Dedicated 20 amp circuit - Electrician laughed!
"The Laws Of Electricity"!!!!! Ohm's Law is a guide. Nothing more. For what "Usually" will work, NEVER "ALWAY" will ANY of it work. ...sounds like jollygreen is straddling both sides of the tree depending on which side best suits his attempts to justify his opinion. Wow, Just ..."wow"!! |
I know several people who not only put in dedicated lines, but also, put in a dedicated main panel for the audio system. A local dealer did the same for his demonstration rooms. Still, when a noise meter was plugged into the line, it showed that there was quite a bit noise on the line. When a good power conditioner was then plugged into the line and the meter was inserted to read the output of the power conditioner, there was a dramatic lowering of the noise on the line. This suggests that power conditioning does more, and it is a lot cheaper. |
jollygreenaudiophile2 "The Laws Of Electricity"!!!!!Ohm’s Law is a guide for whom ... electrons? It is in fact a valid, proven law, right? To be fair, there are "non-Ohmic" conductors, but they don’t render the law invalid, afaik. |
"IF", That last .001 of an inch of the copper conductor entering your equipment has it's circumference shielded, filtered, drained or in a few other ways modified. Then it WILL indeed, "Modify" the magnetic field of said given area. Dependent upon "HOW" that field is modified WILL then give you a resultant difference in sound. It is an electrical system people. This is basic physics and Classic Electrodynamics, "for the most part". And some particle physics and a little field theory. Plus Quantum mechanics which then leads us into the realm of relativistic field theory. But, NOT the "Fuel line" on a 53 Buick! Just how did some of you guys accept the use of the microwave oven when it was first introduced? Oh, You hid behind the tree and peeked out until it was proven safe to use by that little girl and her mother. And not just bad, evil, "Magic" made by the "Witch 'o the North"?......... It's this new thing. We call it "Science". Get used to it. OR, Get out of the way. Go back and hide behind that tree again. |
I agree with the electrician. If your amplifier and other equipment is built with well-designed power supplies, noise on the power line will be filtered far below audibility. Furthermore, optimizing the last few feet of wire and connections from your service panel to your listening room will do nothing to affect the tens or hundreds of miles of transmission and distribution lines from the power station to your house. If you can hear artifacts due to power line noise, blame your gear for poor PSRR, not the wire between your outlet and the service panel. |
Wow, Just....wow. Ok, I don't really have the time to explain ALL of this. But to the "OP". Um, get a different "Electrician" please. And maybe call the local authority office electrical licensing board. So they may have a "Talk" with him. :"That will be either a county or city specific office that has jurisdiction". Many times what many call an "Electrician", is not one in actuality. And many whom are licensed simply passed a "Code Test". And the quality of the knowledge base standards actually varies widely throughout the country. I found that almost all electricians on the whole do not understand the theories that guide what we write into the code. The NEC is basically a Scope and a glossary with three other sections. Those three are simply- "Plan, Build, Use" and written in that order. No one explains AC theory, OR, DC Theory. It's not needed at that level. They also believe that, "Ohm's Law"? Is an actual set of what they see as, "The Laws Of Electricity"!!!!! Ohm's Law is a guide. Nothing more. For what "Usually" will work, NEVER "ALWAY" will ANY of it work. Any of you fellows doubt me? I can tell at least a few here are working electricians. If your non-union call your professor from your "A" upgrade college classes and ask. IF union? Call the hall and ask. I am known at "Local 26" IBEW Washington D.C. and NOT hard to find. And it's nothing against any of you. You just never "really", studied the "Theory". "Yes I know "A" upgrade gets two years, One for AC, One for DC. theory plus "Abstract Algebra", IE,, "Boolean Algebra". It doesn't count guys. Anyway . Isolated grounding.....It works "IF" you achieve a "True Earth" ground with movement en masse. That's about the easiest way for me to unpack it. Dedicated circuits, They are great! Especially when you de-rate the copper and use "STRANDED" copper. Not solid. "I don't know why but "Siemen's" does". They talked me into it. and like everything else in this hobby? Yes, It will effect a difference in the sound of a rig given that it is indeed "Sensitive" enough to appreciate the change. And the "Room, furniture, windows and etcetera"? It becomes part of the "Rig". It all counts. |
In the old days there were 3 main ground sources that could be available in residential construction. I is not uncommon to use more than one should any source go open. 1. electrical panel ground which is most likely a metal cold water pipe comming from the street side of the meter with a strap around the meter. 2. a ground rod driven to the proper depth, also based on the moisture content of the soil at that point. 3. attach the ground with proper ground clamp to a metal electrical conduit if grounded, on the outside of the home |
I would ask if a 20amp dedicated circuit is enough? What is the total current draw of all your devices? How about a quality, properly sized U.P.S.? The correct U.P.S. will provide protection from Spikes, Sags in voltage, and filtering there by providing you "clean" power to any device you plug in. In the normal mode most U.P.S.s would be running off battery and the line power will be charging the batteries. One other thing to remember is "ground is ground the whole world round" |
How much power do you need from the mains to justify a 20 amp circuit ? That would be equivalent to approximately 2200 Watts. Will you have that much power consumption ? Unless you are coming VERY close to that number above, you will NOT hear any difference. The only advantage would be eliminating any possible ground loops if you plug every device you have into this one circuit. But then again, unless you really require that much power, you could gain the same advantage from just a standard 15 amp mains plug. Extra power never hurts but will obviously cost. |
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My dad is a mathmatician and an electrician and a jack if all trades. He taught me to work on cars. When I was in college I told him that I put 120lbs of air in my bicycle tires. He laughed at me. He said a car tire doesn't take more than 35lbs. I knew what I had just done had worked...so I said it was pressure, not volume. I think most electricians see the rating on a gauge of wire and think capacity...but not resistance. I just put a dedicated line. Luckily I had an open minded electrician. It made a small but noticable difference in every area: bass, focus, clarity. |
In my new home I first tried a sub panel with a whole house surge protector, dedicated 20 amp circuit, 12 gauge wire and Furutech receptacles, which definitely helped but got me nowhere near the black backgrounds, voltage stability and dynamics I had in a private recording studio I built years ago. So I did what I did in that long-gone studio and ran a dedicated 240v circuit with 6 gauge wire feeding an Equitech balanced power system sized for my system. 5kw in this case vs. the 7.5kw I had in the studio. I’m a very happy camper once again. If you choose to go down this path, do your own research on whether you can meet code for a “technical” balanced power installation. There is a white paper on the Equitech website. You might also talk to the guys at Vintage King about balanced power. They supply many studios with both new and classic gear. Just my 2 cents... |
I’ve done isolated/home-run dedicated circuits for high power pro installs. Makes all the sense in the world, when the peak draw might and does easily hit/peak at 2500-4000 watts per run line. (eg, double 18" JBL bins per bridged amp, etc). Keeps noise down, and keeps the transients clean. A house system that really cooks... and is set up so the bands passing though get the best acoustics and the best electrics they’ve ever dealt with. Gotta keep the beer fridges, lighting, etc, on separate lines.... and a on a separate panel, if at all possible. And always advised show runners to have an electrician come in and check the connectivity quality of all the lines to be used in all the rooms that are slated to have gear demo’d in them. Reset all breakers, re-set all screw connections for the given power for each line, grounds re-seated as well. Some of those lines/grounds have not been serviced in a decade or more. (depending on the given hotel) This make a huge difference, overall, for the given audio show. People notice noise, but they don’t notice the absence of noise, so it’s difficult to quantify, for the average Joe. Except to note that the given audio show seems to have gone well. and bring incandescent bulbs to the show and replace the led and ccfl bulbs in the given room you demo in. the resistive filaments in the incandescent bulbs will lower/dissipate peak HF line noise and help stabilize the specific line in use. a great secret weapon, that most won’t even ’get’. Eyeballs/brains/minds are also a lot happier (unconsciously so) with incandescent bulbs in play. This is quality audio created by the cumulative inch, where it adds up to feet of quality increase, when you do it right. |
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Let's face it, there are people who can't hear as well as others can. And there's a fair amount of training of the ears as far as the audiophile journey goes. I'd compare it to the way an artist experiences the art of others as opposed to some poor slob looking at a pretty picture. Those people laugh and even ridicule sometimes. Who cares! Sometimes I don't know whether to feel sorry for them or envy them. But I like this hobby, and listening to and enjoying my system and my attempts to improve it make me happy. I'm in the process of putting in an independent ground to my system. I can't tell you how much improvement it will make as yet, but I'm looking forward to finding out. (Putting in a dedicated circuit isn't an option at this point.) Good luck. |
I actually have experience with this! Had a very nice large A.B.B. control system installed at a storm water station and any little thing would send it into alarm. What we did not know was if you have anything on the circuit with capacitors or high on off frequency you will get ringing in the circuit and cause frequency distortion. Turns out hospitals, inspection terminals and microwaves will do this. So, with all that said the electrician is wrong and their is a gain to having a clean, dedicated circuit for you system. |
Hi From Denmark I have worked in the industrial segment as a engenier for 13 years and as a electrician before that for 12 years. My English is poor though, so..... My advice is to keep it at simple as possible. I do not know your rules in the US but here in Denmark we can have a seperated Ground pole for the HiFi if it is placed at least 40 feet from the other Ground pole and that i can not physically reach between the two potentials. We Are also bound by law to have a house surge protector. That beeing said My main consern is noice and emc and how to build your system up to get rid of this. 1: Sepperate Ground pole with Ground wire to the main board for HiFi. 2: Sepperate Circuit for hifi with propper connections in the main board 3: Sepperate shielded cable with gound wire, All wires is 10 gauge or better from your HiFi Circuit to your receptacle. Connect the Ground wire from the cable and shield to the GROUND wire from the pole in the main board. BUT MAKE SHURE THAT THE SHIELD WIRE IS SORTER THAN THE GROUND WIRE FROM THE CABLE. 4: your receptacle must be placed in a metal or aluminium box. The shield from the cable is connected to the emc connector wich is connected to the metal box. The metal box MUST NOT be connected to the Ground wire from the cable, it is Isolated from the box and is only connected to the Ground in the receptacle. If you have multipel receptacles you must connect one Ground, hot wire and neutral wire for each, a star configuration. 5: receptacles should be with good connections. 6: You can connect a Ground bar on the box metal chassis so that you can connect extra Ground wires from your equipment, but only if it is approved by the manufacturer. This is to dismiss noice and magnetic fields from chassis. Your Ground and shield from the cable are only connected in the main board. Your box with the receptacles now works as a shield against WiFi, static electricity, and other noice. NOICE "RUNS" THE SHORTEST PATH NOT IN THE WIRE WITH THE BIGGEST GAUGE. This is a good start and I Hope you can understand☺️ |
I installed my own dedicated 20 amp line. I had a really long run, my listening room is on the opposite end of the house from the breaker. I found a good deal on cryo treated Romex(think it was only $75 or so.) The wire, a new breaker and a Synergistic Research outlet for $100. So for less than $200 and an hour's worth of work, well worth it. People saying it makes no difference have no idea what they are talking about. Even if all it does is take all of the noise generating items out of the loop, it is worth it. On the non dedicated line right next to it, you can watch the voltage swing from 112-117 very regularly. The dedicated line sits at 119-120 usually and is much more stable. |
As a person who worked his way through college by working out of IBEW 175, and whose Dad was it's one time president, I must state that anyone who runs a separate ground rod from his dedicated circuit is asking for a charge of negligent homicide to be added to his resume. This is dangerous, totally against all electrical codes, and totally ignorant of how A/C electricity works. Ask you local building inspector for a permit for this, and he will visit your property regularly, forever. |
@crosby9 " Pretty much. Every service requires a grounding electrode. You can add a second one but it must be connected to the first one by a wire. At the end of the day, within a single electrical service, all of your ground wires and all of your neutrals are connected to the same ground at the service" Thank you. I have long thought it a little crazy to have a separate ground on the dedicated line. |
Luckily. I have an electrical background as it was my major at my vocational high school I attended, and so I have no fear with most DIY electrical work. What prompted me to install a dedicated 20 amp circuit for my system was the lousy 15 amp existing circuit available in my living room. This circuit ran everything in the room of course, the tv, fans, plugged in table lamps, etc....everytime I’d play my system rather loud, I’d notice the lights dimming noticeably while plugged into the existing 15 amp circuit. This to me was annoying and unacceptable. So I gathered all necessary supplies (12 gauge romex, a handi-box, audioquest NRG copper receptacle, and a new 20 amp circuit breaker) and I got to work! It took me about 4 hours time to complete (about a 40 foot run, due to proximity of panel to room), but well worth the effort and the cost savings of doing it myself. I can say that there are no more dimming lights, and I can honestly say that I noticed that the system seems quieter, a darker back ground so to speak. I added to this by utilizing an audioquest niagara 1200 power conditioner as well as AQ thunder power cord for amp, and the NRG X-3 cords for sources. To me it was all a worthy cause, and actually a fun project. One thing to add about the AQ NRG receptacle is that it grips the power cord prong like a gorilla...you need to be Hercules to remove the plug now...unlike the cheap ass receptacles that are loose.... |
I ran a quad shielded 10 wire directly to the panel on a 20 amp circuit. I installed another grounding rod attached to the original grounding rod, about 5 feet apart. I used an AQ plug in the wall that has a very tight connection. The voltage drop is less than 5 percent at the plug. Throughout the rest of my old ranch house, I have endeavored to rewire with quality parts, such as a $5 dollar plug vs a 79 cent plug. If I could start with a clean slate in a new house, I would be careful to select the best parts available. There are panels that have thicker copper bus bars. I would say that the more robust your electrical system is, the likelihood of better performance with whatever you're plugging into it is ensured. When I ran the dedicated circuit for the main system, I believe that things got quieter. I do have things plugged into a Furman Elite 20PFI, mostly for protection from spikes. If you don't want to run a dedicated circuit, then I would at least install a quality plug and tighten up connections at the panel. Electrical systems require maintenance just like anything else. I am seeing million dollar homes getting built in my neighborhood as older homes get torn down. These homes likely have the cheapest parts installed that is required to meet code. When the "amazing" builder gets estimates from three electrical contractors, he doesn't select the best man for the job, he selects the cheapest. Modern electrical systems are designed to last about 10 years. |
Millercarbon. Multiple ground rods must be installed close to each other and be daisy-chained. Different soil consists will produce different ground potentials. This can have very bad implications... Problem is that many different locales have very different grounding capabilities. Sometimes ground rods are welded end to end to reach down far enough to reach moisture that will provide a good ground. Corrosion enters into the issue. My double ground rods are driven 4” apart close to a roof downspout to insure a “good” ground. Even so, there is an extension of our drip system that provides constant moisture for a stable ground. |
So... the electrode that goes into the ground must be connected to.... the electrode that goes into the ground. Pretty much. Every service requires a grounding electrode. You can add a second one but it must be connected to the first one by a wire. At the end of the day, within a single electrical service, all of your ground wires and all of your neutrals are connected to the same ground at the service. |
A separate grounding electrode is legal per NEC 250.54 Well that's a relief. but ultimately the separate electrode must be connected to the ground of the main service per NEC 250.4 (A)(5). So... the electrode that goes into the ground must be connected to.... the electrode that goes into the ground. I must admit it sounds a whole lot more official with a bunch of letters and numbers but in plain English: 2 ground rods connected together. Right? |
Now, I'm getting confused. Nearly every post on a dedicated breaker that I can remember has cautioned that a separate ground rod is a code violation? What gives?A separate grounding electrode is legal per NEC 250.54 but ultimately the separate electrode must be connected to the ground of the main service per NEC 250.4 (A)(5). An isolated ground receptacle basically means that the ground terminal on the receptacle is isolated from its yoke. In theory if you install an isolated ground receptacle and run the ground wire back to the breaker box, the ground wire will be isolated from the other ground wires and metal boxes on that circuit - up to a point. Ultimately, every ground wire terminates at the same bus bar. Additionally, every single neutral wire is also eventually connected to the same ground back at the service. With that in mind, the only way for your audio system to be truly "isolated" from everything else in your home is to install a separate service. That being said, having a dedicated circuit for your rig, as well as utilizing isolated ground receptacles, and paying mind to which circuits are connected to which phase in your breaker box can go a long way towards reducing unwanted noise, but it's not a cure-all or a magic bullet. ...take all of this with a grain of salt - I'm just a dumb electrician who builds amplifiers... |
This discussion is excellent. I have my basement gutted and need advice on wiring since this will be my listening room. I’ve investigated soundproofing thoroughly. But really don’t understand wiring the basement, what to tell the electrician, or where I should go to learn about it. I talked to one electrician about wiring with respect to an audio system. He looked at me blankly and had no idea what I was taking about. ”Running one normal dedicated line”: does that mean the wiring is from the circuit box to the outlet then directly to the audio equipment? You can see I’m a little lost here. Where should I go to learn the basics? Thank you in advance. |
A couple of times I have tried a transformer between my panel and my dedicated run to the stereo, using a Topaz 5 kVA, 0.0005pF model. I never really heard sonic improvements, frankly, and the thing did buzz nicely (was in a separate room!) and wasted a lot of energy in the form of heat. But they do kill any DC on the line. I took it out both times, and have found actual sonic improvements with the PS Audio P20 (P10's before that). |
I believe your electrician friend missed the point. When I ran my system on a shared house circuit the power drain was excessive and things would start to brown out. Especially around Xmas when the tree was up and all sorts of electric holiday decorations were lit. I ran my own dedicated 20 amp line to the stereo and and no more outside draw issues occured. Nothing sounded better but my power hungry all tube system was satisfied! I think its the smart thing to do, and very low cost, sans the cryogenic hospital grade quad outlets. |
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Mother earth’s ground connection (example ground rod/s) main purpose is for lightning protection. You can drive as many ground rods as you want as long as they are all tied together and one wire is extended and connected to the main electrical service neutral conductor. The NEC considers all the connected together ground rods as one grounding electrode. Again, The earth does not possess some magical mystical power that sucks nasties from an audio system. Grounding Myths From Henry W. Ott’s book "Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering" 3.1.7 Grounding Myths More myths exist relating to the field of grounding than any other area of electrical engineering. The more common of these are as follows: 1. The earth is a low-impedance path for ground current. False, the impedance of the earth is orders of magnitude greater than the impedance of a copper conductor. 2. The earth is an equipotential. False, this is clearly not true by the result of (1 above). 3. The impedance of a conductor is determined by its resistance. False, what happened to the concept of inductive reactance? 4. To operate with low noise, a circuit or system must be connected to an earth ground. False, because airplanes, satellites, cars and battery powered laptop computers all operate fine without a ground connection. As a mater of fact, an earth ground is more likely to be the cause of noise problem. More electronic system noise problems are resolved by removing (or isolating) a circuit from earth ground than by connecting it to earth ground. 5. To reduce noise, an electronic system should be connected to a separate “quiet ground” by using a separate, isolated ground rod. False, in addition to being untrue, this approach is dangerous and violates the requirements of the NEC (electrical code/rules). 6. An earth ground is unidirectional, with current only flowing into the ground. False, because current must flow in loops, any current that flows into the ground must also flow out of the ground somewhere else. 7. An isolated AC power receptacle is not grounded. False, the term “isolated” refers only to the method by which a receptacle is grounded, not if it is grounded. 8. A system designer can name ground conductors by the type of the current that they should carry (i.e., signal, power, lightning, digital, analog, quiet, noisy, etc.), and the electrons will comply and only flow in the appropriately designated conductors. Obviously false." Henry W. Ott . |
