Hi Volley,
I used Duelund silver bypass caps in my current reference speaker crossovers, attempting to bypass Clarity MR caps. I can honestly say it did nothing detectable. Maybe due to the size, about 0.047uF around a 4.7uF cap.
On the other hand, another cap I have, around 8 uF, bypassed with an 0.1uF Audyn True Copper cap was an outstanding imropovement. I tried it on the other cap too but found it changed the timber too much.
If I had the money I would love to try the Jupiter copper foil caps, cheapest from SonicCraft, but ouch.
Best,
Erik
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@volleyguy1 Sorry I'm not quite ready to let go of them yet, though I should. I am unpacking and about to create a new listening room so I want to wait until I can re-evaluate the speakers they went into first. |
@volleyguy1 Any time there's oxidation there is the potential ( depends on material ) for it acting resistively or like a tiny diode. This can do a lot of things, including limiting the dynamic range at the low end. Musical decay will get cut off too soon. This is my own pet peeve. :)
Not all material that oxidizes has this issue though, I think copper for instance does not.
Best,
Erik |
@dgarettson Dave, Great to know!! Would you mind posting this over at the DIYAudio milti-way forum? We’d love to have this info there too. :) I did notice the Clarity MR’s have a little higher ESR than I was expecting. I suspect a lot of the value in bypassing was there. If that problem is reduced, it’s going to be an amazing cap! :) Now, if my tweeter cap could be made smaller than a soda can, that would really be incredible. :) Any idea when our usual sources like Parts Connexion and Madisound may be stocking? How far along are you in the process? Are engineering samples available in usual values, or no? Best, Erik |
@dgarretson
Fair enough. For comparison, what is the size of the new 4.7uF and 10uF caps at each voltage?
Your explanations would definitely explain my own findings. :) Guess I should stock up on small CM's for bypasses. :)
Best,
Erik |
@dgarretson Not bad at all, so long as they dont come with ittty bitty leads that makes them impossible to mount on a pcb. ;) I look forward to seeing them in stock. do you have any idea when?
Best,
Erik
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Hacking at a Pass huh? :)
Hey, what do the letters stand for anyway? CMR?
Best,
Erik
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@volleyguy Well now that I know they are in such short supply, I'm putting them up on a Vietnamese auction site at 4x original prices. :)
Best,
Erik
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@volleyguy1 I was being funny, but there are some out of control audiophiles in Vietnam who are crazy for Duelund. :)
Best,
Erik
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@santodx5
Woah, take it easy! :) That's a lot of money to spend on upgrades. They won't give you different speakers you know.
If you are happy using the JR150's as a learning experience I'd consider series caps with the tweet and mid (if any) the first place to start. What do you have now?
I am a Clarity fanboy, but that's a lot of money you are proposing without having heard them.
Instead, I'd suggest start small, and see what you like. Try Mundorf MKP, Supreme and Clarity MRs in the tweeter. Which do you like best? There's only one way to find out. :)
Replace series resistors with Mills.
Maybe you'd like the Mundorf Supreme's. They add some Disney sparkle to the top end. The Mundorf MKP's are great bargains, have huge amounts of low level detail once broken in, but warmer.
You may really want to take this conversation over to the DIYaudio/multi-way forum, where you can post pics and ask many speaker designers and hackers about it.
Best,
Erik
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My point was really just to try to keep it all in balance. Have you tried SonicCraft for your Jupiters? It doesn’t make a lot of sense to spend $500 on a cap unless you are sure your tweeter is worth it. :) Mind you, some inexpensive tweeters are ridiculously good for the price. :) I"m about to do a 2-way Be tweeter which will give me the opportunity to experiment yet again with caps. :) Best, Erik |
Mundorf is sold more ore less by the uF:
uF x y = $$
but Clarity is
(uF * x) + 30 = $$
That is, for the MR line there is a $30 upcharge every time you add a Clarity cap. I don't see exactly which line of Clarity and voltage. Same for Mundorf.
Usually I try to keep a bypass cap to 1-2% or less to avoid things getting really wonky. With this combination it's especially important as Clarity that I've mentioned tend to have higher ESR than Mundorfs.
However, using multiple Clarity caps will greatly reduce the ESR, so the need to bypass them goes down a lot.
Best,
Erik
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That's a lot of bypass for an MR.
Considering the costs, have you actually heard them ??
Personally, I'd bypass Clarity MR with copper foil caps and be very happy. I find the Mundorf SIO's to add a Disney like sheen or scintilation to the top end. Magico loves them. Me? Meh.
If you want the Mundorf SIO sound, just get Mundorf SIO's. If you are trying to be budget conscious, use something else as your base cap.
That's just my advice though, I"m tired and sick and none of it is coming out friendly like, sorry. :)
I really do think you should listen before you spend a lot of money and make up your own tastes.
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It's probably not paper, but "kapton" which is much more heat and age resistant. It may affect the capacitive coupling from input to output somewhat.
Of course, no 2 transformer designs are the same at all, ever. I wouldn't focus too much on construction type, you'll go crazy theorizing and never listen to music again. :)
Best,
E
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Duelund resistors are "weird." They claim to have a high thermal coefficient (resistor value change rapidly with heat) that somehow magically makes them change value correctly to compensate for drivers warming up. Problem is there are lots of places to use resistors in a circuit, and the importance of any given resistor to the overal filter impedance varies tremendously, so who knows which way this will affect the speaker sound as it warms up.
Having resistors change value with heat is the LAST thing on earth I want, unless I have exactly matched the crossover behavior to the drivers themselves.
Unlike Duelund, Mills 5 and 12W wire wound resistors have EXCELLENT thermal stability. Warm them up within their heat / power tolerances and they maintain their values precisely.
I think Jensen is making a line of affordable (relatively) foil in wax / paper coils.
E
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You know, about getting things right, sound may be a lot like mom's cooking.
You get used to things being a certain way and that's it for the rest of your life. :)
Nothing wrong with that, but it's good to recognize where you got your palate from. :)
Best,
E
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Volley, I'm curious if you have tried the orange Jupiter caps? Specifically made to reproduce vintage sounds.
Best,
E
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Little theory.
A capacitor is 2 conductive plates with an insulator. You can make one out of aluminum foil and wax paper, but it will be very very low Farads. I’ve done it. Tiny capacitance. Like, nano-Farads.
Commercial caps use insulators with a thickness measured in micrometers.
To increase the voltage rating of a cap you must make the insulator thicker, which then makes the need for more conductive material to compensate for the increased distance. This need for a thicker insulator is the driving factor on the rest of the design. This is true for ALL capacitors. Look at a 10uF electrolytic at different voltages. The 5V is tiny compared to the 60V variety.
Some uber-expensive caps like Mundorf Supreme’s are made as 2 caps in series in a single package. This cuts the effective uF by four, while doubling the voltage rating. You could do this yourself. With a pair of 20uF/100V caps:
---| |----| |---
You would have the equivalent of a 10uF/200V cap, even though you used 40uF worth of capacitors.
This is why these boutique caps are so much larger physically and in some ways justifies the price. The material cost just went up by 4!
Best,
E
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What the market will bear is not entirely disassociated from manufacturing costs.
Having said this, I have a pair of old shoes I'd happily sell for $5M dollars. If I can get it, great. :)
Best,
E
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@grannyring
Weren't you saying you prefer the Al to the Cu versions?
How do they compare size wise?
Best,
E
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I could just oooh, look at the spec sheet. :) I was just moderately curious.
I'm thinking of putting together a two way kit with optional Cu foil caps, that's why I was curious. Makes the crossover box much larger. :)
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So the 100V Cu Jupiter is about 2.5" diameter x 5" long. So basically the thickness of the Clarity MR, but twice as long!! Wow.
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I love Parts Connexion, but sometimes they hold up a big order for 1 part that I don't even care that much about. :) Hahaha.
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It depends on the specifics. Some items have huge mark-ups devoid of reason.
Speakers on the other hand, except from those who make their own drivers, have a rather well structured cot to sales ratio. Always exceptions, to everything, but it's clear to me that there's a specific range manufacturers try to hit.
Bet,
E
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Hey C_avila1, Depends on the rest of the circuit, but your changes are on the high side, about 10% of the total values for C and R, I would strongly encourage you to stick to the original values, or you’ll hear differences that have nothing to do with the quality of the part. :) You could use something like XSim to simulate an ideal filter /driver combination. This may help you judge what range of changes you are talking about. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/software-tools/259865-xsim-free-crossover-designer.htmlBest, E |
@volleyguy1
See my post, above re: capacitor construction.
Best,
E
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This resistor value BS is another reason to stick to Mills.
They are ALWAYS on spec, low thermal co-efficient, great sounding, small for their wattage rating.
Everything else to me is just fussy nonsense. :)
Best,
E
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@volleyguy
Maybe, but using BIG foil sheets I got to about 4 nF. That's nano-Farads. :) I think that was double Faraday's original jar though. :)
Ask me more specifically, I'm not sure your question about value.
But it's just basic sales and marketing. Sell for what you can get, not for what it cost you. That difference can certainly seem to be without rational thinking sometimes, and there have been MANY times when I've been told I should hear something which I did not. Saving me tens of thousands of dollars. :)
Best,
E
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@volleyguy1
My statement was very meta about pricing in general. Having just basically destroyed $200 worth of Clarity caps for $200 more / newer Clarity caps I am in no place to lecture anyone about caps.
I was just making the general statement that yes, the difference between price and actual cost to manufacture can be quite astonishing.
Best,
E
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I should have added, when making suggestions to new modders, I think the MKP is a great starter upgrade cap. If they can hear a difference with this cap then they are pleased and may look into more tweaks, or learn speaker /crossover design. If they can't, they are usually out under $30 a pair.
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Well, the value proposition for me is a little different than for most purchasers as I make my own speakers. As such, based on driver quality, etc. I'm spending MUCH less than most buyers for the same.
So in terms of total speaker cost, yeah, the CMR seem expensive, but totally worth it, and balanced with the cost of the drivers and cabinetry. To me, the MR (bypassed) and CMR are among the best caps I've ever heard and probably the most expensive I can afford, so in that sense, they work for me. :)
I would love to be able to compare with some Jupiter or Duelund Cu caps, but that's about $700 / speaker here vs. $150 for Clarity CMR. If the CMR really is just as good as Jupiter, then I could make the argument that it is a huge bargain. :)
Best,
E
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@volleyguy
The best bang for the buck, especially when modding inexpensive speakers has to be the Mundorf MKP capacitor. Dead quiet, superb microsonics, but yeah, they are dark. Tonally the opposite of the Mundorf Supreme's. They are also pretty compact so usually can replace cheap film caps in a speaker without major board hacks.
At around $7 a cap, they are about 1/10th the cost of the Clarity CMRs we are discussing. Huge bargain.
The least value was the silver plated multi-stranded speaker connector cable (internal). Took a long time to break-in and when it did was just as good as the copper it replaced. :)
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Oops, sorry. the capacitor cost was just for the high-pass filter. :) There are more caps in the low-pass section, but they are using Clarity ESA's and no plan on changing them, with a copper-foil inductor.
So, $150 in caps for a $500 tweeter seems reasonable. However, there are far less expensive tweeters that may be very good and worth just as much in caps.
Best,
E
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This may be a good time to talk about speakers and value.
The _average_ speaker maker using off-the-shelf parts charges 10x the driver costs. So, $200/speaker = $400 x 10 = $4,000 finished cost. This is so rigid a lot of makers don’t want to use premium crossover compnents. To their credit, Magico and B&W do use pretty pricey parts in the crossover.
This is of course retail pricing. Assume 20-30% off for big bulk purchases, even if "custom."
If you make your own drivers, from scratch however you end up with an even better ratio, maybe 20-30x. That’s where the big money is. Focal and Monitor Audio are among the brands I’m thinking of. Make your cabinet out of pressed cardboard and it’s even cheaper. :)
BTW, I’m a huge Monitor Audio fan, I don’t mean to disparage them, just wanted to explain the biz end.
So, in all of this the best value really is the speaker kit. @pbnaudio makes really nice kits out of premium parts you get for a song compared to say, their Sony equivalents.
Best,
E
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Aesthetics aside....( vomits )...and based on just images...
Tweeter array:
Those look like SB Acoustics SB29RDCN tweeters. If so, they got them for a steal. Lots of SB Acoustic fans, they sure measure nicely!
I think the tweeter array is interesting, and used before in various incarnations, such as McIntosh like the XR100. This is again why I like large surface area tweeters like the AMT’s I use. They can control dispersion and give you amazing clarity and detail at the listening location. That wearing headphones kind of feeling that seems to remove your listening room from the equation.
Interesting it is a 4-way design. Probably using the center tweeter as wide-band, while surrounding array is cut off below.
I would want to know is whether there is any lobing from the array. Can you move around and hear a pleasant presentation or does it feel as if you are moving across a net of fabric in front of you?
What about smoothness? The current "high end" darling speakers are often dominated by rough, but exciting or bright treble. I’m thinking B&W, Focal, Golden Ear. Compare their treble to the best of Magico and you’ll understand my problem. If it really is an SB tweeter array this won’t be a problem.
Everything else:
Given the price, is the dynamic range of the speaker as a whole would be an important area to check. Static and thermal compression are big differences between high end drivers and cheap pretenders. How well do they play music at full scale in the bottom end AND how well do they play it for an entire song.
Overall, I think it’s a very smart use of technology and volume purchasing. :) I would absolutely give them a listen if this format and aesthetics were pleasing to you.
Best,
E
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It would be interesting to compare the Vishay to the sound of the caddock thick films. |
@grannyring
Normally you’d be right. "High resolution" usually means bright, but not in this case. That’s the whole point about the array. :)
By making a large format tweeter they get high-resolution without requiring an uptilt in the frequency response.
Of course, this is all theory, but if you ask me "Can large format tweeters/arrays produce much high resolution and detail at the listening location without brightness compared to a simple dome or ring radiator?" My answer would be: "YES!"
Same general theory as ESL’s. Only ESL’s can have very complicated and rough frequency responses.
Best,
E
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@grannyring
Resistors: I will never use Path Audio. Too far out of spec for me to fuss with. :) It's precision or nothing for me.
DI: Well, a 4 way has a lot of potential advantages in dynamic range.
Why would you find them aggressive in the upper mids/highs? I'm not personally familiar with those tweeters, but those I respect find them very good.
Best,
E
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By the way, their patent is rubbish IMHO.
Best,
E
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Some one recently mentioned they bought matched Path Audio resistors from Parts Connexion that came in rather high.
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See the post from @c_avila1 regarding his purchase. He wrote: I also replaced the Duelund Cast resistors to Path Audio resistors. The
original resistors' value is 8 ohm. I purchased the Path Audio resistors
rated at 8.2 ohm but actually measures at 8.7 ohm (matched pair for
Partsconnexion). I hope that doesn't skew the crossover design too
much.
That's about 6% over spec. At $30/resistor, that's way way too much. Best, E |
I may be getting worked up enough to make some circuit boards as part of a speaker kit. I'll have to leave room for a Caddock or Mills in the one series resistor in the circuit so I can give it a good listen. :)
Best,
E
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@c_avila1
Good feedback. :)
E
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Chris has excellent measurement tools too. I would be surprised if you asked for a matched pair and it was that far off. Do you have a reference resistor?? Relatively cheap to buy a 0.5% resistor to compare. |
