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great units of both types available in your price range...to me, part of the decision involves whether changing the DAC every few years is of interest to you... |
Thanks, I like the Cambridge option. Keep them coming!
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The Less Loss Echo End Original looks very interesting anyone hear that Dac? Audio Note Dacs?
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I picked up a used Moon Audio 260D -- which is both a CDP and transport -- some months back, and couldn't be happier. I love it both when used as a player and when streaming into the DAC. I believe it costs about $3,300 new these days, but can be had for a tad less than half that used, should you get lucky.
I'll say this for sure: I've been playing CDs that I've had forever, and have been enjoying many of them as never before.
(No affiliation with Moon Audio, needless to say -- just a happy listener.)
-- Howard
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I use a Mojo Audio EVO DAC (base version) r2r design with a SimAudio 260DT (transport only version) . To my ears very engaging sound.
For what it is worth I had the Cambridge transport in my system prior to getting the Mojo and while it was a pretty good match with the EVO moving up to the SimAudio gave more body and weight to the music . I’d recommend getting a transport that is more commensurate with the DAC of your choosing- YMMV |
My Audio Note Dac may be the best purchase I’ve made for my system. I have a DAC2.1x Signature which I had upgraded by an authorised service specialist.
It's paired with a PS Audio PWT transport.
Sublime sonics, smooth, with outstanding realism.
With your budget, you should be looking at a Level 3 or 4 (used) Dac.
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@bobheinatz I run an Audio Note Dac-3 Signature, an older mid-90s version, recently upgraded the output caps and it sounds fantastic. The current crop of AN Dacs sound great and for a lot of us the AN's are an end of game Dac they just sound like music.
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I own my AN thanks to a recommendation by @jond
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Seems to me you'll have greater flexibility in terms of pleasing your ears if you go with separates. DACs can vary enormously in their presentation.
John Darko once used a "cake" analogy, contrasting those who prefer to "taste cake" to those who prefer to "taste flour, sugar, butter and eggs".
If you're used to vinyl, you may find a good many DACs are too clinical in terms of breaking the music down into its constituent "ingredients". . . or, you may find their ultra-resolution very exciting. Who knows? You'll have to demo some and see. If you know you prefer to "taste cake", I'd second the R2R recommendation.
BTW; like two other posters, here, I use the Moon 260DT (transport version). |
Getting digital to equal the quality of a $15,000+ analog set up is not an easy task. You must do everything right. You can begin by tossing the idea that you want to play physical disks. Start ripping your CDs and SACDs to a hard disk. Not only better convenience, but better SQ and a saving of cash you will need. Do research on the best DAC for you. Sigma delta chips, multibit chips and discrete D2D devices have all been proven to make great DACs when properly implemented. Some are more detailed; some are more "relaxed." Choose the flavor of the month if you wish. Since you’re an analog person pay careful attention to the analog section of the DAC. Discrete sections should outperform those based on chip op amps. Finally, just as a TT has to feed the phono pre a good signal from the LP, you will have to feed quality bits from your HD to your DAC. That will take research too. Good luck! I did it. You can do it. |
get a sony scd-1 vsei modded level 6
or a modwright modded sony or marantz s-cdp w tube output and tube rectification
spend the rest on more cd’s
good luck n happy listening |
Listening to my Sony SCD-1 vset modded Level 5+ tonight and it always puts a smile on my face. Listening to Dark Side of the Moon on SACD is always a treat. |
Another +vote for CDP. And SACD player too!
Happy Listening!
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Ripped CDs have the convenience and better portability. Many claim a good CDP sounds better, though. For CD playing, I’d go with the PS Audio DirectStream DAC paired with their Perfect Wave SACD transport, $12,500 for the pair. The DAC is a Stereophile A+ rated model. If you can wait a few months, PS Audio should have a MK II version of the DAC out in the December to March time frame, and although pricing hasn’t been announced, I expect that to increase the package price by $1000-$1500. The MK II will be FGPA based, like it’s predecessor, but have a lot more room on the arrays for great programmability. |
OP, at your budget you have outstanding alternatives. I would favor the transport-DAC route since DAC technology evolves and every few years a new development may strike your fancy. Also if you ever decide to add other digital sources such as a streamer then you are set to go. I would spend 1/3 on the budget and 2/3 on the DAC |
It is a very interesting question, since there are not many brands that are still producing and selling cd players.
Your choise, to name the few obvious ones, could be between the likes of Accuphase,Burmester, Dcs, Esoteric, Luxman, Metronome,Meridian or Luxman (some others as well, I guess)
I had similar dilemma recently and I have choosen single unit, Burmester 089.(had Metroneome, Dcs and Burmester before, as well)
I would be very curious to read any ’shoot out’ between single players and combos that are in that price range.
I guess that only by comparing them you will find out what sounds better for you.
I shop at the dealer who holds many brands and who gives the opportunity to try the units at home.
At one point I was considering Rockna Dac and some transport.
His advice, in my case (my collection is mostly jazz from 50’s and 60’s) was that for ’my’ music and that ’production’ ,dedicated red book cd player and not dac, is ’better’ solution, since many of dacs sound best with dsd, hi rez or other and were not made to play the rb primarily.
Also, not many really 'high class' transports are there to be found as well.
Than again, maybe he was just trying to sell me the cd player, as it is a not a much sought product now,ha,ha.
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Thanks for all the great input. Keep them coming.
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If you want to get close to analog I recommend an Audio Research CD9se. This is the best sounding CD player / DAC I have heard. The tubes allow for a wonderful midrange bloom and natural analog sound. I actually did a side by side comparison with a DAC costing $5K more and actually preferred the natural sound of the CD9se better.
ARC stopped manufacturing them recently because the company producing the transports stopped making them. But it should still be possible to find one, or used. |
@ghdprentice You've pretty much hit on why its a crapshoot buying a CD player these days that transport goes and it's a boat anchor.
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Jond, I would say that there are still reputable compaines (aldo perhaps with pricey products) that will offer excellent cd players and provide service for it for years to come.
Now, we are already speaking about 'death of pc audio' as streamers are new 'hit' on the market, but still with some imminent problems.
Imho, the 'pc audio' (in one way or another) has never become the 'buy it and forget about it ' package.
Too many variables, in software and in 'hardware' too.
That does not mean that it cant sound good (or great) but more often than not, it requires more time and effort (money too) than great vinyl rig, yet alone use of a cd player.
Arguments for it, acces to more music, ease and speed of use, etc, were never an issues for me at first place, but that is just my personal opinion
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@jond:
"You've pretty much hit on why its a crapshoot buying a CD player these days that transport goes and it's a boat anchor."
Depends on whether a company has transports stashed away for future repairs or not. |
@jond …
I am sure Audio Research has a huge supply of transports for repair so their customers never become boat anchor owners… it is a reputable company. Also, I actually do not use the transport part, I use it as a DAC. I had a Berkeley Alpha 3 ($22K) in my system for comparison for a couple weeks. The difference in sound was absolutely minuscule in my system, but I preferred the ARC. I have compared CDs to streaming the same content, on my system and there is no difference. CDs as a media will go away and less and less companies will make them. So, buying the CD player for the sound of the DAC is really what you are doing unless it is a transport only. There is no fundamental difference in the media like there is in analog. The CD just has digital files on them. Unless you just like futzing with physical media there is no fundamental benefit. |
Hi,
i head the same issue 2 years a go, CDA or CD player, my approach was Booth. I've decidem to go for a 2nd Hand cp player unit, and spend most of the money on the best DAC/Streamer I could.
Currently it is easy to find a great CD player that can work has a transports, no the DAC sido that is not só true.
The digital world is currently going in the streaming direction, if that is good or bad, is debatable. For shore I Will keep buying CDs.
Hoje it help
Fil
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Both work equally good just a matter of preference but if budget is a problem just go with the transport and dac because it leaves you with more options and price points.
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In the price range up to $15K you can get a excellent sounding digital system with CDT & DAC. The Pro-Ject audio CDT is an excellent source. There are a few reference DACs that will compete with your vinyl rig in that price range. The R2Rs DACs can be something special but just because there is an R2R does not mean anything if not if utilizing a proper design. In our comparisons the 6SN7 Sabre chip DAC sounds just as good as our DHT R2R DAC , it is a much simpler design but just has a different flavor to the sound.
Happy Listening. |
"Unless you just like futzing with physical media there is no fundamental benefit."
Well, I guess I'm old-fashioned and clearly, the "futzing" and the "benefit"
are in the mind of the beholder!
I like books-- forget the kindle-- and I like CDs. There's something very reassuring about being able to grab a title from a wall of cds, actually hold it in my hand, read liner notes for the umpteenth time, etc.Maybe there's ritualized aspect I find comforting but I liked analog gauges on my dashboard, way back when and I can't see that in terms of ritual.
I'd rather wash a carrot and cut it up with a knife than buy a bag of pre-washed, pre-sized, pre-peeled, ready-to-eat "karits".
The last thing I want is for my audio system to feel like one more damned computer interface. . .as if they're aren't enough of those that I have to contend with, already.
Won't be long before we're all born with a keyboard implanted in one arm and a screen in the other. . . gonna have to memorize passwords for all the basic bodily functions...
I'm in no hurry to go there !
To paraphrase the Kinks: "I'm a twenty-first century man but I don't wanna be here". |
this isn’t what the op is inquiring about, but to the discussion immediately below, one must remember that cd’s bear the music for the owner, like owning the music files, while streaming is hearing the music sent to you by the owner/provider
wifi, internet or lan goes down, the cdp will let you hear the music you own
if your hard drive or local computer goes down, or gets corrupted, then the music files you thought you had available can be lost
yes you can lose or damage a cd too... but in that physical form it is more durable and permanently accessible |
Have a look at the www.cocktailaudio.com products. Transports, streamer and DAC (+ ripper if needed). I found them on the web by a fluke and bought the X45 Pro and it is very good. AG 🇦🇺 |
I posted that comment about CD players and ran out the door so yes if ARC has backup transports that’s good but if they don’t you're basically out of luck. And its good it has digital inputs that greatly enhances the functionality. My comment wasn’t really a dig at ARC the same thing has happened with Wadia they can’t or won’t repair older models due to no parts being available.
Not sure about streamer longevity but I will say I’ve run my streamer, an Auralic Aries Mini, for 5 years pretty much nonstop with no issues, knock on wood.
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500 cd's sound like something you could rip. I would go that route. Either buy a server that can rip directly or buy a small computer (if you don't have one) for ripping and a server for playing music. Add a good dac if that is not built into the server.
If you don't want to rip everything then I would recommend a CDP + dac. |
Personally going through the same decision. After thinking of options over a long time, have come to the conclusion that I am going to audition the new Esoteric K-05XD (and 07XD) when it comes out later this year. The K-03XD has gotten rave reviews, but it’s out of my price range ($15K). You might want to consider it. I came to the conclusion since I thought that for $7.5K-10K (not sure what MSRP will be exactly for the 2 units), you get probably the best CD transport on the planet, plus a phenomenal DAC. Only downside is they are not separate. But it does have all kinds of digital inputs, including USB (but not IS2). Part of the reason I’m going this direction is that I do want an SACD capable transport, there aren’t many, I think just PS Audio and McIntosh. And with each of those, you essentially have to go with their DAC to get the proprietary hand-off for pure DSD.
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@fred60, I have the new PS Audio PST SACD transport connected to my Holo May KTE using I2S. The Holo May KTE has 4 user selectable I2S configurations and Alt #2 works without a glitch with the new PS Audio transport. I've played both regular CDs and SACDs with no issues. The sound of this combination is fantastic!
@bobheinatz, I highly recommend the Holo May KTE and PS Audio SACD transport. You'll be able to play CDs and SACDs plus if you want to get into streaming later, you can do that as well. The May has 2 I2S input connections as well as USB, coax and a few others.
I have a highly tweaked streaming setup:
Router extender > Triode Wire Labs ethernet cable > Finisar SM Optical transreceiver > Sonore Optical Module Deluxe with Uptone LPS 1.2 linear PS > OS fiber optic cable > Finisar SM optical transreceiver > Etherregen with Paul Hynes SR4T LPS and AfterDark OCXO clock with its own Paul Hynes SR4T LPS, Triode Wire Labs ethernet > Aurender N100H > Curious Evolved USB > Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker> Curious USB > Holo May KTE. All components are connected to my Equi=Tech 2RQ balanced power conditioner.
I stream Qobuz with the above setup and the SQ is excellent as it should be given the plus $15K cost including the May KTE. The PS Audio SACD transport and the May KTE are $11.5K and they will provide sound that is a bit better than my streaming setup (I think). I'm also a analog guy at heart. I have a Rega P10/Apheta 3 and a Linn LP12 w/Ekos SE arm, Radikal PS, Keel chassis, with the Luxman EQ-500 and Zesto Andros vacuum tube phono stages. My digital streaming setup and my PS Audio transport/DAC compete very well with my analog setup. So if you're looking for a CD transport/ DAC setup that will complete with your analog system, I highly recommend PS Audio SACD transport and the Holo May KTE DAC. I also considered the less expensive Jays Audio transport but I wanted the PS Audio's SACD capability and the cost difference wasn't a big deal for me. |
@jond so yes if ARC has backup transports that’s good but if they don’t you're basically out of luck one quick email to greg c at arc will take care of this, he can confirm yay or nay |
Everyone seems to pitch what they own...the Luxman D10x is the endgame player for me...best digital I have ever heard or owned!
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I realize that everyone’s entitled to his or her opinion. BUT this thread gives me the impression that some contributors are in a time warp writing as though it’s 10 or 15 years ago. Physical media has really gone the way of the 8-track tape, except for delivering the media to you, but not to your DAC.
The music can be entirely yours if you copy your disks, buy new ones and copy (though I prefer buying used CDs) or download music files from commercial sites. Most who commit to hard disk have a backup disk. They’re cheap enough. You will also have the opportunity to stream. Some like to do that at intervals to try out music for eventual purchase.
Also, not all bits are the same. It matters how the bits are managed as they flow into your DAC. The "bits are bits" argument was settled a long time ago. It is simply not true. A very good disk player that would be required to meet your standard will be quite expensive, is already obsolete, and can be outperformed in SQ by more up to date devices once your media is on hard disk.
Finally, as so often happens here, many are advising you buy what they have bought and what pleases them. You have to figure out what you what in a digital set-up to meet your needs. It's easily as complicated these days, maybe more, than picking a TT, arm, cartridge and phono pre. |
Music Direct has two open box Esoteric SACD players listed, both for under 8K. Check them out. |
Go with separate transport and dac. Check out the Wyred for sound 10th anniversary dac, one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with a $5,000 Japanese cartridge and he said it was every bid as analog sounding and I have the dac as well and I totally agree, it's not cheap it's $4,500 US but it beat up on a lot more expensive dacs from Cos, Mytek,Chord,SimAudio. |
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melm...Some cd players today do support streaming..with digital in’s and out’s...like my Luxman. Not as archaic as you think.
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@aolmrd1241…
Good point… perhaps that is not as well known as I thought. I assumed at this point most high end companies have positioned their CD players to be DAC / CD players. When I bought a Sim Moon 650D about ten years ago it was advertised as a DAC with a transport. As I have pointed out elsewhere, I use my ARC CD9se as a DAC and seldom use the transport. I haven’t done a lot of research on other CD players. But I would think anyone in the market for a CD player are auditioning it as a DAC as well. A CD player is a one box mechanical transport, dedicated streamer and DAC. |
@ aolmrd1241Yes, of course. My Oppo 105 has had streaming for a long long time. But the question for me is always SQ, just like whether reading data off a CD or off an HD yields better SQ. Will the combo unit stream as well as a dedicated streamer--always remembering that the quality of the bits delivered to the DAC matters. What I meant to say was obsolete was the use of disk readers, except for ripping. |
I’d go with “georgehifi” and “melm” - rip your cd’s to FLAC files on a solid state drive (not hard drive) and play via a good streamer to an R2R dac like Holo Audio, Denafrips, AGD, Yggdrasil, or the bargain MHDT.
I use the Bryston BDP-2 to the Yggy - and never look back! Can’t beat the sound or the convenience. |
I listen to cheaper vinyl rig rega RP8 with apheta MC... But now get same enjoyment from cd listening to pro-ject rs2 cd box transport £2k with chord qutest DAC (which I had already for streamer) ... Although the pro-ject DAC allows IS2 hdmi Connection.
Other makes I looked at but. V expensive in UK were Cec
I like the pro-ject as top loading but sound is amazing |
I listened to the balanced audio technology dac and was dumbfounded. I'd try to get to that if you can and find a good used transport.
Disclosure: I own a bat vkd5 and love the sound. Have a Marantz sa1152 used as transport and use a Sony pcr500 dat as dac (best dac below 10k i ever heard).
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Thanks for all that responsed.
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stuartk490 posts07-17-2021 10:54pm"Unless you just like futzing with physical media there is no fundamental benefit."
Well, I guess I'm old-fashioned and clearly, the "futzing" and the "benefit"
are in the mind of the beholder!
I like books-- forget the kindle-- and I like CDs. There's something very reassuring about being able to grab a title from a wall of cds, actually hold it in my hand, read liner notes for the umpteenth time, etc.Maybe there's ritualized aspect I find comforting but I liked analog gauges on my dashboard, way back when and I can't see that in terms of ritual.
I'd rather wash a carrot and cut it up with a knife than buy a bag of pre-washed, pre-sized, pre-peeled, ready-to-eat "karits".
The last thing I want is for my audio system to feel like one more damned computer interface. . .as if they're aren't enough of those that I have to contend with, already.
Won't be long before we're all born with a keyboard implanted in one arm and a screen in the other. . . gonna have to memorize passwords for all the basic bodily functions...
I'm in no hurry to go there !
To paraphrase the Kinks: "I'm a twenty-first century man but I don't wanna be here"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graet spot on post. Even if I had access to free streaming, , I have no interest. I'm old school. My classical cd collection, about 400+ is now complete, have 50+ LP's just picked up a used Philips turn table as added some rare LP.s But I'm a tube cdp guy I have a Cayin cd17 mark1, a Shanling 3000 (use as Transport) and a jadis JS2 Mark2 DAC. I like the fact all 3 units can take the new high tech opamps, , Tried a 2 types, just landed a 3rd type which is much better the JFET's, off Ebay, Real nice high tech china opamps. All 3 units sound very close, But there is a nuance gain in one over the other. Obviously the Jadis has superior components, but honestly both the cayin and Shanling off 1st Class AAA sonic fidelity. = All 3 have very music DAC's. I'm not into all these new high end expensive DAC's. The only other DAC/cdp tahts interests me (Other than Jadis' cd player) is the PL cdp and DAC. Very nice design . Super build, super DAC. So yeah, tube cdp/tube DAC, very musical and when you tweak with JFET's Class A , you really up the gains. I'm running 4 duals in the Jadis DAC. Shanling takes like 8 singles, 4 duals, and the Cayin 4 singles 2 duals. So cost layout is expensive but well worth the easy upgrade. https://www.ebay.com/itm/274403974731 |
Here is my cayin CD17 mark1 (almost same design as Mark2) in action, made this vid for sale promo, but canceled the ads. when i figured this may work in as a 2nd system later on. If I do set up a 2nd system, , I'll add the LKS Class A opamps. These high quality players are slowly fading away. Music starts at 2:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAmOC9zhS-Y |
I've enjoyed the Exemplar CD players for many years. First started off with Exemplar Denon 2900 tube CD player which I still own and is still running in second system with 2 laser replacements. The Exemplar tube Oppo 105 with outboard power supply is very nice to my ears, very analog and has a nice full sound. Having the option to roll tube is also nice. I spend more time streaming now and know both CD players can become boat anchors at any moment. I hate to say it but both my turntable and CD players are starting to collect dust.
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