I started a discussion here this morning to get some feedback on whether an external DAC would make an appreciable improvement over an internal processor’s DAC. During the discussion, I said that I typically visit a local audio dealer, to experience the equipment and then, comparison shop to find the best deal. The particular dealer I was referring to, emails me weekly, sends postcards monthly and catalogs quarterly. It’s always with an invitation to “see and hear the difference”. So I visit, and occasionally buy some small ticket items. But, when it comes to spending thousands on nationally available equipment, I don’t feel any obligation to limit my shopping to that one location.
When I shared my buying habits with the forum, I received responses that said using any brick and mortar stores to demo and then buying elsewhere “cuzz” it’s cheaper is just plain wrong…
I was surprised at that statement. I’m a value oriented person. I enjoy quality items. But I search for them at the best price - is that wrong? If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated?
Not sure if they still do this, but Guitar Center had a computer station designated for shoppers to look up pricing on line (only new stuff) to compare it to their pricing of the same item, and if you found something for less, even if it was "sale priced," they would sell you the thing for that price. A great idea.
There’s no reason to feel sorry. I understand your point completely. However, if you look at some of the earlier posts here, you’ll see the shops I bought from, after my online searches ,are B&M shops with web and e-commerce sites, one does charge me tax (8.625%) and occasionally shipping. I do shop my local dealer for sundries and ironically he’s very competitive with those. But on bigger ticket brand names, there’s no flex.
So, I don’t feel an obligation to pay him $7000 plus tax for the exact same item that another reputable, authorized dealer sells me for $5875 that included tax and shipping.
You did make me wonder, if Mcintosh authorizes dealers who don't have B&M showrooms. I know there's a McIntosh presence on Amazon, but it's for third party sellers who sell through Amazon for their logistics. Most of the search results I come across are B&M sites who advertise items either at list, "call for price" or "not available online".
jetter, sure all is in the intentions, but I also feel that demoing equipment is a part of manufacturer's service thru the dealer in order to promote their product. I cannot imagine car maker authorizing any dealership that doesn't provide test drives or charges for it. Honda wants me to buy their car and not the Ford, no matter where.
Also, dividing all available sources into local stores and internet only stores is oversimplification, since many brick and mortar stores, including local one, have websites and sell over internet as well (that's how I bought my current speakers). I will always give my local store a chance to compete wiling to pay more (to support them), but will buy somewhere else if they are unreasonable (greedy).
gwbeers, I am sorry up front if I am wrong, but I can’t help but believe that when you go into a brick and mortar store and test their equipment you already know that you are not going to buy it from them, but will purchase online. Why do I think that? Because no one is naïve enough and has been hiding their head in the sand long enough to not know that online dealers do not have the overhead that a brick and mortar stores have and by and large need to charge more. I will tell you one thing, get ready for the impact of the recent Supreme Court decision that online retailers are now required to collect sales taxes on purchases, unlike before. This will add another 6% or so to your (and my) purchase costs.
Now, if you go into the bricks and mortar store and tell them that you want to listen to their equipment but will pay the vendor that sells it for the least, that's being a man upfront. By and large, what I am writing is geared towards dedicated audio stores, not so much Best Buys type stores.
1. You do your internet research and buy something. But it's not what you want. You sell it at a loss of $2000.
2. You audition that equipment and decide it's not for you. You buy something else instead.
See the difference? That audition was worth $2000. And you won't pay a dime?
Well terry9
1. I wouldn’t have spent $5800 for a $7000 list item online, if that item wasn’t returnable. Plus, it’s the perfect audition, in my room, with my gear. No loss, great demo.
2. I audition that equipment and decide it's not for me. I buy something else instead. Agreed.
Do you see a difference? I don’t. So, I wouldn’t pay a dime for an in-store audition, considering it would cost me $1200.
Happy to pay for test drive? Nobody would even accept money for that. It is assumed a cost of doing business and I wonder why Audio has to be different? (some dealers already charge for audition).
"Would yo be HAPPY to pay for test drive of the car?"
Yes, I would.. and if you're serious about buying something then I don't see why anyone would not be willing to put a little skin in the game to avoid wasting people's time.
HaHaHa, I’m going to assume that the ”your kind” comment was not intended to be racist and the reference to the “blind” not meant to be insensitive - but neither of us is willing to pay MSRP… we’re like twins!
"...as long as they are in the ball park, I will give them the business, as their service is stellar..." I'd do it this way
I'll haggle with the B&M who let me audition, to as near as I can to the online price plus shipping to give the B&M a chance to get my business. If it's off a few bucks I'll get from the B&M.
Call it idealisticl but nowadays I try to support local b&m's because when they're gone there'll be no one left to display what we want to buy.
1. You do your internet research and buy something. But it's not what you want. You sell it at a loss of $2000. 2. You audition that equipment and decide it's not for you. You buy something else instead.
See the difference? That audition was worth $2000. And you won't pay a dime?
If after your auto rental experience, you decide this is the car for you, do you visit your local dealership and pay the window sticker price? Or, do you try to negotiate a lower price? If you do choose to negotiate and the dealer tells you the sticker price is firm - what would your decision be?
Viridian, It is hard to tell dealer that I will buy or not buy the car if I never drove it. Test drive and presentation is treated as a service on behalf of the car maker. I just bought a car few months ago - 2019 brand new design. This car will not likely get to rental places ever. Do you think that I should still buy this car from this dealer if they ask couple thousand more than everybody else. There is no way of knowing how much, and they won’t tell you, unless you’re ready to buy.
I think that's a pretty good standard btw. I don't recall that I ever set foot in an audio salon and not tell the dealer upfront that I was there just to get a look at what they had and that I was not there to buy that day.
As someone stated above, it's an issue of class. Either you have it or you don't. Giving a dealer the opportunity to match a price is a touch of class. Going into a dealer with the sole intention of using his facility and knowledge in order to then go on-line to purchase lacks class. To the OP, next time you step into a dealer's store, right from the get-go, tell them you only there to listen and gather info for an on-line purchase. A class dealer will still give you some assistance (assuming a potential real customer wasn't also needing attention).
I may have a different interpretation of Showrooming than you. I think it’s the act of gathering information at a B&M location with NO intent to purchase. I think my experience was quite different. I was committed to purchasing a specific item that day and I did so. The fact that, that store was not willing to sell below MSRP was their decision. So, I shopped elsewhere and made the purchase that day.
Funny,I came across a post you made earlier today, in regards to a fellow’s custom amp order not being fulfilled…
“LOL, you are supposed to be a business person. No one talks you into anything; you make a conscious decision to either accept, or reject, an offer, just as all of us in business do.
And, as clients, we don’t really care what your margins are. We make the same decision you do, we either buy a product because it fills a need and we see it as a value, or we don’t. This is independent of your profit margin.
I bet that there are some excellent business classes at your local community college. You might avail yourself of their knowledge before posting again.”
So, I don’t think an educated consumer is stealing, if they negotiate with a retailer who is unwilling to be price competitive.
As was stated earlier, we need brick and mortar stores. But at what cost?
A few years ago I was looking to upgrade my stereo and went to the local store that had helped me in the past (decades ago). The salesman was very knowledgeable and very personable. And of course offered some excellent opinions/ideas.
I left the store with a new plan and wanted to spend some time thinking it through.
Fast forward a month or two, my wife and I were in Best Buy looking for a laptop and I went over to the Magnolia center to look around. They had a McIntosh C50 on sale as they were replacing it with a C52 and they had an incredible price on it. I called the local store to see if they had anything similar going on and they said nope.
So I bought the one at Best Buy.
Fast forward three or four months and we were back in the same Best Buy and I went over to say hello and ended up talking cars for a while. The manager asked how I was doing with my search and I told him I was scouring the want ads looking for a used set of MC601's..... He then asked how much I was willing to pay for a used set and when I told him he offered me a new set for very close to what I was looking to pay for used. So, of course, I took him up on his offer but not before calling the local store to see what they could do.
As a few have stated, some of us work with limited resources. And some of us just want to not be taken advantage of. I do buy stuff at the local store even when I realize it can be bought elsewhere cheaper. I don't mind paying extra to keep the local store in business. But I won't spend thousands of dollars to do so.
I see both sides to this and have dealt with elitist dealers who demand full retail while talking down to you. I have given them second and even third chances... going back into their showroom while considering a new component.
Now... if they treat me poorly after I have given them a second chance I do not feel the smallest bit remorseful buying it elsewhere after auditioning it during their second chance opportunity.
These dealers are living in the 90's and need to understand that full retail is a tough pill to swallow, so they had better make MY buying experience orgasmic, otherwise I don't have much sympathy for them.
I don't expect them to price match someone who is slinging gear out of their garage with a website, but I also don't appreciate the derision and outrage they display when I ask them if they are negotiable off retail.
At this point, I'm done with them and haven't set foot in their store in over 5 years. I watch them struggle to keep their doors open, yet they are still a "retail only" shop. In this environment I don't expect them to be around much longer and it's their own fault quite frankly. I know what they pay for their products and I know what the margins are. At this point it's either pride or greed or a poorly run business - that keeps them trying to get full retail for their wares.
Guess what, 20 years ago I was billing at MUCH higher rates than I am now - but environments change and you either adapt or disappear. For some reason the typical high-end B&M feels they should be immune to this phenomenon. They aren't. Period.
If you owe the shop where you auditioned the gear, it is to be in on any eventual purchase if they are willing. If you decide to buy, do the research on line and then go and see the dealer and tell them what it will cost you if bought elsewhere (be sure and include all costs including shipping) and ask if they can get anywhere near that. If they match it, buy from them. If they get close, consider buying from them, as the back up from a dealer you bought from is worth more than from a remote seller who probably doesn't give a damn once your payment went through.
I have had great luck doing this - the dealer appreciates my point of view and the fact that I feel obligated to give them a shot at it, and in the event that there are issues with the gear, local support beats remote hands down.
Smart dealers realize that it is business they otherwise wouldn't get and usually offer a better price. If they don't, at least you offered and needn't feel guilty.
I have also had great luck in calling out of province dealers 500 km away and telling them that I am going to buy a particular unit and can do it out of the US or from them if they give me a similar price. Never been turned down. There is always a lot of gear with no local representation that one might want to try.
I have a problem with BM dealers who charge MSRP, then have the item drop shipped to me and tell me that I would have to contact the manufacturer for warranty service. They function as order takers only, and have succeeded in turning the item into a commodity. Why should I encourage this activity ? Why shouldn't I look for a lower price ?
OTOH: "
The particular dealer I was referring to, emails me weekly, sends postcards monthly and catalogs quarterly. It’s always with an invitation to “see and hear the difference”. This scenario represents a BM that tries to add value. I suspect a salesman may invest time in the prospective buyer to help find the best fit. I am sure this dealer would oblige a request for an equipment loan to enable home evaluation. I suspect this dealer may have the item in inventory, and may assist with a warranty claim. As to price- we no longer exist in a vacuum, so it is incumbent on the dealer (any dealer) to be aware that online pricing is their competition. The dealer in question has provided extra service that represents value and should be able to earn a profit from the sale. But there should also be an acknowledgement that some discount may be negotiated.
Next time, I would ask the local dealer for a discount. You may be pleasantly surprised.
As for me, I tend to purchase used, and I am respectful of dealer's time for that reason. I am very good at finding what I want at very attractive prices so that I can resell if needed, and not lose money.
To answer your question, you are wasting their time. What you think you should pay for any given item has nothing to do what the store needs to cover expenses and generate a profit.
Long time ago salesman "wasted" many hours presenting car to me, including test drive. After that he asked for MSRP and refused to negotiate. I bought same car in 5 minutes at another dealership for much less.
Mom & Pop shops, part of the golden age of the hobby. Personally if I use up someone's time I tip them. Their time is just as important as mine. I tip my waiter, I tip my taxi, why wouldn't I tip my audio salesperson. If someone treats you well they are worthy of your support. It's true, it may not be an issue of ethics. It is however an issue of class.
@rhljazz To answer your question, you are wasting their time. What you think you should pay for any given item has nothing to do what the store needs to cover expenses and generate a profit.
If this statement is your model for a retail business, you’ll be broke in no time. If a customer has researched the specs and competitive pricing, they are the most valuable asset in you business. And it should be your business to overcome their objections and make a sale. If however, you choose to position your business in a location, with the amenities of your choice, that has an overhead so high, that it doesn’t allow you to overcome a qualified customers objections, in order to generate a profit - you have an unsustainable business model.
On the other side of the coin, how would you react if your employer informed you they just received a qualified job application for your position and that applicant is willing to do your job for way less money. So now your employer wants to know if you’re amicable to a pay cut. Nice huh?
This is a perfect analogy to the buyer seller scenario. Your boss (now the buyer of your service) has made you an offer. You (now the seller) can accept or deny it. The question is - how negotiable are you. You could hold your ground and tell them, “No deal, I drive luxury cars, wear designer clothing and my wife likes fine jewelry, I can’t pay for all that with any less than you pay me now!” Or you might consider, you’re not as young as you used to be, how long will it take to find a new job, will it be at the same rate as here, or willI be starting from the bottom again, is my 401K vested, will the new job have the same benefits??????? It’s your decision. But either way the “Buyer” controls the deal.
You know what I do then? I walk out and go get a job somewhere else. Nobody owes anyone the **right to stay in business**. That’s a privilege, nothing more.
Shaking my head here at the profound lack of understanding what a capitalist society is.
To all:
Ethics are often a group thing and can be beneficial that way, but they can also act to curb or limit individualism or personal freedoms. They are usually arrived at or settled on by existing social pressures of the times. But, trying to get out in front of such a movement and dictate ahead of the curve of those forces what the the expected behavior might be usually results in a tepid response. Some restaurants have enforced tipping. But, even though that practice has actually been around for more than decade now, it hasn’t exactly taken the country by storm. Even so, I still tend to file all that under ’business decision’.
One theme that I see pop up here that I myself (respectfully) disagree with is the notion that we are we are here to serve the dealers/manufacturers. While I see nothing wrong with doing so voluntarily, I have a bit of a problem with our support being described as some sort of right that should be conferred by consumers onto the dealers. I think the source of this is the very thinking that I have been railing against for decades now.
When I first got serious about system build for the first time, decades ago now, I had to come to grips with facing the facts as I saw them (and as have so many who went before me and those who will come after). I had to wrestle for some time as to just how much money it might take (realistically as possible) for me to truly get what I want out of the hobby by the time I’m done. Do I "give in" to the slippery slope or do I hold out and resist and redouble all my efforts to ignore virtually all of what the industry is telling or beckoning me to accept. That was a rather large chapter of my journey and as much as I could I began by choosing the latter, only succumbing partially to the ’realities’ of needing to drop some coin toward the very end of my efforts, which I’m finally well satisfied with. But, it taught me how to go ’behind the lines’ (in this sort of ’war’ I might call it) and deal with companies and dealers who could’ve told me from the beginning what I might expect from having the goals of gaining very nice sound but at (for me) an attainable budget...but, they chose not to. Oh, they pretended to tell me that, time and again, they made the pretense of doing so, but, only to fall back on choosing not to when it counted. A few of them actually did further my cause in that regard, and I remain loyal and grateful to them to this day.
But, evidently, this is not quite the rather universal sort of experience that I had supposed was among us, or maybe some folks here have yet to go through all that. Some seem to feel as if that slippery slope was just simply the price of admission and that they just accepted it, without the questioning I gave it, and just punched their ticket and went under the tent minus all the angst. And all that wrangling with manufacturers about whether or not they were leading me down a garden path? I’m thinking that’s where this ’we’re here to serve the dealer/manufacturer’ thinking may come from. We find ourselves manipulated almost at every turn in this hobby by those who want us know certain things about their wares or the nature of design and perhaps not know some plain truths. The hype and the marketing are always there (no big surprise to me at this point, really), shaping how we think and possibly our attitudes toward the industry and hobby as a result. It’s just that I will Never apologize to anyone for my having to maintain for myself an honest, realistic and astute perspective as I can of what all I’m willingly choosing to participate in....the good, the bad and the ugly. That’s my frame of reference.
Bill, thank you. You are certainly right about two way street. I keep hearing good things about High Water Sound. Good dealers should be supported even if they charge more. After all they have the right to and they need to keep their salespeople. Unfortunately this is not my path because I can't and won't be able to afford new that esoteric stuff I am interested in. But New York has its own economy, there are many people, including audiophiles, who can afford $30k amps easily. I wish those dealers well.
Salespeople have to earn your business...if they don't really give a crap about your audio needs and don't listen to you, then who cares about them? I walk into some local places and from maybe mentioning interest in a turntable get immediately hijacked into a sales rant involving how great something is from their point of view. And that thing is nearly always list price or more. I've seen items I actually am interested in displayed for months, and when I ask how it sounds (in this case a turntable) relative to others they sell I get, "uh...haven't heard it yet"...next visit months later same thing...my experience as an owner of a business dealing in sales of high expense things like convoluted lending or investment products was successful since I knew much more about the stuff than competitors and thus could work with the consumer to get things right, and my fees and pricing were generally less, so even if I didn't get a specific deal here and there the referral biz was so good I prospered. Duh...I also worked hard promoting my businesses, where audio "salons" are a joke regarding promotions. A nearby high end guitar shop recently had a packed house for a guitar maker's talk along with a brilliant musician doing a little show...last time Goodwin's featured live music? No clue as they have no mailing list.
To answer your question, you are wasting their time. What you think you should pay for any given item has nothing to do what the store needs to cover expenses and generate a profit.
On the other side of the coin, how would you react if your employer informed you they just received a qualified job application for your position and that applicant is willing to do your job for way less money. So now your employer wants to know if you’re amicable to a pay cut. Nice huh?
I think some may have misconstrued my internet comparison shopping. I search a specific product, typically by manufacturer and model number. More often than not , the search reveals a brick and mortar merchant with an E-commerce presence. There are two sites that invariably appear in my searches. Both are authorized dealers. One is only a few miles down the road from the McIntosh factory and the other is in Virginia. Both discount new merchandise, both have free delivery, one charges tax. Ironically the one in VA outsources some of his Mcintosh service to the one in NY. Both are readily available for a phone call or quick email response. Their quality of service has been exemplary. They both seem to have an inventory of “open boxes” where they can offer a lower than MSRP price. My last purchase was my MX-122. My local dealer was firm at $7000 plus tax and a delivery fee. He was expecting it to arrive the following week. I did my search, and wound up getting it in 2 days from the shop in NY for $5875 with shipping. While I appreciate the beautiful environment my local shop has built, I don’t feel obligated, in any way, to pay for the oriental rugs, wishing well fountain and leather recliners. At the end of the day those things stay in his store and I leave with only the item at MSRP. For the 15 to 20 minutes I’m in the store, I’d be just as content sitting on a metal folding chair. So, while I’ll still shop the local guy for sundries, I’ll continue comparison shopping the bigger ticket items.
@inna- the last dealer I used in New York was actually not based in New York, it was Bill Parish, of GTT Audio based in New Jersey. Interestingly, the geographic distance–– about an hour from my house in the lower Hudson Valley––was never a problem because Bill made house calls: he would bring equipment, come to troubleshoot, bring over manufacturers, provide loaners, etc. There was no obligation to buy something immediately and in one case, I knew out of the box that I did not like the sound of a particular piece of equipment compared to the unit I owned and said as much. One thing I liked was there was no salesmanship-- he let me make my own evaluations and respected my views. During the course of about a decade, I had never even been to Bill’s place, but he made plenty of trips to my place over the years we did business. (I visited him shortly before I left New York). I lost touch with Bill by the time I moved, but he provided an exceptional level of service. As to paying a premium, I don’t think I was charged more than I could have gotten any piece of equipment, new or used, on the open market. I was a good customer, but hardly his biggest fish. But there was enough volume over the years, with enough expensive gear, that the relationship was a positive for both of us.
For many years, starting in 1981?, I used David Wasserman at the Stereo Exchange- this was before David had a big, fancy shop-- he was basically a clearing house of used hi-end. I was treated fairly, David was not an audiophile and had no pretensions about it-- but we enjoyed a long, positive relationship. (There came a point where my interest in hi-fi led me to more esoteric stuff but I still stayed in touch-in fact, I called him recently just to chat-- he is now semi-retired, and has a small shop by appointment). The others- Andy, Lyric, etc. I did business with, but it didn’t stick -- Among the newer dealers, I thought very highly of Jeff at High Water Sound, though I never did any real business with him. At one point, I was hunting for vintage step-up transformers and he talked by phone for at least a 1/2 hour with me, largely about products he didn’t sell. My impression is, he is one of the ’good guys’-- I’m not going to make any moral judgments here- but on a purely self-interested basis, a relationship is a two way thing, and over the years, I suspect the dealers to whom I gave business rewarded that with service and opportunities that I might have otherwise missed. But, I do think it takes a dealer with some savvy, and a good sense of business relationships and how to maintain them. I’ve certainly encountered my share of dealers that who did not meet my expectations (I’m being charitable here) and they did not get continued business from me. There’s a lot more to this than salesmanship in my estimation. And it reflects my experience in other pursuits.
@david_ten "Are you suggesting your moral and ethical standards are 'the' standard? : )"
Not at all. But, I do believe that there are standards for moral and ethical behavior. Most of them widely held. This issue does not rise to that level. The shop is open for demos. There is no contract for purchase.
But you bring up a good point. If there is no standard or basis for moral and ethical behavior then all any of us are really doing is asserting our own moral standard....which is an oxymoron by the way....the net effect of which is that anything goes as long as it meets my own or your own personal standard.
In which case the end-point is the same. If the OP is within his own standard then who are we to say he's wrong? That's the slippery slope of of having no concrete moral standards.
I think it’s perfectly normal to shop around and definitely not embarrassing to discuss competitive prices with your local dealers.
It’s not your obligation to buy stuff, it’s the dealer’s job to sell you stuff.
Now let me be a bit tough on the B&M dealers. We’re not talking about cheap plastic no name toys from Ali express here. We’re talking about products that cost thousands and their MAP prices are fiercely protected by manufacturers to ensure every dealer makes a good profit. By good profit I mean 40% of the MAP price. Yes, on a $10k product your local dealer can make $4k. That’s kinda excessive if all the dealer did was talking to you for 10 minutes. So the dealer has to be prepared to either make a lot less on the item or have a lower chance of selling it.
Regarding internet retailers. When it comes to the brand names, online retailers are often at disadvantage because they can not advertise below MAP price and don’t have a face-to-face contact to negotiate a lower sale price. At the same time, they often have to pay sales tax just like B&M. Many brands refuse to open accounts to online retailers without physical locations. In order to make their deals attractive online retailers have to put a lot of effort in monitoring competition, analyzing which inventory to keep, where to acquire the inventory including used stuff, open boxes, etc., creating package deals, holiday sales, and much more. As a result of their hard work, instead of pocketing $4000 they make $400 from selling that same $10k item and yet manage to survive.
Now the question why can’t a B&M dealer survive by charging the same prices? Expensive rent? Not enough walk-ins? Bunch of inventory that doesn’t sell? Failure always has an explanation. All that has nothing to do with a type of business, that’s just a sign that the business is poorly managed.
Don’t get me wrong. Most of the time online retailers know little about the product, hardly can advise on anything or inspire a sale, but they are hard working people. On the contrary, I’ve seen B&M guys that know little about their products, don’t look inspiring and are just plain lazy. When lazy meets hard-working it’s destined to lose.
Someone mentioned Best Buy here. I noticed in the last few years they’ve reinvented themselves. They have a nice selection of cool innovative products, stuff you can’t see or touch anywhere else. Their prices match Amazon’s. I found myself enjoying the store again like 20 years ago. I have no problem buying from them and a peace of mind knowing that the price is right.
And final note on the brick and mortar. While many of them close, Amazon is looking to open brick and mortar locations. So is it a brick problem or a mortar problem? I think the problem is in the way old school B&M businesses are managed.
Anyway, I am someone on a tight budget with expensive taste so I'll have to buy used. Except maybe new tonearm and couple of cables and of course cartridge. But I don't need to audition them.
I would say that when it comes to supporting our locally owned businesses, I find it wrong to sample from one and then buy online. I am not going to claim that it is morally or ethically wrong as I would not think this discussion goes to that extreme. I would just find it thoughtfully wrong. These local Mom & Pop shops have set up their business in our communities to make our lives better. Part of that is making enough money so that they can stay open to benefit us. Of course prices are going to be a little higher to account for that benefit. I do not own anything outside the objects in my home so I believe there is no bias in my view. But I do recognize that those whom have invested significant funds in their communities need to be supported. I am personally willing to spend a little more locally to help keep them afloat. Of course if one is talking about thousands of dollars in price difference then that speaks for itself. But if we are talking about a hundred or two dollars to have someone who will take care of me in the midst of sour times, then it is highly worth it. My 2 cents.
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