Could I be a Retail Wretch?
I started a discussion here this morning to get some feedback on whether an external DAC would make an appreciable improvement over an internal processor’s DAC. During the discussion, I said that I typically visit a local audio dealer, to experience the equipment and then, comparison shop to find the best deal. The particular dealer I was referring to, emails me weekly, sends postcards monthly and catalogs quarterly. It’s always with an invitation to “see and hear the difference”. So I visit, and occasionally buy some small ticket items. But, when it comes to spending thousands on nationally available equipment, I don’t feel any obligation to limit my shopping to that one location.
When I shared my buying habits with the forum, I received responses that said using any brick and mortar stores to demo and then buying elsewhere “cuzz” it’s cheaper is just plain wrong…
I was surprised at that statement. I’m a value oriented person. I enjoy quality items. But I search for them at the best price - is that wrong? If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated?
Terry9 Don’t just throw a stone, run away and say “Goodbye”. If your self respect is so fragile, that you feel the need to pay more for something than you need to, that’s fine. It actually reminds me of a line in Ayn Rand’s, The Fountainhead- “It's easier to donate a few thousand to charity and think oneself noble than to base self-respect on personal standards of personal achievement.” |
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The customer that took home my gear had already decided to buy the one on audiogon....if it sounded good. He didn't come in out of the blue just to see what I had. After he got his amps in from the seller in California I got an email form the seller to ask if I had an owners manual for those amplifiers...obviously for the buyer in Denver. I was surprised he didn't ask me to go help the guy put his tubes in. . I think that dealers are on the way out. Guys used to come in to my shop or my room at the RMAF and fall in love with the sound....then they go on line and see what other people think. No one can make a decision on their own...lets see what the reviews think...I have a friend with a good ear. Some how we are weeding out the really good products in favor of the really good advertisers...A little sad... |
Great topic. I would love to be all warm and fuzzy about dealers. I walk into my local dealer and they act as if I am imposing on them just to listen to something. Dealers need to understand that they are selling high dollar products and you might take a few months to finally pull the trigger on a sale. I'm sure it's frustrating for them though. |
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Terry9 You completely misunderstood the post you’re referring to. But, I accept your opinion of my behavior. And, I will continue my belief that someone who is willing to pay $7000 for an item, that sells elsewhere for $5800, (because someone who is not willing to negotiate price but, has spent a few minutes demonstrating a product to them) is a schmuk. If you’re willing to pay $1200 to talk with someone for 20 minutes… call me, I’m negotiable ;-) soundsrealaudio. I have the utmost respect for any business person who interacts with retail shoppers. I understand your dismay and resentment with the customer you recounted. It appears you were certainly diligent, but, why did you loose the sale? After your generous interaction with the shopper, I have to conclude their decision was based on price. Webrooming and Showrooming are retail shopping tactics that aren’t fleeting whims of a younger generation. Both have become a growing trend of tech-savvy educated consumers. And while retailers may view this with disdain, They need to develop strategies to compete in this environment. I believe the strongest defense for their longevity is negotiation. I thank all the responders for their opinions. Thanks to those who accept or condone my shopping behavior and those who’s opinion find it “sleazy” “low class” or even “a scumbag move’... shameful monikers I’ll wear to the bank. ;-)
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" Well terry9 1. I wouldn’t have spent $5800 for a $7000 list item online, if that item wasn’t returnable. Plus, it’s the perfect audition, in my room, with my gear. No loss, great demo. 2. I audition that equipment and decide it's not for me. I buy something else instead. Agreed. Do you see a difference? I don’t. "You asked about a store demo. Now you change your tune to online. See a difference? You asked for my opinion of your behaviour. I think it's sleazy. Just plain sleazy. |
Actually you are much worse then you think......although I had a guy come in and wanted to audition a 10K amp. He did listen and liked it. I let him take it home to try it in his home in his system and apparently it sounded good so he brought it back and bought the one he had seen on line. That is enough to urge me to close my business. Not sure what you do for a living but a little respect would be nice.... |
@elizabeth, I agree, with perhaps the inclusion of LA. I think wherever there’s a very diverse cultural demographic, the practice of haggling is inherently ingrained. @oddiofyl I was trying to avoid the use of any business names in a post about pricing policies, that might bias anyone’s opinion. The reference I made to that one store was only geographical in nature, I chose it because it is pretty much central to the other shops in that 25 block radius. But, if it put an uptick in floor traffic - great! @gluson Do a search for “hifi shops manhattan”. There are more in Manhattan, but Broadway and 8th Street is the center of the “walking distance” radius I was referring to. |
I just looked at the google maps hoping to see where the stores are but it does not easily show. I found a bunch of Indian restaurants, though. Audio shops may really need to up their advertising game. True, it was only by pointing to NoHo Audio and then zooming on the map hoping to see names written and not specifically googling for stores. |
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@mickeyb - I enjoy good conversation and debate. And, I always appreciate and respect the opinions of all contributors. I can understand how you may have missed some of the facts earlier in the post, where I discussed that I knew exactly what I wanted to buy, I was prepared to buy that day, I asked if the shop if they would sell lower than list, I was told no and I bought the exact same item, at a lower price hours later. But, what I can’t understand is how you, as a contractor, consider people who shop your itemized bid to be “low rent”, have “No class” and their behavior “a scumbag move”. When I issue an RFP or open bid request, the purpose of itemization is to compare competitive bids, line item to line item. That’s how I can determine how bids compare to one another on both item and price. It’s one the most common practice in American business “shopping”. If your business is faced more towards residential sales, I think you should expect your prospects to pursue a few competitive bids. |
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Sorry, I’m another vote for it being "low class" to use a hi-fi shop to demo stuff you plan to buy elsewhere cheaper. For one thing, I have to admit flat out that cheapskates annoy me.(I don’t mean someone who can’t afford something; I mean someone who can afford something, but is always more motivated to save money over caring about integrity, or even just being realistic about how this affects others). I’ve never been one to want to haggle over price. Or who ordered what on the restaurant bill. In my view: a hi-fi store owner has had to pay all sorts of overhead, and money for his inventory, and has had to do (if it’s a good shop) all sorts of work creating a good demo environment. Plus he will often be doing work arranging and setting up various equipment combinations for customers. And...he has done all this because he is trying to earn a living. I just could not bring myself to go in to a hi fi store, use that person’s store space, inventory and time while planning to buy elsewhere because I can get the item cheaper. I wouldn’t want anyone to do that to me; I try not to do it to other people. I respect they have to make a living and that they have provided me with a service I would not get if left to my own devices. For me, this means being able to actually demo equipment, often in various configurations, sometimes in my own home before buying. (As a long time audiophile, I frankly don’t get much other ’added value’ from a salesman’s ’experience.’ I know enough about what I like and want and don’t need help "putting a system together." Simply being able to demo the equipment I want is enough added value). When I go to an audio store I make it absolutely clear what my intentions are. If I am just dropping in to browse, say, a new store, that’s what I’ll tell the salesman. Does he want to demo some stuff for me? Sure, I’ll listen. He does so knowingly, hoping I’ll hear something that might inspire me to buy. If I’m there because I’ve found out that store has an item I’m seriously interested in possibly purchasing, I lay that out. Sometimes I’ll hear the item I came to hear, but there might be something else of interest in the store. Maybe even something out of my price range. If I really want to hear it, I will make sure to be honest with the salesman: "Look, I came here because of X speakers, and those others there are frankly beyond my budget. But if they are currently hooked up, would it be any trouble to hear them?" The salesman can say "sorry, no." But a wise salesman will allow an honest customer to listen even out of his price range. First, it gains good will. Second, you never know.... For instance, I went to demo some Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers at a local dealer. I really enjoyed them and the dealer mentioned he had the bigger floor standing Perspective model. Once he told me how much they were I told him they were more than I was looking to spend. But, even though he said that, he gave me a demo of the Perspectives. Well, good move, turned out I fell in love with their sound and now HAD to have those. So now, my budget had expanded and he had the possibility of a bigger sale. He upsold me, and that was fine by me. I did a few long demos of those speakers to make sure I was willing to spend that much. I was, but I let the salesman know I now needed more time to save up some money for the more expensive speakers. During the time I was saving, a pair of perspectives in great condition came on the market, second hand, for 1/2 what it was going to cost me buying them new from the dealer. I could easily have snapped those up and never gone back to the dealer. But, sorry, that just isn’t how I want to do business. If I used a dealers time and his inventory extensively and said I’d buy, then I’m holding to that. So...I’m still saving :) I suppose depending on the reader’s personality, you’ll either see that as some form of trying to maintain some integrity....or being a "sucker." Of course none of the above commits me to buying from some salesman just because I’ve entered his place and he’s demoed something for me.I’ve had some crappy salesmen experiences and they "lost any possible sale" for it. But in general, I wish to reduce the level of b.s. in my dealing with people - from both directions. To that end, I try to be as clear and honest as possible when dealing with hi-end stores - if I’m serious about buying, they will know up front. If I’m browsing, they’ll know up front. If I can afford X but would love to hear Y just to hear Y....they’ll know that up front. Then it’s up to them how they want to proceed. It’s a tough business. I just can’t begrudge them their earning a living, and if I decide to buy, I’m not going to haggle away their profit margin.I don’t see a lot of rich guys running hi end audio stores. |
It’s low rent to use this guys time, knowledge and equipment and not even ask him to price match. He values you as a customer and you do not reciprocate. I’m a GC and people ask me for itemized bids just so they can shop their job out and have my numbers as a reference. No class. What is wrong with people? It’s pathetic that people think this type of behavior is even slightly legit when years ago you would’ve admitted it was a scumbag move. |
oddiofyl, We actually had fun there. It was not me who was interested but the one I was with. Bonuses are coming in January or February (I forgot) so he will be back and will not be shopping around much. To add a twist, said amplifier may be cheaper in the store than on the Internet. I am not sure they offer discounts on the Internet. |
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"There are 2 shops close to me on Long Island and 4 within walking distance in Manhattan." How far is "walking distance"? Shopping and selling in Manhattan has slightly different reality than shipping from a warehouse in Kansas. Some of the expenses are higher and business model may be aimed more towards people who shop in a different way than you do. In the end, you may be happy you outsmarted the dealer and he may not care about it that much. Win-win situation. A month or so ago, a dealer with showrooms full of nice/expensive products (along with less esoteric, for sure) responded to a seriously-interested youngish prospective buyer with "If I could get a dollar for every person who came in, got interested, and then said he would be back...". He did not seem dismayed, he simply stated the fact in some way. He actually offered significantly lower price on a $5000 amplifier. |
@oddiofly - I’m not being factious. Please be explicit and explain to me how you perceive my interaction with a retail salesperson has wasted their time and resources. It may be a difference between urban and rural shopping. I live in Manhattan and East Hampton, Long Island. There are 2 shops close to me on Long Island and 4 within walking distance in Manhattan. Your dealer may display prices in their high end audio rooms, but that’s not the norm and none of these 6 locations do. I have never seen a crowd at any of the 6 shops and more often than not, there’s no more that a half dozen shoppers in any listening room. So, if the only way to find a price is to engage a salesperson - please tell me what resources I’m depleting and how I’m wasting that salesperson’s time? |
@oddifyll - The genesis of this post was my question, which was in regard to a local retailer I shop at. They discount lower priced items ($500 or less) but don’t discount the more expensive name brands… “If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated?” Many responses assumed that I hadn’t made an attempt to negotiate, which, of course I had. The fact that I knew the item I was interested in was available at a lower price and this particular retailer was not willing to sell below Manufacture’s SUGGESTED Retail Price, I had no feeling of obligation to make the purchase. My sarcastic (and I apologize if it offended you) suggestion for dealer support, was intended as an ironic parody for those who want me to believe, it’s every audiophile’s obligation to sustain their local dealer at all costs. This shouldn’t be interpreted as “a slap in the face to any good dealer out there…” but a kick in the pants, to the ones who don’t quickly adapt to the buying channels of webrooming and showrooming and develop a strategy to compete in this environment. As to my iPhone, I get a pretty enticing discounted offer from my carrier every 2 years. |
About a year ago I auditioned some very well known speakers at a local store. Since the dealer had been so accommodating and helpful I decided to buy the speakers, which sell for $3500 everywhere, including online, from the local dealer. Imagine my surprise when he quoted me a price of $3000. This was not for a demo pair either, he had to order me a new pair. So it is at least worth asking about the price, as dealers want to make a sale and you never know. |
The funny thing is good dealers don’t have to charge MSRP , and many times don’t if you ask. I bet you paid MSRP for your iPhone and any other Apple stuff you own.... In my industry the MAP price is often only a few % off the MSRP, sometimes the MSRP is the price no matter where you buy it. I do love it though when a potential customer of ours gets a "good deal" from another vendor and that item gets drop shipped and then they call us to install it.... that's the best !!! We install anything you buy from us at no charge, if you buy it elsewhere you will pay us $500 to $1000 to install... or more. Where's the savings? Your last post in addition to being extremely sarchastic is a slap in the face to all the good dealers out there that work hard for their customers. |
This might be the time to start a local Audio Dealer fund raiser. What better way to assure the longevity of our local retailers than by giving them our continuous support. For just $19 dollars a month. just 63 cents a day, you can be a savior. You’ll be able to visit your local dealer anytime, during business hours, sample any piece of equipment and all without any guilt, because you are a member of the Audio Sustainability Society. As a member you’ll receive courteous, knowledgable, service with value-added decor and perhaps a generous selection of mints at the register. Of course you will still need to purchase at list price. Your membership fee won’t be deducted at the time of purchase as it is considered a donation for preservation. To extend the value-added experience, retailers could place donation boxes outside their front doors, for when they aren’t open. Just imagine the joy we can bring to every local audio retailer - when they realize that their community will support them and they will be able to survive charging full list price! |
Exactly, added value... when I had a driver fail my dealer did all the legwork to get me a warranty replacement ....they took care of me a year after the sale. I live in the Boston area, 20 years ago their were dealers everywhere around here, now most are gone. Amazon, eBay, online grey market all contributed to their disappearance |
You write "If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated" Don't you think being able to audition and talk to a knowledgable rep is added value. I enjoy being able to go to my local store so I shop there hoping they don't go out of business because other people are just using them and giving their money to anyone online that hasn't provided any service |
Like everyone, I want a good deal. However I also value personal service. I"m looking at my rack of equipment and there's only one item I didn't buy new locally . That item is a Magnum Dynalab MD102 that I bought direct from MD after I sent my MD 90 in for service. They took my unit in trade and I was into the 102 for cheap. My amps were used but everything else was new and I paid less than I would have on line. My last few purchases were with Audio Visual Therapy in NH where theres no state sales tax. Great guys to deal with .When I bought my speakers they pulled out several amps, including a pair of amps that I owned along with setting up a sub with them. They spent time, were not pushy , and it was a fair price, not to mention saving $120 in tax . But most importantly they spent time with me so they earned my patronage and loyalty. |
There was a good independent musical instrument store on Santa Monica Blvd. in W. Los Angeles named West L.A. Music, which everyone preferred to the Guitar Center on Sunset in Hollywood. They did a good business, and thrived. But the owner finally couldn't turn down GC's offer, and sold the business to them. GC immediately closed down the store; they just wanted to eliminate the competition, of course. GC tried to do the same with Professional Drum Shop on Vine St. (opened in 1959!), whose clientele includes all the L.A. studio drummers (they make Jim Keltner his calfskin heads) and other professionals. Owners Stan and Jerry Keyawa resisted, thank God. The best drum shop in the world! |
Let’s see if that profit growth will be enough and sustained. They are running on borrowed time and money at this point. Obviously, restructuring plan is betting on expansion. It will be interesting to revisit this topic a year or two from now. All available at the guaranteed lowest price!For whatever it is worth, it seems the problem was not the price but interest in general. https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2018/05/10/electric-guitar-sales/ |
FYI - June 6, 2018 "Despite the financial challenges, the retailer plans to open six more Guitar Centers and complete two store remodels, including a significant overhaul of its flagship and largest-volume store on Sunset Boulevard to be completed by the fall. It also plans to add up to 30 Music & Arts stores, smaller outlets that sell and rent band and orchestra equipment. They also provide lessons on strings, horns and other instruments played in schools — some 1.5 million last year alone. The division, with more than 175 locations, has seen a recent return to profit growth, company executives say." |
Guitar Center was a public company in 1997 with 28 stores that started to expand quickly across the country. In 2007 Bain Capital, a private equity firm took GC private with a grossly over-estimated value and highly leveraged buyout of just over 2 billion dollars. The debt service would have been a strain in a normal growth environment. Unfortunately, the timing was on the cusp of the greatest recession since 1929 and the music industry just stalled. In 2014 Ares took over GC in a 500 million dollar debt for equity swap and there’s been some noise about taking GC public again. The problems GC endured weren’t the result of a poor marketing strategy but, simply a matter of someone dramatically over-paying for the company with borrowed money. Their “come sample and enjoy” environment never wavered. And, till this day there are trays of guitar picks throughout the guitar area, choices of drumsticks in the drum rooms and keyboards with headphones for anyone to enjoy. All available at the guaranteed lowest price! |
"In the case of the guitar center, it is them stabbing everyone else. Because they can." Maybe they cannot... "Sales have fallen off sharply in recent years, which, while a problem on its own, is compounded by the fact that brand finds itself sitting under $1 billion in outstanding debt." "Moody’s warned investors that the brand was facing an imminent default with its bondholders. That immediate disaster was held off with an emergency loan renegotiation of $615 million in debt — a relief, perhaps, of the most pressing concern of default." To be continued... |
There’s no denying that the buying strategy of Showrooming is real. It evolved from a technology that will continue to grow and continue to change the way we shop. I understand that some consider it a questionable consumer behavior that can have a negative effect on retail structures and competitive relationships. But, if Showrooming is a known and present consumer behavior, isn’t it incumbent upon the business to respond with a competitive strategy? |
Everyone has different life experience and a different perspective of right and wrong. In my late teens, I worked for a HiFi chain, later I have worked as a manufacturer, a manufacturers rep and have owned my own HiFi Retail Store. If I spend time at a dealer and am going to purchase an item that they sold me on, I will certainly give them a chance to match a price or see how close they can come. For me, the retailer has earned this. I have however been to retailers that their goal is to sell what they have.... period. Being old and educated for decades in Audio, it is easy to spot someone selling rather than listening to your interest and trying to help. I don't feel obligated to these salesmen. |
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About a year ago, mostly out of curiosity, I asked Gryphon distributor for a current price list thru email. Next day I got the complete price list and also another email from a local dealer inviting me to come listen to Gryphon. Now that's different, they invited me. So if you come to a dealer and say that you have no intention to buy anything at the moment and you are still invited to audition that's alright. No, I still didn't go to listen to Gryphon because I was not going to buy anything but I could have. |
Guitar Center is an American music retailer chain. It is the largest company of its kind with 269 locations in the United States. They dominate the industry already. So they also dominate pricing. Not sure what they bring to the discussion. In the case of the guitar center, it is them stabbing everyone else. Because they can. That's what the computer station was about, IMO. |
