Clock vs Streamer advice

I wouldn’t bother with the Bricasti streamer. Their DACs are very good though. 
Depending on your budget, you can pickup a used Lumin U1 or U2 (the big boy vetsion, not the mini). Or look for a used Aurender N200. With a good USB cable into the Bricasti that will be the combo to beat. 

Thanks for the advice, so you are suggesting a better streamer will outweigh a computer->clock->dac?

I believe so. There’s no going around the noise the laptop generates. Not optimized for streaming. Too many things running, fan, etc.

On top of it all, it’s inconvenient. A good streamer should be all you need. If you feel the need to add a reclocker, you can tackle that later. 

Awesome, thank you for the advice. 

Keep the computer outta your system at all costs.  It’s a hot mess of noise and poor performance. 

I wish I could recommend the Mutec Nano to you but unless you are going to seriously upgrade with an outboard LPS you will be disappointed . Sent mine back. 
Keep it simple with a good dedicated streamer from Lumin, Rose, etc. 
you can always upgrade your Bricasti with a network card and be good to go at a very reasonable price. 

@zpatenaude37 Definitely move away from the computer as others said. There are three areas that a quality streamer focuses on that largely results in the quality of its performance.
 

First is noise reduction, which is actually two areas. The first is in the power supply, and better units like Aurender will implement high quality linear power supplies to reduce DC ripple. The second area will be in the hardware architecture and isolation characteristics, which keep EMI and RFI out of the chassis and away from different components inside the chassis. People really underestimate what that can do to the sound. With both of these covered, a delicate digital signal will have more resolution, a lower noise floor, and a deeper, wider, more engaging soundstage. 

The third area is clocking, where the better the clock, the more in focus the image is. It’s very similar to photography. Where you can use a subpar lens and get an image that seemingly is focused, you can then compare it to a high quality lens and see what the subpar lens is unable to capture. Or it’s like a lens that is just slightly out of focus vs one that is not. The dynamics improve, edges are a little less hazy, and overall the presentation is much more palpable. 

Given your components and speakers, which are quite revealing, you ought to be investing in a higher quality streamer than the ones you mention. The streamer is your source, similar to a turntable without the phono stage. In your system setup, I could easily see a $5-7K turntable outfit and $3-5K phono stage. You’ve got a $9K DAC, and will benefit from a $5-7K streamer. 

Being an authorized Aurender dealer, the Aurender N200 by audphile1 is a great suggestion. I haven’t yet come across another streamer in its price range that sounds better (I get a number of streamers in trade). Even if not the N200, I suggest you save a bit more or wait for a higher priced unit to come on the used market. That said, warranties count for something, as streamers are inherently computers, and who hasn’t had computer problems? Many times it’s worth buying new just so that you’re not stuck with a lemon in the long run. 

+1 used Aurrender

@zpatenaude37 

@audphile1 can buy this and then he will sell you his N200. Win win. 😁

🤤

tempting but not quiet there yet….

@blisshifi thank you so much for the informative reply. I will try to demo the N200. 

Aurenders sound great but the app is not good if you want to stream classical music. Also you can't at present use Roon with an Aurender if you think you might want to go the Roon way. 

Ya, I'm not a huge fan of the Aurender app. It's organization was good, but the connectivity could be a hassle. I'm currently using Roon, and I like it, but it's not a deal breaker for me whether or not I use it. 

@mazian

Which app you found best to browse classical music?

Another vote for buying a better streamer and the one with a clock input is a definite plus! 

@lalitk

I tried apps associated with streamers from Elac, Cambridge Audio, Auralic, iFi Zen and Aurender but none of them was as good as the native Qobuz app. I was unable to find any way of using the Qobuz app with any of those streamers except via Airplay but when doing that I could not stream in Hi Res. I resisted subscribing to Roon for years but eventually succumbed and Roon is easily the best way of managing streamed albums, not perfect but the best. To achieve that I ended up buying an Antipodes CX streamer which was both Roon Ready and Roon Core in the same unit. The sound quality is excellent, on par with an Aurender N200, but not cheap and there is also the ongoing payment for Roon. Is it worth it? This you have to judge for yourself.

blisshifi

1,011 posts

01-30-2024 at 11:21pm 

…

I suggest you save a bit more or wait for a higher priced unit to come on the used market. That said, warranties count for something, as streamers are inherently computers, and who hasn’t had computer problems? Many times it’s worth buying new just so that you’re not stuck with a lemon in the long run.

Or the short run.
When you run with the expensive streamer camp, buying used is putting a lot of faith in the in-house software and the parts (from the PCB on up) not malfunctioning. If something goes wrong and an RMA is necessary, out-of-warranty can get costly in time, parts, labor.

Agree w new + warranty, had an “inexpensive” CA CXN V2 and was getting faint crackling static sound from left channel through Klipsch Fortes, high sensitivity speakers. Tried a number of diagnostics and fixes with CA support, DAC chip suspect. Upgraded source in that system, moved the CXN to system two, less sensitive Focals, but still static.  One call to Crutchfield, two weeks later, brand new CXN, no crackling static! Problem solved. Had registered CXN w CA for extra year on warranty.  Have no idea if you could pull DAC chip and replace, but what if that not the gremlin? New + warranty or used with brand where warranty transfers.

@OP. Melco's app is not great either. As you have a quality DAC, and I'm working on the premise that it is USB equipped, you do have the potential to run Roon straight into that DAC. However, you need a purpose built computer to get the best results.

Used Lumin, absolutely!

I have had an Innuos Zen Mini and it’s LPS since 2019. I cannot compare it to any other streamers since it is my first and only. Innuos Sense, the on board streaming platform, is pretty darn good. I use Qobuz as a streaming service that feeds seamlessly into Sense. I also have many hundreds of CDs that I ripped into the Zen Mini’s hard drive. Good luck!

+1 for the Innuos products. The Innuos products are easy to use, sound great and the Innuos Sense app is rock solid and very user friendly. Roon is also supported, but the Innuos Sense app is just as good and IMHO sounds better than Roon.  As you go up the Innuos product line, the power supplies and noise isolation improve to concur with the on point comments from @blisshifi regarding the importance of power supply quality and noise. Ditch the computer!

OP @zpatenaude37  mentioned he currently uses Roon. I love Roon. And that is why I didn't get Aurender. I have been playing around with squeeze and yes it sounds a wee bit better than Roon, but it is not nice to deal with- frustrating compared to Roon. Almost begs the question if I am going to futz with this squeeze app everytime I want to change a song etc. I might as well have put all this streaming money into a turntable setup and got up and changed records. Maybe sense is much better, I have't tried it. But eventually squeeze could get better, and Aurender could get Roon, one day. 

I guess Aurender is close to being Roon compatible. I just called 2 different shops, and this weekend I'll be doing an a/b test with an Aurender N200 and the Melco. 

Innuos Fan here. The sense app is excellent. I have the Pulse Mini powered by a Zen Mini LPS. Use Co-Ax to my Pre/DAC combo. I couldn't be happier.

@mazian

Thanks for sharing your feedback. I have the luxury of toggling between ROON and Conductor and didn’t find much difference as far as search results for classical albums or artists. Since most of the classical composition shared by various artists / composers, I pay close attention to key words while searching for classical albums. I still prefer Conductor app over ROON for optimal SQ and its ability to keep my rips/downloads separate from Qobuz stream. Conductor also allows me to create folders and neatly put them on menu bar for easy access. Whereas ROON merges everything in one library (not my personal preference). I do agree, Qobuz native app is pretty good and I use it frequently when I am away from my main system.

I don’t have any major grievances with the conductor app.
Roon is more advanced in few areas - it slices and dices, consolidates and filters better than the Conductor. It also provides an actual bitrate of the album in the search results as opposed to “HR” or “Max” label that you get with the Conductor. But none of these missing features are essential and they don’t impact the sound quality. They’re just there as part of an enchanted feature set. Nice to have  

@zpatenaude37 let us know how that comparison goes.

👍

I briefly checked out a Melco N1ZH/2 review, and the reviewer’s opinion was the ethernet out "player" was the best connector, and I believe with the N200 it is USB? I suppose for an apples to apples comparison those are what must be connected for each server to perform at its peak.

But then what does one do with apps- conductor for Aurender, and what for Melco? I am thinking it would be easy for a salesperson to steer the auditioner in a particular direction. It sure isn’t like a/b testing a pre-amp, is it?

edit: Qobuz for both perhaps? 

Looks like Melco has a USB DAC-dedicated output. So I would compare N200 and Melco using USB out. 
Make a note though….Qobuz sounds better than Tidal with the Aurender N200. Not sure about Melco. To @mclinnguy’s point…the key is to use what works best for each streamer. Could be Roon for Melco. I don’t know…

All PC’s but Mac lapotps in particular have a couple of issues related to power and grounding. Get a USB isolator and consider keeping your laptop charger off while listening to music OR move it outside your power conditioner clean area OR get a linear supply.

For the power supply issue, the good news is you can validate if this is an issue or not simply by playing music with/without the laptop charger plugged in. I’d wait until your laptop was down to about ~ 50% charged though. That way the charger is working at it’s hardest and therefore making the most possible noise.

Ironically, if you put your laptop on a different circuit the USB isolator becomes even more important.  Well, this depends on the DAC, but sad to say too many modern DACs still don't have galvanic isolation built in.

https://amzn.to/3UlFRqU

zpatenaude37 OP

28 posts

01-31-2024 at 02:41pm 

I guess Aurender is close to being Roon compatible. 
 

What is the source of this information?

Melco’s Ethernet out sounds much better than it’s USB. Great filtering too..

@audphile1 

All we know it’s in the works and newer generation Aurender will be compatible as Roon endpoint. You still need to source another piece of hardware to run as a Roon Core. Personally, anything off the shelf NUC or mass produced laptop to run Roon core will be a non-starter for me. I will not likely try Roon on my N30SA until Aurender comes out with a customized solution to run Roon Core 😊

@audphile1 not a real source I guess. I called Goodwins Audio in Massachusetts and am doing a demo with their N200. I believe he used the word "soon" when referring to Aurender and Roon. I am not sure if he knows more or less than anyone else. 

@lalitk I’m a Roon user. I still have an active subscription but not using it anymore in my main system since I switched to Aurender. I also heard about Roon integration being “in the works” but haven’t heard it from an official and reliable source.
As to trying Roon….I was thinking about how Aurender designers can integrate Roon endpoint capabilities. I struggle to envision how, when Roon is enabled, the processing of the data stream can remain true to what the Conductor app/OS is doing. My assumption is that Roon will have to be enabled and by doing so the Conductor processing will be turned off. Meaning less processing, no caching.
I hope I’m wrong. But if I’m right, the device you will be running your Roon core on will be the least of your problems. It’s unlikely to make any difference. The conductor is what we’ll continue using for critical listening. That’s my prediction. And it is also what I believe to be Aurender’s main driving factor for delaying and potentially may be never implementing Roon ready functionality. I’ll be glad if I am wrong though because I really love the rich feature set offered by Roon.

@zpatenaude37 got it. 

“the device you will be running your Roon core on will be the least of your problems. It’s unlikely to make any difference.”

@audphile1 

I hope you are right. That’s not been my experience with other Roon ready devices. Maybe Aurender can keep bitstream as faithful and exquisite through Roon as they have managed to do so through Conductor app. We will see! 

ROOM Couldn't handle my library 

Innous Sense App in my Pulsar can

Loving it!

Great not having to pay $$$ to Roon

@phishhhhh4 I don't have to pay Roon any $$$, anymore.

What did you use before the Pulsar? can you share some comparisons? 

@audphile1 @zpatenaude37 Aurender has already implemented Roon integration, but to date it is only to allow Aurender be a Roon endpoint. This means a separate Roon core is still required. To enable the Aurender to be a Roon endpoint, users just need to go to the “streaming” panel in the Conductor app. 

My apologies... Roon integration seems to be disabled at this time, or it is specific to certain Aurender units. I was using the Conductor app in January and saw the feature in the settings, but as I use my N30SA now I see it is no longer there. Perhaps this was enabled for beta users and dealers, or perhaps I saw it when I last used the new Aurender AP20. In either case, it looks like this has not yet been publicly rolled out.

Juan…yeah we’ll wait :)

@blisshifi

Juan, I am certainly not holding my breath for ROON..LOL!

Did you ever experimented with external clock on your N30SA? I have been on a roll with ‘clock’ cables for past 3 months. It’s been so much fun learning and splitting hairs at the same time. Who would thought a clock cable can be so impactful for overall audio fidelity. All of my cables were under $1K, from $150 and up. The latest one, SOtM dCBL BNC 50ohms cable is freakin amazing. I am hearing significant uplift in terms of textural cues, a broader soundstage, more air, amazingly lush and balanced tonality. There is this deeper depth, low end slam and definition without sacrificing any detail. One of my favorite tracks, If You Go by Shirley Horn. Truly a reference track to showcase your system. And, listen to Somewhere Over The Rainbow by Tony Overwater_Yuri Honing…the tenor sax gives me goosebumps each time I cue up this track.

Kudos to Aurender, for including Master Clock option on their top tier streamers.

@lalitk I have not, though I hope to get an MC10 in my hands for demo this quarter. I’ve heard the performance improves even if only using it with the  N30SA and nothing else.

As another fun evaluation, I’ll also have the new Synergistic Research Voodoo server/streamer in a few weeks and will be able to compare that to the N30SA. Should be exciting!

@blisshifi 

Voodoo vs N30SA should be an interesting comparison. I heard noticeable improvement on N20 with external clock which prompted me to pursue N30SA. I am also awaiting on custom data cable in next few weeks. And lastly, the fuse upgrade in my N30SA once the data cable fully broken-in. 

@lalitk Where did you get the custom data cable? It has been on my list to build one for myself as I made a custom power umbilical. The SR Master Fuse is quite good in the N30SA. Hope that’s what you swing for!

@blisshifi 

If you don’t mind, let’s circle back on data cable. This is an experimental project on both sides and I would like to first see if this cable would make any audible improvements. I went through considerable trouble to source special connectors and the wire that is touted to be next level In digital data transfer. I will gladly share more info once I had a chance to compare with stock data cable. 

Did you hear audible improvement with your custom power umbilical? 

As far as fuse goes, my go to reference is HiFi Tuning Supreme Cu. 

I used Roon before getting my Pulsar

Given the nature of my music library I was one of a small number of users that Roon could not handle.

I used a nucleus + with my FLAC library on my NAS

Roon would always hang up between tracks, search, etc

I added memory to the Nucleus at Roon supports advice but it did not help 

I was worried about where to go if not Roon-when it works it is an excellent product.

I am thrilled to discover the Innuos Sense app is just as good at what I need it for as Roon.

My biggest knock on Roon is it's support system.

It can be very difficult to address technical issues by posting to a message board and then email back and forth . It can take days to get a reply.

I'm also not happy with the time and $$$ engaging that system led to getting the answer I was looking for as to why Roon was plagued with performance issues for me.

It took 2 yrs for them to finally tell me "well it's your library sorry"

I then asked if they would refund the cost of the nucleus +, added memory (at their advice) and my subscription fees. I was told they would not refund me.

I've never seen any info about Roon not being able to handle certain libraries. I felt that should translate into a refund for me

Anyway I'm glad to be free of them ...still gets me worked up 

First time I've thought of it for awhile

The Sense App is great as is my Pulsar. I nightly recommend both

@phishhhhh4 thanks for the response. It was actually the nucleus vs. pulsar sound comparison I was inquiring about, not so much about the whole Roon customer service experience. But now that vented a bit I hope you feel better 😉

I assume you prefer the sound of the Pulsar w sense compared to the Nucleus w Roon. Are you able to describe the attributes in which it is preferable to you? 

Hard to answer as I have different amps now so no real side by side.