Chinese DAC's
I have been looking at several DAC's trying to decide which one to put in my system. Some of those DAC's I'm looking at are built and designed in China. Without getting political I don't think trade with China will ever be the same. I hope that these engineers are able to get there products to market. It would sure be a waste of talent.
Thanks for this interesting and necessary observation i did not see... I also own a Fosi low cost amp and happy...
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Thanks for this interesting video... First; Jay’s said " the chinese dac sound incredibly good for their price".. Second: he sell them because as a reviewer he claim they sound too much the same ( designed in the same mold in a way which fact is not surprizing: how do you make incredibly good dac for a given price, if not by discovering the same good recipe ? You dont add tubes or 2R2 architecture for sure... ) Third: Anybody know it will not be a good idea to use a low cost Chinese Dac so good it could be for the price with a 10,000 bucks speakers and a 10,000 bucks amplifier and pre-amp...( the difference between dac design quality is audible then a dac price must match some price level synergy with other gear pieces price)
What any reviewer never said: Never mind the price , what you hear most of the time as defect or qualities did not come for the most part from the separated gear piece but from the system as a whole working in a specific room, controlled room or not, for a specific pair of ears... And no reviewer will say that acoustics matter more than any gear under review he wish to sell to stay in business... Jay’s is like any other reviewer... Truth can be said but only under this acoustics restriction... Who want to study acoustic basics and experiment ? Almost no one because of lack of time, lack of dedicated room, and anyway, an acoustician cost more for his time and materials than most gear system... Acoustics matter more than a dac at any price...Chinese or not.... And As Jay’s say wisely, standardization process, visible in the Chinese dac specs resembling one another, will not define high end for sure, but will serve purpose for those who look for good sound at low cost price... My low cost speakers system satisfy me for my need... If i want high end i go to my headphone AKG K340... Here my chinese dac match well and best my K340 needs for a leaner sound.. it is called synergy...
What matter is what is denied or underestimated by objectivists sticking to their tech specs or subjectivist sticking to their "taste", it is acoustics concepts and parameters use by an audiophile who learn how to use them. Period. This is not in Jay’s video. And it will never be even if he review acoustics panels sold as the ultimate solution.Panels dont replace all acoustics concepts and needs.Sorry.
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Here’s one posted opinion about selling off all his trove of Chinese DACs as expressed by a YouTube reviewer. Take away what you will from it …just sayin’…
https://youtu.be/cwO4tje9QmY?feature=shared
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Yep …. +4 …. It gets graphic in my experiences in two ways: (1) PRICE vs BUILD/PERFORMANCE MATRIX. All audio components are built to their price-point. Moving up the pricepoint strata generally produces a better audio performance. dac. No , it’s not a linear path but it is real. Yes .l, I can hear a meaningful improvement. I heard subtler dynamic gradations, and simultaneous complex musical events were more coherent. The sound seemed more organic. It’s an old story. There’s a point of diminishing returns as the gear gets more expensive but often there is a return…, and it’s not insignificant nor subtle. It’s up to an individual music-lover to decide on the value of such incremental differences. Warren Buffett said it best: “ Price is what pay. Value is what you get…”
(2) Comparing Chinese DACs vs. high-end build competitors made in the rest of the world. DACs are not exempt from having their own bespoke sonic signature primarily because they are much more than flavour of the month latest chips. Too many believe that the magic bullet secret to a good converter lies in simply choosing a “high-end” converter chip. Apparently it’s been reported in articles that many Chinese brands allegedly have the same board designs and parts made in the same factory(ies)
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@ghdprentice + 1 |
It is because i can hear the difference between my 2 actual dac that i propose to anyone instead of buying new dac, masterclass in acoustics instead of audio masterclass... the difference between actual dac technology exist for sure, i can hear them in my low cost system, but does not compare to acoustics parameters variations and differences at all ... All factors matter but there exist a priority order : acoustics before upgrading wheel....
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@ghdprentice + 1 |
@ecat026 Head-Fi is one of the best forums for Chinese component discussions. For example, this Gustard X30 thread has been popular lately. |
I did not say nor claim myself that nobody can hear difference between dac especially from different design... My chinese HIDIZS dac is more detailed than my more organic french NOS dac TDA 1543 By Christophe Mariac...
But i said that it is way more wise to experiment with acoustics parameters and learn basic concepts than buying "upgrading" dac :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOOHneFYGYA
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Just in Time manufacturing came about as way to increase corporate profits. They claimed that warehousing parts and the employees needed to run it were bloated and a wasteful use of money and resources. They claimed we had a stable enough world economy and a robust enough supply chain to keep things running smoothly. Covid laid that canard to rest. It was all about profits and was a stupidly fragile system. Now with tariffs as a means of bribery we are at the mercy of another stupidly fragile and completely avoidable system of patronage masquerading as policy meant to make us great again. That people fall for that is incredible. Those who are open apologists for this new system, attacking an actual manufacturer for expressing her valid point of view are talking out of both sides of their mouths. You can't have it both ways, ladies. To celebrate the dismantling of an old, proven and reliable way of business because it fit your worldview back then, only to berate those that fail by the new way of doing business is laughable. Think about it. You're proposing someone to use the old, discredited method in order to keep up. This stupid, Just in Time method doesn't allow for stockpiling parts and you're saying she should find some way around it which would require a hefty investment (smaller orders are much more costly or not entertained at all) that could go bust as soon as someone changes their mind after taking a bribe to end it for certain select sellers of parts that can again, break down due to his whims. All the best, |
Rereading @brbrock’s OP, it does not sound to me like they are asking for our advise on DACs, rather it’s a lament on how the current trade situation is going to affect the audio industry and it’s increasing reliance on China as a supplier of parts and finished products, using his pending DAC purchase as a basis. Fair question. Short answer, dunno. For me, @panzrwagn nailed it. My advice, buy existing inventory now, or wait an indefinite period of time to see how this plays out. Across the board USD is currently down 9%. kn |
@muvluv okay 😉 |
My SMSL Sanskrit (still only $139) sounds good to me. Got a great write up in audio science review and is in their top performing dacs spec wise. The usb input did fail after a while and I got no help from the company. Still using the optical for cds. I really like the sound of this dac. https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804674580993.html?spm=5261.ProductManageOnline.0.0.4ce14edfRzVGpv&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt |
Manley is promoted as an "American as Apple pie" company with full construction of Manley amps in Chino, CA. So why's she bitching? Because she's been caught with her pants down and more than egg on her face. Best case scenario, Chino is an assembly plant with products being sourced worldwide but that's not what they advertise. Oh, she says she only uses American employees too. Caps and resistors should be sourced from Japan, US or Europe, not China. She should be making her own transformers not out-sourcing to China, and the beautiful powder coated casings, it's a mystery. As Warren Buffett said you don't know who's wearing a swimsuit until the tide goes out. |
@squared80 |
I can't answer that, I don't know her business. I would do 90 days and go from there. She raises her prices regardless of tariffs anyway so I'm not sure why it's such an issue. I'm not sure what her percentage of sales overseas are but I imagine she would have a plan if she's as smart as you think she is. I really don't think she's basing her business continuity on CNN. |
You didn’t answer my question. How much inventory should she have purchased? Enough for 3 months, 6 months, a year or two years? The constant flip flopping going on makes for an incredibly unstable time in manufacturing. Not just from an inventory standpoint, but also from a financial planing, sales prediction standpoint. Almost 96 percent of the world’s population is outside of the U.S., and with countries potentially applying tariffs on U.S. made goods, how are they to plan for these sales? Based on past models? Those have been thrown out the window.
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@texasblues1959 I’m not clueless my systems sound great for music and that’s what’s it’s all about |
@squared80 i heard a difference between all those dacs the sux sounds best and fullest while also the Topping Centaurus R2R sounds good using the eq |
I didn't say she was stupid, I'm sure she's very intelligent. However, her speech tells me she's overly emotional, if not, a low-key political activist. ""we are all getting F@cked by the FELON." I don't think she's out there keying hate symbols into Teslas, but I'm positive she wouldn't like it if one of her employees wore a MAGA hat either. |
To answer your question, "she should be able to plan for this, right?". Yes. I've worked in manufacturing for 25 years and we live and die on parts availability and when pricing is expected to go up or availability is uncertain, etc. we would be more aggressive about buying critical parts and stocking them to stay ahead. It's just risk management really and if her business is ISO 9001 certified (not sure if it is) then she should be fully aware of what risks are on the horizon as they would talk about it regularly. |
@muvluv Clueless. |
…the retailer cost of doing business has not gone up. If an item (wholesale price) was $100 and the the tariff added $10, the item is sold for $220. The retailer is making an extra $10. I’m in retail and my vendors just added the percentage of increase to them and are suggesting to pass along just the $$ of increase I’m charged. My cost of doing business hasn’t gone up. My rent hasn’t gone up, my electricity hasn’t gone up, I didn’t give a raise to my employs. The thing that happened is the buying power of my $$$ went down. |
Recommendations: 1. A ladder DAC under $1200 - Holo Audio Cyan2 (I have a Holo Audio DAC now for over 5 years and it is still better than many and many options for sound signatures. Only one then that could handle DSD1024 and PCM1536 even though there really wasn't any original music sources available). Othen alternative is the LAIV mini - For ~$800, it's gem. Both DACs are extremely well-made/engineered with high quality parts. Holo may not be selling right now but the LAIV importer told me that he has some inventory in the US, so puircahses are not subject to any tarrifs until the US supply is gone. 2. Chip DACs - anything with the AKM4499 - hands down the best sounding chip and engineers' fav to work with. 3. PS Audio Directstream MK1 - The first version that has been in the market for a number of years that retailed for $7000 originally; has been selling for about $1600 with the bridge II ethernet connection. The DAC is a programmable chip designed/made by PS Audio, so there are many firmwares over the past 5years for different sound signatures that will satisfy just about anyone. Great dealand my choice if you can find one for $1600 and under with the bridge.
Well, this my 3rd post in this forum ever. Too many choices out there - I listened to at least 20 DACs before settling on mine, Good luck!! |
@texasblues1959 thank you, my systems sound great using those dacs you have to hear them before you knock them I also use mainly all pro pa equipment that may be why they sound so good for me and others |
@muvluv Like I said just okay. Glad it's top shelf stuff for you. |
I have met Eveanna Manley and she is neither stupid nor an "activist." She is actually one of few companies that successfully straddles cost+ pricing for the Pro Studio segment and the price-to-market philosophy that prevails in hi-end home audio. To take a generous view of the tariffs, Trump is Keynes’s "visible hand" of government intervening in free-market economics, but in reality represents an injection of chaos rather than serious economic policy. Keynes justified such economic intervention as a force for stabilization, not chaos. High-end audio is a luxury niche. Absent stable pricing and faith in supply/demand, the consumer of luxury goods must decide whether to make a rational purchase decision along traditional lines, or to defer gratification until price stability is re-established. From the POV of a US manufacture, the dilemma is far more serious along the lines that Manley discusses regarding the need for a stable business plan for a foreseeable future. For my part, all audio purchases are temporarily on hold unless at pre-tariff prices. If the general consumer adopts a similar position we will have a recession. |
@texasblues1959 what do you mean I went from the 9 to 9pro and sux for smsl all sounded good on xlr and topping Centaurus and also sounds really good using xlr |
@muvluv Yet and they are okay not good.
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You know that's not what I said. Manley automatically increase their prices every year, my dealer is always complaining. Manley don't hold the perceived value of the Big Mc, not my taste either. So the stupid bint Eveanna has just confessed to the audiophile community that a Manley amp is mostly made by Chairman Mao and the people's army. Friends like this don't need enemies....lol |
The problem with the value proposition is if we all know a tariff is being applied we understand we're paying an extra tax, ruins the value for me and likely many others. I don't want to pay an extra tax, especially to a gvt. I don't support. I'm laying low for the time being, not purchasing non-essentials.
As for Chinese dacs or any product/service, same as any other country, variable quality universal, politics don't play a part in my purchase decisions. You may not like China but vast majority of people benefiting from their technology/services. |
The US and EU has created the monster that is China and now it’s time to get off the smack of cheap imports. I know Manley put up their prices every year, tariffs or not, inflation. If the US debt is not paid down you’ll be taking wheelbarrows of cash to the supermarket. But you say the Green New Deal was supposed to address this! Janet Yellen stone faced lied and said printing another trillion dollars would not cause inflation. No such thing as a free (Biden)lunch. |
So, should she have stocked parts for 3 months, 6 months, a year, two years worth of production? The, up until recently, stable global supply chain, means people don’t keep big inventories of parts. Real time logistics and shipping has taken care of the need to sit on large inventories. But, she should be able to plan for this, right? |
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fine idea except you can be 100% assured that they use parts that are imported. As has been pointed out, the global economy is too intertwined to say the solution is to just buy American, or from whatever country you live in. Buying 100% American means you won't be buying much of anything. |
There are two discussions on yesterday’s Weekly Update that are joined at the hip and in both instances, I think the OPs (and some of the discussants) are missing the key point that a forum like this should underscore, without rancor. First, there’s the person responsible for the "Chronos tweak at AXPONA" thread. He is beside himself that he can’t buy a novel (admittedly mysterious) product because it costs $2500. His wife would go for $1500; the poster says that if they get a US distributor, that person will hopefully tell the manufacturer that the product is "overpriced." Maybe, maybe not. The OP assumes that the (to him) exorbitant price is simply wrong and presumably exploitative without knowing anything about the decision to make the cost what it is. Even if the "reason" for the $2500 price tag is simply how much profit the manufacturer wants to realize, that’s the truth a potential purchaser has to deal with. Jayctoy needs only to decide whether the value proposition is there for him. Why does anyone waste need to their breath shouting about snake oil and PT Barnum? Either you feel the investment is worth it from a sonic standpoint or you don’t. Same thing with this "Chinese DACs" thread. It’s not clear how a global trade war is going to pan out but there will likely be an increase of the cost of Chinese goods to American consumers. Again, it’s a value proposition and opinions/discussions about that on AudiogoN ought to limit themselves to audio considerations alone. That doesn’t mean there aren’t geopolitical aspects to the story and that one’s feelings about them can’t inform one’s personal decision to buy or not. But one has to remember that the product hasn’t changed; it is what it is. What forum members can usefully ring in on is the audio quality of the Chinese product compared to non-Chinese alternatives and leave the question of value – "is it worth it at the price" – to the person considering buying the item. |
Spot on. That is why most of the non-US world uses the value added during its contribution to the production of an item as the basis for revenue collection. In Europe it is called a Value-Added Tax (VAT) and in Australia it is a flat 10% Goods and Services Tax (GST). For example, if I assemble a product and sell it for $1,000 I have to add 10% GST ($100) and remit the GST to the government. If the parts cost say $400 I have to pay my suppliers $40 extra for GST, but I get that back when squaring up with the government. My value add is $600 and the net tax on my contribution is $60. Every contributor wherever they are located only gets slugged for their bit! Australia’s GST applies to everything with the exception of some essentials like food. It is collected by the federal government but given to the states to spend! There is no sales tax. Private imports are normally at a 10% advantage compared with local products, because it is not worth the hassle of collecting GST on small items - around $1,000. So we actually subsidise most US imports. And we buy much more from the US than we sell to the US. Our economists have worked out that so-called ’tariffs’ ascribed to countries are actually the ratio of trade imbalance to total trade - not actual financial imposts at all. I agree that the world will never be the same again. Short term we are pleased the US banned our beef because the Chinese are now taking it all to replace US beef, and paying 40% more. Unintended consequencies indeed! |
I bought my Chinese made Gustard X26 Pro on Amazon a few years back. I enjoy the clarity and soundstage I get, particularly using the I2S input. In my room it sounded better than a Chord Cutest and a similarly priced Benchmark. I just got on Amazon and looked at the prices and I don't think they have gone up on Gustard products since the tariffs. I assume you all know that you can audition a Gustard DAC at home and if you don't like it you can drop it off at Whole Foods (at least in the US) |
i dont have topping dac, i own a french NOS dac and a Hidiz dac... And a very costly dac as you suggested dont couple well with low cost products... i am interested more by acoustics basic than by gear pieces...budget command and knowledge beat upgrades if not it replace it with a satisfying alternative.
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