Good question but I can't figure that one out without asking for a lifeline, or would that be collective in nature?
Maybe divide and conquer has the lowest common denominator as it's desired result. An uneducated populace is much easier to control. That, or making public education look bad is necessary in order to turn it over to the superior private sector where, guess what, the results turn out about the same but the public monies end up in private hands. The Enron model can be used in many interesting ways.
That would be no problem if I didn't think that American customs would accuse me of trying to poison the nation with unknown substances in retaliation for denying my face a fix. But I might be able to smuggle it inside made in China Classe. Hummus from Iran smuggled inside capacitors of Canadian made in China amp would probably be a unique way of delivering stuff. I would just need to figure out who would pay for that Classe.
FWIW, my dog did an optional overnight at a vets recently for treatment for a minor infection and dehydration.
Cost: almost $400. For a dog. O love my dog, but still, for a DOG!
To me this was a clear indicator of how out of whack this countries priorities and social services delivery capabilities are.
Of course, high end audio affectionados like us know a lot from exprience about the economic perils of priorities that are perhaps a bit out of sync with those of the general public, right?
Thier decision is still about retaining/growing profit margin. No one's going to start and continue a business without wanting a "reasonable" if not "healthy" profit. One does not operate a business just to cover expenses. Profits fulfill many important functions especially future growth. Profit margins also act, yes, as a dipping pool for top execs. How much of a dipping pool this is and how much is dipped varies. I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR BUSINESS. Kindly withhold any vitriol some of you may have from over-reacting to the opening of this note. Classe has issued price increases over time likely for the same reasons other businesses do so, increasing cost of labor and materials and their interest in retaining the margin. I suspect the decision also revolves around price point. Every item/service has a certain price point when exceeded results in lower sales. Most every consumer reaches a limit with a product's price save for those with money to spare or those who will purchase despite the price and their budget. Even the "best" electronic manufacturers in China with the most stringent oversight by the customer company still cost significantly less than manufacture in Canada or the US. This decision automatically increases their margin giving them longer term flexibility on pricing. Businesses are all about the numbers. Overall, I am definitely NOT pro business, but they do employ people. A double edged sword. It is a cutthroat environment. I am not a "high end" customer. Good for those who have the $ to buy the "high end" gear. Hope it all sounds great and meets your expectations. I think spending thousands on a piece of audio gear is funny. Classe's prices to me are funny. Just the same as buying a Benz or one of the other "high end" automobiles. I smile and chuckle when I pass one of these cars on the road. "Yes you are better than me, but I didn't spend the $ you did." It is all relative in the end. Classe does what any other "high end" auto maker does: they make a pretty package for a hi-performing piece of equipment. In the final analysis guys thier move remains a matter of THEIR benefit not yours. Bryston has 15 more years on their warranty than Classe. Hmm..... Emotiva has a 5 year warranty for goodness sake. For the prices Classe charges, since they call their products the BEST (from their website), one would think they could offer a longer warranty. My Hafler 9180 power amp made purchased in 1995 for $477 has a 7 year warranty! It has operated faithfully since then. For those of you so predisposed you may now chuckle. Classe amps likely sound "better" than my cheap little amp. Well good for them. In many respects the higher the price the higher the margin's made by audio equipment manufacturers. Once the circuit design has been created it's the can. Then parts vendors are sourced and manufacturing facilities and labor added. Year after year most "new and improved models" are likely not a significant difference over the previous. The price tag is and there's the trick play. Sometimes yes, "great sonic improvement" can occur. In high end electronics I am not convinced, but then again I drive a 2006 Honda Civic. "Wait for it, here comes the bru ha ha!" B and W the owner of Classe, is laughing all the way to the bank.
Veterinary medicine is where the money is at. Fee for service (no BS with heath plan reimbursement contracting or CMS), predominantly self-pay customers, and an increasing population of childless pet owners that become quickly attached to and lavish huge amounts of affection on their pets.
On another note, the Cleveland Clinic and top health care institutions in this country have programs for foreign VIP patients that include accommodations for family members at in-house or affiliated hotels, as well as other valet and hospitality services. It's an increasingly lucrative business model for these health care institutions given these patients (self-pay) are wealthy enough to afford health care anywhere in the world, and they still prefer to come to the US for their treatment.
Sure the new health care facilities they are building in Singapore, Thailand, and other places across the world look beautiful. They are wired and supplied with all the latest and greatest equipment, not to mention they are charging dirt cheap rates for services (enticing some US corporations to provide incentives in benefit plans to encourage their employees to seek care outside the US). Really though, how qualified is the staff and how good is the care?
In other countries health care is viewed as a social service (although some countries also have a hybrid model that includes a privatized element). Not here though, and that is representative of how our country and economy has evolved. Health care is just another business model and health plans are not committed to the community at large, but rather on shareholder value.
I, like you, have a decent health care package so no, I wouldn't go overseas or across the border to get treatment. But the 40 million + who have no insurance would, it they could.
And don't forget there are folk with duel citizenship who regularly go overseas to their home country for the same service they would get here at a fraction of the cost or for nothing at all. They don't have to mortgage their life savings, their home, their kids future for what would be considered a routine operation.They are lucky because they can "afford" something that should be next to free just by accident of birth.
That reminds me: I have grandparents from Ireland and England (even my dad was born in England) so duel citizenship is available to me (1/4 Irish, 1/4 English, 1/4 French and 1/4 Swedish) and I could have access to all that Europe has to offer. Something to consider if it gets really hairy around here.
Just got to this thread. I'm from Quebec. Saw similar ones on the same topic on Canuck Audio Mart's forum. The Classe move to China.
I find refreshing that a definite concern is rising about being aware of the future and its consequences on our daily lives. Whatever opinion we might have on the subject, a lot of people now know they will have to stand for something or adapt to the new reality. The Classe thing is kinda of a symbolic case for audiophiles up here. But there are a few new important cases that just came by up here in Canada in the recent days. For one, China has bought out and is full owner of an oil field in Alberta. The question is who are they going to hire to work in it and where is that oil going to be shipped. Maybe you guys down south should think about it because at this moment, every drop of oil coming from that field goes to you.So if you guys don't get as much from Alberta as you are used to, you will have to get it from somewhere else, isn't it ? At what cost ?
Another example is more locally based here in Quebec. China and India are massively investing into mining projects up north in new ventures in a variety of natural ressources. The workforce needed in order to realize such a task is counting into the tens of thousands. We don't have, not even close, the available workers to sustain such projects, especially as it is so far north. So again, who are they going to bring in to do the work ? Are those people going to buy locally ? Are they going to pay taxes here ?
Now where does China get the currency needed for such large acquisitions ? In my book, they get it from profits of product sales to us westerners. Period. While Wall Street pays its workers to profit on speculation and paper transactions, China sells us tangible goods. So, in the same time they take the money away from your pocket and your country, therefore depriving your own neighbours of needed financial ressources for schools and healthcare, they are slowly but surely flattening up your belly while holding your testicles a little tighter with the ownership of your nation's debt.
Classe is located a few miles from my home. I've owned some a few years back and as a usual audiophile, I always kept interested in their products for future potential purchases. Not anymore ! It's not logical, it's visceral. An alternative if I want to buy locally would be Simaudio which is close by too. The fact is Simaudio sells close to 70 % of its total output to South Korea. So basically, their sound signature is built for the Korean ear. At the price they are selling this stuff, I'd rather want it built for my ear. To no avail, I will still hold on to my Conrad Johnson and older Acoustat stuff.
I recently bought, as an experiment but long time investment if to my taste, a well known class D amp built in California. To find out while looking at its insides that a lot of parts were from China. Ooops...little visceral thing is happening to me !
I'm not about to read this whole thing, but in skimming thru, Fiddler makes a fine point. Why DIDN'T the alledged healthcare reform include competition across state lines?
Any Constitutional Scholars out there? Wanna talk about the Commerce Clause?
It is all global. Oil companies drill in US for free on governement (common) land with all gov. subsidies (tax breaks) but can sell oil wherever they want. It was shown recently that US became net oil exporter. We still import crude oil but export a lot of oil products.
China is expanding in exponential rate. They're building 50 nuclear power stations, many solar power stations and became world largest car manufacturer. It might be smart to start learning Chinese.
China has some problems of its own. They are also becoming dependent on oil and so are subject to the same robbery-by-oil shiek as the west. What some see as an 'advantage' by the Chinese in the form of just being able to build what they want without our (US) Enviro rules will eventually come back to bite them. I'd love to know what they plan to do with 50+ reactors worth of waste.
French Canadians making amps for South Koreans.. What a strange brave new world. I'll stick to American and European. I heard though that Rowland sells most of his stuff in Asia too but hopefully he doesn't tune his amps to Korean, Chinese, Malai etc. ear. Any fans of Korean music here?
I know about the drill rights and the distribution in a free market. I'm more concerned about the workforce used to carry on the exploitation. Are they going to bypass the local workers, depriving high paying jobs to people in the vicinity ?
When the chinese bought the oil field in Alberta, it was alledged they have considerable oil potential on their own land and wanted to learn more advanced technology here. Oh yeah !??.....Then why can't we gather a 20 000 north american workforce to go drilling on their own land for them instead ? And how do you think the chinese would react to that ? And it would be closer for our boys to get Classe amps over there !(had to plug that one in order to stay on topic).
Who benefits from the decline of the American middle class? Someone must, or it would not be happening? No? Or is that too simple? Are American oligarchs really being outsmarted by the Chineese oligarchs? I don't believe it. But I've been wrong before.
P.S. Do you ever get the Charlie Brown "blah, blah, blah..." feeling when you hear market analysts on TV? I feel that some years from now, when we are much smarter there will be movies with these guys in a clip and the audience will laugh hysterically.
Only about 30% (4 Trillion) of our debt is foreign - rest we owe to companies and individuals that are in the Federal Reserve program. People and Companies that lend this monies (with gov. guaranteed interest) want, like any lender to increase size of the loan (debt). This is done by lowering government income so that we have to borrow more. The only government income are taxes. Now it becomes obvious why some want to lower taxes as much as possible.
I might be wrong on this but when stock market was over-speculated and bubble burst in 30s government placed tight regulations and we had no problems for 50 years until Reagan started deregulating financial sector in 80s. Same Reagan left us with 3.7 Trillion debt. Housing crisis started not because people suddenly got less responsible but because banks started giving questionable loans knowing they can sell them to other banks (lack of regulations). Classe! (on the subject)
China hasn't done anything to us. We did it to ourselves by believing Rush and his thousand clones and the Faux News propagandist blather. We may have elected GWB twice - or we may not have - but we got the Bush-Cheney Regime nonetheless and now we are poised to get much worse. Fiddler says his world isn't burning, maybe mine is. What he fails to recognize here, and what all the free marketers overlook, is the simple fact that it is OUR WORLD. We all live here and we all need to be concerned about how we care for our home. We need to place the well-being of our home above profits and personal ideology. We need to care about making our home as safe and sane, as compassionate and purposeful and as prosperous and kind as we can manage. The "us vs. them" mentality and diviseness perpetuated by the 1% is deliberate. They want us blaming each other instead looking at the real problem, them. The ultra wealthy strive to deprive their fellow citizens of unemployment benefits they were legally required to pay into. They refer to the mandated savings accounts we all have in Social Security as entitlements. That's like calling their cash stockpile an entitlement. It is. They are entitled to their own money just as all of us are. Why do they want to stop us from collecting our own funds? This goes on and on. If you lost a $65,000/yr. job, do you think it went to an illegal immigrant? Nope. The "job creators" took your job to create one in Asia for 15% of what they were paying you. Classe may have held out as long as they could before surrendering to the reality that we would find another alternative rather than pay what it costs to make the stuff in Canada. So it was China or Chapter 11. OOPS!! Does Canada have Chapter 11?
Well! This has been an interesting thread. Let's see the jobs report tomorrow. Seems things are less crappy than a year ago, though as we know, all jobs are not created equal. I wonder what the median household income looks like today versus 3 years ago, 10 years ago, and 25 years ago (in constant dollars). All I know is that is a lot easier today for a young couple to buy a house in line with their real income and ability to pay - no hocus pocus loans creating the illusion of affordability, or the false sense that RE always goes up in value, at least not at 20-30% a year.
Geez, this thread has really gone viral and no one has brought up religion yet. You American boys are well behaved.
Classe did not move to China. It is B&W, the now parent company, that moved Classe to China. Executive decisions such as this one are no longer made in Montreal. I do not own Classe but i have read great product reviews in TAS and Stereophile over the years. Me, i will never own a $15K amp or preamp with a made in China badge. This is how you have to look at this; would you own/buy a Ferrari, Porshe, Alfa Romeo made in China? Would you own/buy a $43K Audio Research REF 610T made in China? Well let me answer that for you. You may have to some day. ARC is now owned by a private equity firm with holdings in a variety of global industries. How fast you think that this conglomerate can pull the pin on ARC? Here's the next thread: "Audio Research move to China". How viral would that go? Classe did not move to China. You're just having a bad dream.
"Fiddler says his world isn't burning, maybe mine is. What he fails to recognize here, and what all the free marketers overlook, is the simple fact that it is OUR WORLD. We all live here and we all need to be concerned about how we care for our home. We need to place the well-being of our home above profits and personal ideology. We need to care about making our home as safe and sane, as compassionate and purposeful and as prosperous and kind as we can manage."
Sure it's our world (in theory), but I can only control my portion of it. And if 47% of Americans aren't paying into the system, then it isn't as much of "OUR WORLD" after all.
That's the problem with liberals. They want everything to be fair for everyone. The only "fair" is a fairytale.
I'm sorry. I don't apologize for being successful and having a very high income (relatively speaking - Bill Gates excluded). I have earned every dime of it by working hard, taking huge risks and simply being blessed (and I'm in church on Sundays).
My success hasn't come at anyone else's expense either. The notion that success has to come on the backs of others is simply class warfare and it's stupid. The over-whelming number of successful people I know personally did it the same way I did - by working hard, risking everthing and treating people fairly. And just in case you are wondering, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth with any advantages. My spoon was a wooden spoon. My Dad was a truck driver his whole life and my Mom a secretary. But they taught us hard work and ethics.
If you or anyone else is not as successful as you want to be, don't blame me. I have nothing to do with your life and the decisions you make.
I am sick and tired of hearing the whining and namby-pamby, us vs. them class warfare rhetoric. Get off of your butt and go find as much success as you want. If your world is burning down, then figure out how to put the fire out. Since the beginning of time, some have been more successful than others. Simply human nature.
Life ain't fair, so quit complaining and figure out how to work within the system we have (or try to change it, that's what our Democratic Republic is about). But in the mean time, it may be hugely helpful to do something more productive and more risky than hanging out in an audiophile forum all day.
The reason why healthcare didn't include selling across state lines is that the state with the least restrictive laws would be where they'd relocate to to avoid any legal recourse from the patients they'd screw out of their money. Rockerfeller set the mold way back when after he messed things up and the state prosecutors went after them through corporate laws. He offered his company to the state that would lower their values and relax legislation governing corporations the most and the rest, as they say, is history.
And to everyone else who is scratching their heads as to why American corporations are doing this is simple: they don't see themselves as American and haven't for decades. This is just a place to park their asses as they siphon off money to offshore accounts. But now that model is becoming endangered as someone here, stateside, set up some kind of mailbox clearing house in some mid west state with relaxed standards as an alternative to what one would find in the Caymans. Now you don't have to go overseas.
Lets face it, They see our view as quaint and out of date. This is beyond repair but will require diligence to slow it down. Check out this trader's view of things: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC19fEqR5bA
They've got it both ways, coming and going. Ever since the 'Santa Clara' case, we were led to believe that corporations are people and as such, have the same rights, and since they can't speak, money is their language.
I'll believe corporations are people when one can have a sigmoidoscopy, be declared incompetent, do jail time for crimes instead of paying a fine without admission of guilt, get married, get drafted, be made to wait at the DMV, be stripped searched, take a piss test, or buy me a drink.
Who owns corporations? People. Very often stockholders all over the country.
You probably have no problem with labor unions over-whelmingly speaking solely to Democratic and liberal causes with their millions and million of dollars, but shame on corporations for doing the same thing.
And I find it hilarious that the liberals and OWS crowd are protesting Wall Street when Wall Street gave 3 times as much money to Obama and the Democrats. Can you say hypocrisy (or maybe just clueless or uninformed or both.)
What unions gave to Obama for his election (oh those millions!) equaled a weeks worth of the contributions for McCain for the entire election cycle.
Please.
Unions represent about 9% of the workforce and my oh my they are a ferocious bunch, aren't they? Something to be afraid of.
As for Wall Street, from what I've remember, they just hedged their bets and gave about the same to both parties until it got to the end and they saw just how insipid the republicans were. They are not fools and they knew Obama was given a turd wrapped in a ribbon. It wasn't supposed to manifest itself until after the election but everything blew up in our faces well before he took office. He's not perfect and he wasn't my first choice (I'm not a democrat) but I'd be damned if I were to vote for the same people who got us in the mess to begin with.
As for OWS, they were protesting WS along with Obama, or didn't you notice? Take off the blinders.
And as for those stockholders all over the country, they amount to a fraction of the population. Maybe rose colored glasses magnify, I didn't know that. Its not people like you and me. Most sit on boards of many different companies and yes, they act collectively as they have the same agenda: to make as profit as possible. About 1/2 of 1% personally give more than $200 in an election cycle. That's not that many stockholders now is it? And its the super wealthy (oligarchs) that sit on those boards.
Nonoise, you are clueless. The unions gave hundreds of millions of dollars to Obama and the Democrats. And it was Obama who spent more money than any candidate in history. You need to check your facts.
"As for Wall Street, from what I've remember, they just hedged their bets and gave about the same to both parties until it got to the end and they saw just how insipid the republicans were."
That's so ridiculous on the face of it and a lie. Surely, you can do better than to make up your own facts. Obama had record breaking campaign cash long before "the end" of the campaign. Man, it's hard to respond to that kind of spin and lies.
"About 1/2 of 1% personally give more than $200 in an election cycle. That's not that many stockholders now is it? And its the super wealthy (oligarchs) that sit on those boards."
Once again, clueless. The individual stockholders don't have to make campaign contributions to benefit from corporate donations. What part of the process don't you understand.
If the corporations are contributing to protect their business interests, then the individual stockholder (large or small benefits) as well.
Now I understand why you are here complaining so much about the rich and how the system is screwing you. You don't get it or just don't want to do what it takes to dramatically improve your cicumstance.
It's probably someone else's fault too if you are over-weight, unattractive, short, bald, have self-induced health problems, addictions, etc.
Man-up and beat the system at it's own game or at least learn to play the game to your benefit. But whining about the rich and sitting on your butt in the comfort of your computer screen is only going to do one thing, keep your status in life right where it is or worse.
I just lost all respect for Classe and would not own any of their gear even if it was made in Canada. I'd bet the Chinese Classe gear will not hold it's value so well.
Your hatred of Obama is palpable. You can almost feel it. And your personal attacks are juvenile, at best. I guess I struck a nerve.
Can't wait for the flame war, eh? Think you're pretty clever? Let's go point by point, shall we? Pay attention now.
The unions gave about $300 million. That's all. Obama personally garnered over $745 million from other sources, like WS and Pharma and Big Medicine which promised 2 election cycles worth of donations in return for no single payer. On another note, why would any union give to republicans?
As for WS, they gave over $88 million to dems and over $67 million to reps. with about $42 million going to anyone on a banking committee. Real out of balance, wouldn't you say?
The 1/2 of 1% able to afford to give more than $200 in an election cycle is valid. Prove me wrong. And you'd have to be pretty dense to think that anyone with that kind of money wouldn't donate to keep that money. But I beg the point, don't I? And yes, those people, above all others, are definitely shareholders. Not all are big, granted. But that was never my point. It's painfully obvious that small shareholders would benefit and good for them.
The rest is basically drivel so what's the point of addressing it? It's one thing to have a belief system. It's necessary to get on in life with. But you come across as a bit unhinged.
What's drivel is your lack or personal responsibility and blaming the wealthy, Big Pharma, the Republicans and anyone else you can think of for your place in life.
And my personal attacks are juvenile? It was you who started attacking all of the above, which may include me and others here, as well. I guess it's okay to attack folks by proxy as long as you intentionally avoid doing it directly. At least I speak my peace directly.
Sure - I'm the unhinged one. Not sure if you noticed, but it's not me who is here complaining, "Poor me, the rich are ruining my life."
Hey, it's much easier to be a victim than to be a success. Just keep on complaining about how unfair things are and I'm sure your lot in life will improve.
The cold hard truth is that if someone has more than you - it's not their fault. But you don't like the truth do you? It makes life much easier for you if it's someone else's fault, right?
Man, am I sick of the whining that life is not fair and that some have more than others. Sheesh.
Fiddler, (with apologies to Mapman, who's right, but I just have to retort)
It's amazing just how much you read into what I've said (a classic form of deflection) and sorry, but all of what you attribute to me is way off the mark. Sounds like this has been building up for a long, long time. Silly me for playing with the cork. But when that cork is stuck in my face, play with it I will.
What about the figures I gave you? Wasn't that what we were talking about?
Many successful people automatically assume that person complaining about social injustice has to be unsuccessful. They just cannot comprehend that other people, like Warren Buffet, see more than themselves.
He does indeed protesteth too much..:) I like the new look of Audiogon's front page. It bears not even a tangential relation to the subject of China. But then again, just who designed the new look anyway! Foreign or domestic? heh heh.
Fiddler - For starters you need to know that you are not the wealthy we are talking about. You aren't big enough to sniff their socks. Those people have 25 employees in each of their nine homes, three complete flight crews and a staff and crew totaling 40 or so on both yachts. So put your dick away before the laughing starts.
Your screed matches in tone, temperature and terminology with the crap that oozes from talk radio 24/7. You don't sound original, you don't write well and you offer no actual facts or figures other than whatever Rush says.
This country is heavily populated with people who worked hard all their lives and did everything right only to have their pensions subsumed, their mortgages devalued and their hearts broken by those who you so haughtily defend.
If you do the math, you'll find that it is not possible for everyone to be above average, no matter how hard they work or how often they go to church. Every winner has reached that position by overcoming other strivers. That does not mean that the "losers" trained less or lacked ambition. It means that only one person could win the race.
The "black or white" arguments planted in narrow minds by fatuous on-air bigots are simple enough to understand and memorize, as you've demonstrated here, but the actual world we all occupy is more complicated. There are nuances and mitigating circumstances and degrees of difficulty. There are real consequences just as there are real rewards. Your cockiness and smug condescension may put you in a very uncomfortable position one of these days. You would be wise to work on your humility because you have every right and reason to be humble.
Very well said -- not necssarily about Fiddler who I don't really know -- about many folks I do know. Especially the mindless repition of ideological mantras and the black/white, Rush-bite caricatures that you know are not the product of original thinking, nor the reflections of a broad perspective on the human condition and its potential -even if one is a hard nose realist about human behaviour (not always pretty).
I think the new site was defintely designed by a Canadian - all that white space.
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