Diving into the world of tubes...help needed!

Ditch tone control. Ditch separates. Add Raven integrated to the list.

You'll get far more for your audio dollar with integrated vs separates. Prima Luna is European based made in China. Good luck with that.

Raven is all American and with outstanding rep for customer service. 

Hard to go wrong with tubes, especially not at this level where they all outshine SS right across the board. Adding tone control just might do it though....

@millercarbon I like tone control for a lot of 'correcting' of recordings so that they sound good to me.  I know many will disagree, but eh, it is what it is.

Nearly CAD$4000 for their cheapest integrated is a little much for me. Nothing wrong with made in China if it's quality! Which apparently both the PrimaLunas have.
Customer service would be nice though.

The nice thing about separates is that you can often place your amps near the speakers, keeping your speaker cables short. Tube amps are more sensitive to speaker cables; keeping them short helps out with resolution. If you decide you want more power/resolution/etc. its not that hard to change out a preamp or amp, as opposed to an integrated setup.

The other advantage of separates is each bit of the system does not share the same power supply (which reduces distortion) and crosstalk is simply going to be lower. 
I'm with millercarbon about tone controls. I think you'll find that once the system has proper resolution and a musical nature that tone controls are no longer needed. One thing about tone controls- their introduction into the circuit will **always** increase noise, decrease resolution and bandwidth, introduce coloration and distortion. That's a thing you can count on. The reason is that tone controls require an active circuit to make up for the gain that they otherwise consume. Additionally even when the controls are set flat they often aren't really flat unless they are switched like Harmon Kardon did on their Citation 1 preamp. If the tone controls can be switched out that is helpful, but I've serviced a lot of amps where that switch was actually the problem- due to corrosion of the contacts, even on a newer piece.

@atmasphere I see the advantages to separates.  Interesting that you point out about the speaker cable length.  Unfortunately I don't really have a room that would work in...maybe one day!
I understand what you're saying about tone controls, I hope that while auditioning I don't miss them and can eventually dismiss them.  But my current setup only sounds good when I use them.  Not that it sounds bad without them, but they bring so much life to the music.
The Loki tone control I'm considering does have a relay controlled bypass, so it is a true bypass.  At least it's got that going for it :)

Hello Atmasphere,
You make a compelling case for the advantages of separate audio components. Does one have to reach a certain price point for this advantage to manifest?

Some advocates of integrated amplifiers would say the signal path is shorter/simpler and that the preamplifier and power amplifier sections are ideally suited to each other (And an interconnect and power cable are eliminated). There are very reasonable arguments to be made for either approach.

I’m thoroughly happy with my tube separates based system but I could see someone making the case for example, a Gryphon or say a Virus integrated amplifier. Or saying that at the lower cost point the spectrum it’s difficult for  separates to compete on a value/performance basis. I would imagine that a number of audiophiles face this dilemma when shopping for audio components.
Charles

Some advocates of integrated amplifiers would say the signal path is shorter/simpler and that the preamplifier and power amplifier sections are ideally suited to each other (And an interconnect and power cable are eliminated). There are very reasonable arguments to be made for either approach.

Price is certainly an issue! And I agree that signal path is important. I make exactly the same point with our preamps- having the phono section built-in eliminates the connectivity issue that otherwise can introduce coloration.

One thing about separates is you have to pay for more chassis. The chassis and usually the power supply are the most expensive part of any preamp or amplifier so having separates and having them somehow be really inexpensive either isn't a thing, or a thing that might not be practical. We're seeing a lot of very inexpensive Chinese separates on the market right now; they look nice but unless properly vetted a lot of them have inferior parts which are problematic down the road.

If you simply don't have room or the budget integrated equipment makes a lot of sense. Like anything else (tube, solid state, class A, class D etc) execution plays a huge role.

FYI: PrimaLuna: i was thinking of buying one of their integrated amps and called them because my speakers have sensitivity of only 83db. A person answered the phone and they were very friendly and helpful.

@berner99 Glad to hear.  One thing that really draws me to the PrimaLuna is the bad tube indicators.  I still think I'll go with the Vincent in the end though.  The only way I can audition a PrimaLuna is to buy one and then if I don't like it a 5% restocking fee would be charged.

Take a look at Rogue, had Primaluna Dialogue HP iintegrated and their straight non HP integrated. Sold them and bought a Rogue HP-1 Pre and a Atlas Magnum I sent both of them to Nick at Rogue, had the amp upgraded to a Magnum II and the Pre they checked out thoroughly, gave it a bill of good health and frankly, I think the sound is superior.
Additionally Rogue does it all in the US and I found their customer service to be unmatched! Actually spectacular more covers it!

For a tube set-up I recommend separates vs integrated as some have suggested. Mcintosh amps drive the tubes easily and auto bias, so you gain longevity and the engineering is not as subject to tube rolling as much. That said, I found getting a tube pre-amp first and hook it up to a solid state pre-amp. You'd be surprised at the results. Also, tone controls are cool and useful. Get them. One last note that tube amps are heavy because of their output transformers especially as more watts are added. Depending on your space tube amps need their own space or rack because you can't stack the components due to their unorthodox shape. Good luck with your search. Tubes are cool. 

Look into the coincident technology amps — the Frankenstein MK 2 monoblocks are exceptional. If you are only running one source, look into a passive pre. they’re simpler, and simpler almost always sounds better. Cheaper than a decked out active pre.. Placette makes an excellent one.

Separates will sound better if you’ve picked the rest of your system carefully. Synergy is all. iwhat you hear from whatever you decide to buy will also depend on your cables and isolation and room acoustics and other components. There’s a reason they are called stereo SYSTEMs.

I'll double down on good luck with Chinese made stuff. They have zero quality control. 
The Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III is awesome! If you can afford $17k for a pre and $20k for a power amp, the Audio Research Ref 6SE and 160S are exquisite. If you are not in that market, stick with an integrated amp.

I second something from Rogue, I owned the RP5 pre and ST100 amp and with nos tubes they sound awesome. But what ever you buy and I was new to tubes also you have to go with nos tubes if you want that old sxhool tube sound imho

Love my prima luna prologue preamp with my carver crimson 275 and there is US support for prima luna. It is clearly a well made product. And Chinese made is a great way to save money. Fit and finish is perfect.

Thanks for your input everyone. I'll consider all of your suggestions as I continue my search :)

Check out Quicksilver Audio in California. Man they make some nice stuff.

I get what some of you are saying but if you’re going to Join the world of tubes (the world I live in) , you can’t go on the cheap.. you will be disappointed and leave it in your rear view mirror. To achieve quality music, I’m sorry to say you have to spend money.. there are killer deals on used gear out there if you have a certain budget you need to stick with.. unfortunately the more you can spend, the music gets so much better.. I originally started with 65k budget and more then doubled it by the time I finished.. 😂😂 shhhhhhhhhh, don’t  tell my wife! I’ll have to get her more sparkly things! 😛 now I just sit back and enjoy musical bliss in the evenings with her!! Just my 2 cents.. 

branden,  The Vincent integrated you are considering is a solid state amp.  I think the tubes are in the preamp stage of the integrated.  That's not a bad way to introduce tubes into your system, but if you want a tube amplifier you might want to try the Primaluna or the Carver that have been recommended.  These are very good tube integrateds or amps that are beginner friendly.

branden

You have $1500/pr. speakers to drive, so let's not get nuts here.  The Raven and Rogue suggestions are quite valid.  You can buy once and be very happy, or sneak up on it and upgrade too many times.  I also don't like cheap Chinese tube gear.  Too many corners cut to obtain price.

Tone controls in this price range are the death of good sound.  The Emotiva is of course all SS, so the tube talk, it's a bit confusing.  Are you going to be tube guy or not?  Best of luck and hopefully the opinions given are more helpful than confusing.

@tomcy6 I think, as others have suggested (maybe here, maybe another forum, can't remember LOL) that for my needs and budget, having a tube preamp and SS power amp is a good idea, whether it's integrated or not.  I've heard nothing but good things about the Vincent, and it's the only one that I can audition, so I'll see if it has that "magic" sound that I'm looking for.
@celtic66 As I've just said above to tomcy6, I'm more interested in the preamp having tubes, rather than the power amp.  I just can't afford separates, nor can I justify spending all that much if I could.  I think a CAD$10 000 system (turntable, pre&power, speakers) would be my maximum spend. My mistake about the Emotiva, I was tired while writing my original post, I shouldn't have put that one :)

@michaelg63 Ha ha! I can't ever imagine spending that much on audio, it's just...too much for me!  I think for the time being, a tube preamp and a SS power amp are the way for me.  Whether it's the vincent or the PL, or one of the others suggested here.

I believe Primaluma US distributor is right here in La Verne, CA 

upsacleaudio.com

i checked out the primaluna line there, but ended up going with Line Magnetic 805ia and I’m loving it. Both Chinese. Both have premium features like point to point wiring, and high quality attenuators etc.

I got the Line Magnetic at perfect pitch audio in palm desert, CA. Super service from them. 

veerossi

You did well with Line Magnetic.  Notice, I posted ‘cheap Chinese’ which excludes better quality such as your choice.....and not cheap.

@veerossi Great.  I'm In Canada, so honestly the only way for me to try PrimaLuna is to buy, and if I decide to go with something else, I'd have to pay 5% restock fee, which in my case is about $130.  I looked at Line Magnetic's stuff earlier today...not my cup of tea.
@celtic66 I understand what you're saying, but from nowhere I've heard that Vincent is a subpar build quality.  Sure it doesn't have point to point wiring, but it's also not a simple, straightforward tube amp.  It's a hybrid, with some extra toys

I own the PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Premium Integrated with the KT150 tubes.   I love this Integrated, particularly with the more powerful tubes.

It drives my XStatic full range electrostatic speakers really well and to loud levels.

May your ears enjoy the adventure!

Thanks noodlyarm!

Someone in another forum has basically convinced me to home audition both of my interests (which have now boiled down to the Vincent or the PL EVO 100 Integrated).  I've found a dealer for each, that are about an hour away...so if they'll let me take them both home I'd be very happy!  For one I may have to actually buy it and pay a restocking fee (5%) though.

I also agree with going rogue . Service from Nick is spot on and the quality is top notch . Glorious sound stage . 

@davekayc They seem nice, especially the Cronus III...but just too far out of my price range. It's about $4000 plus 13% tax where I live.

Speaking of bargain gear, my original series Schiit Freya preamp (there are two newer versions, one without tubes and a supposed improved version of the tubed one) sounds excellent, as does the Schiit Aegir amp I just bought out of curiosity (I generally use a Dennis Had tube amp...also relatively inexpensive)...total for those two was around 1,600 bucks, USA made, and the Aegir is by far the least expensive amp to make the Stereophile Class A recommended stuff list. Note the Aegir needs either efficient speakers (mine are rated at 99db) or use two in balanced mono. I agree with Atmasphere that tone controls are rarely needed if your rig is well sorted, but a Schiit Loki (too much Schiit? maybe...still another very inexpensive option) is by far the least harmful EQ I’ve ever used...utterly transparent (mine is always off until called into service), and useful here and there.

Wolf, I know you were thinking of purchasing the Pass XA25, as was I.  How do you like the Aegir and has it stopped you thinking about the Pass?

It's about time you decided to get into tubes, I bet you will be very glad.

Before tubes, speakers.

Speakers, properly matched in the listening space is by far the most important in any system. Speaker efficiency more important when using tube amplification (not a concern for tube pre-amp).

I understand liking/loving the Focal 906 for a bookshelf situation, like I love my B&W's in my office, but not for the primary music system. What is your listening environment? By the way, I added a powered sub to my B&W's in my office, add just a bit, only aware when you turn it off. Do you use a powered sub-woofer now? I'm not saying you have to have more bass, just want to know more about your goals.

Always consider speaker's efficiency, and speaker's impedance when selecting how much tube power you need.

Focal says efficiency 89db, that is my 'threshhold' for tube power.

This review measured 87db. (not a proven fact, just came up in a quick search, I don't know anything about your speakers or the reviewer), but, if true .........

" The Aria 906’s sensitivity measured 86.8dB/2.83V/m, which is typical for a speaker of this size and configuration. The impedance remains above 8 ohms from 700Hz to 20kHz, and dips to a low of 4 ohms at 200Hz, but never lower." Not a fact, just a quick 

It is said, +3db is needed to have a basic perceivable increase in volume. For any amp, double the power is needed for +3db sound level, so, -2db efficiency is more limiting than you might imagine.

To keep tube power requirements fairly low, i.e. 20-45 wpc  (whole lotta more choices, whole lotta money still in your pocket) I would want more efficient speakers, with more bass from them, or, a stereo pair of powered subwoofers, IF the space allows it. 

Ports: None, or front only like your Focals. Avoid side, rear, bottom ports, too much potential for difficult room interactions.

 

I have a Prima Luna and think its great.   It's a power amp so I can't comment on the pre amp part but you would do well with your own inexpensive pre and a power amp.  The power amps are inexpensive, depending on the model.  I bought a prologue 5 and it was cheap . 

Getting into tubes.

It is very important to define your system needs, think carefully about control options, both manual and remote. Inputs, future additions, ...

Bias Adjustment of Power Tubes: external, easy, safe, is a very desirable feature for tube amps, I wish I had it, I don't. 

I am just now learning about some modern control/input choices, I'm 71, tubes, LP, Reel to Reel, using old school McIntosh tube tuner/preamp mx110z into tube integrated amp, Cayin A88T. (I love the sound of the Cayin, but I may change for a few reasons).

Tone Controls/Balance. I agree with you, controls are important when needed, often just a bit improves a lot. Most important for me is balance, and much preferred is remote balance. I started a thread about remote balance

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/remote-balance-control-on-tube-integrated-amp

I don't use treble/bass much, but if I did as you describe, I would also prefer that remote controlled. Remote volume, and mute also.

One option, is to effectively have 2 systems, some equipment direct to tube amp, some equipment thru tone controls, then to tube amp. I use this Chase Remote Controller for a few components, it then goes to my tube integrated amp via it's AUX (any line level input).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHASE-TECNOLOGIES-RLC-1-REMOTE-LINE-CONTROLLER-Complete-In-Original-Box/123978156682?hash=item1cddac8a8a:g:0CsAAOSwUHld0Ht4 

It can also be used via a tape out/in loop

As it says, absolutely no noise, Cannot tell if it is in or not in the loop.

Some equipment has tone control bypass options, and some Integrated Amps have tone controls for a few inputs and also have 'preamp in' which skips the Integrated's tone controls.

Those features put you into a modern Integrated Amp. Some, like the Vincent you mentioned, are hybrids, only preamp is tubes, amp is Solid State. I would go tube power as well as tube preamp.

I highly recommend McIntosh Mode Control IF it fits in your setup

stereo/stereo reverse/mono/l to r/r to l/l+r to l/l+r to r. ...

I use this to get my speakers matched. They have presence and brilliance controls, and need to be carefully and properly adjusted. Cassandra Wilson; Richard Burton; No More Tears Duet with Barbra Streisand and Donna Summers help. I find test records are best for TT refinement of Anti-Skating l/r balance.

Above done, if the balance is off a speck, it's the source, and a small tweak can be a magic improvement, not just a 'fix'.

My Cayin A88T was designed in Germany, made in China, point to point wiring. Designed to sound like a McIntosh 275.

Used, off warranty. The reviews gave me confidence. It's price very compelling. No regrets, it sounds terrific.

I took the bottom off, it is incredibly impressive, exceptional build quality, and, the layout allows space for any technician to repair if needed.

Unfortunately, to get 16 ohm taps, I had to get the version with internal bias controls. OP's existing speakers use 8 ohm taps, so finding external bias control should be easy.

Brandon, I don't know how sensitive your speakers are. If the PrimaLuna is powerful enough I'd be willing to bet it's a "keeper" if you try it. I run a PL Dialogue integrated and have owned many tube rigs over the decades. It is the best sounding and easy to use tube amp I've ever owned. BTW, build quality is superb, supervised in China by the dutch engineer-designer. Service through Upscale Audio is very accessible (if you ever need service). Good luck and have fun.

@wolf_garcia Wolf, glad to hear about the Schiit gear.  I'll take a look into the products you mentioned
@eliottbnewcombjr Wow, thank you for your lengthy advice!  I'm no familiar with a lot of the technical measurements that are involved with speakers.  I do not use a subwoofer now.  Say I upgraded to the 936s before I chose an amp.  Could the PL EVO 100 (40wpc) drive such a load well?
As far as remote control goes, I can take it or leave it. I've never had it, I rarely if ever use the remote on my CD player. I just get up and do whatever needs doing :)
Thay Cayin looks nice, may be another one for me to consider.  Although the hybrid approach is attractive to me...power tubes are $$$

@tuberist I don't know much when it comes to speaker sensitivity.  If I were to upgrade to the 936, Focal's site says their sensitivity is 92dB, with recommended amp from 50-300W. Maybe the PL isn't a good choice if I go with those speakers...but as others have said, I should upgrade speakers first.

Brandon, I was somewhat in your shoes 15 years ago. I decided to leap into tubes as well. I elected to keep my ss amp(an Adcom 555ii and added a tube PreAmp. I chose a used Audible Illusions line stage. Wow! What a difference!  I enjoyed the AI for ~10 years then added a tube amp, a Conrad-Johnson Premier 11a. It was an improvement, but not as much as the preamp. I think the preamp is where you get the ‘tube’ sound! There are a lot of used tube preamps on the market. People have mentioned several. I admit I’m partial to Audible Illusions, it’s an old brand, but with a good rep.

Hey jetter...yeah, the Aegir has tempered my desire for an XA25 for now anyway. The Aegir (I've had it for only a couple of days after having to send the first one back...input sensitivity issues...Schiit payed for all the shipping of course and could not have been nicer) is the most astonishing SS amp I've heard in my or anybody else's system. It's a great sounding late night "low volume" amp, and it has a mesmerizing sound that seems to dig deep into whatever you're listening to at any volume. For what they sell these things for it was very hard to resist trying the thing and man...what an amp...

@rongold Glad to hear about your experience! :)  I think as people have said, I should upgrade speakers first, THEN find an amp. I guess I'll do that...