DeVore O/93 or PureAudioProject Duet15 for a First Watt SIT-3?

Just voicing my opinion. Believe it or not, the post you first commented on was listed to help, but evidently it served as a trigger. Take some time and find your safe place.

@audition__audio so you’re saying you’re especially difficult with Devore owners? 

Only you and a few others have pointed out my posts as interpersonally challenged. And, surprise, these were all DeVore owners. Put criticism of the components you own in the proper perspective. Your speakers are not your children, hell they arent even your dog.

@fsonicsmith I lucked out. Dealer said he had an abandoned order that I could have. I didn’t even know they had been released until he auditioned one for me.
 

Linlai WE300B are the included tubes. It sounds like all 100 of the first run of the 300b amp have been sold. There is a rumor Devore might make another 10. The next series will be 845 monos but not totally sure.  The Komuro amp website has a production plan posted. 

@markimiller 

How long did it take you to get the Komuro and which 300B tubes is John supplying the amp with? Did you ask about his upcoming amps and how he describe the differences in each amp? And one last question-did you have it shipped or did you go visit the Monkeyhaus?

@audition__audio telling people what they do and do not like in their interactions with them is the opposite of passive-aggressive. Opinions and how they are shared are different things. I think you’re tired of it because you haven’t learned how to interact and aren’t particularly interested in doing so. Blaming others for all of your interpersonal difficulties should be a non-starter. 

So what tone and attitude would you suggest? Dont tell me you appreciate the information and then voice your displeasure at the delivery. So tired of this passive-aggressive nonsense. Simply admit that you dont appreciate my opinion because it runs counter to yours and leave it at that. 

O/baby has better midrange and a rel sub

the O/93 is sucky at bass too anyway compared to O/96 that has better mids as well.

@audition__audio I appreciate your input. The Komuro was built for the O96 model and variants. It’s delivered with the higher ohm taps installed and it’s tuned for the O96. It was surprising how much command the 8 watts has over these speakers.

So while I’m sure it’s fun and satisfying to make universal proclamations about what amps will work or what the speakers are capable of based on your own anecdotal experience, I don’t find those proclamations helpful or inherently true partly because of the tone and attitude with which they are delivered. Anyway, I appreciate the sharing and I will try to extract what wisdom I can from it.

No matter how efficient the speaker, there will will always be the struggle between high power authority and being king of your domain, versus low power beauty and finesse. Go with the 96 (end game) versus 93 (more affordable) if you can. Try high and low power amps and pick of get the best in one price class and have fun!

We spent a great deal of time listening to the O/96s with single and parallel 300B SET amps and these did not have nearly enough power. The speakers opened up with about 30 watts plus and decided that the best sound came from a pair of 60W OTL monos.

I am convinced that the lower wattage went into a very soft clip quickly that actually made the sound a bit larger than normal. The sound thickened. So I (we) felt that actually the lower powered amps gave some perhaps more of what they liked but this certainly did not do justice to the source. So in my experience, the worst amp for these speakers were push pull designs followed by the lowered power single ended. The speakers were best served by a more neutral tube amp of higher power that wasnt a push pull type. 

Hours of direct comparison were needed to really sort this out. Most of this was done on the O/96s and some on the O/93s. The only components changed were the amplifiers. These sessions were extremely valuable and really elevated our listening acumen. Of course it also ruined about 10 songs due to overexposure.

With these speakers, the only type of single ended design I would consider would be an 845 or 211 type. There is no denying the quality of single ended midrange, but I tend to like these amps when paired  with a less "meaty" sounding speaker. Perhaps too much of a good thing.

@lemonhaze i picked up the Komuro 8w upon auditioning in store with their O96 Bronzes. Whatever shortfalls the Devores have, this amp minimizes them. Heard the Komuro after listening to Nagra classic amp and pre, and it made the Nagras  sound lean and harsh by comparison. 

I reread your original post and I think you are proceeding on an erroneous assumption. First I hate it when people say that one speaker is better with a certain genre of music than another. This makes absolutely no sense. Other than output levels, the best rock speaker will be the best jazz speaker. I also think that your choice of amp will have more influence than the type of speaker on low level listening. Tube amps have better low level resolution and are more linear. Of course assuming a speaker that is relatively tube friendly which your Avalons are not. 

My speakers are named in the opening message. Are Avalon Indras, a top speakers perfect for 89db listening, less for 69db night. 

This reference to speakers built in Brooklyn sounds suspiciously like Ohm Acoustics...and I find it somewhat startling that there could be two speaker manufacturers in Brooklyn. That said, I have never heard or heard of the ones referred to in this thread. And @ulul that looks like a pretty nice listening room and I didnt quite get what your speakers are but they look similar in design to some of the offerings from Legacy Audio. Would be interested to hear more about them and how they perform.

I had to look them up.  Apparently "nothing brings you closer to the music".

I've owned the O/93 and heard the O/96 on many occasions. I agree with fsonicsmith get the 96 if you can. I've heard the same things, one being that the woofer is substantially better designed and compromises had to be made for the 93. Hard to get a woofer to play deep and still play mids well. Both great speakers. 

I continue to believe, btw, that if you can afford the 96's, get them. I believe that as I said before, they will sound better at low volumes than the 93's. The price differential is surprisingly high given that they share the identical tweeter and nearly identical woofer and the guy behind Box Furniture Co. in the same Brooklyn pier warehouse as Devore that builds his cabinets can not be charging that much more for the bigger box. The x-over is said to be more "sophisticated", whatever that means, in the '96. I would love to ask John Devore what accounts for the price difference. I am sure he would say what I already said though-the woofer, cross-over, and cabinet. 

For the money, I would get the O/93s. I think they are more cohesive and balanced. I noticed little to no difference in efficiency.

This is exactly what Don Better told me the one and only time I came to visit him up in Cleveland to audition the O/93's. He did not have the O/96's available to compare and he knew that I was primarily interested in the 93's. I paid for them that day and received them directly from Brooklyn a week later. It appears he lost his Devore dealership rights. 

At Axpona one year I went back and forth between a room with the O/96's and a room with the O/93's, no less than four times each. I liked the 96's a lot more than the 93's even though they sounded less cohesive-they were far more engaging. They were set up quite differently-the 96's along the long wall with nearfield seating and the 93's along the short wall with seating further back. 

For the money, I would get the O/93s. I think they are more cohesive and balanced. I noticed little to no difference in efficiency.

Fred, thanks for the comment. No problems on my end.

The dilemma now is between the O/93 and the O/96 (apart from cost). Which ones are more suitable for nighttime low listening?

The O/96's. But only by a slight margin. The names are derived from their respective claimed sensitivities though JA measured slightly lower figures. The O/96 has a higher performance woofer (more powerful magnet assembly). Over and above, the O/96 has a looser, more lively sound and the 0/93 is slightly buttoned-up by comparison. The O/96's are a bit more picky with room placement. 

Friends, I feel like we've gone a little off topic....
In the end I would have decided not to get an OB but to replace the Indras with the Orangutans. 
The dilemma now is between the O/93 and the O/96 (apart from cost). Which ones are more suitable for nighttime low listening?

@audition__audio 

Peace brother. I have been something of an ass and you have reacted like a gentleman. I apologize and will not say a negative word to you or about you if I can possibly help it. 

No dynamic speaker can reproduce transients like a capable horn system. If they could this would be the most significant reason to abandon horns altogether. In fact it is the far superior dynamic/transient capabilities of horn based speakers that prevent me from completely writing them off. 

The audio get togethers started before I became a dealer. In fact all the product that we carry is product that my partner and I owned previously or had vast exposure to. 

Suggesting the superiority of first order crossovers is nothing new, nor is the concept of time alignment. Most speakers I have owned over the years have been first order and I strongly prefer sealed enclosures although Atohm is ported.

Every dealer need an entry level turntable line. Rega has been wonderful to work with and fills this segment nicely. My personal table is the top of the line Merrill Williams with a Triplanar. I think M.W. now has a composite platter which I should investigate. 

@avanti1960 

I appreciate your comment. Mine likely have 50-75 hours. I thought they sounded best with the OEM cheap standard-issue spikes rather than with the Gaia footers I later tried and kept installed but I have beautiful/expensive walnut hardwood floors. The Gaia's allow me to move the Spendors into position so much easier and without worry for the flooring.

I don't think another two hundred hours is going to be transformative. I feel I have a pretty good grasp of their overall sound signature. They resemble a freshly ironed crisp white dress shirt to use a wardrobe metaphor. They lack corporal presence. I like to use the old chestnut The Arc Choir on Mapleshade to test for this quality. A loudspeaker that can recreate the church choir in real space with a sense of real, life sized diorama spread across the room is no easy feat. The D7.2's fail miserably. At least in my room with my gear (listed and shown in my profile) they don't hold a candle to the Devores. 

Brian Walsh (TTsetup.com) has been over five times and has heard both sets of speakers in my  listening room. He once made the unsolicited comment that the Spendors' sound is inferior (far inferior) to the Devores. So for whatever that is worth, I am not alone on this issue. How can one define for others what is boring and what is not? Rhetorical question. 

They resolutely track lightening fast transient rhythms literally better and with more refinement than horn speakers.  

OK. Now I have to take issue. "Literally"? I think you must mean "absolutely". Regardless of how you mean to use the word "literally" combined with "resolutely track", there is no way on God's Green Earth that I will accept that the Spendor D7.2's reproduce transients the way a Volti Rival will. You have added "refinement" into the mix. Some reviewers use "refinement" to mean inner detail and others use that word to mean "sophistication" and others use it to mean overall cohesiveness so I will not respond as to that. 

@fsonicsmith 

I have had the Spendor D7.2 for almost three years and the D7 before the.  They are simply not a boring speaker- at all.  They resolutely track lightening fast transient rhythms literally better and with more refinement than horn speakers.  

I suspect you did not allow them the long break in hours they need to open up (200 plus hours) or may have supporting system issues. 

The review of the D7 in Stererophile is accurate.   

@ulul 

Each speaker (PAP / O/93) needs space around them and are about equal in placement difficulty.  

The PAPs like ~ 4 feet from the wall to front baffle- not that you have to but so that you can hear the spaciousness of the sound stage projected from the rear of the open baffle, which sounds excellent. 

The DeVores need space because they (IMHO) have lots of cabinet resonance warmth that can become overwhelming if located too close to any surface.    

Hi Jim. It is apparent from your Agon marketplace feedback that you started out selling only tubes through Feb of 2012 and then disappeared for four years before selling audio gear other than tubes (mostly Analysis Plus cables) in March of 2016 and since 2020 you have been selling the limited lines you carry. But you don't need me to tell you this. 

You do carry Atohm loudspeakers and they are narrow baffle and I bet they have first order crossover networks. I just (I swear!) looked them up and yep, Atohm touts their use of first order crossovers. So you did recommend a rather small segment of loudspeaker design philosophy that you happen to carry. Why cite to friends of yours and audio group get-togethers when you could have just said, "I am an audio dealer and here is my opinion...."?

I also find it contradictory that you criticize Harbeth and Devore for being "colored" when Rega turntables, which you carry and sell, have a rather unique sound of their own and can not be called "neutral" as conventionally understood. Those of us into vinyl know that Rega's generally run 1% fast by design and have a lively, speedy, quick sound to them that is a bit lean and midrange and bass shy. 

And last, your recent comment that Harbeth and Devore feature cheap components and construction is laughable. In the case of Devore, SEAS drivers are hardly cheap. Devores are also bespoke and built in Brooklyn, rather than being mass produced as so many modern loudspeakers are. The same applies to Harbeth. I don't own Harbeth and don't own O/96's so to say that the crux of the problem is my ownership is inherently false, at least in part. The crux of my problem with your comments is that I have heard wide front baffle loudspeakers from the likes of Audio Note, Volti, and Devore provide incredibly pleasing (the most pleasing) sound in difficult show conditions. 

I would be happy to list my system but am not spending hours trying to figure this out on Agon.

Yes I am a dealer. Should be obvious by my name. Also should be noted in my profile and if not then my mistake. I dont proof my posts so errors in spelling are possible. Show me in any of my posts where I suggest you buy a product I sell as an alternative to items being discussed. 

The crux of our problem exists simply because I spoke negatively about a product you own and like. 

@fsonicsmith   Wow!  Dealer has just been outed.  Scandalous indeed.  This must be the tribe of big secrets.

I can't tell if you are being sincere or sarcastic but no worries either way. No scandal. IIRC, there is not set policy here on this Board about disclosing industry affiliation but most times, those in the industry make it very clear on a volunteer basis. It's a matter of inherent truthfulness or lack of same. I did not see a single post by Mr. Sautter making his business interest clear. Granted, his user names does not make it difficult to discover. I am aware I am back and forth about this guy. Same with his posts-I agree with much of what he has to say and disagree with much of the rest. So it goes. Maybe he belongs to the Tribe of Contradictions. Contra-Tribe for short. 

@fsonicsmith   Wow!  Dealer has just been outed.  Scandalous indeed.  This must be the tribe of big secrets.

I am guessing your main tribe is this https://auditionaudio.net/

If I am correct, why have you not identified yourself in your profile as being in the industry Mr. Jim Sautter?

Different tribes I guess

What is your preoccupation with "tribes"? Just how do you define "tribe". I see from reviewing your past posts that you use the term often such as here;

Somehow I doubt that. If this were true you should mention your experiment, give some details and say you heard no difference. All this other stuff is tribal. You go way past giving your opinion, ridicule others that dont share your opinion so that you are on record so you can find other like minded individuals which gives you comfort.

I am happy to give you a list of all the cables that I have used in the past 5 years. I can give you a list of power conditioners but I dont use these as any gains were offset by diminishments. Please share your experiences. Instead of smug remarks add something to this thread of substance.

Or you can just admit you dont buy into any of this at the theorectical level and be done with it. If you havent tried a bunch of cables no problem but dont get upset if some on this forum think this puts you in no position to comment.

So again why do you care?

And I notice too that you can not spell "judgment" (you add an "e" like an eighth grader) or "stance" ("stanch", really, are you using Siri when you post?) and you demonstrate a repeated dislike at every opportunity for Devore and Harbeth. And you refer to "friends" and "friend's systems" rather incessantly. You also have a pissy and contentious demeanor. 

For such an opinionated bloke (tribe member of unknown origin), why not post your virtual system for our much needed edification? 

All of you raise legitimate points in favor of the Orang. line of speakers. Of course it is really juvenile to get upset at a fellow enthusiast who doesnt share your opinions. What is ridiculous in calling into question the motives behind the criticism. Fred stepped out of line questioning the existence of these "friends" for which he sort of apologized. Lemon you are completely out of line suggesting that I have any agenda other than to voice my opinion about a speaker sound which I do not like. You all can find many posts regarding brands like Harbeth and similar I have posted in the past.  It is perfectly acceptable, in polite society, to voice your opinion as some have done, but then others resort to personal attacks over something so trivial. Different tribes I guess.

I own a pair of DeVore O/93’s and can strongly recommend them. I’ve yet to hear the “what they got wrong” part of them… However, you rarely see them on the used market and there are plenty of reasons for that. As for the, “narrow baffles, more inert cabinet construction” speaker, there’s nothing wrong with that design either. With that said, you can always take your pick of the litter, because there are plenty of them out there on the used market to grab. Good luck and have fun. 

  I have a virtually unused pair of Spendor D7.2's with IsoAcoustic footers for anyone interested. Original owner, boxes. They do nothing wrong. They are boring. 

I do hear the little midrange discontinuity/woody-notch in the O/93's but it does not phase me. But I often find myself attracted to women with slightly beaked noses. Character. 

I own a pair of DeVore O/93’s and can strongly recommend them. I’ve yet to hear the “what they got wrong” part of them… However, you rarely see them on the used market and there are plenty of reasons for that. As for the, “narrow baffles, more inert cabinet construction” speaker, there’s nothing wrong with that design either. With that said, you can always take your pick of the litter, because there are plenty of them out there on the used market to grab. Good luck and have fun. 

Have a look at Coherent Audio from Ontario Canada.  I have the 15s paired with a 45 Tube Amp and a 20 watt Class A amp.  Both with very good results.

Are PAPs more difficult to place in the room than DeVores?

@ulul 

Ze'ev of Pure  Audio Project used a Pass Class A integrated (The INT25) with the Duet 15 to excellent effect.  I think the extra watts (up to 80 at 4 ohms) were used well by the PAP speakers.  

I have no reservations with recommending the Duet 15 and the Pass Labs XA25.  Superb sound.  

And for classical? 

+1 jond

i heard the PAP at CAF in 2 rooms. I expected the downstairs room with VPI to be amazing but unfortunately it was one of the few rooms i really disliked. 
 

I had a pair of Spatial X5s OBs for a couple of years and largely enjoyed them which is probably why I had the expectations that I had; however to me the PAPs sounded very thin listening to rock. Maybe it was the show and maybe listening to Jazz might have been totally different; maybe it was just me. Others appeared to be enjoying. 
Id certainly recommend listening yourself first.

...strongly considering a pair of Volti Rival SE's..

@fsonicsmith 

I have the Volti Rival.  At 100db, I plan to start my tube amp journey with flea watt amps. Greg confirmed 2 watt SETs are fine.  

@ulul 

Since the PAP is a more neutral choice, you may want to consider the Volti Razz.  Very efficient, open, fast, dynamic.  A clear window to the warmth of your amplifier.  Many positive reviews.  I heard them a few times at major audio shows.

They are much less offensive than other speakers on poor recordings. This too is not a positive attribute. I think that this is the main reason we all preferred the more linear sound of OTLs on these speakers.

One of the S'Phile reviewers recently said something worthy of quoting-"If you have to play only great recordings for your system to sound great, it's time to change your system" (or something very close). While I am glad to see you now say that these are your opinions and not fact, your initial post and even the bold-faced sentence come across as statements of fact. 

In this case "musical" translates to colored. All you need do is compare this series of speaker with other types of designs to hear exactly what they portray that is not in the original signal. Not to say that this type of sound doesnt have its place and certainly its fans, but if you judge a speaker by how well it recreates the original signal these are a failure on numerous fronts.

You touched, purposefully or unwittingly, on a subject of much legitimate debate. Classical music fans love to argue that an optimum loudspeaker should be capable of recreating the sound they hear in their favorite row and seat in their favorite music hall but in the real world no transducer or speaker system known to mankind can do that and the very "model/conceit" goes flying out the window when the music was created and preserved for future playback in a studio. 

And then comes the unfortunate truth that speakers with perfectly flat and extended frequency response and dispersion characteristics can (and often do) sound boring. You are giving up your spare time to relax and enjoy, not examine and study as if in a laboratory hunched down over a microscope. Look at it this way-why do headphones which are capable of perfectly flat frequency response, no room interaction, and no cross-overs still implement some variation of the Harmon Curve? The answer, in case you don't know, is that they better enable the BRAIN to perceive a recreation of the real event and they sound better. 

And finally comes the reality (my version of reality?) that every audio system is an amalgamation of compromises from source to transducers. My point is simple; lighten up, relax, and have fun. Does your system make you wish you were young again and wailing on the guitar in front of a crowd? Does it make you want to get up and dance? The O/96's do that, better than my O/93's. I am currently strongly considering a pair of Volti Rival SE's. Talk about having fun, it is Greg Roberts' motto!

Can we maybe just say we all like what we like? Some folks like narrow baffle speakers, some like wide and some like open baffles? It’s preference and not a contest folks!

And @ulul I find sensitive speakers in general to be good for lower level listening. I run Audio Note AN-J’s in an admittedly small room and rarely get above 70dbs using 3.5 watt 2a3 monoblocks.

I’ve heard and liked DeVore 0/96s in a friends system and their reference system at CAF. I’ve only heard PAP speakers at CAF and didn’t love them but take that with a grain of salt audio shows being what they are.

I heard the DeVore 0/96 speakers driven by an 8W 300B amp sounding great. I spent most of my time at the audio show listening to these finding them fun and entertaining. Certainly these can't be accused of 'got completely wrong'

Someone here with an agenda?

Your room appears to need some acoustic treatment.

I have the pure audio project duets only 3ft out from fr wall, they are great. Sidewall reflections less of problem also. I had Spatial Audio OB before this, like a gateway to OB. But Pure A P a cut above.

The position seems strange, but it is the result of a year of micro-movements of the speakers. If I increase the distance between them you can hear the music coming from one speaker, whereas this way there is more perspective fusion.
In the past I also had a MiniDSP, but then when I did the acoustic analysis it turned out that the Indra's performance is very linear and there are no holes or emphasis, so I removed the MiniDSP... 

Well going from what look to be Avalons to DeVores will certainly be an awakening. Completely different DNA. You have a problem with the placement of your speakers. They are far too close to each other. If you could bring them further into the room and put a greater distance between them this would help a great deal. Great looking room just not particularly audio friendly at this point. Something to consider is spending some time and a bit of money on the acoustics before changing speakers or any component. Room treatments are easy to make and there also exist a great many premade items. 

The room

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kbz1r12bfxa544r/IMG_2047.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lj3539yjmyhakhay5wimd/IMG_2050.JPG?rlkey=v0hlg0nssyz1mgzbj54mnegwv&dl=0