randy-11
149 posts
10-27-2016 7:48pm
I think we all know who the troll is
We all definitely know who the pinhead is.
149 posts
10-27-2016 7:48pm
I think we all know who the troll is
We all definitely know who the pinhead is.
Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?
Mechanical grounding or isolation from vibration has been a hot topic as of late. Many know from experience that footers, stands and other vibration technologies impact things that vibrate a lot like speakers, subs or even listening rooms (my recent experience with an "Energy room"). The question is does it have merit when it comes to electronics and if so why? Are there plausible explanations for their effect on electronics or suggested measurement paradigms to document such an effect?
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
actually we're not rotating through space. We're rotating about the Earth’s axis. The speed around the sun of the Earth is a different story. Care to take a gander how fast that is? Then there’s the speed of the Earth as part of the Milky Way Galaxy, rotating in the spiral galaxy. In addition let’s not forget the speed that the Milky Galaxy is traveling towards what, the Great Attractor? Anyone care to take a gander at the speed of the expanding universe? The Earth is moving at great speed away from the Big Bang along with everything else. The take away from all this is that speed is relative to your frame of reference. pop quiz: if the universe slows down and starts to contract does time start to go backward? cheerios |
jab 351 posts 10-04-2016 9:04pm I believe that maple has a profound affect with electronics, more so with electronics than with speakers. Try maple before you decide. one thing to consider is that the material used for the top plate of an isolation device, for example one placed on a shelf of a rack, is considerably less important than when used alone, supported by cones. For example, many folks complain that granite and marble ring too much and shouldn’t be used for audio. In fact - for isolation applications - granite and marble are very appropriate for isolation device top plates since they are very stiff and hard materials. Hardness and stiffness are important attributes when resisting rotational forces. The potential for ringing is minimized by virtue of the fact the top plate itself is isolated along with the component. I’m also a big fan of bluestone for use as a top plate on springs or air bladders as it’s inexpensive and can be found in nice 3" thick slabs. I think you’ll find 3" slabs of bluestone don’t ring a whole lot. |
bdp24 1,567 posts 10-06-2016 1:01am I can’t say about hi-fi platforms, but maple is the preferred wood for drum shells because of it’s desirable (for drums) resonance and timbre. Take a gander at Charlie Watts’ snare drum video, https://youtu.be/mbVOn3RwEbI |
Audiopoint wrote, Questions to ponder: Q - Do the audible effects from a more dense wood reduce the sonic signature that vibrating wood adds in a sound room? A - Maple generally sounds "good" better than many materials yet is not particularly dense. Going one step further materials like hardwoods that vibrate when excited by external forces are not necessarily bad for the sound inasmuch as the wood, maple or whatever acts like a resonator, dissipating the vibration in the rack or stand. Similarly stand or racks that are less rigid than others can actually sound better since seismic type vibration will not be transmitted quite so easily as rigid structures. Thus, the popularity of the Flexy Rack, for example. Isolation effectiveness is a function of how easily a stand or rack can move in the direction of interest. A flexible, or wobbly stand would approximate or approach the behavior of mass on spring systems, one might observe. Q - Do denser woods actually sound more musical or are we hearing less colorations or noise? Keep in mind we are listening to a block of wood vibrate in a listening room environment and not that of a spruce inlay on a tuned up Martin guitar. A - Density is not the most desirable characteristic of the material, otherwise maple wouldn’t sound so good. It’s a medium density wood. Let’s look at Moingo as in Mpingo disc for a second, which IIRC is African rosewood, a rather dense wood AND it resonates like a son of a gun. Yet, used sparingly, it’s very good for the sound. A resonator? You decide. By the way, I would like to see Graphene used more widely in audio applications. Graphene is now used in fuses and high end tennis racquets since it’s *extremely* strong and lightweight. How about tonearms, cartridges, iso platforms....hmmmmmm. Geoff Kait machina dynamica |
There are a bunch of really interesting designs for audiophile and non-audiophile iso stands, many of which are actually not active designs, not the least of which is the complicated Minus K negative stiffness stand and the magentic levitation types. I appreciate any device with very low resonant frequency, for example 0.5 Hz is a very good number. The Vibraplane and Minus K both came to audiophiles courtesy of Newport Corp, the mother of vibration isolation devices for industry, active and passive. I also like the idea of dual mass-spring layers and even sapphire threads or even fishing line for want of sapphire thread. Lol I’m also a fan of DIY bungee cord device in lieu of the usual DIY tennis ball or bicycle inner tube type stuff. I also like to suspend all cables and power cords using springy rubber bands or thread with rubber bands on the ends. finally, as I’ve intimated before, aside from the technical aspects, there is an art to isolation: how much internal damping, how much damping for the top plate, how to interface the component to the top plate, how to interface the iso device to the floor or rack, all these issues are critical for obtaining the best sound. cheers |
The word "microphonic" itself is a little ambiguous as even tubes that are referred to or marketed as non-microphonic are in fact slightly microphonic, which can be easily demonstrated by using some effective tube dampers. Furthermore even things like circuit boards or cables or solid aluminum chassis that are not "microphonic" or considered to be "microphonic" are susceptible to vibration when excited by their resonant frequencies. That’s the case whether the component is tube or solid state. Funny story. A friend of mine said watch this. He was sitting in a chair on the other side of the room from his stand with a CD player on the top. Next to the CD player was a glass of water. Next, he began tapping his knee with his finger very softly. Immediately ripples appeared on the surface of the water in the glass, synchronized with the tapping. |
For starters mag lev for audio, even audio turntables, has been around like forever. Hiw long has the Mag Lev Verdier turntable been around? Gotta be twenty years. And the Verdier has a really heavy platter to boot. Ditto the Relaxa Mag Lev iso stand. Noto Bene: Mag lev is great for trains, for audio not so terrific, at least it's easy to implement. It has issues. If Mag Lev was so great don’t you think LIGO the program for detecting gravity waves would have incorporated it somewhere in their iso system? Hel-looo! |
theaudiotweak 1,372 posts 10-13-2016 6:19pm Geoff Shear waves do not travel thru the air so they cannot be a part of your acoustic waves.. Shear waves are part of how a speaker operates as well as that of a vinyl record and the stylus that tracks that record. Removing or reducing a polarity of shear will increase the operating efficiency of a device and in the case of audio make for better sound. Tom. Starsound Technologies if you're not referring to vibration or acoustic waves traveling through the air and producing vibration then you have discovered a new science. Congratulations. |
theaudiotweak 1,371 posts 10-13-2016 4:58pm Unless the device is properly grounded it will suffer from shear wave interference and the resulting inefficiencies..even if it floats in air. No it won't. That's what damping is for. By inspection the frequencies of acoustic waves are well above seismic frequencies, which are not amenable to damping. Case solved. Shear wave interference. Wow! Did you think that up all by yourself? The resulting inefficiencies? Groan..... |
2channel8 wrote, "But seriously, folks. I am lucky that my speakers are sitting on concrete. They sound best that way. I’ve tried a few intermediaries. Wood platforms, steel points, stiff felt. None helped, most made no difference." But have you compared the concrete stands to decoupling? While I suspect we all agree that different materials produce different sound, there seems to be a fairly wide difference of opinions regarding coupling vs decoupling (isolation). As Townshend points out, isolating the speakers has two benefits - isolating the speakers from the forces of seismic type vibration and isolating the rest if the system from mechanical feedback produced by the speakers. 2channel8 also wrote, "My CD/SACD player does sound slightly better with sorbothane feet. Not so much that I’d be motivated to invest more. Am I missing out? Would a more expensive Isolation system improve the CD/SACD SQ more than the difference between sorbothane and nothing?" Sorbothane is one of those materials that seems like a really good idea but in practice can do more harm than good inasmuch as Sorbothane, like a lot of soft or compliant materials like say rubber, even lead, stores energy and prevents it’s rapid exist from the system. CD/SACD players in my experience benefit greatly from isolation. One reason I suspect that’s true is that the laser assembly itself is mounted on a set of tiny springs and that laser assembly is therefore at the mercy of the resonant frequency of the springs, circa 8 Hz. Thus low frequency seismic vibration comes up from the floor into the CD/SACD player and excites the laser assembly, over stressing the laser servo feedback system. Of course there are many other reasons to disallow structural vibration from the CD/SACD player such as the circuit boards and their sensitive microprocessors on board. This is not to say that certain things in the CD/SACD player themselves cannot produce unwanted vibration as well, you know, things like capacitors and transformers. cheers |
Randy11 wrote, "Otherwise, you will have to show me some data. It will be easy to set up an experiment using a vibrometer or your laser interferometry test equipment. If you don’t own the latter maybe B&W will loan you theirs, which they use to assess cone breakup." Thanks for volunteering. Let us know how it turns out. Be sure and use double blind testing. |
randy-11 74 posts 10-18-2016 12:02am theaudiotweak1,373 posts10-13-2016 3:19pmGeoff Shear waves do not travel thru the air so they cannot be a part of your acoustic waves... That is correct. They do propagate in any fluid, only solids. The guy arguing with you above is completely wrong. As side from the obvious grammatical errors in your statement, "they do propagate in any fluid, only solids," any wave can propagate through a solid OR fluid. That is why we have shear waves and shear forces in air. And why there are shock waves in air. Apparently you fellers don’t know the difference between a force and a wave. Acoustic (sound) waves - the ones that travel through air - are mechanical waves, just like waves in solids. And sound waves travel through heavier liquids like water and even solids. In fact sound waves travel faster through heavier liquids and solids than through air. And that’s why, in terms of their effect on components, insomuch as they are mechanical waves, acoustic waves produce vibration in components. There is no difference - in terms of their *effect* - between the vibration produced by acoustic waves and the vibration produced internally by transformers, motors, etc. I consider this particular case closed. |
Audiopoint wrote, "(repeat): Funny thing how you continuously attack everything and everyone across the vast audio nation, yet when asked to respond in kind you buckle under the pressure by never answering any questions “whatsoever” directed at you. From my standpoint - totally inexcusable." Not really sure why you’re so angry and frustrated. Actually I have always answered questions here. I suspect you’re just not used to debate or think there is no debate. In any case you seem to be grasping at straws and actually it’s you who is avoiding answering the question. What’s so funny you apparently are under the impression you’re the only game in town, that it's your way or the highway. Everybody’s got something to hide except me and my monkey. Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts |
randy-11 80 posts 10-18-2016 8:17pm you seem to think that a low post count implies something? really, it implies only that people are doing other things most of the time and I have nothing against good sound in a car, or with people doing installations but it is obvious you don’t understand bioacoustics or electronics, so your attacks on others are really ill-taken my answer to the person above asking why you do that is that is likely a form of psychological compensation .......................... Whoa! What’s up with all the psychological mumbo jumbo, Scooter. Save the drama for yo mama. |
randy-11 75 posts 10-18-2016 8:04pm geoff - you are completely wrong and any undergraduate physics student could set you right or try google Google indicates that you do car audio installation, and I hope that is working out for you That is the funniest post of the week. This thread certainly attracts all types. ;-) |
theaudiotweak 1,377 posts 10-19-2016 9:21am Lot of factors that predict the speed and direction of shear waves and how they travel. Not spelled out in your over the counter cook books. Once you get on board the whole six directions of motion train for seismic vibration you will begin to appreciate that there is actually no need to predict speed, direction or amplitude of shear waves or any other type of waves. I suspect you're simply posturing and trying to suggest you actually know something about waves or seismic vibration by harping on "shear waves." The sooner you guys get off your high horse and realize that yours is not the only game in town nor is it complete the better off you will be in the long run. The only way you can possibly deal wih seismic waves is to decouple the component from them, and I'm referring to rotational (bending) forces in additional to the usual vertical forces and forces in the horizontal plane. Have a nice day |
audiopoint 41 posts 10-18-2016 8:59pm Geoff's words: Everybody’s got something to hide except me and my monkey. Naw, I just can’t bring myself to say it… but am assuming this is where you learned about handling vibration? Robert I learned physics in school, Tom. I suggest you go back and complete your education. |
theaudiotweak 1,378 posts 10-19-2016 12:37pm Seismic waves are just backround noise no different than traveling in a car at high speed or flying in a jet its all relative.Human nature has adjusted. The methods you use actually generate more inertia for a speaker voice coil to overcome. Resulting in a loss of information. We will respond in long and detailed order soon.. Tom. Star Sound Technologies. I am having a beautiful day at the ocean." Spare me the details. Everything you just said it completely wrong. To the point of absurdity, actually. Better stay at the ocean. You need a vacation. have a nice day |
agear OP 1,166 posts 10-19-2016 2:08pm Geoff, yes SS is not the only game in town. You have game too: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/stands-machina-dynamica-bio-mikro-g-isolation-stand-2016-07-09-acc... Since this is your latest generation of products, please explain this development in light of this thread. Not counting my sub Hertz iso platform that is no longer made, and not counting the Promethean Base iso stand also no longer made, I have a number of products that address both seismic vibration, airborne produced vibration and self induced vibration. Applications of my products include component isolation, transformer isolation, circuit board isolation/damping, speaker isolation (most notably subwoofers), CD transport damping, capacitor damping, RCA connector damping, glass damping, and others. For most isolation applications I supply small cryogenically treated high carbon steel springs of various spring rates capable of supporting any load up to many hundreds of pounds. The new Bio Mikro G iso stand mimics the biological characteristics of the head of a woodpecker. The woodpecker is able to peck wood at high rates of speed and extremely high decelerations per peck, around 1200 G’s or so. The Bio Mikro G utilizes bamboo, viscoelastic material and pure glass microspheres to mimic the woodpecker head’s bone, elastic layer and spongy layer, respectively, surrounding the bird’s brain. Without such evolutionary features, the woodpecker would surely damage his brain and or die. All springs and even the Woodpecker stand are low profile for ease of use on tables or racks. |
agear OP Geoffkait:The Bio Mikro G utilizes bamboo, viscoelastic material and pure glass microspheres to mimic the woodpecker head’s bone, elastic layer and spongy layer, respectively, surrounding the bird’s brain. Without such evolutionary features, the woodpecker would surely damage his brain and or die. "Walk us through the development process. Anything empirical to base these designs on?" I prefer to keep you in suspense. I prefer not to walk you through the development process at this time. I plan on developing a page on my web site for the Bio Mikro g iso stand some time in the future. Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts |
agear OP 1,170 posts 10-20-2016 2:03pm Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts I expected that answer. No suspense. It’s always the same with you guys. "What about this. What about that?" ;-) cheers Mirror mirror.... Actually it’s not mirror, mirror. You’re the one who keeps demanding, what about this, what about that? Have a nice day |
theaudiotweak 1,380 posts 10-20-2016 11:19am Geoff Send me 2 of your platforms for evaluation. I will remove the glass beads of 1 or you could send one empty and refill with our Micro Bearing steel and then direct couple the base with Audiopoints. Then we can do a direct ab comparison using the same cd player. We could just move the player from one base to the other. Same cd same volume level set on the preamp. We could make a skirt to hide the bottom of both platforms so the audience couldnt see the difference. Use our ears and a calibrated mic and spectrum software to validate the process. Sould be very informative. Tom Hey, that sounds real interesting. Thanks but no thanks. Besides, I have previously stated I do not sell or send for evaluation any of my products to anyone on these threads. have a nice day geoff at Machina Dynamica |
theaudiotweak 1,381 posts 10-20-2016 1:31pm An even greater enhancement would be the addition of our brass coupling discs under the Audiopoints. The fact that both the point and the disc are of the same material means they both have the same shear velocity and that the disc effectively makes for a much more efficient impedance match of materials. Hope this description helps. Tom Brass. Sorry, Tom. Not a big fan. There are better materials. |
agear OP 1,169 posts 10-20-2016 10:50am I prefer to keep you in suspense. I prefer not to walk you through the development process at this time. I plan on developing a page on my web site for the Bio Mikro g iso stand some time in the future. Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts I expected that answer. No suspense. It's always the same with you guys. "What about this. What about that?" ;-) cheers |
theaudiotweak 1,382 posts 10-20-2016 3:00pm If the shear velocity is to high it will burn the hair on your ears. We have tested many. Brass is the metal of music.Tom Whoa! What? So now it’s shear velocity, not shear wave? This entire conversation is burning my ears. As for brass I’m sorry to be the one to inform you guys, but you’re deaf. Apparently you’ve reached what I like to call a local maximum. Good luck with all that. have a nice day |
randy-11 96 posts 10-20-2016 11:33pm what makes you think brass is better than anything else? Brass saxes are the metal of music BTW. Actually brass is easy to fabricate and relatively cheap. That’s the reason brass is used in many musical instruments. Silver saxophones sound better, however. And CRYO'D brass or silver saxophones sound even better. So brass is the metal of inexpensive musical instruments. Hey, just like audiophile cones! Listen some time to Galway’s GOLD flute. Which may or may not be cryo’d. Have a nice day |
agear OP 1,171 posts 10-20-2016 10:08pm And you keep dodging without adding any novel data to the conversation. I suggest you encourage end users of your products to chime in. I like hearing from end users who have fiddled in this domain. So, back to the regularly scheduled programming..... Dodging? I’ve done no such thing. Without adding novel data? Are you drunk? Stop trying to make a Federal case out of this. I don’t answer questions having to do with sources, how I develop things, how I test things, how I get my ideas, or in some cases the operational mechanisms of how certain things work. That would be stupid. That’s because they’re, you know, proprietary. Loose ships sink ships. I will, if I can, general technical questions or questions specific to my products. For those interested I have quite a few technical papers on my web site. See this page for the links to technical papers, including vibration isolation, the Clever Little Clock and even the Teleportation Tweak, http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina6.htm cheers geoff kait machina dynamica we do artificial atoms right |
Robert wrote, "The Selmer MK VI sax has been a long time favorite of mine in studios and on stage but in my opinion, we should ask a few professional horn players which is the preferred material for sonic instead of accepting the opinion of one who holds a degree in aerospace." Well, in my defense I have been experimenting with materials of all kinds for more than 20 years for audio applications, especially in connection with my sub Hertz iso platform where you can really hear the differences among various materials, both for mounting the platform itself and for mounting the component on the to shelf. That’s why I think I can say with some authority brass is not as good sounding as some other materials, for example NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics, with hardness just below diamond on the Moh hardness scale. I have also used real diamonds in one of my products (crystals) and simply as an experiment, you know, to appreciate their super high rate of energy transfer. BTW one thing you might not know about aerospace engineers is they are taught strength of materials, indeterminant structures and statistical thermodynamics. cheerios |
Robert wrote, "This is where we differ. You cannot prevent resonance from entering a component. You cannot prevent resonance from forming on circuits, resistors, caps, etc within the component - it is already there when you turn the electricity on or volume up. You cannot prevent vibration in music - music is vibration. How does one treat resonance? Historical data teaches us vibration is bad and to kill vibration via isolation, diffusion and absorption processes and materials (heavy damping). Along with killing the vibration you also kill the dynamics and harmonic structures and more importantly you kill the elusive and fragile “live dynamic” (the ultimate goal). Physics - kill something and it is dead, not to return to life; yet isn’t our primary goal to seek the live performance?" ................................... Yup, all of which is taken directly from the Michael Green Book, "Vibrations get a Bad Rap, Let Them Roam Free." Since when did you come up with the weird idea that vibrations can’t be prevented from entering the component? When you and Michael smoke um peace pipe? |
theaudiotweak 1,385 posts 10-21-2016 9:24pm Geoff I thought you knew that the refractive polarity angle steered away from the component was determined by the shear velocity of the material. Tom There you go with those big words, again. But I’m afraid this is simply another case of your making a wrong assumption. As fate would have it I was not using diamonds under a component. One imagine when the points of cones like audio points are pointed up the seismic shear forces are directed into the component more easily, eh? |
agear OP 1,172 posts 10-21-2016 8:14pm Geoffkait:For those interested I have quite a few technical papers on my web site. See this page for the links to technical papers, including vibration isolation, the Clever Little Clock and even the Teleportation Tweak, http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina6.htm to which agear replied, "I presume you are using the word "technical" loosely here. In regards to the Teleportation Tweak you state: 4. What does the Teleportation Tweak sound like? By attenuating the deleterious effects of the particular Information Field associated with the cell phone or land line phone the sound in the room becomes much closer to the sound that you would hear in an ideal world, I.e., a world without such subconscious interference that reduces the listener’s sensory perception. After the Teleportation Tweak is performed the listener can more easily hear the complete and undistorted sound that his system is FULLY CAPABLE OF PRODUCING, that the system was producing BEFORE the TT. In other words, the SOUND WAS IN THE ROOM THE WHOLE TIME, he just couldn’t fully appreciate the sound quality since his hearing ability had always been in a degraded state and not up to the level he always assumed it was. So maybe Michael and Bobby shared a few peace pipes. It appears as if you were an early disciple and test subject of Timothy Leary based on your somewhat schizoid mentation. Maybe I am dim, but I do not understand the paragraph referenced above. Time to call in the experts for an explanation. ;)...." ......................... Actually it’s not schizoid. It’s just that the whole freewheeling information field/Morphic Resonance subject has been largely overlooked by audiophiles, or dismissed as hokum. It just hasn’t been discussed much. So whenever any reference to information fields pops up audiophiles tend to react as you just did, with dismay. ;-) Everything is not cut and dry in audio land. Please note quite a few of my products are based on information fields and Morphic fields. Some of these products have been around like forever. The clever clock, Teleportation Tweak, Morphic Message Labels, the Quantum Temple Bell, and Pretzel Logic Reef Knot ( a PWB product). So when I say the immediate environment affects the sound I’m not referring to room acoustics, at least not in the traditional sense. What you don’t see can hurt you. ;-) So, how do I define the word technical? Anything to do with physical reality. Follow? geoff at Machina Dynamica |
oleschool 466 posts 10-22-2016 2:20am I really enjoy this thread , among others with Geoff and Tom . I actually look forward to checking them . : ) what i would enjoy seeing is your system Geoff . How come i can’t find a listing or pics anywhere or in virtual systems . I have read you are using a modded discman ? Can you elaborate on your setup ..please without a cryptic comment ? i’m sure many are interested in your setup. How often does a teleportation tweek need to be reset or recharged ? Thanks 😬 I listen mostly to a modded Portable Sony Walkman with vintage Sony Ultralight headphones. The mods include Codename Turquoise treatment, Dark Matter treatment, WA Quantum Chip for headphone cable, some PWB treatments of various kinds. All CDs in current rotation are treated in any number of ways, including but not limited to cryogenic treatment or home freezer, Dark Matter, Super Intelligent Chip, and extensive coloring with various color pens. I also use PWB treatments extensively for all rooms and some of my own products for all rooms (e.g., Flying Saucers for Windows and Flying Saucers for Unused Wall Outlets. The Portable Walkman is isolated on a Woody the Woodpecker isolation stand with 8 lb of glass microbeads in a deep glass tray. For this particular stand I am using a thick glass plate directly on the bed of microbeads as the top plate. My commercial woodpecker iso stand varies considerably from this setup, which is kind of a test bed. Or bed of The entire iso stand is supported by NASA grade ceramic cones. The Walkman sits on two addition stages of isolation - (1) strained layer damper that employs a slab of aluminum and viscoelastic material and (2) a set of my Super Soft Springs for very lightweight components. I also listen to a Sony portable cassette player with same set up. Just to to point out some advantages of such low mass minimalist systems: no house AC, no AC ground, no power cords, no interconnects, no speaker cables, no crossovers, no transformers and no fuses. The Teleportation Tweak takes 20 seconds to do over the phone and is permanent. The exception is when the customer changes phones in which case the Teleportation Tweak would have to be redone. For customers with more than one phone, ideally all phones should be treated separately. The Teleportation Tweak improves both audio SQ and video picture quality. geoff kait machinadynamica.com we do artificial atoms right |
maplegrovemusic 542 posts 10-22-2016 5:29pm Still cannot and never will answer a direct question Mr Kaitt ? Why is this ? what would Mr Frued say of your behavior ? Uh, you asked me a question? I guess I assumed you were talking to yourself. You almost spelled Freud's name right. I'll give you partial credit since you seem like a nice guy. |