfering polarization of shear created by the speakers. Please note, our technology and approach has nothing to do with movement of the room or compressive waves (sound) in the room so including them in this test would provide a different functioning product to compare with the two isolation spring based products.

You could add RTA charted frequency curves to the test which will assist in showing what each design is doing to the sound. No guessing what the Real Time Analyzer measurement really accomplishes as all these tests are “highly subjective” at best. You are measuring more for what sounds you will hear from the same speaker on the different feet.

Star Sound is less concerned about the deadening of the speaker relative to floor noise as our products reduce floor noise and reduce resonance as it forms in real time within and on the surface of the loudspeaker or component via rapid energy transfer to ground.

Our concern is more about the amount of resonance that continues to build up over time, layering and propagating on all smooth surfaces on and within the loudspeaker. This detrimental resonance prohibits driver functionality, signal and speed, speaker dispersion patterns and driver time alignment affecting overall “operational efficiency” of the speaker system. Isolation damped footers do not take these elements of functionality or resonance build up into account.

http://starsoundaudio.com/CMS/uploads/vibration-and-coulomb-friction-2013_001.pdf

Not to challenge this company's testing methods alone, there are others far more creative, some with videos, charts, mechanical displays demonstrating how their products’ function based on their methodologies and theorems where any engineering team could easily prove their efforts to be nothing more than Creative Marketing tools designed to increase sales; especially when there are no results from independent or third party testing being presented. Please note: Star Sound has absolutely nothing against any business using creative marketing tactics to fuel sales.

Star Sound invested heavily in third party testing because our technology adapts, is scalable and expand in other industries so it is worth the capital investment.

Our comments here are based on our experiences involving product and technology testing.

Thank you for your time,

Star Sound

Mapman stated - "gk your recall and logic are both flawed. You collect your facts selectively and draw conclusions as you see fit.

I totally agree with you mapman. He attempts to provide so much information (which is a good thing) but then takes parts of the discussion totally out of context for his own purpose only to argue or belittle his rival.

Just one Example of the many: Mr. Kait says -

“Funny. 88% reduction at 20 Hz is NOT normal. You guys apparently still don’t understand isolation or what a low pass filter actually is. What is not mentioned in the report - but is obviously the case - is that at frequencies higher than 20 Hz the isolation effectiveness is even higher than 88%, for purposes of discussion circa 97% at 30 Hz and 99.5% at 40 Hz.  Those number are fairly typical of ANY reasonably good mass-on-spring isolation device. Furthermore, it’s as obvious as the nose on your face that the 88% reduction was compared to the case without the isolation. You guys just can’t seem to catch a break. ;-)”

His Keywords are WHAT IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE REPORT - But Obviously the Case is....

Mr. Kait is making an argument that has no basis. He is making nothing more than a very large assumption. At the end of the day, the topic in conversation was to provide our opinion on independent third-party testing where this test was not. Therefore the data has no value outside of good marketing.

Mr. Kait should have come back when he or they have an actual formal third-party report that doesn't have homemade Microsoft XL graphs and poorly defined language. Then he could claim independent results that carry weight.

Mr. Kait says -

“http://www.solid-tech.net/products/discs-of-silence-4537455 Finally! Someone was smart enough to copy my original Nimbus Sub Hertz Isolation platform design;”  

Accusing Solid-Tech of being a copycat is really, really low. Please provide us any Patents or a Trademark on the original design that supports such a statement. 

Mr. Kait, in my opinion you tend to lower the bar wherever you go even when a mistake is made and apology follows.

Example:

Mr. Kait hammers back after an apology is made  - “Sorry to hear about your memory. If my memory serves it’s actually you who has been doing most of the name calling. In fact if I strip away the name calling and attitude and shilling of your products from the majority of your posts here there’s really not that much left. So that would make you a liar. A liar with a bad memory. If you can’t keep up with the discussion can I respectfully suggest you find someone who can?”

Calling anyone a liar is far below that of whale crap, so unless you provide undeniable evidence to back your claim, I suggest you go play daddy on someone else. Mr. Kait, you are stepping on thin ice here, liable for slander and defamation of character. Next time we will defend via other means.

I have related to you in comedic fashion on a few posts, feeling the need to 'reply in kind' to your 'observations' on the people posting, our company personnel and myself included (tit for tat) - but leave the audience to determine who the name caller is or better yet, anyone can review any of your historical 4,000+ posts in order to assist with their decision. You have been doing this long before my personal involvement on this forum. In my opinion, if you cannot on occasion take some of your own medicine, you might want to visit someone who can help you become a more positive person.

In audio - “product performance” and “value” always trumps the written opinions of anyone, anywhere, anytime and anyplace... including those who personally ridicule or insult others (accidently or directly) on this forum  that are seeking personal gain, self or company recognition, self satisfaction or whatever they were never able to accomplish in life (everyone included).

Very truly yours,

Robert - Star Sound

Mr. Kait,

One last time, so I'll make it short and then I walk away…but really did you ever consider looking in a mirror before you insult everyone including people with credentials that far exceed anything you have ever accomplished in life? You have zero respect for anyone and you do know that music represents everything your are not?

Kait picks on another poster’s opinion: In case you hadn’t  noticed this thread is actually about the technical end of things, not the sound. Nothing wrong with arguing about sound but it’s subjective.

That sums it all up right there… a technical writer who manufactures products for the sound industry based on theorems and specifications and does not reference or listen to amplifiers and loudspeakers. Musical quality is subjective and likewise so is every theorem surrounding vibration management in audio including “isolation and springs”.

To the best of our knowledge, there is no third party independent testing recorded anywhere comparing any one theory or products to another involving vibration management in audio. Therefore the “technical end of things” is also considered “highly subjective”. 

Spring Dude, I would much rather work with listeners, audiophiles and music lovers solving issues and improving their sound systems instead of debating all matters subjective in audio with such a negative individual like yourself.

Whereas you guys and your benefactor wish to allow vibrations to roam free - unrestrained, undamped and unisolated - I say the only good vibration is a dead vibration!

Mr. Kait, vibration particularly in a musical environment does ‘roam free’ however we prefer to “mechanically ground” resonance caused from vibration as a method of vibration management. I fail to understand your statement since “ground” is the final resting place for vibrational energy. 

Killer - isn’t it?

The video you provided shows how someone can perform the water in the glass experiment incorrectly, although I have to confess I didn’t think that was actually possible. The lemon, ice and stirrer damp the vibrations that might otherwise appear and the glass should be filled to the brim since the ripples appear in the surface of the water. It’s not rocket science. At least you tried. Lol

Kait Dude, this experiment was done in early 2015. The fluid thing was a byproduct of what the actual goal and achievement in sound reproduction featured.

http://starsoundaudio.com/reviewsDetail.php?37

I saw glasses of wine filled to near capacity too but guessing our crew did not include them in the video shot so tell you what… why not send us a glass of your choice, thinking a tall, lean solid support similar to a wine glass highly susceptive to vibration would do. We will fill it to the brim with a liquid of your choice. Since we were unaware of the damping factor of ice (square cubes could have different variables than round) and toothpicks (did not take those damping factors into consideration either) and the limes as well, we will repeat this test without any of the variables - just liquid.

Law Sound is on board and very much interested in hearing what a Sistrum Platform does for the mixer and effects. All we need now is a great band and venue so I’m working on it. Send us the glass and provide us the test parameters because we would not want to forget anything.

Better yet, how about you personally attending? Come on Kait, step away from your keyboard and participate in a live sound experiment. Think about it, if we fail, you can actually embarrass Star Sound on AudioGon and if not, we won’t say a thing - either way, you win!

Furthermore, many devices marketed as isolation devices are actually either coupling devices or resonators. Thus the statement that all isolation devices sound different can actually be viewed as an excellent example of a strawman argument.  

Oh my, now this is scary - we actually agree with you! The Audio Industry has incorrectly labeled vibration management with the title of ‘isolation’ as that word automatically leads readers and listeners down a single ended pathway of thinking and understanding.

Isolation defined – separate from other related factors or things.

This industry labels every equipment rack being sold an Isolation Rack whereas wood furniture racking is clearly not an isolation product. There are quite a few furniture companies who use cones and believe their designs isolate. The same is true with cones made of metals or any material for that matter, they are always called Isolation Cones where their functions do not isolate as you are aware.

Isolation is but one of many processes in dealing with Vibration Management. Absorption, damping, resonance energy transfer, dissipation, phase cancellation or diffusion are other processes used where those formulas do not function the same as an isolation design.

In our opinion the word “isolation” is well overplayed and continues to absolutely confuse the Industry.

Finally. Most audiophiles continually change their systems so it's a moving train and no one should expect his sound to remain constant for very long. Thus attempts to compare isolation devices or ANY class of audio device or cable might be fruitless.

Do Not agree with this statement - 380,000 Audio Points™ sold yet where are they? Rarely are any available here on AudioGon… over 5,000 Original Sistrum Platforms™ sold and likewise not too many up for grabs either. I believe comparisons are always being made and listeners hear the differences - every time - and keep what they like.  (Shill shill shill :)

I personally find your diatribes repetitive, uneducated, and self serving to the extreme. They simply attack your competitors and pump up your own products. Maybe it’s time to call this thread DONE and stick a fork in it.

Speaking of which, every historic event or achievement in your lifetime and every product you have ever retailed is in print and shilled somewhere on this thread too! But I have to ask; what were you doing from 2002 till now? Surely you have made advancements somewhere along the line? Did you ever improve on your original spring design? Just wondering…if Townshend really did copy your product. 

Mirror mirror on the wall...

"OMG", I am sounding more like you everyday. Murphy called last night and told me to Vacate the Kait and get back to business. No need to prove anything. Father time will run its course and when the Patents are approved, I might return just so you can take a shot at crapping all over those too - just for kicks.

In closing, Mr Kait, How can a lowly sound engineer who lived his lifetime involved in music, uneducated and self serving businessman (now that one is a real laugher if you think about it) compete with a retiree from NASA who spends what little time is left on the planet dedicated to a life of ridiculing and belittling people here on Audiogon?

You win the debate!!!, simply on attrition. 

The only positive thing from participating here is that everyone of your victims soon realizes that there is more to music than reading the many highly repetitive insults and innuendos directed at them on your behalf and finally moves on. Ever wonder why you are a leader in postings as well as disqualifications from participation? Too bad you cannot bring yourself to actually help others instead of what you do best. What a waste of engineering prowess and time.

Come on Kait, live a little, put down that keyboard, step outside your home and comfort zone. Agree to meet up with us on the road for a fluid test or corporate event. Meet the people behind our technology and learn something new if you have the cahoonas, or sit at home every night and continue on with your retirement.

Either way, the invitation is always open and you will be treated as a professional and welcomed, just call.

Now Exit - stage right, Seeeya!

Robert

A Complete Solution you say ?

Now that’s funny!

No proof - only stale words and sound bites with a cut and paste notoriety accompanied with second class insults, however...

You have turned out to be our best marketing tool here on AudioGon. Why pay for advertising when we have you?

Keep up the good work GK!

Happy Holidays,

Robert