The power to my house comes from the pole on the road, then underground to a large box that I assume is a transformer. This supplies power to my house only: there are no other houses within 1000’. Does this mean that I am getting very clean power?
I recently added an Ifi Powerstation with a Nordost Blueheaven power cord and I was shocked by the improvement in tone and detail in my system (Pi2AES>Hegel H190>Tekton Lore). Until this change, I was underwhelmed with my system but I'm now extremely happy with it. I know that the cleanliness of everyone's house power is different but if you have a chance to audition one, with free returns, why not.
I highly recommend PS Audio Powerplants. With their direct puchase plan you can return it in a month for a full refund. Trying them out in your system is the only way you'll hear the difference.
I have found tremendous benefit from cleaning the exterior and interior power. I ran 3 dedicated lines. I found putting my mono amplifiers on one line, my digital on another and analog on the third. I have a Denali on the analog and PS 10 Powerplant on the digital. I have found changing the settings on the PS 10 to have a lot of influence on the sound. I have removed all SMPS power bricks from the above lines and run them on a house line. I found the SMPS injected significant noise and caused ugly distortion. I have an Akiko Corelli on the Denali, it dropped the noise level. I have LPS's for as much gear as I can.
I had an old power wedge & decided to try a conditioner to see if there was improvement. I got an iFi power station with the two additional I purifiers.
It made a significant improvement in soundstage imaging, blackness & clarity. More improvement than I had expected.
I have reference level cables & I think that helped to realize the improvement.
Really glad I tried it cause the improvement it made in listening to just my MD102 tuner alone was worth it…
Life-saving tip: If you see someone get hit by lightning or is otherwise electrocuted the lethality is due to the heart going into ventricular fibrillation. Therefore, you should check for a pulse and if absent, do a precordial thump, which is a fairly hard and sharp blow to the sternum. Do it once and check for a pulse and if there’s no pulse, do it again and check for a pulse. If there is still no pulse, start chess compressions and get help. If you are uncomfortable with a precordial thump, go directly to chest compressions after checking for a pulse.
I have been a long time believer in the benefits of AC regeneration. I used to find that I would get the best from my system late at night, especially in the Spring and Fall when the demand on the power grid was at a low point. For the last several years, I have had a PS Audio P20 in my system and regardless of what time of day or season, I get super clean power with a very low impedance-and my system sounds consistently great. This is a fantastic product and in addition to helping create an incredible sound stage and amazing micro detail, because of the low impedance and ability to deliver peak power, I don’t experience compression with loud complex musical passages that were a problem in the past. I have tried all kinds of filters and some very expensive conditioning products and I prefer the P20 hands down. One other point, I do have a dedicated 20 amp line with #10 gage shielded wire running to the P20. Also, the AudioQuest Hurricane Power cords don't hurt. I never believed in power cords having an tangible effect until I did some A/B with the AudioQuest Storm line. Don't think I would drop $30K on the Dragons to outfit my system but any of the Storm series is highly recommended.
The problem living in a narrative driven "reality" people become accustomed to making up whatever story they like regardless of the truth, it becomes "their truth" and on they go their merry way off into fantasy land.
I never said be casual. I said don't be a fear monger.
Including slimy twist the words around fear mongering.
How to achieve clean power? 1. Establish an earth ground. 2. Set up a dedicated circuit. 3. Plug an ADD-POWR Sorcer X4, an AC harmonic resonator, into an outlet in proximity to the breaker panel. If sockets are needed then buy a quality AC power strip.
Hello, +1 on the Puritan PSM156. They also have a couple of other products you can add to fix the ground going from your system. I own 2 Puritan PSM156 and the Ultimate XX power cords. This is a great place to start. If you demo it get a fully broken in unit. This takes 12 days. After you plug in your gear you will need about 12 hours for your caps to charge back up in your gear. The filtration in this thing is insane with no negative sound effects. Just pure bliss. If you have an electrician modify or add a dedicated line have him put it on the side of the panel with the least amount of noise. No refrigerators, no HVAC units, no washers or dryers. Basically things that create noise and are on a lot. Power cords make a huge difference going to your equipment to help with RFI. If you are in the Chicagoland area and want to demo the Puritan this store lets you try before you buy. https://holmaudio.com/ Be warned you will sell anything to buy this. At $2300 it’s not cheap. It’s just perfect. I replaced my two Furman power conditioners with the Puritans.
Some good recipes given. My pathway involves PPT "The Gate", OYAIDE SWO-XXX ULTIMO Wall Outlet Receptacle with carbon fiber wall plate, Patrick Cullen Crossover II power cords and Decware Zen Power Conditioner.
This has all been quite effective lowering the noise floor, blacker backgrounds and improving attack. I've no dedicated line.
Miller, you use the phrase "a little common sense" like it actually pertains, here. Some of the smartest people I've ever worked with were some of the most ignorant people ever when it came to household electricity. There's no magical common sense involved, a person has actually been taught, or learned, or not. The average homeowner that looks inside an electrical panel doesn't know the first thing about it. I'm not for an instant suggesting they can't learn, but it's nothing to treat in a casual manner.
@jea4 - yeah when I'm opening a panel with 3 phase VAC I step to the side and have had some pretty interesting looks when I've told people to step aside and move way back, and I'll absolutely wait for them to comply.
The PPE I have worn when training for 480 three phase, gave me some idea of how dangerous even that is (high joule rating). ISOLATION. Lock out, tag out. Anyone doing electrical work on their own home, I would highly recommend purchasing an AC detector pen. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Klein-Tools-NCVT-5A-Non-Contact-Voltage-Tester-w-Laser/996218143 I often use it to quickly troubleshoot motor controls, easily finds faults on three phase monitors, motor starters etc. (and then I break out the Fluke). And if it's right there I'll wave it over the conductors just to be super sure, I've absolutely isolated the correct circuit.
Almost every test in my instrumentation course I did, covered how many milliamps it took to stop a heart.
Heh. Good one. What I'm talkin' bout. Perfectly simple thing anyone can undertake with a little common sense. Instead of, "You can do it, just pay attention and be careful" we get a 500 word horror story.
Reminds me of when I was a kid learning to drive. Instead of actually teaching anyone how to drive they spend the whole time on horror stories and oh by the way red means stop.
vgizzi- Who would have thought that cleaning a circuit breaker’s contacts would be so dangerous? Should I move my family to a hotel until the problem can be fixed?
A little background and perspective on the zeitgeist here. Couple years ago when I wanted to add a pre-amp out to my amp it seemed a pretty simple mod others here would have done and so I asked. No one had anything the least bit helpful. Three or four times I was WARNED and CAUTIONED to NOT look INSIDE as tube amps have LETHAL VOLTAGE. I said well I was planning on unplugging it. IT WILL KILL YOU EVEN UNPLUGGED! LETHAL VOLTAGE!!!!
No kidding. Zero useful information, pure flat out fear mongering. The answer turned out to be as simple as this https://www.epanorama.net/circuits/speaker_to_line.html Two resistors, $2 total, half an hour tops, hour including the trip to the electrical parts store. For this I was told to spend $5k on an amp I don’t need, or die, burning down my neighborhood in the process. You may notice I do not often ask questions here. Now you know why.
The practical, useful and ultimately truly safe way to look at it is to understand voltage and current. Once you do, well that is how I have been able to completely wire a house, completely install and wire a whole panel, run 240V with a step down to my system, modify countless components, on and on, all without killing myself or burning down the neighborhood.
You can do it, too. Shame anyone wants to frighten people away from learning practical useful skills that ultimately help you become a more capable, independent individual.
There are ways of checking how clean your power is but the fact that you are so far away from everything and everyone else helps a lot as well as having your own dedicated transformer. Your power should be just fine in all of these cases unless you are overloading the transformer or the transformer is making the power line noisy because it is wearing out.
jea48: Who would have thought that cleaning a circuit breaker’s contacts would be so dangerous? Should I move my family to a hotel until the problem can be fixed?
Should I move my family to a hotel until the problem can be fixed?
LOL, No.... Just don’t try to overload a 15 or 20 amp circuit to see if the breaker will trip open. It may or it may not trip open. House was built in 1992 and it is still standing.
When the electrician comes out to look at the panel he will pull out the breakers, (not all at once) and inspect the breaker bus connectors for arcing damage as well as the connector on the Line side of the breakers. He may also look for discoloration on the branch circuit breaker hot conductors insulation as well as the branch circuit neutral wire insulation for discoloration. (Two causes. Loose connection. Wire overloaded for an extended time for possibly months or years).
If by chance in the winter months you use a portable electric space heater I would suggest you have the electrician pull the wall duplex receptacle(s) out of the wall box where the heater was plugged in and inspect the wire connections on the outlet. If the circuit was overloaded for hours upon hours over time the wire at the terminals will be discolored. Insulation on the wires near the terminations will be discolored, maybe brittle and or cracked. If the duplex outlets were used for in and out connections for the branch circuit wiring then all duplex outlets upstream toward the electrical panel on the circuit should be checked for damage. 15 amp branch circuits, 14awg wire, are the most abused, overloaded, by things like portable space heaters and such.
It may have been a blessing you cleaned the terminations on the load side of the breaker and posted it here on your thread. You can thank @ 4krowme for peaking my interest and asking you who the manufacturer of the panel is/was.
I am not familiar with Challenger electrical panels. I have never seen one around here. I am quite familiar with FPE (commonly called F****ing Poor Equipment), and Zinsco (GTE-Sylvania). Both were sued out of existence.
Some of their breakers might trip open. Others were/are nothing more than ON/OFF disconnect switches.
Anyone remember that scene from Fight Club where Ed Norton's character goes down into the basement and wades in waist deep water to replace an old style screw in fuse that's sparking all over the place?
jea48: Who would have thought that cleaning a circuit breaker's contacts would be so dangerous? Should I move my family to a hotel until the problem can be fixed?
Hey Guys - I live in miami so power surges are common as well as momentary cuts in power…sometimes power cuts last 15-60 seconds…
….so here’s what I’m thinking…
Wall outlet to commercial grade Amazon sign-wave battery back-up. The meter on the backup tells me I’m never exceeding more than 20% of the units capacity. It’s already kicked in 3-4 times when the power “blinks” during storms.
Then AQ Niagra 5000 into the battery back-up and then my components into the 5000…(waiting on the 5000 to arrive)
I’ll let you know what I hear.
My gear is all pretty new so as far as I can tell, it all sounds pretty quiet now.
Your electrical panel may be an electrical fire hazard just waiting to happen. I strongly suggest you hire a licensed electrician to check it out. I also recommend you do not pull the panel cover off again until you do.
My panel is a Challenger SB40. The buss material is hard to determine; it is clearly not raw copper, but has a shiny metallic finish. The contacts in the breaker are copper.
vgizzi, steakster has a great overview above. The only quibble I have is the main improvement we get with a dedicated line is nothing to do with isolation, it is all from the wire running continuous. Most circuits are run outlet to outlet, with each outlet adding a number of connections and each connection adding a lot of micro-arcing and noise. So that is the main benefit, and they should be called direct instead of dedicated. But whatever.
People talk about noise in terms of obvious stuff like a blow dryer. The number one thing to keep in mind is every wire is an antenna. RFI is everywhere. So every wire is an antenna bringing RFI into the system. The AC can be somehow perfectly clean, yet the first inch of wire coming out of it starts picking up RFI. This is probably one reason power cords make such a difference, but whatever. Not the point. Point is noise is everywhere, so the fixes must be everywhere, there is no one silver bullet.
Transformers work primarily because of the way they are designed. The alternating current in the primary creates a rising and falling magnetic field that induces a current in the secondary. There is no electrical connection, just the alternating field. The same happens by the way with the output transformers in an amplifier, or a SUT for MC cartridges.
Ever notice the difference high quality transformers make in these cases? It is huge. Why? Because it is hard to design one to work across a wide range of frequency. The alternating field in a AC isolation transformer is designed to very efficiently pass 60 Hz AC. But higher frequencies not so much. Most of the line noise we are trying to eliminate is RFI, radio frequency, very high. Any old transformer will filter RFI just fine. It is just not that hard. Once you understand the principles on which transformers work it is pretty easy to understand why they are used all over the place.
That answers your transformer questions. And your dedicated circuit question.
As for the stuff you tried, the proof is in the pudding. It does no good to ask what if. Who cares what the transformer at the end of your street is doing? To know you would have to move your stereo to the house up the street. Or run a line from before that transformer. To what end? Why? Such questions are academic.
What really works is to deal with what really works. Sorry, but if you try something and hear no difference then by definition it doesn't really work. All the stuff I am talking about, it really works. You will hear it, and not just barely either.
jea48: My panel is a Challenger SB40. The buss material is hard to determine; it is clearly not raw copper, but has a shiny metallic finish. The contacts in the breaker are copper.
I cleaned the load wire with a fine metal brush until the copper was shiny, then sprayed Deoxit: same for the the load end. Didn't touch the buss connector.
Thanks for your detailed response to my last question.
All household circuits are tied together at the circuit breaker panel. Kind of like a train switchyard. The rumbling of a train will be most severe on the track it’s traveling. But, the other tracks will still suffer the effects of milder rumbling since they’re all connected.
Most residential houses in the U.S. have a circuit breaker panel with two hot buss bars and one neutral buss bar - along with a ground connection. Each hot buss bar is tied (connected) to the one neutral buss bar via the circuit breakers. In other words, no matter how many circuits you have in your house, they all meet at the two buss bars and the one neutral. The one neutral is shared by every circuit in the house. Here’s how Bob Vila explains it.
A dedicated circuit for audio that is properly installed will help isolate it from the noise on other circuits caused by various household appliances. A dedicated circuit is definitely a major improvement. Yet, a high resolution audio system will still reveal noise (distortion) that’s polluting other circuits – such as a hairdryer that’s being used in the upstairs bathroom. Many dedicated listening rooms that have multiple dedicated circuits – also have power conditioners behind the equipment rack.
Most audio systems sound best after midnight during the week - or on Sundays - when the town’s electrical grid is less taxed. Apartments in apartment buildings share the noise from their neighbors. Houses in housing developments share the noise from their neighbors.
Much depends on how resolving the audio system is – and one’s hearing sensitivity. Curiously, the cleaner the power supply, the easier it is to hear anomalies. Imagine looking a white wall that is randomly speckled all over with black dots. Your eye will wander around the wall. There’s plenty to look at, but specific areas are ignored. Now, imagine looking at a white wall with only one black dot. Your eye will zero in on that one black dot. A low resolving system is like the first wall. A high resolving system is like the 2nd one. The black dots would be points of distortion. (nota bene, Christo).
Safety warning: Do not poke around a circuit breaker box - if you don’t know what your doing. Instant death may occur.
You will need an oscilloscope to see the sinusoidal waveform of your AC coming into your home. If you're dead keen on seeing it, that's what you want to use.
What you use in your house / stereo system will introduce noise into the supply, especially localised noise.
What I liked that sold me on the idea of the Puritan PSM 156 power conditioner is the no nonsense approach. Twin transformers to allow for good current flow with no bottleneck, DC (direct current) removal (also can been seen using an oscilloscope) and each receptacle is isolated from each other by using a high pass shunt of electrical energy to ground, from both neutral and active, individually. It also has circuit protection.
And it's one of the least expensive, with the most features. I'll admit it, I am a performance buyer, with limited budget - so it had better perform!
4krowme, The grunge I cleaned off wasn’t greasy, or oily like the de-oxit spray. It was the sort of powdery oxidation that’s so common.
Are you referring to the line side of the breaker contact to the Hot bus tap connection? Is the electrical panel Line bus copper or aluminum? If copper is it bare or plated? Manufacturer of electrical panel?
How did you clean the electrical connections surfaces? Abrasives should not be used on electrical aluminum bus in an electrical panel. The aluminum bus and aluminum alloy neutral/ground bars are plated. Even light sanding can remove the thin plating.
Also, I have the same question about a dedicated circuit. What is it actually doing?
Basically a dedicated wiring circuit is used to feed a specific, dedicated, load(s). Like audio equipment.
Unlike a convenience outlet branch circuit that may feed several outlets and in some cases will also feed ceiling lighting fixtures/lights. The convenience outlet branch circuit has many electrical connections. With the passage of time and connected varying loads over time the connections may/will loosen and or corrode. (Methods used for making the connections can very. From very good, to not so good). Poor electrical connections can add series resistance to the branch circuit wiring. Also a loose and or corroded connection can cause micro arcing which can/will create electrical noise on the wiring. Add to that the integrity of the wall duplex receptacle female contacts. Most houses have cheap residential grade outlets installed. With the passage of time, and use, the outlets lose their contact pressure and ability to grip the male plug tightly. When a load is connected the poor contact connections will cause micro arcing and put noise back onto the branch circuit wiring. Last but not least the loads that are connected to the convenience outlet branch circuit will add their own noise directly onto the circuit wiring.
A dedicated branch circuit in most cases will not have any splices/connections from the breaker, neutral, and equipment ground connection in the electrical panel to the electrical wall outlet. No other loads are connected directly to the branch circuit.
The type of branch circuit wiring used and wiring method used can greatly influence the quality of how your audio system will sound.
Doesn't keeping your audio components on a dedicated circuit protect them from noise generated by other household appliances? If not, what purpose does a dedicated circuit achieve?
An Audioquest Niagara 1200, AQ Edison receptacle, AQ Thunder power cord to amp, and an AQ Z3 power cord from Niagara to the receptacle. Dedicated circuit 12/2 to 20 amp breaker on panel. Relatively low expenditure but good results. Surplus receptacles provided by a Furman pst-8. One and done! All electrical work performed by me...saved $$$.
@vgizzi Generally speaking, everyone’s electrical situation is unique, components differ in their resistance to electrical noise, audio systems differ in their transparencies/resolutions/noise floors, and people have different hearing preferences and abilities. While you may be able to draw some general conclusions, everyone’s situation is unique.
I suggest trying yourself to see if any sonic upticks- seems most folks do. To save $ find vendors w free trial or buy used and resell if you’re not satisfied.
OP, The greasy ’grunge’ that you removed from the breaker clips is called N0-Ox, and is intended to keep the breaker contacts that were covered with it, clean, and free from oxidation. If they were protected, with No-ox, they aren't now. Try try again.
steakster, I forgot about those devices as I'm still hooked up to the old time meters that some poor DWP worker has to schlep around narrow back corridors to get their readings.
But how better a way to transmit the data back than to use the fields generated by the power lines themselves, adding to all the mess we hear on our AC lines. When you look at it that way, nothing is safe or clean.
I've posted they before but some time ago I spoke to an AT&T tech who doing an install in my neighbors apartment. He used to teach electrical engineering at the local community college but preferred to work out in the field.
He told me that they were sending up to 5 TBs of data using the fields generated by the power in the lines across the city. That doesn't just stop at a transformer, and if anything, engulfs it. More than some of that will make it's way down the line to your place, to dirty up the AC.
That was years ago and it doesn't seem too much to think all carriers are doing something of the sort all over the place.
I know that there are a zillion causes of electrical noise within the home. I'd like to know --just out of curiosity--what effect on the mains power the following have:
Step-down transformer feeding my house. It is at the end of the line, no other house being supplied. Does the transformer by nature clean up the power?
All audio equipment on a dedicated circuit and single heavy duty outlet. I suspect that the outlet is only better than a standard one in safety specs.
I cleaned up and reseated the hot wire coming from the breaker in the panel. I also removed a fair amount of grunge on the breaker clip. Don't know if this had any audible effect.
I tried a 1-to-1 transformer to feed all the front-end electronics. It was a fairly cheap unit but rated sufficiently. Can't say I herd any difference.
Everything makes a difference. My electronics allow the user to turn off the displays while in operation. Things always sound better with the displays off. It is the same type of noise reduction being discussed here.
I also use Chang Lightspeed gear, I think the model is 6400. It works well for my system. I have read some negative comments about Chang's components some time back, but it seems to work well in my experience.
Dirty power = Distortion (noise) comes from 3 primary sources:
1) The utility company – coming into the house circuit breaker panel.
2) Appliances within the house – eg: TV’s, computers, fluorescent lighting, refrigerators, HVAC, hair-dryers, etc.
See: Jea48’s post above
3) The audio components themselves – especially, the digital ones.
Each digital component – modem, router, streamer, bridge, DAC, etc – regurgitates noise back into the audio circuit – as well as throughout the house – and visa versa. Eventually, this noise creates distortion in the audio signal.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
oregonpapa The only measurement gauges I own are my ears. The differences can be clearly heard, and are quite striking.
^^^Exactly.
If ’something’ seems off when listening to music - such as a harsh vocal or a ringing piano note or a strident violin - ask yourself:
Would that ’something’ be allowed on that recording:
- By the recording engineer?
- By the mastering engineer?
- By the record producer?
- By the record label?
- By the recording artist?
Probably not. There’s a good likelihood that dirty power is the culprit. Its causing distortions that shouldn’t be there.
Thanks. The improvements you report are just what I'm wishing for. Was hesitating on regenerators, with PS Audio's entry-level being double the price of the Audioquest. Believe I will start just where you did and, with luck, maybe need look no further.
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