Dealers hijacking the discussions

I submit all any of us can do is recognize "awesome" to our own ears! That doesn't mean that our "ears" are absolute in determining what is "awesome" for someone else. The more "we" as audiophiles get that there are no absolutes in audio, only preferences, the better off this hobby will be. We argue so much about what's good, bad, awesome, and the best! It's so silly in something as subjective as audio. I do submit it's great to talk about why we prefer one product over another.

This tread reminds we of when my kids used to bicker back and forth.   I sure do miss those days! :)

4: things as OP I want to comment on:
1. 75% of verbiage to my thread is from a dealer
2. Bill Parish of GTT is one of the best guys in audio and would never push his wares or opinions in these forums and i haven't bought anything from him since some Kharmas probably 15 years ago and I have no relationship w him at all
3. If Wilson has lost its way I missed it on my pair of Yvettes coming after some really good speakers. They are awesome and I humbly think that after 40 years experience in high end audio i can recognize awesome
4. If it's ok for one dealer to constantly attempt to mine buyers in the forums what if it were 10? or 20? 

Let's make it a habit of shutting down conversations that aim to tear others down!

And Dave a bit fewer words would REALLY be appreciated.

Mr_M, sorry to in your words bloviate, there are a lot of issues that have been raised which all need to be addressed and in fact all of these issues could be there own posts.

There are real shills here both dealer affliated and non affiliated

There was the concept of what constitutes a dealer.

There was also the discussion of motivativation for profit when many times there is none to be gained.

There was also the discussion of what consitutes hi-jacking vs suggestion of alternative product that might fit someone's needs possible better and for less money or the same money.

Yes I can see a lot of the points being raised on both sides some of which I agree with and some which I do not. 

If you are in our neck of the woods, and want to visit fine, the fact that you an audiophile would not want to visit our store based on a discussion I personaly find sad not for me but for you.

Personal feelings should not get in the way of wanting to check out someone's store or listen to a product. We treat our clients very well as evidenced by people who have actually been to our store. 

You don't know if for example I looked at your setup and said do x y or z and suddenly your system sounded dramatically better if you would be thrilled or you are colored by what you read let you make up your mind to the motivations of someone you have never personally talked with or visited their store.

I will give you one little example currently we are testing a $2,000.00 power cord with some unique technology that has made a gigantic difference in one of our setups, now if I make a post that says this and I sell this product do you now believe it or question the findings as our profit motive is what in your mind is driving the post, do you then want to check out the product sold by us as well as others for yourself or do you discount the findings based on your perecieved dialog of us.

In the end it is your decision, not mine, if you want to seek our council or not, check out our products or recommendations or not. 

When I am traveling I go to audio stores some of those stores have great reputations and their sound is good and sometimes it is not, I don't let my perceptions or preconceived notions alter my desire to visit their stores I visit them anyway all in the desire to see if I can find a better product then what I sell, and most of the time if I find it I move into that line.

Dave master troll and ruller of the evil empire
Audio Doctor NJ

Dave. Just look at the last few posts of yours. You just bloviate on, and on, and on......I love brick and mortar stores, and I have never been in yours. But just reading this thread alone, makes me want to stay away from your store. By the way, I don't need a dealer to help make my decisions (or a reviewer for that matter). I can  use you guys to give me a heads up on a piece of equipment, but ultimately I do my own research and in my ears, I trust.
Cheers,
Tim

I have no issue with dealers posting here as long as they identify themselves as such.  An opinion from a dealer will always be biased in the direction of his business...always.  Don't think I've ever gone into a BMW dealership and had a manager tell me that Lexus is a better car.

I would like to retort to a couple of you guys.

Frstly so sorry to appear to you to be a "shill" however when a person such as Ctstooner, mentions in nearly every thread how great Vandersteen’s are how come none of you questions if he is a "shill" is it because he doesn’t work for a dealer and I am sure there are plenty of others.

So how do you draw the fine line between a passionate enthiusist and a dealer who says the same thing? If you think the reason is that the enthusist doesn’t have anything to gain, I am willing to bet there are "enthusists" here who are friends with their dealers and are most likely promoting on their behalf and that is not to mention actual shills that hide and don’t say their affiliation.

As per salesperson vs sales professional, the difference is not what you think. A salesperson is the best buy order taker yep Sony is better, no Yahmaha, is better, they don’t educate, and they don’t suggest brands they don’t sell its called order taking.

A sales professional  has a wide base of knowledge of the products they sell and don’t sell and can recommend appropriate products for someone’s taste, budget and situation, again, if you think this is just because dealer x sells line Y most dealers sell their brands because they believe that their products either sound better, sound as good, or cost less and provide nearly the same performance.

We compaired a brand of electronics we sell $32k vs a $90k amp and in some ways the $32k amp was better in other ways the $90k one was, and we said that, we didn’t say our amp blew away amp x we reported the findings.

As per selling or promoting to make a profit, guess what most of the time it hasn’t happened, due to distance or territorial restrictions. We post to let people consider looking at products they might not have thought about to which they will hopefully go their local dealers to check out.

So lets look at a possible scenario shall we: I was thinking about buying a used pair of X they are $35k new while a used pair is $25k, why don’t you consider speaker Z it is brand new at $25k offers you this this and this and you may like it better or it may fit your needs even better.

If that person with an open mind then listend to said product, which would not likely not be with us, and found that product to be even better, do you know what that person would have been delighted to have read the post and been pissed off at you guys bashing someone who was making a good suggestion.

As per being a "home based dealer" it is the lines that you sell not where you sell them that makes you a dealer. What is a store it is a place which has products usually set up in an enviornment that is totally not like someone’s home, there are also a number of dealerships just like mine, run out of a house for conveinience or to save money on outragous rent to focus on product selection which we have a wide and varied lineup

Every heard of GTT Audio, they are a home based dealer/importer, Apex Audio’s in Colorado’s previous incarnation Audio Unlimited, was a home based dealer and they had the Focal Grand Utopias as well as many A list companies, Command AV in VA and there are a lot more, I think Ne Plus Ultra a Wilson dealer is based out of home as well.

When we said we actually have a wider product selection than most of the New York dealers that is not a boast, we have a huge selection of great products, in surround sound receivers we sell and display, Anthem, Arcam, Cambridge Audio, and Nad, we can actually demo each one in the same room/system.

As per lines carried most of our lines are A class lines, products such as KEF, Paradigm, Legacy, ATC, Dali, PSB, NAD, Conrad Johnson, T+A, BAT, Naim Manly, Rega, Lumin, Aurender, Cary Audio, Unison Research, Audioquest, Wireworld, Audience, Parasound, Anthem, Arcam, Electrocompaniet, Nuprime, are all great lines.

In the past we have carried Luxman, Hegel, Vivid, Bryston, Aragon,Chord, as well as many others lines that are well respected we noved on when we found better sounding products such as Unison Research which at the time sounded better than the Hegel and Luxman products.

4425 If you haven’t guessed we don’t want Wilson, as we feel they are more about ever escalating pricing, and changing models constantly and have lost their way, and we are very fond of the speaker lines we do sell, if you have also read our posts we do recommend Vivid and Rockport as being uber speakers and we don’t sell either of those lines currently, as per ARC haven’t heard their latest stuff but have found over the years issues with reliability and being a bit too sterile.

At this point being a mature dealership, we can carry almost any major line that interests us. We choose to carry lines that in our mind exhude value as well as performance.

You guys really need to lighten up and stop worrying that our little old dealership is running the forums. The entire industry is dying because of close minded people that are not interested in widening their worlds or looking at new ideas, that might interest others.

Dave owner, master troll, super shill, stealer of the one true ring
Audio Doctor NJ.

and even though I feel some of you have attacked us and in the case oif Grgr4blu with malacious intent, I would still welcome you into our store for you to see if you think we make great sound. Our hearts and ears are open are yours?

Audiotroy ruined this thread, too.

4425, I agree that shilling the products one carries by jumping into threads where the OP never asked about those products - under the guise of “being helpful” or “providing additional options” - is still shilling.

But look on the bright side - at least site management no longer allows him to post his phone number!

Soundermn
Well Done!  Two thumbs up!  And while I'm at it, I'd like to include Sabai and geoffkait to your list of childish posters.  
While some may say, "Just ignore posts by childish posters", it's hard to do when the back-and-forth bickering can dominate up to 80% of a thread.  Especially, since most of the bickering regresses into arguments that are completely off-topic, and on occasion, have totally derailed a worthwhile discussion.
I would love it, if as one poster suggested at the begining of this thread, if the OP could have some posts or some peoples posts removed. The OP should have some say-so and control over how the information is progressing. 
In my opinion, if the shills, the marketers and the childish don't like the way I restrict my topics; let the marketers, shills and the childish ignore me for a change.

As the the original poster I now find that I’m not the only one tired of dealer verbosity on what should be non commercial member discussion.
One another note I’m not sure who posting here has their business in their home but those that do aren’t going to be able to carry brands such as Wilson and ARC. I would think that would create even more bias against certain products. 
As it turned out my thread did pretty much get hijacked. There’s one poster/dealer that just needs to go elsewhere IMO. 

I generally lurk here but the desire for the old days resonates for me. I agree this used to be more hobbyists discussing used equipment and the pitching was on the For Sale section of the site. Changes creep up on you slowly. Imperceptibly even. Then here we are in pissing matches with characters unfamiliar. 

Years ago I was in the market for a CD player and bought one for some several-thousand-ridiculous-dollars. The guy selling me the unit said then that his future was not looking good. He’s got bricks and mortar to finance and the future is not this mechanical gizmo, but rather a chip the size of his fingernail. And now it’s all come true. The fact that dealers comb online fora for customers is a result of the collapse of their industry. 

I remember growing up in the 60s and there was plenty of flimflam then, but dealers were busy in their shops and listening rooms with little time for used equipment hobbyists. Call me old fashioned, but I like the old amp with knobs you have to jiggle to get it just right. 

I’m grateful for the select group that’s still here with a grounding wire still hanging off their ear. 

Agree with soundermn.  Would be hesitant to venture anywhere close to any establishment managed/run/owned by either.  

@audiotroy and @gpgr4blu 
you two have proven the OPs point just by your interactions here. You have turned this into a personal diatribe against each other. And you've hijacked the thread.  You are both being childish while calling everyone else childish. 

You both think you are better than the other (and better than most). Guess what?  You're both wrong. 

Grow up. You have value to offer but your senseless pissing match is obscuring that value. 

Its gnat, not nat.

We are the world we are the children. We are here to make a better day! Lol.

You're both right. My apologies.

scorpio1951,

Avoid and ignore -- the best ways of dealing with these folks.

   This is a FORUM. If someone bothers you, ignore him.

audiotroy463 posts10-27-2017 10:29pm

The solution to all of this is simple NO One should be attacking anyone on these forums.

If you perceive that someone’s advice a poster, a moderator a dealer, or anyone on these forums is not to your tastes, or for some personal gain, just be a grown up and don’t read that persons post, just pretend it isn’t there.

Sounds great. When will you implement this new plan?

audiotroy,

I agree. Avoiding their posts and their presence is the best way.

sbai I am not reffering to you or suggesting anythiing negative about you at all.

We all need to calm down and see the merit for what it is and if you think someone is a shill don’t read their posts. simple or even better seek out your local dealer and see for yourself you might find a new addition that you really love.

Attacking and forcing a rebuttal is not appropriate behavior either and Grgr4blu should be reprimanded for his inappropriate behavior.

No problem as long as the dealer discloses who they are.
 What I find extremely unprofessional is when a manufacturer posts about their products and makes subjective comments of any kind. Especially when  in a comparitive nature to other competitive products!    I believe only factual and technical information should be given by any manufacturer.

The solution to all of this is simple NO One should be attacking anyone on these forums.

If you perceive that someone’s advice a poster, a moderator a dealer, or anyone on these forums is not to your tastes, or for some personal gain, just be a grown up and don’t read that persons post, just pretend it isn’t there.

It is like the people who believe that censorship is the answer to seeing something on TV you find objectionable, most people in the US feel that the constituion guarantees us the right to free speech therefore the common thing that people have resorted to is the comment not to watch or turn the channel.

Please lets all grow up a bit and respect each others rights to post, and right to have an opinion and maybe you will find out when you hear X Y or Z at some show and go wow that product sounds great, or a product that you own and have heard sound aweful at a show, which sounds fantastic to you in your system that setup is everything and we all have tastes.

Some people love black coffee while others drink coffee which is half milk and 4 spoonfuls of sugar, which is right? It comes down to personal taste and bias while others say I hate coffee, and that same person has never tasted a really good high end cup and viola now likes coffee.

We test a lot of products, if you actually call us and speak to myself or Troy you can see for yourself and you are free to visit my store and listen to any of our systems and see for yourself if we make good sound or not.

audiotroy,

Please note that I was referring to commercial shills. I am not in the audio business and I do not have any affiliation with any audio company. I do not have a commercial agenda.

Sabai who is getting abused. Grgr4blu chimes in and attacks and attacks and attacks. 

I am not goint to allow this without rebuttal. His behavior is about revenge for feeling slighted in someway by me. It does not belong in the forums.

My perceived crime was to talk too much to him. If he was a real gentleman he could have just talked with me in an adult matter at the store and I would have willingly never talked with him again, he could have done that in a respectful matter and I would have gotten the hint. 

You can't have it both ways, a dealer is going to promote their products if they talk at all about them even if in agreement, to mention you have or are a dealer you place yourself in that position. Yet when we enter into a discussion with a Canadian or European, a US dealer gains nothing.

As per Grgr4blu's integrity 

Searching for the most "accurate" speaker (below 15K)

I’m looking for the most accurate and resolving speakers (budget is <= 15K). Paradigm Persona 3F, Kef Reference 3 or Focal Sopra 2 are some of the options I can think of. Any opinions on how these compare? Should I had other options to this shortlist? The amplifier is the (absolutely extraordinary) Nagra Classic AMP.

 

Gee Vermeer is directly mentioning Personas and Kefs which are two brands we sell, seeking information and opinions on them, who better to address this then a dealer who actually sell both brands, and I knew full well he is in Portugal so it is IMPOSSIBLE to sell him anything. 

So it seems you don't follow your own rules now doesn't it?

"Note that I never attack Audiotroy unless he comes into a thread having nothing to do with his products under the guise of educating the OP when in fact he is selling his wares. "

As part of our continuous and never ending fights on that thread:

Audiotroy:
I need not prove my hearing capabilities to you. Nor are you entitled to waste my time proving anything to you, a naked Persona shill here on Audiogon. Are you paid an extra commission to sell them? I'm not entitled to that answer so don't bother.

That does not address any of the issues on the thread it is directly an attack.

As per the concept of shilling:

Grgr4blu you seem to talk about how great your system is are you therfore a shill? 

Is Ctstooner also a shill for Vandersteen? He seems to mention them a lot.

I am willing to bet by your definition almost anyone who is passionatly endorsing or recommending any brand is a shill

These days, entering into discussion on the forum risks encountering all kinds of people. I mostly stay away these days, because the forum has indeed deteriorated progressively over the years. Letting dealers express their opinions is one thing. Tolerating verbal abuse from dealers and using the forum to promote dealers' products is another.

Audiogon allows verbal abuse by dealers and allows dealers to shill unabashedly. This means that it takes a lot more energy to stick with threads that often deteriorate into a morass of tangled palaver, dispute, and the expression of ideas as an excuse to promote dealer products.

geoffkait is a good example of a dealer whose omnipresence is encouraged by Audiogon -- and who is thereby encouraged to continue to be abusive and to promote his commercial agenda under the guise of alleged expertise because he knows that Audiogon will not step in. The only case I can remember when they did step in was with Audiopheil. But that was years ago. 

Anyway, since I have much better ways to spend my time, better to avoid the forum and allow the deterioration to run its course. Audiogon runs the forum the way they want -- as a business. For them, it is all about money. If allowing dealers to have their way is good for business, then so be it.

I expect this post to be disallowed by Audiogon. They often disallow truthful posts. Freedom of expression is not a priority here.

Gpgr4blu,

You may have issues, with me, however, many people are having them with you as well.

As per knowledge you take offense that someone who is younger than you might know more, which might have been your percevied slight and what you felt was wrong with working with me in the first place when you encountered me at SBS.

 I can assure you when I was in my 20's I most probably had a better system than you in your 40s, not trying to be bragadocious, just trying to make a point. about your comments about not liking someone guide you and again I started young in the hobby. 

I can guarantee if I was one of your "buddies" it would not be the case, as you would therefore grant me the respect that you would engender for one of your peers, and the guidance would be considered accepted council.

 I am sure you didn't feel hostile to Andy or any of the other dealers. I know for a fact that many people liked Andy's approach and you can bet he was making recommendations to people the same way that I do. 

As per selling my wares most of the posts about Paradigm has not resulted in any sales as there are territorial issues in the States and Vermeer is in Europe, another gentleman in Canada.

So if we come across as a shill for Paradigm you come accross as a shill for Wilson as you are always mentioning them or chiming in are you on ther payroll? Ctstooner is in love with Vandersteen so is he also on Vandersteen's payroll? If you get my drift most audiophiles are high on their brand because they feel they are the best they have heard. 

I also said in one of my earlier posts that I don't think the Paradigms are the best speakers on Earth I stated they are a great value for what they do. 

Notice I never said to someone looking at Harbeths to look at Paradigms? Why becaue Harbeths are musical ie colored while Paradigm Personas are not, here I would talk about ATC why because ATC is a rival to Harbeth and they are also musical although to my ears much less colored. 

So if I am a shill why do I talk about so many different products, why do I talk about my products, duh I have selected them because to my ear they are better or I wouldn't endorse them.

I will state my point one last time, this is a forum and which is supposed to act as a way for people to exhange ideas.

If no one ever chimes in with why don't you listen to X no one will ever learn about new products and new companies, sometimes to the detriment of others who might actually want to find out about products they are not considering. 

In your case the only thing anyone will learn from you is that you don't like me and nothing about audio as your postings are mostly in agreement without ever questioning if brand x is right for the poster like on the Proac vs Wilson thread.

Audiotroy:
You can’t help yourself from lying. The fact that I mentioned in this thread (about you hijacking threads) that I refuse to hijack a current active thread re Personas to get back at you because I am not like you---does not mean I have hijacked a thread. Never have--never will. You will note that I do not appear on the Persona thread because I do not wish to stoop to your level. Besides, I unlike you, have nothing to sell.
Ethiessen1-
You are correct. I could cool it a little and I will. I would be bored to tears reading our exchanges. But it’s not animosity on my part. Note that I never attack Audiotroy unless he comes into a thread having nothing to do with his products under the guise of educating the OP when in fact he is selling his wares. So, as a service to the other members of that thread who do not know his m.o. and who may actually think he is providing valuable unbiased information, I place his never ending promotions in context. He then produces a thousand words to defend himself--usually attacking me with lies--like above--and on it goes.-It’s the way Audiotroy does it that gets to me because it was done to me in person and others I know when he worked at Sound By Singer and at shows since then --by holding himself out as THE expert and his products as THE best for the money while denigrating other dealers and extolling his own integrity. BTW, I liked all other salespeople at Sound By Singer and have never had a problem with any other salesperson at any other dealership in all of my years.
But I hear you Ethiessen1--and will keep my attacks shorter and sweeter in the future. And, AS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, I will not deal with Audiotroy’s bad conduct unless he invades a thread I am engaged in which has nothing to do with his products to sell them. As I’ve said before but Audiotroy never hears--no hijacking in the Audiotroy style mentioned above=silence from me.

It works both ways.

That’s exactly right. You can stop at any time just as easily. Go look at the number of posts in the thread, and then count the number of them that are yours. In my entire life, I’ve yet to see an argument with only one participant. I said it in my first post, but I’ll say it again, you’re not doing yourself any favors here, audiotroy, no matter what you may think.
L.

Anyone interested in a beater Kia with 215,000 miles, and with 3 of the 4 speakers actually working.  Tires included at no extra charge.

Thank you Ethiessen you are correct sir! 

Oh and for hijacking a thread Grgr4blu is doing that very thing on another post on Paradigms by chiming in to attack me and not adding anything,

It works both ways.

1-Frankly, the issue with Audiotroy's posts are not his initial posts; it's the pissing contests that result when gpgr4blu decides to weigh in. If gpgr4blu would take a flyer, I guarantee Audiotroy wouldn't post ad infinitum defending his position. If Audiotroy were an exotic car dealer and could help potential consumers know the differences between say Porshes, Ferraris and Bugattis, he would be accepted as an asset to that group. In my view, he fills the same role here.
2-Unfortunately, due to the antagonistic nature of the dialogue, I need to be in the frame of mind to wade through the smoke to see the kernels of knowledge there. If these threads were moderated, a good moderator might defuse these multiple post wastes of space and only allow what is germane to the thread. 
3-The only thing I've learned from gpgr4blu is that he dislikes Audiotroy and some of the staff at Sound By Singer.  I'd wager he knows quite a bit about audio and I would welcome his spreading that information here vs his ad hominem attacks. 

As per Bo not even close. I have read his posts, I do talk about my products in a positive mannor, I also do mention they are a flavor and are very good products. All of my brands are major ones that have major industry accolades, wether or not you find brand x amp to be better than brand y is your taste and setup and matching components. 

When many major reviewers all say the same thing and you are constantly bashing that brand guess what you sound like Bo which is not credibile.

I have said that Wilson, Magico, Rockports Focals etc are all great product that have their sound. Personally I find Magicos boring, and Rockports to be more to my liking, but that is me. I have heard my share of bad Wilson setups as well as a few good ones, I have also heard YG sound mediocre as well as sounding great. 

If you read my posts I have stated that in certain ways some of my products are really good and may be better in certain areas, and may challange brand y which I am sure why some people are hurt they want to believe that their sacred product is better than all others. 

I have said time and time again, these products are tools and so can be moved in and out no big deal. If I find a better tool I move to that one it seems that certain people are threatend by a conversation.

There are dealers who give great advice then there are those who are just cheerleaders that try to quash real critiques from some audiophiles or past customers. I had an Ayon player some years ago and learned that there is a huge difference between being good and heavy advertising claiming to be good.  I talk to a dealer and said I wanted a little more warmth in the system and he just pushed the player on me and said that this would be fine. I was a young audiophile and didn’t know any better Ayon are not bad players but warm they are not! Had to learn quickly and after I complained about a problem with the remote the person came in on a forum and hi jacked the discussion. Just have to be careful!

Okay my supporters are fake how many fake Wilson supporters or Vandersteen supporters or Lamm or ARC of whatever.

The reality is these people are real, and have found out that I really do know my stuff, and have either been to my store or have actually talked with me. 

Grow up Grgr4blu, you have the maturity of a nat. Please patronize the dealer friends you have whom I am sure will sell you the most expensive gear that they have because they know what is best for you and why don;'t you have the balls to let me know who you really are or are you just the coward you exhibit here. 

Jb why don’t you take your own advice. If you can’t determine a sales pitch from a conversation maybe you should.

The only reason I mentioned that was due to Grgr4blu starting it.

My posts are hardly off topic, if it wasn’t a certain person adding fuel to the fire there would be no need to rebutt anyone. If you haven’t guessed you are following and exhibiting the same bad behavior you accuse us of.

There is a difference between a sales pitch and a presentation or a discussion.

If you are discussing cars and you are a Ford guy try illustrating a story or creating an ancedotal reference which doesn’t mention the car or the make or the model is nearly impossible especially if you are trying to make a point in a conversation with a Chevy guy.

Here is a nice ancedolatal example, as mentioned before.

You had a guy question if a 25+ years old speaker brand X was better than brand Y and for the same money as brand Y you said why don’t you try brand Z that is also the same price and brand Z is also a highly rated product that you can have brand new and you might like it more than brand Y. Wow that is both stupid and confusing.

You like Grgr4blu think everything is a sales pitch guess what many times it isn’t and as mentioned before WE HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN MOST OF THE TIME!

We can not sell Brand X into dealer Z’s territory so if we are offering advice for some people to look at certain products because they might actually like them better or be saving money.

This is how we all learn about new product and new ideas, I have learned about new brands and products because sometimes a poster mentioned something I never heard about.

Did I immediaetly cry foul because someone mentioned some other product that was not mentioned in the original post. Grow up.

This dealer bashing is just wrong, many dealers here are actually offering real advice and many have nothing to gain either.

If I could tell you how many pictures of systems I have seen here that have huge setup errors it would boggle your mind.

That is what you learn in 30+ years of doing this for a profession.

I have turned on a few speaker designers and manufacturers to a few of the setup products we routinely use and they were shocked at just how much better we got the room sounding. They were open minded enough to let me show them and demonstrate them.

It is how open we all are to learning, and by the way JB all of life is selling from your first date to your job, to how you ingriatiate yourself with others.

It is doubtful you would ever or could ever benefit from someone like me who plays with a lot of different products and tests out lots of intersting tweeks some of which make a huge difference because you in your mind would be this guy is trying to get me.

Quite frankly I don’t want to be bothered you are  not worth me selling you anything. 

Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ

+1 jbatlanta:
One of my posts directed at Audiotroy was also deleted some time ago. He has overtaken Bo as the worst blowhard on Audiogon. Hey, right now there is a Persona thread where Dave is selling like mad with some fake supporters.  I was going to invade, but I just can't bring myself to act like him. 

Grgr4blu you have an interesting take on our history.

As you have said you stopped working with me because i talked too much gee what a crime. Most of my actual clients liked to have conversations.

As per working with me you again mistake fact with fiction.

Unless you purchased what I recommended or had come to your home and brought products to you and worked together via a testing session we havent worked together.

As per knowledge i started in audio at age 5 first reel to reel and started with my own real system at 13, as well as building and modifying Dynacos with my dad as a teen.

You mistake age with wisdom.

As per trying to sell you something ie Ushers or Personas if it was at an audio show  that is called a presentation most people who go to shows know that.

Integrity if you have a problem with someones approach you tell them in a nice but constructive mannor which is what people who care about other people do.

Instead you run to Andy or do as you do here hide behind your Audiogon handle.

I dont even know who you actually are.

What is interesting to note is how

Yyzsantabarbara
Willgolf
Ricridi1 

Whom are people who have actually talked to me and in some cases bought stuff that they enjoyed all tell a different story.

Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ

Grgr4blu,
 
Gee what a load of hurt hogwash.  If you never bought from me or taken my suggestions, YOU NEVER WORKED WITH ME!

As per trying to sell you Ushers or Personas, unless it was in my shop which you haven't been to, you are MISTAKING A SALES PRESENTATION AT AN AUDIO SHOW, by the way, a sales persentation at an Audio Show is my job by the way, with a personal demo and consult. 

As per trying to "sell" you something you obviously knoq more than me so there is no way I could sell you something as per your advanced experiences in the industry, I started at age 5 with my first reel to reel, and helped my father build and modify Dynaco gear in my early teens, lest you forget our previous discussions so although you may be 10 years older you may actually have less experience than I do. 

As per talking your ear off, I generally get to know my clients and their needs and what they do and do not like as a way of guiding them to find what they like.

As per you and your "honesty" vs mine, if you had the timerity and the balls to say that you don't like my method, to my face you can as you do here ask Andy to get you another salesman, but you can hide behind your Audiogon handle. 

Audiotroy:
Selling out of your home a nasty crack? How is the truth a nasty crack?
You claim I have no direct experience with you. But Dave, as I've said on numerous occasions (which you do not comprehend because you only know how to talk too much, not to listen) , I have worked with you as I've said and on at least 4 or 5 occasions at Sound By Singer and at 2 different audio shows when you were desperately pushing Audio Doctor products and where you tried to hard sell me Ushers (one time) and then Personas (the next time) like no one else at a show ever pushed me.
 I stopped seeing you at Sound By Singer because I asked Andy to make sure I did not have to deal with you as a salesperson. I usually had about and hour and a half to listen to a desired product but, with you, I'd only get to listen for a half hour because I could not get you to stop talking for the first hour and telling me how great you were and what you thought I should buy. I was one of a number of people I know who made that request of Andy. Ask him--he'll remember a group of us who separately and independently did not want to hear what you had to say in your definitive (yet highly subjective) way. We were all more educated in the audio world than you at that time and did not need to hear your introduction to yourself and your self professed expertise every time we visited.
As I've also said, we all built speakers, amps, cables and other DIY audio products and had years of experience with most of the manufacturers of the day. We did not need the salesman's rush. But as always, you never listened and just kept on talking. Just like here. See---I would not have to tell everyone in this thread about our history as I have done in other threads if you did not lie about me never working with you. 
Last, many NY dealers are friends because I've purchased a lot of gear over the past 38 years and have purchased more than 2 or 3 items from virtually all of them. We do not eat out together or check in on the family--we are not that close-- but when you, of all people, impugn all of them as out to make a buck--unlike you who sells gear because you care about what is in the best interests of the customer, I'm sorry--I'd just like the readership to know that I and a large number of my audio buddies have had a far different experience.  

I am not bothered by Audiotroy or any other dealers.  I have actually purchased from Audiotroy and I VALUE his insight.  I take with a grain of salt half of non dealer input just like I take with dealer input.  Why is it so invasive when someone provides an opinion dealer or audiophile regardless of whether they are selling or commenting.  I get a charge of some quote audiophiles who here a speaker once or twice and they are experts on that product.  In many markets it is hard to hear a diversity of products.  Accordingly, it is great to at least get an opinion of someone who deals in the business everyday.  That does not mean you have to buy from them.  I do an incredible amount of research before I buy a product.  I value everyone's insight.  If you don't like what a dealer says just ignore it.  Why respond in a negative way.  It will just fuel an argument that won't accomplish anything.  Just enjoy your music!

wow dlcokrum, that is really kind of nasty. We are attacked time and time again by a man who is friends with other dealers yet loves to slander mine as he is not a friend, and states that he doesn't like me or my staff, is that being unbiased and neutral and he makes ridiculous claims against my products and a few of you think that is okay. 

Grgr4blu's attacks lead to rebuttals which cause this "hijacking" as we are forced to rebutt his claims.

You can say you don't like the sound of the Paradigms but at this point it is impossible to deny they are a contenter aganst Magico, Wilson, Rockport, etc, what you like is a different matter. 

Are they the best speakers on Earth no they are not, and I have never said that, what I have said is that they are a tremendous value for what they do and offer for the price. 

I make the last post not as a boastful thing, but how do you know anything? You test. If Dealer A has a limited selection how does he know how good many other brands are they he doesn't sell?

We sell most of the best digital products such as Arunder, Lumin, Naim, Innious, and others. Do we sell all on the market no we don't it isn't possible but how many dealers sell all of those brands?

We are proud of our store and our wide selection of great products that we sell. 

Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ

I was pretty much in favor of dealer and manufacturer participation (within limits), but the last part of this thread has me reconsidering.

audiotroy - one of my childhood friend’s mother used to say, "The more you stir sh*t, the more it smells."

Dave

Grgr4blu, also as your selling out of his home, nasty crack, we have a wider product selection then most of the New York dealers, go check out our video and you will see more unique gear on display, then almost anywhere in this part of the country.

Our older video shot 1.5 year ago, does not show the T+A audio gear, the Light Harmonic Davinci, the Aqua Hifi Forumula, ATC speakers, Legacy speakers, Baetis music servers,Micromega M100, NAD M32, plus a lot more gear.

So look at pictures of our shop vs your buddies shop do you want to know why we are quite knoweledable look at our store.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4

and lastly you who are turned off by my "salesmanship" have never been to my store and have never worked with me so you have NO DIRECT experience with me nor have heard systems at my store you have only heard my show setups.

So how much do you reallly know, if you had worked with me, tried some of my suggestions, and I was not able to make your system dramatically better or heard my store setups then maybe you would have a chance to be considered a fair and unbiased voice.

And to the gentleman who believes that you should shun dealers that promote their products, the reason that most dealers have the products they sell is because they believe them to be better, hence they want to sell those products.

Our store sells many great brands whether a BAT, a Vac, a Manly Labs, or CJ sounds as good or better than an ARC of Lamm or whatever tube amp that an OP may be talking about, it should not be considered a total faux pau to mention any of the competiting product, if a dealer talks about a product that may be exactly what the OP is looking for that should be considerd a good thing and the likely hood that the OP would or could find the recommendation to be a good thing and they would then seek out their local dealer to listen to said producte. 

This hostitlity towards dealers is just silly as most dealers can be a great source of knowledge and have a tremendous amount of experience.

Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ