Clock vs Streamer advice

@zpatenaude37 I had the exact same experience with the conductor app.  It drove me nuts!  I have AT&T fiber optic internet service and the ethernet cable going from my router to the A20.  No other connection issues in my home over the Wi-Fi.  The A20 was the only component using a cable.  About 3 months ago I picked up a dCS Bartok and the issue was much worse with their mosaic app.  It would not only lose connection but instead of reconnecting in a few seconds, I would often have to close out the app several times before ever reconnecting.  It would eventually show the device like it does when you first set up the system.  It would also do something weird where if I paused the music for 30min or more and then come back and open the app and press play it would stop after a few seconds and skip to the next song.  I feel like this is an issue with our networks/routers but I am an IT idiot so had no idea what to do.  My digital journey took me back to separates today.  I had the Bluesound Node 2i for a few years and never had one single connection issue with the BluOS app.  I got their new Node Nano to stream into my new DAC and same as before..works perfectly.  Wish I had an answer but you aren't alone!

Often, the reaction to new software is negative. It is different from what you were using and it is very counter intuitive. The Conductor app is widely praised, while not the be-all or end-all… very good. As you get used to it, it becomes easy to use and it is becoming better and better.

I wound expect the n200 to sound better based on cost differential.  You may want to look at Small Green Computer (i5, i7, i9) with the Bricasti rendering card as a more cost effective solution.  I’m currently using an SGC i5 w/4tb ssd interfaced via Ethernet cable into a Bricasti M1 S2. The solution performs very well has great sound staging, imaging and detail.  Great option if you use Roon and need to define multiple end points and want to seamlessly interface a personal music collection with a streaming service like Qobuz.

@zpatenaude37

As far as Conductor App, stable as ROCK in my system. Unable to maintain connectivity is indicative of unstable WiFi network or perhaps a setting in Conductor app. Have Aurender run a diagnostic check…there is a solution for this!

I don’t have these issues with the conductor app. It’s 100% stable for me. There’s a default action you can pick when adding a song to the queue. I usually have add to end. Then I go back after I’m done adding songs or just let the queue get there on its own. But it never disconnects for me. Very strange.

As to adding a network card, go under the assumption that it will be a competitor to a $1500-$2000 streamer…some but not all. 

@audphile1 thank you for the input. I may wait and save a bit more for the N200. I have been pretty concerned about spending the $1500 when I can't demo it. And I was not very smart with my demo. The N1Z only has USB, and the N200 dealer let me borrow a $2500 MIT SPDIF cable. It was easy to just switch inputs on the DAC quickly by using just spdif on N200 and USB on N1Z. I didnt even try USB on the N200. 

I also can't stand the Aurender app, but I'll live with it. Every single time I went to pick a new song, it disconnected, so I had to go back and find where I was on the playlist. It was the same bullshit with my N100H. The guy at Goodwins Audio said its the same for him too. 

@zpatenaude37 if not too late…I’d like to chime in.
I have done a pretty extensive comparison in my system between the Bricasti M3 network card used as a Roon endpoint and the Bricasti M3 used as DAC driven by Aurender N200. To me, the network renderer in the Bricasti does not compete with the N200. This was the case even when I used the N200 with a stock power cord and the included Aurender USB cable.
Few important items to make a note of with the N200 -

1. It requires close to 300hrs of break in to settle. There are times when it will sound “digital” and grainy in the beginning and midway thru. It all starts going away after about 250hrs and by 300hrs it’s awesome

2. The N200 is optimized for USB. Yes the spdif out sounds good but USB is just better in every way. However, even with the spdif out using DH Labs D750 cable I liked it better than using the M3 network card

3. The Aurender is very resolving but not harsh. If your components or cables upstream are tuned to brighten things up, you will hear the brightness imparted by the upstream components.

This streamer is not a small change when added to the system and as any impactful upgrade will require some work to properly integrate. Once done, it’s smooth, tube like and extended with great dynamics. That is how I would describe it. Going back to the Bricasti network card, using the same Ethernet cable I use to feed the Aurender, the soundstage collapses, clarity reduces and the overall presentation just doesn’t match the N200. Not to completely disregard the Bricasti network card, it competed and beat out the Lumin U1 Mini in my system. So it’s not terrible at all. It just doesn’t hold a candle to the N200.

@lalitk haha, my brain may have fatigued because I’m not used to such attention to detail

I will admit that I was listening with some bias. The used N1Z is the cheaper option. I was really hoping that I would prefer the N1Z to save some money, so maybe I tried to create a preference for it.

There were several albums where the difference was not notable. But when I listened to Glenn Gould, the Goldberg Variations, the N200 shined above. Then Billie Holiday. Her vocals have always sounded a bit harsh in my system. On the N1Z, it was slightly harsh, but with the N200, it was not. And then Tool’s Chocolate Chip Trip had another dimension on the N200 compared to the N1Z.

@lalik +1

This is an unusual observation. This is just not a characteristic of the Aurender sound. I can only think the fatigue is coming from elsewhere in the system.

“I strangely found it more fatiguing for long sessions.”

@zpatenaude37 

While I respect your decision to go with network card option w/Bricasti….the N200 is anything but fatigued sounding. My best guess, you are now used to N100 laid back and slightly recessed sound. Whereas N200 is more dynamic, detailed and has a better much frequency extension and slam. Just my .02 cents. 

Hey, sorry I haven’t responded in a bit.

I spent the weekend with the N200 and N1Z. Both were great. The N200 beat out the N1Z on certain albums, but I strangely found it more fatiguing for long sessions.

I did look into the network upgrade for my MC1, and they can do it. It sucks that I won’t be able to demo that before doing it, but I think I will go with that option. It is Roon ready, so I’ll be good to go. Looking through the forums, I haven’t seen anyone expressing disappointment with the network upgrade on their Bricasti.

That will save some money, and then I will demo the shunyata altaira. I live in an apartment currently, so I'm curious if a grounding hub will add a notable difference. 

@zpatenaude37 how are you getting on? 

Do you exclusively stream through Roon?  If so and you don't have a big budget then why not Roon Nucleus as  your streamer--then USB to your DAC same as when you used Macbook.  Nucleus is purpose built for Roon, has no fan and even though one user here had a bad experience his situation was unusual.

“I really, really believe that the clocking in the server is a very real thing”

+1, @ghasley on the importance of clocking in a server/streamer. I have taken a slightly extreme approach by addressing the clocking in a streamer and DAC with a very high quality external master clock that has yielded to a very satisfying listening experience. 

@zpatenaude37

Is your Bricasti MC1 similar to the M1 in that you can have a network card installed?

I own a Bricasti M3 and a close friend owns an M1.  We have listened to them using every input.  The network input is, by far, the best input for these DACs.  One of the main reasons is that the network signal path is the shortest to the chipsets inside the chassis according to the designer Mr. Zolner.

My friend compared his insanely purposely built PC using two separate Mutec boxes (master clock then a reclocker) to his M1 and the network input from his home server.  We were able to blindly choose the network input every time.  Nothing changed tonality.  It was all about spatial cues and greater size and delineation of soundstage right/left and front/back.  Oh, BTW, he also uses B&W 802s.

TL;DR

Set up a home network if possible and use the Bricasti network card inside your MC1.

@ghasley thanks for the excellent and knowledgeable response. I didn't think you just had a generic ethernet cable only. 😉 I am doing very well, with my new streamer, but I'm not saying what it is yet ha ha. Hope you are well yourself, and it sounds like you are 😁

Hi @mclinnguy , I hope you are well!

I go from router to a Network Acoustics Rubicon Switch, Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable to Grimm MU1, Shunyata Sigma V2 AES cable to DCS Bartok Apex. I also have another Vodka ethernet from switch to Bartok. I once had Muon filter, Muon Pro filter and the Grimm seemed to my ears to be agnostic with those in the chain. If I were to arbitrairly score the Grimm AES feed vs the Bartok’s own streamer over ethernet it would be something like a 92 for the Grimm via AES and an 89 for the Bartok over ethernet. The Bartok streamer is very good but there is perhaps another level of refinement with the Grimm. I have some HDTT DSD recordings so I stream those directly to the Bartok since the Grimm is 24/192. Ironically, many of the downconverted DSD sound better when fed through the Grimm at 24/96 than the DSD version. The Grimm’s clocking and 4fs must have some advantage in that regard. The Taiko would be something like a 95-96 in my system but at the end of the day, there just is no way for me to justify a 3x price differential for a very minor subjective difference.

I really, really believe that the clocking in the server is a very real thing with the Grimm. USB users who have focused on their dac’s own clocking might not understand why high end server/streamer A sounds so similar to high end server/streamer B…its because in many cases they may. If you happen to have the opportunity to hear a well done AES stream versus a well done USB stream you may come to the conclusion that the maturity of the AES stream has some advantages depending on the rest of the audio chain. Something else that is very enlightening…connecting some older dacs to the Grimm, perhaps well regarded back in the day, will yield jaw dropping results. For instance, I recently connected a mk1 version of a Merason DAC1 to the the Grimm…made me wonder why I spent the extra money on the DCS….(spoiler alert, its because I already own it LOL)

@ghasley very nice. Yes, I can't see how someone would be disappointed with an MU1. Are you now simply going ethernet cable direct from router? or switch? Audiophile ethernet cable? 

@zpatenaude37 

Perhaps you might check out the Grimm MU1 (disclosure: I’ve onwed one for 2+ years). With the introduction of the MU2 (MU1 with inboard dac) a few preowned MU1’s have popped up for sale. At the time of my purchase I compared with others inclusive of the Innuos Statement and preferred the MU1. The current street price for a preowned appears to be in your target price range. I run mine via AES into a DCS Bartok Apex…simply breathtaking. There are alot of fine products out there and I passed through the tweaky phase (ether regens, filters, fiber, usb, all kinds of stuff) and found the greatest improvement was simplifying the chain, which the MU1 facilitated. I believe strongly that AES is superior presently. While the inboard streamer over ethernet in my DCS sounds exceptional, there is just something very special with the stream from the Grimm. Good luck and best wishes.

@zpatenaude37 I don't know why this is still for sale: absolute bargain

k50

Actually, some are affordable for me. I was on a different site where they were more expensive, but the k21 looks to be $7k

I'm sure I'd have some love for Antipodes if even their cheapest streamer/server was at my price point 

No love for Antipodes here?

Hard to answer as I have different amps now so no real side by side.

@phishhhhh4 thanks for the response. It was actually the nucleus vs. pulsar sound comparison I was inquiring about, not so much about the whole Roon customer service experience. But now that vented a bit I hope you feel better 😉

I assume you prefer the sound of the Pulsar w sense compared to the Nucleus w Roon. Are you able to describe the attributes in which it is preferable to you? 

I used Roon before getting my Pulsar

Given the nature of my music library I was one of a small number of users that Roon could not handle.

I used a nucleus + with my FLAC library on my NAS

Roon would always hang up between tracks, search, etc

I added memory to the Nucleus at Roon supports advice but it did not help 

I was worried about where to go if not Roon-when it works it is an excellent product.

I am thrilled to discover the Innuos Sense app is just as good at what I need it for as Roon.

My biggest knock on Roon is it's support system.

It can be very difficult to address technical issues by posting to a message board and then email back and forth . It can take days to get a reply.

I'm also not happy with the time and $$$ engaging that system led to getting the answer I was looking for as to why Roon was plagued with performance issues for me.

It took 2 yrs for them to finally tell me "well it's your library sorry"

I then asked if they would refund the cost of the nucleus +, added memory (at their advice) and my subscription fees. I was told they would not refund me.

I've never seen any info about Roon not being able to handle certain libraries. I felt that should translate into a refund for me

Anyway I'm glad to be free of them ...still gets me worked up 

First time I've thought of it for awhile

The Sense App is great as is my Pulsar. I nightly recommend both

@blisshifi 

If you don’t mind, let’s circle back on data cable. This is an experimental project on both sides and I would like to first see if this cable would make any audible improvements. I went through considerable trouble to source special connectors and the wire that is touted to be next level In digital data transfer. I will gladly share more info once I had a chance to compare with stock data cable. 

Did you hear audible improvement with your custom power umbilical? 

As far as fuse goes, my go to reference is HiFi Tuning Supreme Cu. 

@lalitk Where did you get the custom data cable? It has been on my list to build one for myself as I made a custom power umbilical. The SR Master Fuse is quite good in the N30SA. Hope that’s what you swing for!

@blisshifi 

Voodoo vs N30SA should be an interesting comparison. I heard noticeable improvement on N20 with external clock which prompted me to pursue N30SA. I am also awaiting on custom data cable in next few weeks. And lastly, the fuse upgrade in my N30SA once the data cable fully broken-in. 

@lalitk I have not, though I hope to get an MC10 in my hands for demo this quarter. I’ve heard the performance improves even if only using it with the  N30SA and nothing else.

As another fun evaluation, I’ll also have the new Synergistic Research Voodoo server/streamer in a few weeks and will be able to compare that to the N30SA. Should be exciting!

@blisshifi

Juan, I am certainly not holding my breath for ROON..LOL!

Did you ever experimented with external clock on your N30SA? I have been on a roll with ‘clock’ cables for past 3 months. It’s been so much fun learning and splitting hairs at the same time. Who would thought a clock cable can be so impactful for overall audio fidelity. All of my cables were under $1K, from $150 and up. The latest one, SOtM dCBL BNC 50ohms cable is freakin amazing. I am hearing significant uplift in terms of textural cues, a broader soundstage, more air, amazingly lush and balanced tonality. There is this deeper depth, low end slam and definition without sacrificing any detail. One of my favorite tracks, If You Go by Shirley Horn. Truly a reference track to showcase your system. And, listen to Somewhere Over The Rainbow by Tony Overwater_Yuri Honing…the tenor sax gives me goosebumps each time I cue up this track.

Kudos to Aurender, for including Master Clock option on their top tier streamers.

Juan…yeah we’ll wait :)

My apologies... Roon integration seems to be disabled at this time, or it is specific to certain Aurender units. I was using the Conductor app in January and saw the feature in the settings, but as I use my N30SA now I see it is no longer there. Perhaps this was enabled for beta users and dealers, or perhaps I saw it when I last used the new Aurender AP20. In either case, it looks like this has not yet been publicly rolled out.

@audphile1 @zpatenaude37 Aurender has already implemented Roon integration, but to date it is only to allow Aurender be a Roon endpoint. This means a separate Roon core is still required. To enable the Aurender to be a Roon endpoint, users just need to go to the “streaming” panel in the Conductor app. 

@phishhhhh4 I don't have to pay Roon any $$$, anymore.

What did you use before the Pulsar? can you share some comparisons? 

ROOM Couldn't handle my library 

Innous Sense App in my Pulsar can

Loving it!

Great not having to pay $$$ to Roon

“the device you will be running your Roon core on will be the least of your problems. It’s unlikely to make any difference.”

@audphile1 

I hope you are right. That’s not been my experience with other Roon ready devices. Maybe Aurender can keep bitstream as faithful and exquisite through Roon as they have managed to do so through Conductor app. We will see! 

@zpatenaude37 got it. 

@lalitk I’m a Roon user. I still have an active subscription but not using it anymore in my main system since I switched to Aurender. I also heard about Roon integration being “in the works” but haven’t heard it from an official and reliable source.
As to trying Roon….I was thinking about how Aurender designers can integrate Roon endpoint capabilities. I struggle to envision how, when Roon is enabled, the processing of the data stream can remain true to what the Conductor app/OS is doing. My assumption is that Roon will have to be enabled and by doing so the Conductor processing will be turned off. Meaning less processing, no caching.
I hope I’m wrong. But if I’m right, the device you will be running your Roon core on will be the least of your problems. It’s unlikely to make any difference. The conductor is what we’ll continue using for critical listening. That’s my prediction. And it is also what I believe to be Aurender’s main driving factor for delaying and potentially may be never implementing Roon ready functionality. I’ll be glad if I am wrong though because I really love the rich feature set offered by Roon.

@audphile1 not a real source I guess. I called Goodwins Audio in Massachusetts and am doing a demo with their N200. I believe he used the word "soon" when referring to Aurender and Roon. I am not sure if he knows more or less than anyone else. 

@audphile1 

All we know it’s in the works and newer generation Aurender will be compatible as Roon endpoint. You still need to source another piece of hardware to run as a Roon Core. Personally, anything off the shelf NUC or mass produced laptop to run Roon core will be a non-starter for me. I will not likely try Roon on my N30SA until Aurender comes out with a customized solution to run Roon Core 😊

Melco’s Ethernet out sounds much better than it’s USB. Great filtering too..

zpatenaude37 OP

28 posts

01-31-2024 at 02:41pm 

I guess Aurender is close to being Roon compatible. 
 

What is the source of this information?

All PC’s but Mac lapotps in particular have a couple of issues related to power and grounding. Get a USB isolator and consider keeping your laptop charger off while listening to music OR move it outside your power conditioner clean area OR get a linear supply.

For the power supply issue, the good news is you can validate if this is an issue or not simply by playing music with/without the laptop charger plugged in. I’d wait until your laptop was down to about ~ 50% charged though. That way the charger is working at it’s hardest and therefore making the most possible noise.

Ironically, if you put your laptop on a different circuit the USB isolator becomes even more important.  Well, this depends on the DAC, but sad to say too many modern DACs still don't have galvanic isolation built in.

https://amzn.to/3UlFRqU

Looks like Melco has a USB DAC-dedicated output. So I would compare N200 and Melco using USB out. 
Make a note though….Qobuz sounds better than Tidal with the Aurender N200. Not sure about Melco. To @mclinnguy’s point…the key is to use what works best for each streamer. Could be Roon for Melco. I don’t know…

👍

I briefly checked out a Melco N1ZH/2 review, and the reviewer’s opinion was the ethernet out "player" was the best connector, and I believe with the N200 it is USB? I suppose for an apples to apples comparison those are what must be connected for each server to perform at its peak.

But then what does one do with apps- conductor for Aurender, and what for Melco? I am thinking it would be easy for a salesperson to steer the auditioner in a particular direction. It sure isn’t like a/b testing a pre-amp, is it?

edit: Qobuz for both perhaps? 

I don’t have any major grievances with the conductor app.
Roon is more advanced in few areas - it slices and dices, consolidates and filters better than the Conductor. It also provides an actual bitrate of the album in the search results as opposed to “HR” or “Max” label that you get with the Conductor. But none of these missing features are essential and they don’t impact the sound quality. They’re just there as part of an enchanted feature set. Nice to have  

@zpatenaude37 let us know how that comparison goes.

@mazian

Thanks for sharing your feedback. I have the luxury of toggling between ROON and Conductor and didn’t find much difference as far as search results for classical albums or artists. Since most of the classical composition shared by various artists / composers, I pay close attention to key words while searching for classical albums. I still prefer Conductor app over ROON for optimal SQ and its ability to keep my rips/downloads separate from Qobuz stream. Conductor also allows me to create folders and neatly put them on menu bar for easy access. Whereas ROON merges everything in one library (not my personal preference). I do agree, Qobuz native app is pretty good and I use it frequently when I am away from my main system.

Innuos Fan here. The sense app is excellent. I have the Pulse Mini powered by a Zen Mini LPS. Use Co-Ax to my Pre/DAC combo. I couldn't be happier.

I guess Aurender is close to being Roon compatible. I just called 2 different shops, and this weekend I'll be doing an a/b test with an Aurender N200 and the Melco.