On Jeff's Place and the WE16ga wire I still can not say which I like better the WE or Duelund 2.0 Silver? (It has been months!)
Each sounds different.
Duelund richer warmer and WE livelier in the midrange possilbly a more "real" sound midrange.
So far I would say Duelund overall. (Richer more complex)
In in my bedroom system I really liked WE. Smaller system and having a great midrange in a small system is critical. Have not even tried Duelund there.
Am I going to spend the vastly larger amount of money on Duelund Silver in the bedroom? No.
I will rewire speakers internally to WE in the bedroom system as well.
WE is a great low cost tip from Jeff's place!
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The fact that the W.E. wire is competitive with the Duelund silver wire is highly impressive and commendable. If you find the W.E. more "-real" sounding then that is the one I would select ."Real" and "natural " -are my objectives when choosing any audio product.
Charles |
Charles nice to hear from you!
One of the main ideas on this thread was to put in perspective the improvement for the $ each of us spends.
Before this thread I would hear how great something was or was not. But no "great" per $ factor. (Which is key for most of us)
Duelund caps I would recommend them all the time.
Is Duelund Silver 2.0 (version 2) better than WE16ga? I suspect that depends on each system.
At $27 a foot and $32 a foot for 3.0. That is over $1k for 10ft of speaker cables.
i could not recomend someone spend that if they are like me and $1k is quite a bit of money...
I was never in the mega $ speaker cable camp in the first place.
At at the start of this thread I had tried bi-amp'ing (SS) with 2 $5k amps. Total waste of money to me!
When I realised I had a $5k amp running through a $1 tweeter cap, I knew this needed to be thought through.
replacing those $1 caps with even $50 of Mundorf Supreme's in the tweeters would have been VASTLY better money spent. (Then bi-amp'ing)
my guess changing the caps is 10x+ (Maybe 100x) the improvement for 1/100 the cost!
Is Duelund wire worth 20x as much? (As WE16ga) It is not where one should put their money first IMHO.
I would replace every cap and inductor first. Some tubes are Big Bang for the $ as well.
I am so glad Jeff has an open mind! He is not solely in the vintage or new camp? I imagine his blog is of great value to many of us?!
i have to get caught back up! Feel behind. Duelund Silver bypass and this hybrid cap.
Those silver bypass caps are in the values I could use... Hmmmm?
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Charles if I remember correct you are in the triode camp? 300b?
triode amps have always intrigued me.
i know sometime I will have to try one! |
Hi,
Yes, 300b SET for the past six and a half years. I'm very happy with its sound and it will be my last amplifier. It brings the music to life which is all I want.
Charles, |
Some of us also also prefer the 14 and 10 gauge WE options for more of that midrange body and fullness. I also found a dual run of the 16 gauge better sounding than a single run. They all sound a tad different and all these options are first rate. It does really depend on your rig and personal tastes.
The best find I have ever encountered in audio for sure in terms of bang for the buck!
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Volleyguy,
If you ever decide to go the DHT SET route be sure that it has a good quality output transformer and stout power supply. Those are the make or break variables for this type of amplifier. The last two areas to cut corners. I bet Grannyring (Bill) could build you a superb SET amplifier 😊
Charles, |
I feel much better now reading that Jeff says
"It comes as a complete surprise to me that changing one capacitor or resistor in the circuit of the MX110s makes as much difference as I hear when swapping between entire components like preamplifiers or amplifiers in my hi-fi systems".
It is nice to have someone say the same thing as I have been saying indicating it is true or we are both crazy!
My one Fisher is back with 4 changed coupling caps, one new resistor, 4 power tubes now the new Tungsol vs. EH 7591 and changed to fixed bias from cathode bias.
My repair guy did not know if I would be able to tell the difference? (for real)
I do not even recognize the amp!!! If you said to me it was a totally different component that would be MUCH more believable.
In the past I would have been quite upset!
The amp was loaded with Jupiter, Jensen Copper Paper tube and VCap Cuft caps. It sounded absolutely awesome! However it has had running issues...
More or less this amp was left over parts not making main amp which is all Duelund with Jupiter in phono stage.
The 4 caps are Solen caps. The repair guy knew I would not stick with them. They are rated around 6 is my guess by Tony Gee.
The caps that came out Jupiter rated 13 or Jensen (not rated) but in my guess 12 or more.
In in most of my years of testing it has been a cap at a time test.
This kind of a change is just not doable... It is just so far from where it was one can not reference.
My guess is the tubes are just a tiny change. I have changed tubes and yes some are better than others but a tube difference does not equal a cap change. (Possible the different resistor)
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Been an interesting evaluation going down! Really the first I have done.
When you go down the biggest thing I notice is the lack of "alive" tone.
How easily things can sound like Hi-Fi. Really the same as I thought all those years ago on this thread.
All foil can sound real, even vintage.
As someone mentioned on here a long time ago your weak link is very important.
Now I am just figuring out what to buy next.
Moving up to CAST (2nd set on tweeters from VSF on main speakers) or Duelund Hybrid coupling caps over RS.
Best bang?
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Jensen Paper Copper and Jupiter caps back in. Just one poly Solen cap left.
Waiting on Partsconnexion to get more Silver Bypass caps. (Duelund)
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I have been trying to find some info on the Silver Bypass Duelund caps?
Looks like I am going to have go back and read this thread as I can not find much about them?
For me they would not be bypass just the correct value. (At least the values originally sold)
So waiting on them to be restocked in original value. Another strange thing is there does not seem to be a hurry to stock them?
The bypass caps are not going the way of the Alexander line? There is not lots of chatter but Tony Gee really liked them?
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Hi Volley,
I used Duelund silver bypass caps in my current reference speaker crossovers, attempting to bypass Clarity MR caps. I can honestly say it did nothing detectable. Maybe due to the size, about 0.047uF around a 4.7uF cap.
On the other hand, another cap I have, around 8 uF, bypassed with an 0.1uF Audyn True Copper cap was an outstanding imropovement. I tried it on the other cap too but found it changed the timber too much.
If I had the money I would love to try the Jupiter copper foil caps, cheapest from SonicCraft, but ouch.
Best,
Erik
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Hi Eric
Would you like to sell the .047's?
I have never heard the Clarity caps but they have a good reputation.
I do have quite a bit of experience with Jupiter Copper Foil.
I find bypassing is inconsistent as far as improvement so not at all shocked at your findings.
Thanks
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Erik, The new ClarityCap CMR CopperConnect range will benefit even less from bypassing than MR. CMR has the MR series-wound construction and resonance treatments, with the addition of a copper litz lattice embedded in the end cap. This reduces impedance and phase anomalies across the conductive ends that (in traditional metalized film caps) result from oxidized grain boundaries in the tin-zinc end spray. This is a significant improvement. Regards, Dave
ClarityCap OEM Sales |
Hi Dave
Good to hear from you.
The new clarity cap you were saying reduces impedance and phase anomalies common in metalized film caps.
Is it these phase anamolies that I can hear in low cost metalized caps that make sounds that are not natural?
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Hi Volleyguy1, Yes, I think some of what you think of as the "poly sound" is happening in the tin-zinc end spray. Our OEM evaluators of the preproduction versions consistently felt that the copper ends reduce treble glare and smearing, producing a more natural timbre. |
@dgarettson Dave, Great to know!! Would you mind posting this over at the DIYAudio milti-way forum? We’d love to have this info there too. :) I did notice the Clarity MR’s have a little higher ESR than I was expecting. I suspect a lot of the value in bypassing was there. If that problem is reduced, it’s going to be an amazing cap! :) Now, if my tweeter cap could be made smaller than a soda can, that would really be incredible. :) Any idea when our usual sources like Parts Connexion and Madisound may be stocking? How far along are you in the process? Are engineering samples available in usual values, or no? Best, Erik |
@volleyguy1 Sorry I'm not quite ready to let go of them yet, though I should. I am unpacking and about to create a new listening room so I want to wait until I can re-evaluate the speakers they went into first. |
@volleyguy1 Any time there's oxidation there is the potential ( depends on material ) for it acting resistively or like a tiny diode. This can do a lot of things, including limiting the dynamic range at the low end. Musical decay will get cut off too soon. This is my own pet peeve. :)
Not all material that oxidizes has this issue though, I think copper for instance does not.
Best,
Erik |
Hi Erik, Madisound and Parts Connexion will have CMR & CSA in stock soon. I can provide free samples to substantiated manufacturers. I run an occasional group buy for hobbyists and smaller OEMs who need custom values or can’t justify factory MOQs. Since the surface area of the end spray increases with diameter, the benefit of coppering the ends is greatest with the higher value caps. This led us to shift catalogued aspect ratios toward larger diameters and shorter lengths. In turn the narrower metalized film stock employed further reduces ESR. The downside is that fatter caps may not fit in some applications. ClarityCap OEM Sales |
@dgarretson
Fair enough. For comparison, what is the size of the new 4.7uF and 10uF caps at each voltage?
Your explanations would definitely explain my own findings. :) Guess I should stock up on small CM's for bypasses. :)
Best,
Erik |
MR4.7uf/630V 50x50mm vs. CMR 40Lx60D MR4.7uf/400V 50x38D vs. CMR 50x38D MR10uf/630V 65x60D vs. CMR 65x60D MR10uf/400V 65x51D vs. CMR 40x60D |
@dgarretson Not bad at all, so long as they dont come with ittty bitty leads that makes them impossible to mount on a pcb. ;) I look forward to seeing them in stock. do you have any idea when?
Best,
Erik
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Parts Connexion should have them in early September. BTW yesterday I began testing CMR samples in my system, starting with CMR/400V in place of MR in two coupling applications in a Pass XP-25 phono stage. CMR is a big step up, even cold out of the box. ClarityCap OEM Sales |
Hacking at a Pass huh? :)
Hey, what do the letters stand for anyway? CMR?
Best,
Erik
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"Copper Minimal Resonance" |
I will not being doing a test of the Duelund Silver bypass caps.
My understanding is Partsconnexion will not restock the larger sizes.
Unless Eric sells his. :) |
@volleyguy Well now that I know they are in such short supply, I'm putting them up on a Vietnamese auction site at 4x original prices. :)
Best,
Erik
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Oh Vietnam!
Likely a little costly in shipping. I am from Canada.
They might be collectors items though. I bet they will just sell of remaining stock of .01's? |
@volleyguy1 I was being funny, but there are some out of control audiophiles in Vietnam who are crazy for Duelund. :)
Best,
Erik
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Halo All,
I am a newbie hobbyist. This thread has been an inspiration for me, I actually read from page 1, it took me 3 days:) Thank you all for the amazing info.
I am building an external cross over for JR150 speakers. My system consist of Oppo 105, 3 Quad 909 and 2 Quad 405, and Denon AV500n preamp for 7.1 system.
Can someone please give me suggestion about caps in the JR150’s crossover?
The value I need and my plan:
6uf, 7uf, 20.2uf: Clarity MR
12uf (tweeter): Jupiter copper wax or RS (both similar price)
50uf (bass): Clarity MR (Jupiter or RS will burn a hole)
125uf: Clarity MR
4 Inductors: Northcreek?(are they still open?) Goertz alpha core? Solen? WPIO?
3 Resistors: Path Audio
Will this combination give good synergy? I read in this thread the MR can be tweak with small value Mundorf SIO to enhance it even better. or should i use Vcap CuTF instead?
For the tweeter caps, which one do you think will suit my system better? RS or Jupiter? Which one will match the MR better?
I have never try any of these caps, for film cap I usually use auricap xo for my mod.
Hope someone can give me insight.
Thank you,
Dan
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@santodx5
Woah, take it easy! :) That's a lot of money to spend on upgrades. They won't give you different speakers you know.
If you are happy using the JR150's as a learning experience I'd consider series caps with the tweet and mid (if any) the first place to start. What do you have now?
I am a Clarity fanboy, but that's a lot of money you are proposing without having heard them.
Instead, I'd suggest start small, and see what you like. Try Mundorf MKP, Supreme and Clarity MRs in the tweeter. Which do you like best? There's only one way to find out. :)
Replace series resistors with Mills.
Maybe you'd like the Mundorf Supreme's. They add some Disney sparkle to the top end. The Mundorf MKP's are great bargains, have huge amounts of low level detail once broken in, but warmer.
You may really want to take this conversation over to the DIYaudio/multi-way forum, where you can post pics and ask many speaker designers and hackers about it.
Best,
Erik
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Hi Erik,
I have mundorf MKP in the bass and 125uf value, others are auricap xo now. I have another pair coming so I want to try different caps, I want to go with almost the best :)
Sadly PCX does not have the Jupiter at this moment.
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My point was really just to try to keep it all in balance. Have you tried SonicCraft for your Jupiters? It doesn’t make a lot of sense to spend $500 on a cap unless you are sure your tweeter is worth it. :) Mind you, some inexpensive tweeters are ridiculously good for the price. :) I"m about to do a 2-way Be tweeter which will give me the opportunity to experiment yet again with caps. :) Best, Erik |
I will experiment with the clarity MR and Mundorf SIO combo this time and next time I may go with Jupiter route.
I am not sure how good my speaker is but my friend who is a sound engineering and work in the audio industry, actually bought the lesser model JR149 after he listen to the mod version.
Thanks
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Halo again,
When mixing caps in parallel to get the value wanted, are they any rules?
Here are some of my thoughts, based on the store's stock I only be able to get these combination:
12 UF:
CLARITY 4.7uf x 1 :4.7
CLARITY 3µF x 1 :3
CLARITY 2.2µF x 1 :2.2
MUNDOR 2.2µF x1 :2.2 = 12.1
50:
CLARITY- 20µF x 2 :40
CLARITY 5.6µF x 1 :5.6
MUNDORF 3.9µF x 1 :3.9
MUNDORF 0.47µF x 1 :0.47 =49.97
20.2:
CLARITY 15µF / 400VDC x 1
CLARITY 3.3µF / 400VDC x 1
MUNDORF 1.5µF / 1000V x 1
MUNDORF 0.47µF/ 1000V x 1
Are these okay? or do i need to use equal value?
Can someone comment?
Thanks
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Mundorf is sold more ore less by the uF:
uF x y = $$
but Clarity is
(uF * x) + 30 = $$
That is, for the MR line there is a $30 upcharge every time you add a Clarity cap. I don't see exactly which line of Clarity and voltage. Same for Mundorf.
Usually I try to keep a bypass cap to 1-2% or less to avoid things getting really wonky. With this combination it's especially important as Clarity that I've mentioned tend to have higher ESR than Mundorfs.
However, using multiple Clarity caps will greatly reduce the ESR, so the need to bypass them goes down a lot.
Best,
Erik
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I am using the 90%/10% combo that a few people report it works well including Tony Gee, not bypassing.
The combi are clarity MR and Mundorf SIO.
Thanks
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That's a lot of bypass for an MR.
Considering the costs, have you actually heard them ??
Personally, I'd bypass Clarity MR with copper foil caps and be very happy. I find the Mundorf SIO's to add a Disney like sheen or scintilation to the top end. Magico loves them. Me? Meh.
If you want the Mundorf SIO sound, just get Mundorf SIO's. If you are trying to be budget conscious, use something else as your base cap.
That's just my advice though, I"m tired and sick and none of it is coming out friendly like, sorry. :)
I really do think you should listen before you spend a lot of money and make up your own tastes.
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Hi Dan
I agree with Erik I would go easy and much slower. :)
I would start with tweeter caps and getting a feel of the caps and what they will/can do for you.
My one amp I had to make changes to make more stable. I liked the sound of it a lot but was leary of it!. It caught fire once and had other problems.
My repair guy who builds tube amps recommended going from a cathode biased amp converting to fixed bias. (he did not like the power supply) He did that changed 4 coupling caps and one resistor. (one Jensen cap was arcing)
So he took out all the mates and installed 4 Solen caps.
Less change than you are talking about and I did not even recognize the amp!!!
I changed back in the Jupiter and Jensen leaving only Solen and I have a Duelund RS here not yet in. This is in a bedroom amp and all the caps I did not use in main system went in this amp. Jensen Copper Paper, Jupiter and VCap Cuft.
I am trying to judge just power supply change and one resistor and even that is a lot.
The changes you are talking about... Holy Cow! You will not know what did what!
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Hi Dan
How do you like the Oppo 105? I have the 95 and like it a lot. Great for the money!
Exactly how I feel about the Duelund RS.
I agree with Tony they are a no brainer and should be on any trial list. Then you can decide if you want to move up the expensive Duelund list. I have Duelund VSF, RS and CAST and all are great.
RS is my default go to cap... (which I just bought)
I have been cutting spending but still doing some and think if I want another set of CAST caps for the main system. Tweeter caps. 2.2 or 2uf. The VSF then go into bedroom speakers. I planned my own hand me down system. It was pre planned so I did not have to almost give away used caps.
So when/if I replace VSF with CAST the bedroom system gets new VSF so two improvements for money spent!
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Halo Volleyguy1,
My Oppo 105 is amazing. I changed CPU's clock and power supply and I'm super happy with it. Oppo UHD is coming November i heard.
I just bought Clarity MR for the woofer and tweeter caps for center speaker.
Next I want to try CMR with Jupiter for tweeter and woofer cap for front L&R.
I feels Duelund is just too much money and I better save it for LG oled :)
Can someone give review for Clarity CMR ?
Thanks
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Just an update for everybody. I purchased some Arizona capacitor blue cactus capacitors for use in a coupling position in my tube amps. I really like their tone and smoothness, this is just a very musical sounding capacitor. They cost me about $30 each, while not cheap they certainly are a great value in terms of overall performance. |
Also, Clarity TC film caps are wonderful in tube amp power supplies replacing electrolytic types. I have found you can use values of 1/3 the capacitance of the electrolytic caps they replace. More open sounding and extended compared to electros I have used in the past. Also better than the GE motor runs I have used in the past. More air, openness, and improved focus and overall refinement.
This is based on some recent mods on tube preamps and PP tube amps. |
grannyring,
as you might remember I replaced the capacitors in my Coincident Dynamo 34SE with Arizona Green. Huge difference to the good in really every parameter. I have been thrilled for many months. I'm going to try the new Duelund as well. Best, Rob
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I also use the Duelund wire in my tube amp mod with the Blue Cactus caps and resistors Jeff Day likes per his site.
Very nice! However the best mod to take is bypassing the speaker binding posts on my amp. Best sonic improvement I have heard to date with my latest amp project. Just think no more thick metal binding post or even thick metal connectors on the speaker cable. I inserted some Teflon bolts and nuts where the binding posts were and use them as a clamp to clamp together the bare speaker wire with output wires from the trannys that now exit the back of the amp. This was a very noticeable improvement!
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Grannyring,
thanks for the tip. I think I'll experiment on the Tekton Lores, but not mess with the DeVore 0/96 or Harbeth HL5s. Best, Rob
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Grannyring I believe it on your binding posts. :) For me as well maybe the biggest improvement was removing a connection to the woofer with direct wiring. It was crazy how much was lost.
You got me thinking and over the holidays I am going to experiment in removing my cheap aluminum connectors that join woofer, midrange and tweeter with some Duelund Silver wire. I bet a big improvement!
I was reading Jeff's post on the new Duelund cap. Can someone clarify if this is his first Duelund CAST in electronics? I believe it is. I always wondered when he was going to get around to this.
He talks much about vintage caps but I have not found any vintage cap that can compete with Duelund except in the midrange and at great loss of dynamics.
When this thread started I was not a vintage guy at all. I had to admit loving the vintage tone though when I heard it. Duelund improved it in every way.
I do not think he should think of sound as vintage vs. Modern. Steen Duelund had concluded it was natural vs. Plastic. Vintage just used less plastic but not vintage magic.
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Mikirob, I am not talking about removing the binding posts on speakers, though you should, but rather the amp! Every speaker will benefit! Email me and I can sed you pics! |
Volley, direct connection to the woofer is another great example of my general notion. Huge improvement. It does not matter how expensive the connector is, getting rid of it is so much better. Same for fuses, but many cannot stomach that:) I use on/off circuit breakers instead. |
