DeVore O/93 or PureAudioProject Duet15 for a First Watt SIT-3?

Very different sounding speakers. question do you have the room behind your speakers to accommodate Open Baffles?  OB’s need a good amount of space behind to properly integrate the back and front wave, usually 4’-8'.   

I’ve heard the 0/93’s and they can be very nice indeed. But after going to an OB recently I don’t think I could go back to a box. If you have the room I would give the Pure Audio Project speakers a listen.  

OB’s done well can be very good, if not large. The 0/93’s will integrate easier and fit more room sizes but interact more with the side walls than OB’s do. Where the OB’s will have a smaller sweet spot than the 0/93’s. Mind you the OB’s should have a larger, deeper sound stage than the box speaker. Trade off both ways but for me not hearing the box was the turning point in my journey.

The room is 19‘x12’ and 16' high (part is 8' hight).
There are bookshelves, a big sofa, an armchair and a carpet on wood floor.
Speakers have 5‘-6’ behind.
The listening armchair is 8‘ from the speakers (behind me I have 10’ to the back wall).

For me it is really important to have a warm sound, a wide and deep stage even at low volume.
The Avalon Indra are great, but they sound best at medium-high volume.

I have went through everything you are considering, in the end I went with Volti Audio, talking to Nelson Pass, tons of emails I went with the Sit-4 and I am so glad I did…what ever speaker you get consider the Sit-4. I have been using it since July this year and it really warmed up my system without losing any detail…one good thing about the Pass gear it’s solid and never a problem…it]f this tells you anything I sold all my tube gear and tubes…the Sit-4 is 10 watts of Class A that drives these Volti Horn speakers to a beautiful sound…

I have 2 friends which owned both the O/93 and O/96 DeVores. They replaced them both with speakers which conform more to the current standards of design. First order crossovers, narrow baffles, more inert cabinet construction, etc. It didnt take them long after getting the new speakers to discern exactly how much these DeVores actually missed or got completely wrong. 

+1Glennewdick

I own the SiT3 and Caladan open baffle speakers. This is a wonderful pairing with all the sonic attributes you look for, as long as the room is big enough. I bought the Caladan’s for a 14x15x8 listening room. With room treatments, a near field listening position and multiple amp/preamp combos they sound good but not great. I don’t want near field.   In my larger room 28x20x8 at 5-6 feet from the back and side walls the OB’s are magical. I already have Volti Rivals in the big room, which are also magical, so now I have a first world dilemma.

I have 2 friends which owned both the O/93 and O/96 DeVores. They replaced them both with speakers which conform more to the current standards of design. First order crossovers, narrow baffles, more inert cabinet construction, etc. It didnt take them long after getting the new speakers to discern exactly how much these DeVores actually missed or got completely wrong. 

Before I get to the heart of your post, let's get something straight; it is "DeVORE Fidelity" if referring to the company and John Devore if referring to the person, but there is no "DeVore". But that is a minor thing. 

As to the gist of your post, I happen to own both Devore O/93's and narrow baffle speakers with inert cabinets. "Current standards of design"? Who's standard are you referring to? My O/93's in my room and in my system far-outshine my other set of loudspeakers. No contest. They run circles around them. The other set are Spendor D7.2's which admittedly don't have, to my knowledge, first order crossovers. 

What sets the O/93's apart is more than truth to tone and timbre-those large baffles project a certain sense of physicality and body that are completely missing in the narrow baffled speakers. 

It all boils down to the non-debatable truth that all loudspeaker designs, regardless of price, present compromises. No one loudspeaker can do everything. There is a certain "blemished midrange" with the O/93's that can be heard at times and they are not imaging/soundstage champions. But they are imminently satisfying to those of us who listen for certain things. 

When so many widely respected reviewers have Devore O/93's or 96's and when so few appear on the used market, that has to tell you something. 

And last, for now, there are advantages to high sensitivity easy-load loudspeakers and wide baffled loudspeakers are much more suited to those design characteristics. 

Nope, one more thing. Any post that starts with "I have a friend" or "I have two friends" should immediately alert the rest of us that some disinformation/confusion/distortion is about to follow. 

@ulul 18 Watts (or 30 into 4 Ohms) isn't a great deal of power. From the looks of the distortion curve vs power, if you want the most out of this amp it really should be loafing. I think it will sound fine with any of the speakers you mention, but that won't be the same as sounding its best.

It seems this amp flies in the face of most amps by having actually lower distortion into 4 Ohms, while still having a good harmonic spectrum of the distortion.

The trick is that speakers are measured using 2.83 Volts at 1 meter. So if its a 4 Ohm load, to make 2.83V Volts the amp is making 2 Watts. So a speaker that is 95 dB and 8 Ohms is 3dB more efficient than one that is 95dB and 4 Ohms. For that reason you are looking for a speaker that might be 100 to 103dB and also 4 Ohms, which strikes me as a bit unusual.

In an average room I found with speakers of 97dB that I needed a lot more power than I would have guessed, so as to keep things relaxed at normal listening levels. Good luck with the quest!

Fred,

I thought you were dead!  Sorry but not going to bite. 

I thought you were dead!  Sorry but not going to bite. 

First you post something that is indefensible, and then when I respond you accuse ME of trolling? I think it is safe to say that you can not respond with anything substantive and that it was me who should not have risen to the bait. 

Since I own the O/93 and I has something to say about them, my post was anything but a troll. 

And yes, Fred is dead, but KICK OUT THE JAMS MOTHER ________!

That is the power of telling the truth. You dont care if anyone believes you.

Short of giving you names and addresses how could I prove that I am being honest?

I think you should post proof that you own 0/93s. A copy of the receipt will do.

This is going downhill. I am sorry if my reference to your two friends upset you-that was not necessary on my part. But my point was that you have not owned or apparently listened to the speakers at issue. As to proof of my ownership, just go to my profile. You do know how to do that don't you? 

It is the fashion these days to get upset over the tiniest thing. Sorry that DeVore speakers appear to be a trigger. But your basic premise is wrong and you simply didnt like my comments on a speaker which you adore. Pretty silly. 

I have spent over 100 hours listening to the 0/96s and at least 50 on the 0/93s. Both of these speakers were the mains in 2 houses in which we would hold monthly listening sessions. Each month we would bring a different component, cables, etc.

My take away was that the 0/93s were certainly a better value than the 0/96s and sounded more balanced.

On these speakers we used some less expensive solid state (First Watt most recent production, Parasound, Aragon), P.P. tube amps (VAC and older Zesto), SET (mainly 300B Audio Note both single and parallel) and OTLs. Universally the OTLs were preferred. I am convinced that the 0/96 is not a 96db efficient speaker. 

My point is you could not possibly know if I have listened to the DeVores. Had I gushed all over them you would not have questioned my legitimacy or motive. Therein lies the (your) problem.

these DeVores actually missed or got completely wrong. 

This is incorrect, if so, why so much praise, so many sales, and few resales. This is simply that it didn’t meet a specific person’s preferences.

After demoing many speakers at major audio shows and showrooms, the O/96 are one of the most “musical” speakers. Very surprised to hear of purchasing dissatisfaction after bringing them home, would expect the buyer to know what type of sonic this particular speaker offers. If they were expecting end-to-end linear neutrality, they didn’t do their homework.

So no, these speakers weren’t “wrong”, but rather it’s the insufficient method in which these speakers were chosen.

Not at all. In this case "musical" translates to colored. All you need do is compare this series of speaker with other types of designs to hear exactly what they portray that is not in the original signal. Not to say that this type of sound doesnt have its place and certainly its fans, but if you judge a speaker by how well it recreates the original signal these are a failure on numerous fronts.

What I object to with this series is exactly the appeal to others. This extra body, the thickness and over reaching with a tendency to make Janis Joplin sound like Janis Ian. Designs that pay homage to the speaker designs of the past and dont expose bad recordings. They are much less offensive than other speakers on poor recordings. This too is not a positive attribute. I think that this is the main reason we all preferred the more linear sound of OTLs on these speakers.

The first of the speakers purchased were the 0/96s because this friend wanted a "warm" design which was tube friendly. After discussing several speakers which I thought displayed this attribute, he purchased the DeVores. He was very happy as was the other friend who bought the 0/93 blind based on the 0/96 performance. Both lived happily until I brought over a pair of speakers in the price range of the 0/96s. 

The appeal of the O series is obvious and not without merit. They simply arent a transducer to my taste. That how all this started was me stating an opinion. Do I really need to start playing the game of prefacing everything I say with an "IMO" or similar? To my ears they got many things completely wrong. 

In favor of these speakers. The former owner of the 0/96s when he plays very loud or plays bad recordings misses the speakers. Both pairs sold quickly and at very good prices. All of us miss the looks of the speakers. Support from the company was superb and construction quality was excellent.

So take this as a story  of evolution. After experiencing fine examples of differing speaker designs, my friends choose a direction different from you and the Fred. 

The room

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kbz1r12bfxa544r/IMG_2047.JPG?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lj3539yjmyhakhay5wimd/IMG_2050.JPG?rlkey=v0hlg0nssyz1mgzbj54mnegwv&dl=0

Well going from what look to be Avalons to DeVores will certainly be an awakening. Completely different DNA. You have a problem with the placement of your speakers. They are far too close to each other. If you could bring them further into the room and put a greater distance between them this would help a great deal. Great looking room just not particularly audio friendly at this point. Something to consider is spending some time and a bit of money on the acoustics before changing speakers or any component. Room treatments are easy to make and there also exist a great many premade items. 

The position seems strange, but it is the result of a year of micro-movements of the speakers. If I increase the distance between them you can hear the music coming from one speaker, whereas this way there is more perspective fusion.
In the past I also had a MiniDSP, but then when I did the acoustic analysis it turned out that the Indra's performance is very linear and there are no holes or emphasis, so I removed the MiniDSP... 

I have the pure audio project duets only 3ft out from fr wall, they are great. Sidewall reflections less of problem also. I had Spatial Audio OB before this, like a gateway to OB. But Pure A P a cut above.

I heard the DeVore 0/96 speakers driven by an 8W 300B amp sounding great. I spent most of my time at the audio show listening to these finding them fun and entertaining. Certainly these can't be accused of 'got completely wrong'

Someone here with an agenda?

Your room appears to need some acoustic treatment.

Can we maybe just say we all like what we like? Some folks like narrow baffle speakers, some like wide and some like open baffles? It’s preference and not a contest folks!

And @ulul I find sensitive speakers in general to be good for lower level listening. I run Audio Note AN-J’s in an admittedly small room and rarely get above 70dbs using 3.5 watt 2a3 monoblocks.

I’ve heard and liked DeVore 0/96s in a friends system and their reference system at CAF. I’ve only heard PAP speakers at CAF and didn’t love them but take that with a grain of salt audio shows being what they are.

They are much less offensive than other speakers on poor recordings. This too is not a positive attribute. I think that this is the main reason we all preferred the more linear sound of OTLs on these speakers.

One of the S'Phile reviewers recently said something worthy of quoting-"If you have to play only great recordings for your system to sound great, it's time to change your system" (or something very close). While I am glad to see you now say that these are your opinions and not fact, your initial post and even the bold-faced sentence come across as statements of fact. 

In this case "musical" translates to colored. All you need do is compare this series of speaker with other types of designs to hear exactly what they portray that is not in the original signal. Not to say that this type of sound doesnt have its place and certainly its fans, but if you judge a speaker by how well it recreates the original signal these are a failure on numerous fronts.

You touched, purposefully or unwittingly, on a subject of much legitimate debate. Classical music fans love to argue that an optimum loudspeaker should be capable of recreating the sound they hear in their favorite row and seat in their favorite music hall but in the real world no transducer or speaker system known to mankind can do that and the very "model/conceit" goes flying out the window when the music was created and preserved for future playback in a studio. 

And then comes the unfortunate truth that speakers with perfectly flat and extended frequency response and dispersion characteristics can (and often do) sound boring. You are giving up your spare time to relax and enjoy, not examine and study as if in a laboratory hunched down over a microscope. Look at it this way-why do headphones which are capable of perfectly flat frequency response, no room interaction, and no cross-overs still implement some variation of the Harmon Curve? The answer, in case you don't know, is that they better enable the BRAIN to perceive a recreation of the real event and they sound better. 

And finally comes the reality (my version of reality?) that every audio system is an amalgamation of compromises from source to transducers. My point is simple; lighten up, relax, and have fun. Does your system make you wish you were young again and wailing on the guitar in front of a crowd? Does it make you want to get up and dance? The O/96's do that, better than my O/93's. I am currently strongly considering a pair of Volti Rival SE's. Talk about having fun, it is Greg Roberts' motto!

...strongly considering a pair of Volti Rival SE's..

@fsonicsmith 

I have the Volti Rival.  At 100db, I plan to start my tube amp journey with flea watt amps. Greg confirmed 2 watt SETs are fine.  

@ulul 

Since the PAP is a more neutral choice, you may want to consider the Volti Razz.  Very efficient, open, fast, dynamic.  A clear window to the warmth of your amplifier.  Many positive reviews.  I heard them a few times at major audio shows.

+1 jond

i heard the PAP at CAF in 2 rooms. I expected the downstairs room with VPI to be amazing but unfortunately it was one of the few rooms i really disliked. 
 

I had a pair of Spatial X5s OBs for a couple of years and largely enjoyed them which is probably why I had the expectations that I had; however to me the PAPs sounded very thin listening to rock. Maybe it was the show and maybe listening to Jazz might have been totally different; maybe it was just me. Others appeared to be enjoying. 
Id certainly recommend listening yourself first.

And for classical? 

@ulul 

Ze'ev of Pure  Audio Project used a Pass Class A integrated (The INT25) with the Duet 15 to excellent effect.  I think the extra watts (up to 80 at 4 ohms) were used well by the PAP speakers.  

I have no reservations with recommending the Duet 15 and the Pass Labs XA25.  Superb sound.  

Are PAPs more difficult to place in the room than DeVores?

Have a look at Coherent Audio from Ontario Canada.  I have the 15s paired with a 45 Tube Amp and a 20 watt Class A amp.  Both with very good results.

I own a pair of DeVore O/93’s and can strongly recommend them. I’ve yet to hear the “what they got wrong” part of them… However, you rarely see them on the used market and there are plenty of reasons for that. As for the, “narrow baffles, more inert cabinet construction” speaker, there’s nothing wrong with that design either. With that said, you can always take your pick of the litter, because there are plenty of them out there on the used market to grab. Good luck and have fun. 

I own a pair of DeVore O/93’s and can strongly recommend them. I’ve yet to hear the “what they got wrong” part of them… However, you rarely see them on the used market and there are plenty of reasons for that. As for the, “narrow baffles, more inert cabinet construction” speaker, there’s nothing wrong with that design either. With that said, you can always take your pick of the litter, because there are plenty of them out there on the used market to grab. Good luck and have fun. 

  I have a virtually unused pair of Spendor D7.2's with IsoAcoustic footers for anyone interested. Original owner, boxes. They do nothing wrong. They are boring. 

I do hear the little midrange discontinuity/woody-notch in the O/93's but it does not phase me. But I often find myself attracted to women with slightly beaked noses. Character. 

All of you raise legitimate points in favor of the Orang. line of speakers. Of course it is really juvenile to get upset at a fellow enthusiast who doesnt share your opinions. What is ridiculous in calling into question the motives behind the criticism. Fred stepped out of line questioning the existence of these "friends" for which he sort of apologized. Lemon you are completely out of line suggesting that I have any agenda other than to voice my opinion about a speaker sound which I do not like. You all can find many posts regarding brands like Harbeth and similar I have posted in the past.  It is perfectly acceptable, in polite society, to voice your opinion as some have done, but then others resort to personal attacks over something so trivial. Different tribes I guess.

Different tribes I guess

What is your preoccupation with "tribes"? Just how do you define "tribe". I see from reviewing your past posts that you use the term often such as here;

Somehow I doubt that. If this were true you should mention your experiment, give some details and say you heard no difference. All this other stuff is tribal. You go way past giving your opinion, ridicule others that dont share your opinion so that you are on record so you can find other like minded individuals which gives you comfort.

I am happy to give you a list of all the cables that I have used in the past 5 years. I can give you a list of power conditioners but I dont use these as any gains were offset by diminishments. Please share your experiences. Instead of smug remarks add something to this thread of substance.

Or you can just admit you dont buy into any of this at the theorectical level and be done with it. If you havent tried a bunch of cables no problem but dont get upset if some on this forum think this puts you in no position to comment.

So again why do you care?

And I notice too that you can not spell "judgment" (you add an "e" like an eighth grader) or "stance" ("stanch", really, are you using Siri when you post?) and you demonstrate a repeated dislike at every opportunity for Devore and Harbeth. And you refer to "friends" and "friend's systems" rather incessantly. You also have a pissy and contentious demeanor. 

For such an opinionated bloke (tribe member of unknown origin), why not post your virtual system for our much needed edification? 

I am guessing your main tribe is this https://auditionaudio.net/

If I am correct, why have you not identified yourself in your profile as being in the industry Mr. Jim Sautter?

@fsonicsmith   Wow!  Dealer has just been outed.  Scandalous indeed.  This must be the tribe of big secrets.

@fsonicsmith   Wow!  Dealer has just been outed.  Scandalous indeed.  This must be the tribe of big secrets.

I can't tell if you are being sincere or sarcastic but no worries either way. No scandal. IIRC, there is not set policy here on this Board about disclosing industry affiliation but most times, those in the industry make it very clear on a volunteer basis. It's a matter of inherent truthfulness or lack of same. I did not see a single post by Mr. Sautter making his business interest clear. Granted, his user names does not make it difficult to discover. I am aware I am back and forth about this guy. Same with his posts-I agree with much of what he has to say and disagree with much of the rest. So it goes. Maybe he belongs to the Tribe of Contradictions. Contra-Tribe for short. 

Yes I am a dealer. Should be obvious by my name. Also should be noted in my profile and if not then my mistake. I dont proof my posts so errors in spelling are possible. Show me in any of my posts where I suggest you buy a product I sell as an alternative to items being discussed. 

The crux of our problem exists simply because I spoke negatively about a product you own and like. 

I would be happy to list my system but am not spending hours trying to figure this out on Agon.

Hi Jim. It is apparent from your Agon marketplace feedback that you started out selling only tubes through Feb of 2012 and then disappeared for four years before selling audio gear other than tubes (mostly Analysis Plus cables) in March of 2016 and since 2020 you have been selling the limited lines you carry. But you don't need me to tell you this. 

You do carry Atohm loudspeakers and they are narrow baffle and I bet they have first order crossover networks. I just (I swear!) looked them up and yep, Atohm touts their use of first order crossovers. So you did recommend a rather small segment of loudspeaker design philosophy that you happen to carry. Why cite to friends of yours and audio group get-togethers when you could have just said, "I am an audio dealer and here is my opinion...."?

I also find it contradictory that you criticize Harbeth and Devore for being "colored" when Rega turntables, which you carry and sell, have a rather unique sound of their own and can not be called "neutral" as conventionally understood. Those of us into vinyl know that Rega's generally run 1% fast by design and have a lively, speedy, quick sound to them that is a bit lean and midrange and bass shy. 

And last, your recent comment that Harbeth and Devore feature cheap components and construction is laughable. In the case of Devore, SEAS drivers are hardly cheap. Devores are also bespoke and built in Brooklyn, rather than being mass produced as so many modern loudspeakers are. The same applies to Harbeth. I don't own Harbeth and don't own O/96's so to say that the crux of the problem is my ownership is inherently false, at least in part. The crux of my problem with your comments is that I have heard wide front baffle loudspeakers from the likes of Audio Note, Volti, and Devore provide incredibly pleasing (the most pleasing) sound in difficult show conditions. 

@ulul 

Each speaker (PAP / O/93) needs space around them and are about equal in placement difficulty.  

The PAPs like ~ 4 feet from the wall to front baffle- not that you have to but so that you can hear the spaciousness of the sound stage projected from the rear of the open baffle, which sounds excellent. 

The DeVores need space because they (IMHO) have lots of cabinet resonance warmth that can become overwhelming if located too close to any surface.    

@fsonicsmith 

I have had the Spendor D7.2 for almost three years and the D7 before the.  They are simply not a boring speaker- at all.  They resolutely track lightening fast transient rhythms literally better and with more refinement than horn speakers.  

I suspect you did not allow them the long break in hours they need to open up (200 plus hours) or may have supporting system issues. 

The review of the D7 in Stererophile is accurate.   

@avanti1960 

I appreciate your comment. Mine likely have 50-75 hours. I thought they sounded best with the OEM cheap standard-issue spikes rather than with the Gaia footers I later tried and kept installed but I have beautiful/expensive walnut hardwood floors. The Gaia's allow me to move the Spendors into position so much easier and without worry for the flooring.

I don't think another two hundred hours is going to be transformative. I feel I have a pretty good grasp of their overall sound signature. They resemble a freshly ironed crisp white dress shirt to use a wardrobe metaphor. They lack corporal presence. I like to use the old chestnut The Arc Choir on Mapleshade to test for this quality. A loudspeaker that can recreate the church choir in real space with a sense of real, life sized diorama spread across the room is no easy feat. The D7.2's fail miserably. At least in my room with my gear (listed and shown in my profile) they don't hold a candle to the Devores. 

Brian Walsh (TTsetup.com) has been over five times and has heard both sets of speakers in my  listening room. He once made the unsolicited comment that the Spendors' sound is inferior (far inferior) to the Devores. So for whatever that is worth, I am not alone on this issue. How can one define for others what is boring and what is not? Rhetorical question. 

They resolutely track lightening fast transient rhythms literally better and with more refinement than horn speakers.  

OK. Now I have to take issue. "Literally"? I think you must mean "absolutely". Regardless of how you mean to use the word "literally" combined with "resolutely track", there is no way on God's Green Earth that I will accept that the Spendor D7.2's reproduce transients the way a Volti Rival will. You have added "refinement" into the mix. Some reviewers use "refinement" to mean inner detail and others use that word to mean "sophistication" and others use it to mean overall cohesiveness so I will not respond as to that. 

No dynamic speaker can reproduce transients like a capable horn system. If they could this would be the most significant reason to abandon horns altogether. In fact it is the far superior dynamic/transient capabilities of horn based speakers that prevent me from completely writing them off. 

The audio get togethers started before I became a dealer. In fact all the product that we carry is product that my partner and I owned previously or had vast exposure to. 

Suggesting the superiority of first order crossovers is nothing new, nor is the concept of time alignment. Most speakers I have owned over the years have been first order and I strongly prefer sealed enclosures although Atohm is ported.

Every dealer need an entry level turntable line. Rega has been wonderful to work with and fills this segment nicely. My personal table is the top of the line Merrill Williams with a Triplanar. I think M.W. now has a composite platter which I should investigate. 

@audition__audio 

Peace brother. I have been something of an ass and you have reacted like a gentleman. I apologize and will not say a negative word to you or about you if I can possibly help it. 

Friends, I feel like we've gone a little off topic....
In the end I would have decided not to get an OB but to replace the Indras with the Orangutans. 
The dilemma now is between the O/93 and the O/96 (apart from cost). Which ones are more suitable for nighttime low listening?

The dilemma now is between the O/93 and the O/96 (apart from cost). Which ones are more suitable for nighttime low listening?

The O/96's. But only by a slight margin. The names are derived from their respective claimed sensitivities though JA measured slightly lower figures. The O/96 has a higher performance woofer (more powerful magnet assembly). Over and above, the O/96 has a looser, more lively sound and the 0/93 is slightly buttoned-up by comparison. The O/96's are a bit more picky with room placement. 

For the money, I would get the O/93s. I think they are more cohesive and balanced. I noticed little to no difference in efficiency.

Fred, thanks for the comment. No problems on my end.

For the money, I would get the O/93s. I think they are more cohesive and balanced. I noticed little to no difference in efficiency.

This is exactly what Don Better told me the one and only time I came to visit him up in Cleveland to audition the O/93's. He did not have the O/96's available to compare and he knew that I was primarily interested in the 93's. I paid for them that day and received them directly from Brooklyn a week later. It appears he lost his Devore dealership rights. 

At Axpona one year I went back and forth between a room with the O/96's and a room with the O/93's, no less than four times each. I liked the 96's a lot more than the 93's even though they sounded less cohesive-they were far more engaging. They were set up quite differently-the 96's along the long wall with nearfield seating and the 93's along the short wall with seating further back. 

I continue to believe, btw, that if you can afford the 96's, get them. I believe that as I said before, they will sound better at low volumes than the 93's. The price differential is surprisingly high given that they share the identical tweeter and nearly identical woofer and the guy behind Box Furniture Co. in the same Brooklyn pier warehouse as Devore that builds his cabinets can not be charging that much more for the bigger box. The x-over is said to be more "sophisticated", whatever that means, in the '96. I would love to ask John Devore what accounts for the price difference. I am sure he would say what I already said though-the woofer, cross-over, and cabinet.