Hi Volleyguy.
No i have not tried the VSF nor will i do so. The cost just adds up to a point of craziness if you have boutique caps lying around unused.
You are correct in balancing the cast with a less refined cap, call it some raw energy to complement the oh so smooth Duelund cast.
I will likely never buy another cast as i have faced both buldging and leaking caps with no recourse or service level commensurate with the prices and never had these issues with any other cap before.
Duelund suits your music preference like no other cap will, but it can turn quickly to your disfavour which you have experienced using 2 cast. I think using 1 cast in the system is more than enough as almost all boutique caps have very extreme musical presentation focusing on different areas of the music spectrum.
As you have touch on the term quietness, which i infer to smooth, having a blackness between every note thus allowing the sounds to pop into the room as if they are live instruments.
I have recently gone towards this path by lowering noise floor by using oth tweaks which caps in the speaker will not allow you to achieve.
Since my last comments on the duelund cast being bypassed with the god oil and tftf. I have lost the remaining touch of that Duelund midrange warmth and the system not sound neutral but with a realism to vocals and instruments which i cannot associate with the sonic characteristic of each caps strong trait.
You do no need the warmth and texture to enjoy the critical midrange, a neutral but very realistic, with a live presence is what i strive to achieve not. No it does not have the analogue and rich midrange which does have a forward presence. This is not similar to the natural and real sonic traits you achieve when noise floor is lowered, depth and a black background is so satisfying.
The realness is like when i relax not pay attention to the music and certain instruments in the track pops up in the room which literally startled me. This startling effect was like when some squares of wood stuck on my walls fell and hit the floor with a "THUD".
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Salectric,
The Jupiter might be a better choice that the Mundorf which like the Duelunds, never really found a place which left me satisfied. The Jupiter CU just get out of the way and does everything well without being overpowering or "too much" in any area.
I dont want to derail this thread by discussing the other tweaks such as the Bybees which i had adding to great effect that i ended up buying more and dont focus on finding the right cap any longer.
The type of solder could be a make of break decision with the Jupiter cu. As the cap is inherently very neutral throughout the frequencies, together with the quietness it gives , i must add a brighter/more forward sounding solder used gave me a leave it there impression. I found the oyaide solder to match the Jupiter Cu's sound nicely.
I really have 4 solders which i try to matchup with the cap used, namely audionote(more neutral), Mundorf gold (Warm), Oyaide (Brighter and lively) and another 8% silver (which gives a little hardness and solid bass) to match up the caps or any connection being used. |
Grannyring
Sorry for any confusion my experience with Jupiter and Vcap Cuft is only in electronics. (still have them in 2nd system)
My speakers are all CAST and VSF caps and inductors.
No plans to even test other caps there although I did try Sonicap and Mundorf Supreme and Silver in oil in the speakers.
I like Mundorf Supreme more dynamic than Sonicaps nowhere near Duelund level in natural. |
One cap I am re-testing is the VCap Cuft. I have installed in office system and the amp is sounding better than it did that is for sure! Really deep bass. |
Sorry plus Jupiter Copper foils in office amp.
It sounds pretty damn good, for sure wayyyy better than stock and will get another chance at main amp.
I have to say all three caps are excellent! (Duelund, VCap Cuft and Jupiter)
My office system used to sit unused till these caps went in. (just too far below other amp)
I am getting more use than ever. |
Grannyring,
Do you know where I can get the capacitor values for the Coincident Dynamo 34se? anyone? Best, Rob |
Open up the bottom and just look. The values are printed right on the cap.
I assume it's circuit uses coupling caps and those values are most always under 1 uf. |
The Six Moons review has a good shot of the amp. You are replacing those green Solen caps next to the tube sockets. Two of them. I could not read the values, but you will be able to easily. |
Grannyring,
Thank you. Shirokazu Yazaki-San, the Japanese designer on Jeff Day's blog that turned us all on to the WE16ga and Belden 8402 is going to make some recommendations (capacitor and resistor) for me and this amp as hid did for Jeff Day and his McIntosh MC30s. As you know I have never done anything like this before, just a rank amateur. Best, Rob |
Let me know what he says on the caps. Thanks much! |
Rob,
It will be very interesting to see what capacitor he recommends for your amplifier. I use the Jupiter copper foils as input coupling capacitors in my Coincident Frankenstein amplifier. Although it wasn't a night and day change, it was certainly a worthwhile change. |
Grannyring, Charles,
I believe Yazaki-san is going to recommend similar Arizona Green/Blue capacitor that he recommended to Jeff Day. I think, if I remember correctly, there might be Mallory, or some others. Time will tell the tale of the tape. Also, the "brown" resistors as well (forgetting name at moment); of course in the right values and volts. Do you think Israel Blume would part with the schematic, or provide parts list? Or am I way out of line with a request like that? I'm not at all certain about the etiquette of DIY. I'll keep you updated. Best, Rob |
Rob,
I'm not sure if Israel would provide a schematic but he'd give you part values if requested. I look forward to reading about your outcome and listening experiences.
Charles, |
He will not based on my past correspondence with him. He does not want you to mess with the amp period. He went so far as to tell me I was wasting my time and these boutique parts would not make a positive difference. This was a couple of years ago however and he may have come around to the truth by now.
He should not pass out a schematic and I don't blame him. My comments are on his openness to help a DIY or mod improvement.
Might as well try as he may have mellowed on this as time has passed and other owners in good standing with him have done mods with great results. |
Bill,
To be fair, Israel provided me with values upon email request. You're right in that he isn't an advocate of much modification to his products. I do believe he approves Vcap Cu foil as a input capacitor replacement for the Solens.
Charles, |
I understand Charles. Rob, the coupling caps in your amp will make a very nice improvement with Vcap, Jupiter, or Duelund. I am just not 100% sure on the Arizona caps to be honest. |
Charles, Grannyring,
Thank you again! Grannyring, after the success with the Western Electric WE16ga speaker wire and Belden 8402 interconnect that Yazaki-san suggested to us as well as all the accolades Jeff Day heaped upon Yazaki-san for the capacitor and resistor changes to his McIntosh MC30s I believe I will take his suggestion. Day also re-wired his Dueland Cast external crossover for his Tannoy Royal Westminster with the WE16ga with great success. I suppose if I'm going this far (for me), the Jupiter Caps are always available to me in standby mode. I intend to also experiment, first with my Tekton M-Lore speakers and re-wire with the WE16ga as well as upgrade the Caps. If success, will do the Tekton Lore. Best to both of you. Rob
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Rob,
Given Yazaaki's track record of recommendations I understand you following this path. I don't believe that there's a single "best" capacitor anyway, rather there are several very worthy choices with their own strengths. Sometimes the nitpicking can be a bit much.
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
If you read Jeff Day's listening bias as well as Yazaki-san comments on his journey to find "Real Sound", it is extremely enlightened thinking and listening; and I think you would find it an interesting worthwhile read. How Yazaki-san actually found/made his own "Real Sound" choices is fascinating, goes against the normal listening bias of audiophile listening. I believe what he found out in his musical journey closely mirror what I am seeking. Jeff Day and some of his colleagues believe the change to Day's already fabulous system via Yazaki-san capacitor and resistor changes in conjunction with the WE16ga wire and Belden 8402 interconnect have brought Day's system up a notch or two, perhaps the best sound they have ever heard. Now, from these guys, that is saying a lot. Yes, I am going to pursue that " Real Sound" as Yazaki-san defines it. Best, Rob |
Charles,
You are correct that there are a number of good capacitor choices, never one universal best; but I've got to start somewhere, Yazaki-san is a quality starting point, perhaps an ending point. |
Hi...anyone know if the Duelund Alexander PIO copper foil is any good and how do they compare to Mundorf Silver Gold Oil. I am seeking the less bright, smoother, richer of the two. Denser body in vocals is priority. Thanks. |
Pc123v,
On a couple of speaker projects I moved from Mundorf S/G/O to Duelund VSF Copper and eventually CAST Copper for the same reasons you expressed. I was very pleased with the results. I do not have any experience with the Alexander, however. If the Alexander is constructed with pure copper film as are the VSF and CAST copper, I would think it would have the sonic character for which you are looking.
John |
PC123, the Jupiter flat stacked aluminum are exactly what you want. Sound exactly like you describe! |
Thanks for your input Guys! |
Anyone compared Western Electric to Duelund wire?
Interesting results to post soon. (about synergy) |
Jeff Day wired his Dueland Cast with the WE16ga with great success. You can read about his use of the WE here: jeffplace@me.com. |
Correction: jeffsplace@me.com |
Mikirob
I do check into Jeff's place a fair bit. Excellent site!
We both have horn speakers and 3 or 4 years ago on here I was asking Duelund to build autoformers and Jeff had them made for him. Which I was glad to hear! (and envious!)
I have mentioned in the past wanting to hear Western Electric caps to compare to Duelund. (I have not) A best of the past vs. best of today kind of thing.
My favourite amp is a 7591 style amp like the one Jeff uses. That amp was left all stock and my work was done on EL84 amps until firmly past the vintage 7591.
I was surprised Jeff (another big Duelund fan) used Teflon wrapped wire? (not all natural like cotton or Silk)
I am glad to hear he has compared to a cotton wrapped Western Electric which did not surprise me at all he would like better than Teflon wrapped.
I use Duelund Silver 2.0 which I really like but have not compared to copper Western Electric. (which I could use no matter what in office system over plastic wrapped wire I have now)
My whole top amp is Duelund caps except Jupiter in phono stage. (room reasons)
I bet it is a matter of time before Jeff mods his MacIntosh amps. I purposely bought amps at the start of this thread that were not hugely collectible so that when modded I was not destroying resale value.
I can say it is a jaw dropping improvement from vintage caps to Duelund. In my amp I have VSF, CAST and RS and all are good!
I just want one of those Duelund Autoformers like Jeff has just too much form me at this time. Then I will have no vintage parts left in the crossover!
Has anyone compared though directly Duelund Silver 2.0 to Western Electric. (which is MUCH cheaper!) |
Plus I have not heard much comparison of Duelund's new Silver hybrid to CAST.
In fact those new cap values would do my whole amp! |
Volleyguy1,
Jeff did have his Mac's Capacitor and resistor brand changed to Arizona green and blue capacitors, resistors to Ohmite Brown Devils. You should read his latest blogs on all that change. A wonderful Japanese designer, Shirokazu Yazaki-san, recommended to Jeff about the WE16ga as well as the Arizona capacitor and Ohmite resistor as well as some other valuable information while Day was doing a review of Yazaki-san SPEC amp for Positive Feedback. |
Hi Rob,
I recognize that you are very impressed with Yazaki's talent, ears and thus his recommendations. Have you given serious consideration to perhaps purchasing his solid state Spec RAS integrated amplifier?
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
No, not really, I'd prefer to purchase one of Yazaki-San Western Electric DA30 SET amps. Now, I have't heard either of these amps yet. But let's say they sound nearly identical, I'd still go for the tube unit. Why? Complex answer that I'll have to perk on for a bit to articulate in a coherent manner.
I have the highest respect for Yazaki-san talent, ears as you stated above; he is a "kindred spirit" in the pursuit of "real sound". I, like Yazaki-san, listen differently than the typical audiophile. I quoted in an earlier thread Jeff Day's listening bias, "Timbral Listening" which matches exactly my own listening bias. I believe Yazaki-san, perhaps you too listen this way...prefer single ended DHT with highly efficient speakers. Timbre, tone, density, weight, fullness, color, texture, harmonic rightness, dynamics, transparent, natural, organic feel and flow, musical, emotional intent of musicians come through to the listener. Best, Rob
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Rob,
Actually that description of listening preferences fits me very well. Those are exactly the things that get and hold my attention. Probably explains why some touted brands/components leave me cold and uninterested.
Charles, |
Hello Charles,
I thought it useful to reprint Jeff Day's "Listening Bias" since he articulates it so succinctly, matches exactly how I listen, plus, if you read Yazaki-san's own words about how he came to find his own sound, the pursuit of "Real Sound" and his design philosophy I think you will understand that we are all "kindred spirits" in how we listen.
From Jeff Day Blog on Listening Bias:
"Thought it might be handy for those following my writing at Positive Feedback Online to know what my listening biases are to aid you in interpreting and decoding my reviews. Just to alert you, my listening perspective is somewhat of a minority opinion in the Hi-Fi community of North America, but will be more familiar to those listeners in Turkey, Africa, and Japan, who tend to be more familiar with timbral ways of listening. My hierarchy of importance is aligned more closely to how well a Hi-Fi rig plays the musical content of recordings (I know, it’s a heretical concept), rather than how it ‘sounds’ in the more traditional audiophile ‘sonic’ sense.
As a result of my being drawn towards the musical content of recordings, I tend to be a bit more of a timbral listener than is typical for a lot of Westerners, meaning that the reproduction of the textures, colors, and tones & overtones in the music are really important to me. To this end I look for timbral realism at the band level (the band’s signature ‘sound’) and at the individual instrument level (the unique ‘voices’ of instruments). I want them to sound recognizably like themselves in tone and texture, so that their full tone color can develop, which I think helps lend a feeling of beauty and expressiveness to the music. I like the melody (the tune you ‘whistle while you work’), harmony (treble & bass accompaniments to the melody) and rhythm (the steady beat that determines the tempo) to have a life-like flow and connectedness in how the musicians interact—just like in real life. I want dynamics (variations in loudness) to evoke that which I hear in life for an emotional connection to the melody and rhythm. For loudness I like my music playback to be similar to live loudness levels, which for the kind of music I listen to the most, jazz, usually means 80 dB or louder. Finally, I want tempo portrayed so that both the mood and speed of the music are conveyed through it, just like it is with music in real life.
I consider the sonic performance of a Hi-Fi rig on the non-musical artifacts of the recording process to be of value, but of less importance to me than the performance on the musical content of recordings (as above). So things like transparency (being able to ‘see’ into the recording), soundstage (the three dimensions of the recorded space in width, height and depth), soundspace (the acoustic ‘space’ of the soundstage), and imaging (the feeling of solidity and localization of instruments & musicians on the soundstage) are important to me, but they are not my primary focus – the musical content is.
So I like my cake (the musical content of recordings) with a little frosting (the sonic artifacts of the recording process) for a balanced taste treat. Too much frosting and not enough cake puts me off. So thatÂ’s me, and you might be different, but at least now you know."
Well, that sums it up for me very nicely, that is how I listen. I obviously really enjoy Day's Blog, simpatico person in attitude toward family, food, wine, music; a "kindred spirit". I can trust what he writes about when it comes to equipment and music. Same for Yazaki-san who not only has great ears, but he can design/build/modify equipment to match the sound Day enumerates. Like you, both big Jazz aficionados. |
Hi Rob,
Reading that I'd say I'm cut from the same cloth. Musical attributes are more important to me than the sonic ones. I suspect being into acoustic jazz like they happened to be, we'd listen/hear that way by default. I believe Art Dudley falls into this category also. We seem to like(and dislike) the same type of audio components for the most part. Politically we're polar opposites LOL!
Charles, |
Agree on Dudley musical tastes and choices. I've always enjoyed his writing since subscribing to Listener over twenty years ago. If I wasn't moving in the direction I am I might go Shindo like Dudley. I likely agree with you on the political stuff as well...but too much of that in my dailey life as it is. Best, Rob |
The WE16g stranded wire seems to be drying up. I purchased more for future amp projects but had to buy the end of roll stuff. Shame when it is all gone. Some of the unprinted red left I see. I purchased more of that also.
This stuff is the best wire I have listened to regardless of price. |
Grannyring,
Yes, it is almost gone, looks like only end of rolls. I've personally been scouting the world for spools of the WE16ga with no luck although I know smaller amounts exist in Japan and Taiwan. I agree with you, this is the best wire I have listened to as well regardless of price. I also have enough wire to wire several amps and several speaker internals plus several reasonable lengths for speaker cables doubled up. Whew!!! Glad you took a chance. I'm happy I acted promptly for once in my life. |
Grannyring and Rob, I managed to snag 29 ft based on your recommendations. I'm going to hold it undisturbed until I'm sure how to put it to best use. My guess is that reverse engineering this stuff won't be that hard. But I am glad I got a usable length of the original.
Makes one wonder how many under appreciated treasures from days gone by are resting on someone's dusty shelf. |
Are these off ebay? Are they silk sleeve solid core version? |
Justubes2,
Most of the WE16ga has been bought off eBay from seller tajacobs. No, it is not the solid core, but WE16ga stranded tinned copper, about 25 strands. Unfortunately for now, the legitimate best seller of the WE is almost out of it, apparently only end of spool and scrap ends. I don't know if he'll be able to replenish his stock. Best of luck, but I think Japan and Taiwan, maybe Hong Kong, still has some sellers with this wire, but be careful, some of these sellers appear to have crappy lots, if authentic. Rob |
Brownsfan,
Glad that you purchased some WE16ga. I believe you will like it. Buy a couple meters of the Belden 8402as well. Very simpatico with the WE. I'm also very happy to see you pop up here and I truly hope your move, selling your house is going well.
I replaced the Mullard 5AR4 in the Coincident Dynamo with a NOS Mullard CV378 skinny coke bottle shaped rectifier. I like it very much. Better timbre, better bass, bigger stage, but most importantly, better tone across the board, lots of texture and tonal color, etc. |
Rob,
The Mullard CV378 has the same positive effect in the Frankenstein as well. It made an excellent amplifier sound even better. This rectifier tube along with the Elrog 300b yields superlative tone. The Mullard is definitely worth its cost.
Charles, |
The Mullard CV378 drops more voltage than the 5AR4. If your amp has a B+ of say 425v with the 5ar4 your B+ with the CV378 will drop to around 405v. In my amp the CV 378 makes the sound more relaxed more rich and luxurious. 5ar4 sounds more dynamic and it makes the amp sound more taught. I hear the sound breathing more naturally with the CV378. I switch them out quite often as it's fun to hear the amp react with the different rectifiers. |
Charles/Jetrexpro,
I have a pair of High Wycomb Fat Bottle CV378 that I am saving for the big Franks...but In the meantime my Coincident Dynamo is really sounding superb, especially with the WE16ga and Belden 8402, RCA Red Base 5691, Shuguang Black Treasure 6CA7, and the Mullard skinny bottle CV378. Now, I can only imagine what Yazaki-san suggestions will bring to this already wonderful little amp. Rob |
Rob, I am going to leave that 29 ft section of the WE 16 alone until I am sure what I want to do with it. It won't be enough to use with my dynamo based system, which will be in my living room in the new house. I could use it in my main system upstairs, but that will require cutting it into small lengths for double runs. I want to make sure of what I want to do with it before getting out the wire cutters.
Where did you get the Beldon? I do want to get at least one pair of these ICs on their way. |
I've never been a big fan of the Mullards, despite all the hype. I prefer the GE 5U4GBs that Israel supplies with the Franks, and they are much cheaper than the Mullards. The CV378 skinnys are great tubes, in my estimation. By all accounts, the fat bottles Rob found are a step up from the skinnys.
I'm still using the PSVane EL34 phillips replicas in my dynamo, along with one of the GE 5u4GB rectifiers and the red base 5691s. I am eager to hear what Rob finds when he starts replacing the caps. |
Hi Brownsfan,
Here is the link to Belden 8402 interconnect: http://btpa.com/IC8402-XX.html
Remember, you must order a minimum of ten (10) feet of cable, for example, one six foot pair terminated; have them terminated with Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA. |
The Mullard CV378 outperforms the GE retifier in my listening comparison. The fat bottle CV378 is said to be the ultimate version but are very rare these days. Rob you should feel fortunate to own this tube.
Charles, |
Hello Charles,
I feel extremely fortunate to have scored the older NOS Mullard High Wycombe CV378 "Fat Bottle". I spoke with Israel about this tube as well as "skinny bottle"; he was very enthusiastic about this tube plus liked the slow start. I read Dubstep Girl review of 5U4GB and their equivalent tubes. I must say she is accurate in her assessment on the brands I have tried. Dubstep was reviewing with a Woo headphone amp, so not apples to apples, but it worked out alright. Yazaki-san likes the NOS GEC and Marconi types like U52, for example, as well as some others. Yazaki-san sent Jeff Day a really nice NOS 5U4G rectifier under the Haltron banner, but since they never made their own tubes I wonder what it is? I'll have to ask. |
