I also found the Vcaps to be very, very fast and detailed. I can see how folks like them. In my set up they did not have enough body and weight. But my system already leaned towards fast and detailed.
The CAST are world class caps as I have been one of their chief advocates on this site. Still think they are top three. No issue with Jupiter dynamics in my rig which excelled in dynamics before and after the Jupiter caps. It does come down to personal tastes and system synergy with these top three caps. All of them sound fantastic to be sure. I have had the opportunity to actually compare the Duelund and Jupiter in several pieces from speakers to tube amps I feel like I have a solid understanding of each. I have spent a good deal of time and money listening to both.....less with Vcaps that I tried once in a DAC.
The most dynamic cap I have heard in a power supply are the big can computer grade electrolytics! To Volleys point they are huge! 3 inches wide by almost 6 inches tall. Very dynamic. I am spending more time of late comparing caps and chokes in the power supply. Thus far my favorite caps are the GE 97f oilers. Thanks Salectric for the tip! The only issue for me is they don't come in values above 60 -100uf. I like to build with more capacitance and will try the Clarity TC film caps some day. They have values of several hundred microfarads and even higher. They are costly however. |
Soon I'll be installing GE 97f oilers in the C1 position of my amp's power supply at the suggestion of Salectric. I am almost finished with the long break in of the Duelund .1uf 630v Copper cast in the coupling position of my amp. They are more natural sounding than the V-Cap Teflon they replaced. The air and space around the instruments sounds more natural as well. In my system they are a bit darker sounding than the V-Caps. I'll have more to say about the Cast after the holidays. |
Interesting Jet! It does appear that my reactions to V-Caps vs. Duelunds are a minority view, but I can live with that. It won't be the first time! My system may need some extra zing in the HFs or maybe it's my 62-year old ears. In any case, I agree with you and Grannyring and the others that the copper CAST caps are very good sounding and certainly belong in the top tier of caps.
Let us know what you think of the GE 97F caps. I have one as the first cap off the rectifier in both my phono preamp and SE 46 amps. In both cases, I use Black Gates for the remaining caps and the GE seems to complement the Black Gates very well. |
I am going to heat my outboard crossover box/enclosure to keep all the components at a nice operating temperature of 100-105 degrees. Much better sound with this modification as they will operate at the temperature they sound the best.
Just kidding:) Well kind of? Happy New Year to all! |
Good idea Grannyring! Everything will be truly "warmed" up. |
Salectric, We may not be so far apart on the Duelund's sound as my description has made you think. They are more natural sounding but I don't like the extra darkness they are creating in my system at this point. Keeping in mind that my AN-e's are on the slightly dark side anyways. I'll leave them in for another month or two and really get to know them once they are fully broken in. if the darkness continues, I will try the Copper V-caps. Jet |
Happy New Year to all!
Getting pumped to get the soldering iron going!
This thread was meant to not declare an official cap winner but to give someone an idea of what to expect when installing caps and to know their priorities upfront.
My priorities (with horn speakers) are natural tone, noise reduction, dynamics.
If ultra micro detail was my priority V Cap would be the cap of choice.
I am more in the Jupiter/Duelund camp. I have to be careful not sounding as keen on Jupiter. If space is tight they are my top choice... So I do like them. If money is brought into the equation many will go the Jupiter route.
If money no object? CAST or what value for the $ is RS? I will soon find out... |
Jet, I believe we are talking about the same thing when you say the CAST caps sound "dark" and I say they are "a bit lacking in air and high-frequency extension." I could hear this when I put the first one in but it became more of a problem when I added a second and then a third CAST cap. Of course, the treble colorations may not be a problem in the context of a particular system.
Since my post a few days ago about V-Caps, I did some reading on the internet about V-Caps and a number of folks described the TFTF caps as clinical, cool or bright, especially when a system has 4 or more. I find this quite odd because it doesn't match my experience at all. Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that I bought all of my TFTF caps during the first 6 months or so of their introduction. Maybe something changed later on in the design or construction. Or maybe other people posted their feelings prior to the caps being fully broken in. The TFTF caps took a long, long time to break in. Somewhere around the 450 hour mark they went from lean, bright and glassy and began a transition over the next few hundred hours to warm and rich in the lower midrange and slightly soft in the treble. The final sound is pretty much the opposite of what I read from a number of internet posters. In contrast, the CuTF V-Caps never sounded bad during the breakin process; they started out sounding good and just got better and better.
I am not trying to start an argument with people who tried V-Caps and didn't like them. I am simply describing my experience. |
Ok folks before you read what I am about to post and think I have gone absolutely nuts, keep an open mind. Oh, and don't tell my wife as she will think I have lost my mind.
I finally placed my outboard crossover in a nice chassis. I was doing some research on how to best damp the box. We all know that the nicely damped CAST and Jupiter caps sound great and reduce noise greatly! Well I found several threads on folks using Reptisand ( reptile sand make of Quartz). Well, I decided to try it. I filled each crossover box with 30 pounds of Reptisand covering everything bottom to top. Be sure to only use the Reptisand brand made of Quartz as it has the best dialetric properties and the sand is so fine that it will not be abrasive to the components.
I did place the component board on a multilayer cork plateform making sure no park of the plateform touched the chassis on the sides. I did this as over time the board may want to sink down into the sand before hitting the bottom. However my crossover board is slotted and on small cork stilts so there is a 1 inch layer of sand between the most of the cork plateform and the crossover board.
Talk about reducing noise and music emerging from a dead quiet background! Any and all traces of glare, noise you thought you never had, is gone. More natural and organic sound. I am very please and this strange mod is a keeper.
Yes, it can be reversed by simply using a shop vac and removing the sand. But you won't do it. Ha!
Ok, I am a little nuts, but this was fun and I was very curious. |
After more listening the sound is only better and better with this crossover damping mod. I find I have to turn up to the music a click or two more than usual for the same perceived loudness. I know it is the noise that is now gone and was once adding to the perceived volume. When I say noise I mean whatever ringing, RFI, and other noises once getting into and going through the crossover.
The music has more natural tone, improved body, weight and bass impact. The most impressive change is the greater sense of ease and nuance. As I turn the volume up the music is just so easy to fall into. |
I have Duelund RS 3.9uF coming in tomorrow to replace Mundorf Supremes in the HF position in the crossovers for vintage 16 ohm Altec horns and can provide some input vs. the Mundorfs once they burn-in. Unfortunately I have no experience with Duelund CAST which are outside of my budget, especially with the New Year's sale price on the RS's from PartsConnexion. ;) I would have tried the Jupiter Cu is they were offered in a size capacitance above 1uF. |
BTW Duelund RS are simply VSF potted in the CAST method - I would expect them to sound very similar to VSF but with less noise and more detail. |
Junker, I think you will be very pleased with the results. Let us know your initial reaction as well as your impressions after burn in. |
Here are few pics from the install today! ;-)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58102603/IMG_5021.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58102603/IMG_5017.JPG |
Initial impressions right out of the box were less detail and a compressed soundstage. Also, less exuberant and a bit quieter. A short time later I wasn't certain they were much, if any, quieter, but rather encouraged me to play louder due to a reduced sense of shrillness. Detail? shrill? Hard to say but the Supreme is a damn good $30 cap and anyone on a budget can't go too wrong for this price point. A few hours into the new caps and they are sounding great... Not finding much to comment on at this point other than they are easy to play louder, and thus far don't have any obvious faults. Let's see what happens over the next week or two. After going through a banshee-like burn-in process with the Supremes I will not be surprised at all if things change significantly. After all Gee did lead his review with the following sentence, "Sound: After many hours of burn-in time the main thing that I kept writing about in my notes was how natural the Duelund RS-Cu sounds." =) |
A weekago I wrote this about my .1uf Duelund copper cast 630v caps:
Salectric, We may not be so far apart on the Duelund's sound as my description has made you think. They are more natural sounding but I don't like the extra darkness they are creating in my system at this point.
Another week of break in has past and I need to amend this comment. The Duelunds are still a bit darker sounding than my Vcap TFTF but now they are letting thru a very detailed rich tonal pallet that is more natural sounding and is connecting me emotionally with the music. This emotional connection is very important to me. They are warmer than the Vcaps but now all the detail is coming thru in a more natural way. Richer and warmer but with more detail. More detail and with a bigger richer color tonal pallet than the Vcaps. This actually might be special. I'll know more in about a weeks more of listening time - Jet |
Thanks for the info Jet! Even though your CAST are bit different than the VSF / RS how long would you characterize the break-in period...maybe not to the very last iota of finality, but say 80% the way to their final voicing? 2 weeks?
My previous Mundorfs took a good 2-4 weeks and it was a real roller coater and a process that I hated because I was never sure if I had made a mistake or not...in the end it was a damn good $30 cap. So now I know to hold off on making any rash judgments.
I'm pretty sure the RS's are starting to improve after a few days, but yesterday I kinda had fun a put on a 0.01uF Sprague Vitamin Q that I just received for fun. After another week or so I'll play around with and without to see if it's worth doing, or if the RS's should be left sacrosanct. ;) |
Junker to be honest I have lost track of how many hours are on the Duelunds. They have been in for over three weeks and may have a little more than 200 hours. They may only be one half of the 400 hours folks say they need to be broken in. So to answer your question wait about 200 hours before starting to evaluate their sound. |
Junker
I was glad to see on Tony Gee cap review he retreated the Supremes up to 10 from 9.
He had them rated not much better than Sonicaps and to me they were much better. (good value and better than the Silver in Oil I thought)
Jet
Duelund is all about the rich tonal pallet...
There is some good value caps out there Mundorf Supreme, Jupiter. No need for new builds to use cheap crappy parts... |
Jet,
Not surprised by your findings, I left a comment on your system page. |
I should also qualify what I characterized as a the darker sound of the Deulund CAST as compared to the Vcap Teflon. As the Duelunds continue to break in, that darkness clears and has become a rich and natural presentation. Emphasis on natural. As Charles has indicated, the Duelund CAST present music in an extremely natural and organic way. They dont sound neutral to me. Somehow they are able to sound completely natural and tonally colorful and rich all at the same time. Very engaging in my system. |
Jet,
I believe the term "neutral" as used in audio conversation is meant to denote a lack of coloration.In reality every component and audio part has a signature or sonic character. Tubes,transistors, metals,class A, AB or D, there's no such thing as pure neutral. Everyone chooses a certain sound character they find the most agreeable and least compromised for their needs.To say something is natural/organic doesn't deny the presence of some innate signature(impossible to eliminate). Natural to me means more life like/real and less artificial in presentation. Jet based on your use of this term I'd guess your definition of natural is similar to mine. More life like and able to communicate much more of the emotion and soul of music when listening. Anyway Jet I definately get your point. |
Hi all.
I have 3 way speakers nad need 12uF tweeter , 94 uF Mids
I ordered 8.2 uF and 2.2 uF CAST for tweeter and wil mix it with Mundorf SGO to get 12uF.
Fir the Mids I have 40uF VSF and 30uF Mundorf SO , 10uF Mundorf SG and 10uF Mundorf SGO , 2.2 Audyn True Copper 2 pcs.
My question is is it better to preserve the caps to full CAST on the tweeter? Or can I better thaI e the CAST 2.2 or 8.2 move from tweeter to the Mids ?
Or better to buy VSF for the tweeter like 4uF and mix it with 8.2 CAST? And move the 2.2 CAST to the Mids.
My speakers are DIY : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/234483-my-new-concept.html |
Your speakers are stunning and you are a very talented wood worker/craftsmen. They are the finest DIY speaker cabs I have ever set my eyes on. Congratulations!
I assume your values are correct, but must say I question 94uf of capacitance on the mids. Again, I will assume your right and make a suggestion.
I would not mix all the different brand of caps on each driver. All the different sonic flavors of each cap combined with the different materials in each cap could result in a bad or wrong sounding speaker. Some combinations work, while others will spoil the broth and sound horrendous.
Stick with one brand and model of cap on each driver.....do not mix unless the other brand is used as a small value bypass cap (under .47 uf or so).
Also, if breaking up the 94 uf cap is a must, then try to do so with caps of equal value or as close as you can get. For example nine 10uf caps and one 4uf. Six 15 uf caps etc........
Experienced builders suggest this is always best for sound quality.
I cannot stress enough to not mix 3 or 4 different brands of caps on your individual drivers. You cannot know the end result and will be playing sound quality Russian roulette.
Your speaker cabinate to simply to special to be ruined by this move. Your drivers are also very high quality. Again, very well done and I am impressed with your talent! |
Recommend me an upgrade to the LSA statement 1 monitors pls? |
NYaudio98
Your speaker also comes in a signature version with a better Tweeter. If it fits in the very same cutout, then use that tweeter. Check with the builder.
From there you can upgrade the resistors and caps with the very same values. Your builder puts Dynamicaps in as an upgrade in the Signature model. They are good, but you can do better.
Please tell us what sound quality improvements you are after.
The biggest single improvement I have heard with all the mods and upgrades I have done to crossovers is this....
Take the crossover out of that vibrating and energy bombarding enclosure. Then dampen the heck out of your outboard crossover. This yields the single biggest improvement, but it takes more DIY skill. Not possible for all. Some don't want to do this mod as it also changes the original design substantially possibly hurting resale. This is a labor of love for one really into this sort of thing. |
I posted this once, but you AGON DIY guys must try this if you have not done it as yet. The single most important sound quality upgrade I have heard is removing the crossover parts from the bombastic vibrating speaking box and making it outboard. This is so darn important and really makes your expensive passive component upgrades shine.
Don't stop here. Once the crossover is outboard, dampen it. I floated the crossover board in the middle of 30 pounds of Reptisand. I was absolutely shocked at the improvement. Stunning folks. Talk about removing noise and greatly improving focus and imaging. Oh my. Yeah, I know many won't do this for obvious reasons, but the sonic results are fantastic.
I started by just filling the box under the crossover board and listened. A definite improvement. I then buried the whole thing, totally buried, and the result was even better.
Some have done this with sand and that is fine for damping. However the Reptisand made with Quartz is a much better dialetric. Make sure it is Quartz as Reptisand comes in different forms and you want Quartz.
I vacuumed out all the sand and listened again. I could not wait to put the Reptisand back in as it is so much better sounding. What it does to remove noise is shocking. I had no idea I even had this "noise".
Bass is tighter and more articulate. The background or space between the Instruments and voice is black as black gets. The music is more natural sounding with more heft and body. Any vestige of glare has been removed.
The music is more effortless and the tone is so intoxicating.
The sand is very, very fine and smooth so it will not harm your components. I was able to vacuum it out easily. I sealed my box well and have no plans to vacuum it out again :)
I am not the first to try this Reptisand as I learned of it from others. |
I think that would be a big improvement. I remember tapping a capacitor when a signal was going through it and it easily rang. In light of what you state Grannyring I am somewhat surprised that out board xovers are not more common. I don't think it would cost much more if anything. |
I have the statements which are top of the line booksgelf in the lsa line... |
The speaker above and better then the signature is the statement which I have. Grannyring, thank you very much for your posts and info. |
I see, then I would upgrade the caps to Jupiter copper foil and wax and the resistors to Path Audio. This would be a very significant improvement. Go whole hog and place the crossover in a separate box outside the speaker!
You could also upgrade the internal hook up wire. |
Marqmike, I agree 100% that more builders should do this. The reality is it does cost more, takes up more room, some won't like the added boxes and aesthetics etc...
Some builders already put $10 caps and $3 resistors in $10,000-$20,000 speakers. Building and properly damping an outboard chassis is most likely way to costly.
If you are willing and capable DIY can bring you substantial sound quality improvements for a relatively modest investment. |
Grannyring,
Could you share some good sources of quartz reptisand?
I could put an inch or two of it in my external crossover boxes and have the tone wood with the crossover parts/circuit rest on it.
Thanks,
VPN |
Here is a link to buy it.....
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017UB3PI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00076HTU6&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=06A2AVMSP8QW30CNYRKN
Completely covering the board was the big pay off! |
have the lsa statement speakers...this is what the owner/enginner said about speakers..
The resisters are 6.2 and 12 ohms. The caps are 4uf and 10uf. The inductors are 1.2mh and .357mh.
We certainly have great parts available to dramatically improve sonics of these speakersÂ…the only issue is your budget, and whether you are going to be doing the work, or someone else.
Space limitations are also an issue….some customers want parts to fit into the existing cross-over board…others, can “McGuyer” a larger board to still be internally mounted….. And others still, retrofit the cross-over outside the cabinet.You can go MILLS resistors, with CLARITY ESA caps ($100 to $150 for the pair)…..or, DUELUND resistors and CLARITY MR CAPS…and be in the $400 + range.
Without seeing a schematic, IÂ’d stay away for changing the INDUCTORSÂ….
However, if you do, MUNDORF Copper Foil inductors can be unwound to you exact value needs, for a change of $5 per inductorÂ…go with 14 awg. ****** feedback?
|
Nice of the builder to share all that with you! Very nice. I would start by replacing the resistors only. Buy some Path Audio as they are better sounding than the mighty Duelund. Let those settle in an enjoy the improvement. They made a big difference.
Do you have Dynamicaps? Solen? If so, I suggest looking at the Jupiter Flat stacked VT or HT line. The are expensive, but great sounding.
I would wait on that and start with the resistors. The jupiter caps are large and may not fit on the board so you may need to "MacGyver" them in! Love that phrase.
Clarity are good caps also, but please tell me the kind of sound you like. The Jupiter flat stacked are rich, organic and full bodied with good transparency also. The Clarity caps will perhaps be more detailed. |
Grannyring, your feedback is epic and much appreciated!! I'd want the best imaging possible and very detailed music. |
Installed the Duelund RS plus finished installing Jupiter's in the phono stage and moved Jupiter to office system and the VCap Cuft I have as well. (all tonight)
Spent a few hours listening tonight and first impression is promising. (of the RS)
I see Tony Gee has some Jupiter Copper Foil caps for speakers. It will be interesting his take.
My take is Jupiter is dead quiet around the voices instruments not as real sounding as Duelund. (over damped sound)
I left the Jupiter vs. Jensen Copper Foil in for a long time. Which one would I get? The Jupiter's (especially if the cost was lower) but neither as good as any Duelund to me. I just can not get enough of the full rich organic sound.
The Duelund just sound so right. With the Jupiter I missed the CAST. Tonight was the longest I have enjoyed music since the CAST leaked and were taken out. |
Nyaudio98,
It's refreshing that a builder/designer is so encouraging and supportive of upgrading their product. Some builders downplay or don't believe their products can be improved very much. Better parts(not necessarily the most expensive) do "matter" and can improve sound quality, no question. In my system carefully improving part quality(which was already good) is well worth the additional cost.It wasn't a case of bad to good parts, but rather good to excellent parts.Good luck.
Charles, |
Volleyguy,
I can understand your conclusion regarding the Duelund CAST, it's a very special product my friend. |
I wanted to clarify my posting. I had spoken to John Tucker who was very honest and straightforward in regards to his lsa monitors. He did give me the values of the crossover. The subsequent posting from me was from someone who mods speakers and gave his recommendations for upgrading. |
Based on postings in this thread, the value in upgrading is definately there and worthwhile. Now, it's a matter of spending money in a speaker for better listening or selling as is and finding another speaker. |
Getting further along on the RS break-in...and they seemed to really open. At some point with my Mazda chrome plate gain tubes etc I was feeling too much top end emphasis.
And then in my tube amp I replaced some cheap 0.1uF MKP coupling caps with 0.22uF Supremes that I had and around this same time I regained just about all of the spatiality that I felt lacking upon initial install of the RS. Now, a couple days later I feel I have a great deal of tone, neutrality, detail, and spatiality. Not sure if the RS are still coming in and to what extent the coupling upgrade cap had but right now I'm very happy with the RS's and I don't feel they are doing anything wrong. I'll still run this is for a bit longer and give some final impressions.
Also, I wanted to mention that Chris Johnson put together a massive bulk buy of 0.01uF Duelund Cast Silver caps for use as by-pass caps and told us that he will have very good pricing on them because of the quantity order, and that the use of these will go a long way toward bringing the best of both worlds with CAST silver. |
The RS are getting some hours on them. My guess is they sound very close to VSF that I have already.
Like Junker said a great deal of tone, neutrality, detail and spatiality.
Even after 4 years of doing this I am still stunned at what difference even 1 cap makes!
You would think all higher end caps would converge on a similar sound. Not at all the case.
Jupiter vs. Duelund RS.
First of all I have tone controls. (so imbalances easily corrected)
With the Jupiter's I treble is set to neutral with the Duelund it is -2.
The Jupiter's create an absolute black background that is beyond belief. (literally beyond belief) A singer will have blackness around their voice that does not sound natural to me.
The Duelund's are not so tidy but oh sooooo organic sounding.
Grannyring has mentioned things to reduce noise like the sand etc. if one is looking to reduce noise Jupiter is "the" cap...
The Duelund's are just so natural sounding. The RS sat here for close to a month me not putting them in. I was somewhat worried Duelund was going to go all super low noise in the Jupiter direction being wax. To be honest the first time I was not excited about Duelund.
You have heard it from me on here before I wanted a cap between the CAST and VSF but closer to CAST. The RS might be that cap? Not sure yet but like the VSF sounds very good right out of the box CAST took some break in.
My phono stage is now all Jupiter after that all Duelund. (have not listened yet) I might do up one of the other amps with RS and maybe some of those Silver CAST? |
Interesting comments on the Duelund requiring you to set the treble tone control to -2. That corresponds to my findings exactly. I found them slightly tipped in the upper mids/low highs and I don't have tone controls. Over time this very slight emphasis was not as musical to my ears, in my system, as the Jupiter caps.
I do suffer tinnitus and I require my highs and upper mids to be smooth and not even the slightest bit emphasized. The dead quiet and ruler flat response of the Jupiter caps really have me smiling.
The noise they remove also helps my tinnitus.
I also find the Jupiter caps soar higher in the highs with more air. Important not to confuse this with a slight emphasis in the highs as they are not the same.
I found this difference in electronics and cannot speak as expertly on speaker use.
I try to post these details so readers get a sense of the flavor differences as one one cap is not better than the other in all conditions and for all needs.
I can say this. Jupiter copper foil caps burried in Reptisand filled crossover boxes are astoundingly quiet and absent of noise. Shockingly so. |
Thanks Grannyring !
There are so many answers like this one about mixing different capacitors. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Bypassing.html
I think first I will test now what I have already. If I'm not happy I will buy another 40uF duelund for the middle speakers. |
Grannyring
I agree I believe we both hear the caps exactly the same. The original point of this thread was to give a person an idea of what to expect. Caps of course provide HUGE change in sound but the resale is obviously poor. So nice to avoid poor choices.
I moved the Jupiter caps to my bedroom system which knowing how they sound is the kind of sound I am looking for there. (using still in phono stage)
Without a doubt Jupiter's are quieter. I can not imagine a quieter cap. When there is a singer the voice is suspended with an uncanny pitch blackness around it. Just crazy and this was with one cap!
Jupiter's are also quieter than CAST or any cap that I have heard?
The downside is the Jupiter's are quieter than the actual event. (to me)
The RS shine in organic bloom, nice weight, natural sound, real feeling venue energy. (at the expense of what can be perceived as noise)
Not sure if you are aware of this Grannyring but Steen used vintage caps before making his own. (VSF) Vintage caps are not low resonance. So his voicing would tend toward that direction.
My amps are vintage and Duelund caps are wayyyy better versions in all ways but still in the same area. |
Why is the resale vale poor on modded speakers?/ If the sound is better, why would that be a negative? |
Where can you go to listen to a modded speaker to see if it will work for you? Much more difficult. You a taking a much bigger chance on a modded one. What that risk results in can be poor resale value. |
Well, I have sold modded speakers for a higher price then I paid on two occasions. It depends on several factors. Your overall feedback, quality of the work done, and finding the right buyer who is educated on this sort of thing. Usually this person is a DIY kind of buyer to be honest, but not always. |
