Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?
Mechanical grounding or isolation from vibration has been a hot topic as of late. Many know from experience that footers, stands and other vibration technologies impact things that vibrate a lot like speakers, subs or even listening rooms (my recent experience with an "Energy room"). The question is does it have merit when it comes to electronics and if so why? Are there plausible explanations for their effect on electronics or suggested measurement paradigms to document such an effect?
Not sure if any of these extremely wise and well written posts pointed this out (although there are far too many to actually compel me to read them), but one of the most obvious effects of stands is the fact that without them all your gear would be on the floor.
No actually its a lighted clock hanging on the wall above all my other cool audio toys. Yes those ARE in fact photons staring you in the face.
I’m not talking about light, grasshopper. See the difference? Besides Dave gave you the answer earlier today. Didn’t you get the memo? If you like I'll explain it to you.
mapman Sure go ahead and explain including why it matters here. You’re like a guy lost at sea and trying to figure out what to do by counting the stars.
Save the drama for your mama. Everything is on the table, nothing is off the table on this thread, grassshopper. If you don’t wish to discuss it don’t. Try not to have a brain aneurism. By the way that’s the worst insult I’ve heard on this thread.😀
“The fault, dear Mapman, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.”
look within, grasshopper
btw Dave already explained it. 😀 In order to figure out whether or not stands have an effect on electronics it would be helpful to understand not only the nature of vibration but also the nature of the audio signal, no? Am I missing something? 😁
Mapman 12-16-2016 5:00pm Well I asked a question and you swung and missed. Strike 1.
how so, moops? I bet you didn’t even read Dave’s post, did you? Tsk, tsk
as they say in the Navy, never up never in. 😀
Here’s the relevant part of Dave's link, moops:
"Heinrich Hertz, a German physicist, applied Maxwell’s theories to the production and reception of radio waves. The unit of frequency of a radio wave -- one cycle per second -- is named the hertz, in honor of Heinrich Hertz. Hertz proved the existence of radio waves in the late 1880s. He used two rods to serve as a receiver and a spark gap as the receiving antennae. Where the waves were picked up, a spark would jump. Hertz showed in his experiments that these signals possessed all of the properties of electromagnetic waves.
Heinrich Hertz With this oscillator, Hertz solved two problems. First, timing Maxwell’s waves. He had demonstrated, in the concrete, what Maxwell had only theorized - that the velocity of radio waves was equal to the velocity of light! (This proved that radio waves were a form of light!) Second, Hertz found out how to make the electric and magnetic fields detach themselves from wires and go free as Maxwell’s waves."
if you need some help with any of the big words feel free to Google them.
just a suggestion, you might try putting your transceiver in the receive mode more and the transmit mode less. 😀
Suspending all cables and power cords above the floor is always a good idea. Suspending them from eye hooks in the ceiling using thread, using a rubber band on one end, will provide very good isolation for the suspended cables and cords. This suspension of cables and cords illustrates the deleterious effect of vibration on the audio signal per se as well as on the electrical power coming into the system.
By the same token the Enid Lumley cable tunnels of yore provide the same sort of protection against vibration and static fields. I.e. Cables suspended by string inside treated tunnels constructed with long sections of three 2x4s, two sides and a top 2x4 with eye hooks on the underside for suspending the cables.
A skeptic would have to be exceptionally hard headed not to see that vibration is bad for the sound wherever it is found in the audio system, no?
The only good vibration is a dead vibration.
geoff kait machina dynamica give me a stiff enough spring and I’ll isolate the world
"For the record, I still use my Pioneer receiver, and it cost all of $150 at Costco".
This from a "consultant" to the audio industry. Need more be said?
Dave
That in and off itself does not mean anything. I have heard people get good sound from very modest systems. A lot of audiophiles do not really know what they are doing and thus struggle through the roulette of endless equipment purchases.
Suspending all cables and power cords above the floor is always a good idea. Suspending them from eye hooks in the ceiling using thread, using a rubber band on one end, will provide very good isolation for the suspended cables and cords. This suspension of cables and cords illustrates the deleterious effect of vibration on the audio signal per se as well as on the electrical power coming into the system.
By the same token the Enid Lumley cable tunnels of yore provide the same sort of protection against vibration and static fields. I.e. Cables suspended by string inside treated tunnels constructed with long sections of three 2x4s, two sides and a top 2x4 with eye hooks on the underside for suspending the cables.
A skeptic would have to be exceptionally hard headed not to see that vibration is bad for the sound wherever it is found in the audio system, no?
Suspending an audio device from the ceiling will never isolate the device from its self generated vibration or resonance. The suspended device in motion ..and everything is in motion needs to dissipate the negative influences of some but not all waveforms. Some waveforms will travel the chassis but can be directed out via a copper ground strap to a mechanical/electrical ground. Without the exit point provided you will have a resonance build up even when suspended.. Tom
Thru the use of a select natural material that has the same velocity of sound as that of air. This material may still perform better if it were also mechanically grounded. Dave..thanks for asking. Thats all. Tom
theaudiotweak in response to the question, how would you isolate the cables? "Thru the use of a select natural material that has the same velocity of sound as that of air. This material may still perform better if it were also mechanically grounded. Dave..thanks for asking."
A perfect example someone who hasn't yet glommed on to what structureborne vibration is all about. Besides, what on Earth is a "material with the same velocity of sound as air? It’s air! Hello! And grounded to what? - the very structure you’re trying to escape?! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. 😩
It would, appear based on recent posts by the "other side," there’s an ever-widening chasm between Mid Fi and Hi End.
Your almost to 21 years and still wrong. Energy being released at a defined exit point is greater than energy trying to enter that same point. Example your mouth and your brain. Tom
theaudiotweak "Suspending an audio device from the ceiling will never isolate the device from its self generated vibration or resonance."
I never said said it would. Besides, there are no internal self generated forces involved with the cables. Unless you want to argue that photons have force. I’ve always said you need to isolate AND damp internal self generated vibrations. Haven’t you been paying attention? That’s a rhetorical question, no need to answer.
then Tom wrote,
"The suspended device in motion ..and everything is in motion needs to dissipate the negative influences of some but not all waveforms. Some waveforms will travel the chassis but can be directed out via a copper ground strap to a mechanical/electrical ground. Without the exit point provided you will have a resonance build up even when suspended."
There are no internal waveforms in the cable to worry about. All electronics should be isolated, too. Everything should be isolated. Hel-loo!
But there are wave forms being developed within the component even when suspended. There are polarties that are part of the intended signal you want to maintain.... and some of the same original wave that travel and create polution. Those you want to exit. You meaning your stuff..cannot erase the bad without killing the good ..as your crap does. Selectivity is not a part of your devices. Keep looking. Tom
theaudiotweak But there are wave forms being developed within the component even when suspended. There are polarties that are part of the intended signal you want to maintain.... and some of the same original wave that travel and create polution. Those you want to exit. You meaning your stuff..cannot erase the bad without killing the good ..as your crap does. Selectivity is not a part of your devices. Keep looking.
Let's try to stay on topic, shall we? I'm talking about suspending cables. Say the drama for yo mama.
Dave asked me a question and I answered him. And I am telling you to keep looking.
Cables vibrate do they not..internally and externally. You can screw up the sound of those as well. I think even suspended audio gear has wires and circuit paths that are degraded when unintended wave forms that run rampant are left with no exit. Your Play Dough is not the answer but is a part of the ongoing illness. Tom
Cable vibration is going to happen even if you put them on little stands (internal vibration? really?), and it is a part of Audio Mysticism to think vibrating cables have any effect on the sound of things (seriously…give it some thought) especially when you consider what happens once the cable reaches the vibrating speaker from which it actually hangs. It is gonna Feel the Groove so to speak, to say nothing (or to say something I suppose) about the fact that the crossover and its little important bits are generally INSIDE the speaker being subjected to serious vibrational mayhem…again…give it some thought as, amazingly, audio still has room for logic.
Understand, wolf, but not sure what to do about the stuff inside the speaker excepting drawing and dissipating the vibration out of the cabinet which I have done. I choose to attack what I can effect.
Cables vibrate do they not..internally and externally. You can screw up the sound of those as well. I think even suspended audio gear has wires and circuit paths that are degraded when unintended wave forms that run rampant are left with no exit. Your Play Dough is not the answer but is a part of the ongoing illness.
Can 50,000 advanced audiophiles who have bought spring based isolation devices in the last 20 years be wrong? Do you think it’s group hypnosis? Do you think they are deluded? Do you think the isolation gurus on LIGO project are deluding themselves?
Nice insults. At least they are more entertaining than usual. 😬
A section of LIGO is suspended but not tethered or grounded. You should ask them if this was by design or have they eliminated a polarity of shear by an alternate method. I would like to know that method. Tom
Why no answers to direct questions? I am not trying to play intellectual one-upsmanship but am only interested in finding real world solutions to real world problems.
"A section of LIGO is suspended but not tethered or grounded. You should ask them if this was by design or have they eliminated a polarity of shear by an alternate method. I would like to know that method."
A section? The entire experiment is suspended but not tethered or grounded. The mirrors, the laser, everything. Otherwise they wouldn’t get the sensitivity to detect the gravity waves. The problem is the seismic vibration, you silly goose, not the self induced vibration. The whole point is to eliminate ALL contacts with the structure and with the Earth. He-loo? If you’re posting drunk please let me know and I’ll take it easy on you.
As for the cables going into the speaker cabinets that’s a problem, too. Fortunately the speaker cabinets can be damped, the speaker cable connectors can be damped and the speakers can be isolated. If it were up to me I’d take the whole crossover network out of the speaker and place it on an isolator. Problem solved.
I don't think there is much or any problem. Obsession with cable vibration is silly, but if it sells product and allows people to worry about vibration ("Damnit Marge, it's EVERYWHERE!") instead of causing trouble elsewhere, I say have at it.
No its not solved because the generated shear energy has no way out. Where there is motion there is shear thru solid materials. Even when suspended. All forms of motion are eliminated? Tom
Still no answers to direct questions. Is their some protocol against asking and answering direct real-world questions on tech-talk that I am not aware of?
I have seen that 3ft beast of a crossover and seen it repaired. We then mounted it to one of our platforms. Suggest that the resistors be replaced when the unit is removed. If you dont want to remove the xover it can be mounted to our devices placed back in the cabinet and tensioned from the bottom. Of course the path is only completed to ground when the speakers themselves reside on points or platforms. Springs put at stop to any exit plan.
Dave I cannot answer your inquiry at this time. You could always send me your number or the versa. Tom
theaudiotweak No its not solved because the generated shear energy has no way out. Where there is motion there is shear thru solid materials. Even when suspended. All forms of motion are eliminated?
Yes, it's solved! They already observed the gravity waves, you know the waves with amplitudes of around the diameter of an atomic neutron. Your whole shear energy thing is a scam, a red herring. There is no motion, everything is down to cryogenic temperatures and in a super vacuum. Hel-loo! Wake up and smell the coffee!
Fair enough Tom. Appreciate the input on the crossovers. I feel certain that a tune-up is in order after all these years and I might as well develop a solution for keeping them external.
BTW - I have the speakers placed on a Symposium Svelte platform right now. Don’t think it is a complete solution as they can rock a little on top of the carpet.
Can't go for a big lift as tweeter height is a big deal with the CS5i. Already had to build a podium underneath my listening loveseat to get my ears up to the mandatory 36" height.
"...only completed to ground when the speakers themselves reside on points or platforms. Springs put at stop to any exit plan."
sorry, you're confused. Seismic vibration isolation is a separate issue. Internal vibrations is handled by other means than spring devices. How many times have I said that? Too many to count, no doubt.
Speakers elevated on our points or platforms have an increase in image height, width and specificity even when the tweeter is above the ear canal. Dispersion is increased..You don't have less you have more. The image is almost like two overlapping spheres that allow you to see images as a whole or as a singular event within the performance ...you pick 16 by 9 performance on a wall to wall screen. These devices remove interfering energy from the drivers and the cabinet. In another life I worked for a Thiel dealer..we were the only dealer in the state where they were located. A heavy dense cabinet enclosure will store a lot of energy and has a long memory of the previous note that tried to come thru it. Tom
No, it means nothing. I think part of the take home message from Ethan is that proper engineering (particularly when it comes to room acoustics and things measurable) is more important than gucci equipment. I myself have experience that very thing. I have had better sound in my sound room with Bestbuy gear than gucci audiophile grade in a standard room. You cannot trump physics. Now, back to the matter of how modulation of vibration effects all things electrical....anyone?
Springs add another boundary layer and introduce more interfering energy. The motion artifacts of the springs and resulting inertia when driven by the voice coil of a speaker need to be overcome by the voice coil. If you suspend all speakers from either above or below you have the same retention of interfering energy. And so is your sound. Tom
Theaudiotweak Springs add another boundary layer and introduce more interfering energy. The motion artifacts of the springs and resulting inertia when driven by the voice coil of a speaker need to be overcome by the voice coil. If you suspend all speakers from either above or below you have the same retention of interfering energy. And so is your sound.
Boy, are you confused. The isolation is achieved by the combination of mass and springs. That’s why LIGO uses many mass-on-spring devices. That’s exactly how they were able to achieve results. If there actually were ARTIFACTS they wouldn’t have been successful. Say, whatever happened to the Seismologist, you know, one that presumably knew what she was talking about? If she was smart she grabbed a hat a long time ago.
Eggs ackley! There’s the high end and then there’s everybody else. Talk amongst yourselves. Smoke if ya got em. Thus saith Mr. Kait whose current sonic reference is a Walkman....
Hey agear, biology joke: bacteria is the only culture some people have? Get it? 😁
One more: The only culture you got at UVa was through osmosis. 😀
Geoff, Those springs help develop and help retain shear wave interference. The fact that a moving coil sits atop a moving object (your perpetual motion machine at least in motion while you are trying to listen to music in accurate formation and time) I guess you could move your head in the opposite direction in hopes of keeping perfect time and speed ..kinda like a woodpecker..He's got it going....some Doppler distortion as well. Tom
"Geoff, Those springs help develop and help retain shear wave interference."
No they don’t. The combination of mass and springs attenuates the structural vibration, ALL structural vibration, whatever its source. Vibrations that reside on the top plate or anywhere in the device can be dealt with by any number of means, as well they should.
Then Theaudiotweak wrote, "The fact that a moving coil sits atop a moving object (your perpetual motion machine at least in motion while you are trying to listen to music in accurate formation and time) I guess you could move your head in the opposite direction in hopes of keeping perfect time and speed ..kinda like a woodpecker..He’s got it going....some Doppler distortion as well."
The motion of a spring based isolation device is minuscule compared to any motion of the voice coil or the speaker cabinet. You can therefore IGNORE the motion of the isolation device. In fact, there isn’t any motion you can detect visually, duh! The motion is damped by the inherent or intentional internal damping if the device. It’s probably, what, maybe a thousandth of an inch. Besides, the isolation device can only move with only ONE FREQUENCY - it’s resonant frequency. Hel-loo! There is not MORE distortion. There’s LESS. There’s less distortion because you’ve reduced the amount of seismic vibration getting up into the speaker or whatever. Of course for speakers the added BONUS is that the mechanical feedback of the speaker to the electronics and cables is reduced. You know, by decoupling them. Thus, LESS DISTORTION.
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