Can a DAC sort out a flat\cold amp?

What speakers do you have? I doubt that the Yamaha amp is the problem!

@orenm145 Nice meters shame about the sound! This amp is Mid-Fi at best. Decide if you want an integrated amp or separate pre and power amps. Then decide if you want a streamer/server with built in DAC or not.

Computer audio is full of noise and it's better to gradually remove it from your system.

If I was in your position I'd get a DAC first, a Chinese one will give you the best value and then upgrade everything as necessary.

I know this amp is my problem but  i can’t just buy another 3k amp. currently my biggest problem is the bass , i’ll worry about noise later. I really don’t know what so you mean by chinese dac. Can you give an example?

buying another amp or seperates are out of the question. When i plug in my dj controller & tweak the sound mid,hi,low it sound good enough for me. Is there a way to get an eq on thouse chinese dacs?

as for the speakers they are not to blame since they sound good with my old amp which was a pioneer home theater 100w. Long story short i just need a cheap fix until i’ll manage to find a replacement. Cables did not help. Even buying a warmer speaker might not do the trick since this amp is not so easy to pair with speakers. 

Buy a Shitt Loki EQ. It used to be about $130, but I haven’t looked lately. 

https://shenzhenaudio.com/collections/decoder-dac?sort_by=price-descending

Like @jasonbourne52 , I doubt it is the amp. I have heard this amp and it didn't sound bad to me. Aamof Bill Watkins used that amp to demo the Gen 4 speakers which go down to 41 hz. There was no doubt that they hit the 41hz.. I suspect something else or an incompatibility issue 

there's something wrong, but truly should not be that amp unless it is defective.

to isolate the amp: skip the pc, make a simple direct path: a cd player directly to the yamaha to your speakers. a few familiar cds. 

great? lousy? then the amp is defective, who sold it to you?

Since your PC is the source keep what you have and do the EQ on the PC 

I doubt it is the amp. I would recommend a separate streamer… Bluesound sell budget streamers that are very well regarded and sounds like it would be in your budget.

I have never had luck treating symptoms (equalizer). I recommend going for the source of the problem. You can clean up multiple problems at once. PCs are very noisy and transmit that through the signal chain. A purpose built streamer avoids all of this. I tried all kinds of PC, Mac, laptop solutions and didn’t really get anywhere until I bought a streamer.

Get rid of the Scarlett and get a proper USB DAC like a RME ADI2.

Someone asked you to name your speakers and you didn’t tell. Is this a secret?

Without more info like speakers and pics of your room it is all guesswork and a waste of everyone’s time.

If the boombox sounds better, there are much greater problems here than the Yamaha.  The Yamaha is showing you the problems elsewhere.

Not to insult the OP @orenm145, but are you 100% sure that both speakers are the same phase? It sounds like your woofers are out of phase. What you describe is not an amp unless it is broken.

I would swap the wires from + / - on one set of speakers to be absolutely certain.

Since you insist here's an Image of the setup. I was hoping to avoid that 😱 because as you can see this is a pretty unaesthetic room with all those cables.

the speakers are Dali concept 6 which are due for an upgrade but was postponed because of the lack of bass issue which I want to resolve first before continue to upgrade. I was thinking to get monitor audio silver 500 7g at first but in light of this amp performance I think I'll have to settle for bookshelf.

now I'm thinking that if this amp did not upgrade the sound of my old dalis may be it's not a good idea to build the new system around it. there are a lot of compromises here. right now the upgrade path will likely be a DAC & then i had my eyes on the buchardt s400 mk2. the amp will have to go at some point & i still regret buying it over the m5si\m6si but that's water under the bridge.

MHDT Tube R2R Dac sweet sound

@chayro

Loki Mini is $165+ delivered plus tax, <$175 for silver.

It's like a bandaid when you really need a tourniquet.

You will bleed out as long as that PC is in there.

My take is that the Topping D10s for $93.49 delivered will blow out that Scarlett. I have both.

OP, please do not feel self conscious about the state of your room. Most of us constantly have rooms in a state of flux.

The photo is incredibly revealing… sonically. First, move the PC away from the integrated. PCs are really noisy and you can pick up all sorts of it being that close.

Second, the speaker positions look really compromised. With that much bare wall… and the speakers that close to the wall you are likely reinforcing the treble and probably compromising the bass. The window may not be helpful as well.

Before buying anything I would start working with what you have. The thing that is immediately obvious is the setup is a big problem. Do you have options? Do you have a location where you could build a six foot triangle between your speakers an your sitting location with space behind and on sides? Could you have one side of the room for your workstation and the other your system?

Even if not permanent, I would try to build your system in the triangle… without walls so close behind and sides… then dampen the back and side walls where reflections. Then toe in on the speakers. See what it is capable of.

I have a setup in my office like yours… it sounds fantastic. It uses tiny Totem Mite speakers (10” high and 7” wide) and a small subwoofer (all in beautiful wood. 

I read an online review that described the 1200’s bass performance a somewhat lean combined with forward mid’s/high’s, but didn’t search for other reviews.

Have you tried the tone controls (either backing off on treble or adding bass (didn’t see a tone control defeat in the pics)?

Don’t know if makes a difference, but per the pic the power supply of your CPU is really close to the bottom of the 1200 (assuming that it and the fan are located @ the top/back of the CPU).

Unless your current DAC is very thin sounding/bass shy I can’t imagine another DAC remedying your situation much - if @ all.

Can you try an inexpensive, but decent subwoofer (maybe borrow one)?

DeKay

You might want to consider trading YH 1200 for a used Hegel H90 with some money left back to your pocket. This integrated amp is equipped with more than adequate DAC/Stream which allows you to play music directly from Hegel. It is a very wonderful thing because the desktop music playing is like a third rail. It has only 60 wpc but high current with damping factor more than 2000 which should drive your speakers with authority and clean bass.  

IF you desire more power, a used Hegel H160 will just cause you $300-500 more than H90.  See the review by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2iLYRjCFOw&amp;t=1156s.

+1 On double checking speaker phase. I know it’s basic but this is a new hook up?

For a solid budget DAC I'd recommend a Maverick Audio TubeMagic D2 for about $300 and then eventually upgrade it with three Sparkos Labs Dual Discrete OpAmps SS3602 and possibly roll in a tube for some extra fun.

For what it's worth, seeing your room made my head hurt because it looks to be very tight quarters and also very live which could explain what you're hearing.

I've seen a number of reviewers state that the Yamaha's top end calms down considerably with enough break in time. You Tuber Sean @ Zero Fidelity did a video on this, if I remember correctly.

OP, I do second your consideration regarding a DAC.

I can imagine that the audio interface (which is primarily for home recording and/or dj-ing as far as I know) is, for some reason, the weak piece. IMO, it's not the amp nor the pc.

In order to test, you might want to invest a little money in a decent DAC (no need to spend more than 200 Dollars, really), using USB 2.0 and a media center software (if you don't have 1 alreaday) like jriver or foobar (no additional $$ investment for fb). That is what I would do if I were in your place.

Even without a change in the current lineup of all your gear, you should hear a difference in SQ. Although I do support the respective suggestions of other members of this community, which will further improve SQ.

Please comment on the results after you have changed whatever you intend to change. I'm sure all those who have contributed to this post will appreciate it.

Best, eagledriver

If the sound is cold, I would first go over the power cord that I use for the Amp. Just try different power cables, don’t buy first ask to try. After that if you like it, buy. Most probably, this will solve your issues.

First of all I would not pump any more money into this set-up.-which is being used as a work station and a defacto hi-fi set up

Your aim is to improve the sound of what you have at minimal cost.

I would replace speaker cable and inter connects though.

I would also lose the table , display and keyboard , electric fire , flip flops and any other clutter. Use headless control via mobile phone.

Get the speakers away from the walls.

The PC it looks ancient and may have a limited speed cpu ? - Replace HD with  SSD if not already done.

A clean Install of windows server 2019 - Free trial available Reduce number of services running in back ground.

Remove as much clutter on SSD and install HQPlayer -free for 30 days. Employ highest HQP settings that the cpu will permit.

Pull CPU out and replace with quality  thermal paste 

Install ROON +HQPlayer

Ethernet connect from router to pc -disable wi-fi

@bobby1945 

All great ideas Bobby.  OP should implement all.

This post just goes to show what a mess you can get into down the digital rabbit hole.  The faults being heard are almost certainly due to digital issues and like most here I would exonerate the amp.  But adding a digital equaliser won't solve the problem.  It's sending a spider to catch a fly.  Just adds to the mess.

Like Bobby says clean up the whole system and simplify.  Where possible put individual components in other systems to verify they operate correctly.

That amp could easily be sold here or on ebay. It is or was a popular Amp. Maybe it would do better paired with a warmer speaker. You may just have a synergy issue. You could also try a tubed dac such as the Border Patrol r2r dac. It may warm it up a bit. Cabling can also be used to tailor the sound. If Possible, leave that Amp on continously for a week. Maybe it will burn in more.

Thanks for the pic.  It tells everything.  It's your room and the positioning of the equipment therein where the problem lies.  A 1,000,000 dollar amp won't fix that.

The room looks frigid. How to warm up the sound in there with equipment only is a mystery to me. Major reflection effect with that setup. My ears are ringing just seeing it, and not from my tinnitus. The boom box sounding better in the middle of such room makes sense. Work with the room and setup first is my two cents.

The room will be a mess, but I don't think the speakers in that location nor even the reflective surface are going to result in too little bass. I would expect boomy bass from the near corner placement.

Something is broken. One of the speaker polarities wrong, bad amp, etc. Replacing the speaker cables, using Roon (except for equalizer which you can do much cheaper), interconnects, DAC, and a bunch of other things is not going to make any difference. Find out what is broken and fix it.

Buy a microphone and learn how to measure your setup, then you will not need to guess.

+1 Elliotbnewcombjr

A gross lack of bass is NOT characteristic of that amp or any properly functioning modern HiFi SS amp. Other than speakers wired with incorrect polarity (a definite possibility), an impedance mismatch (unlikely) or your seat is smack dab in a null created by room acoustics, I’m hard pressed to come up with another rationale for what you describe. A Schiit Loki may be your best bet if the other proposed solutions don’t provide an answer. 

@orenm145 I concur with many others that have already stated that the amp is not the problem

In the interest of problem isolation, if you have not already done so, may I suggest you simply your build for a moment and validate the source of the problem

Take the PC and network out of the equation

What happens when you play the tuner, are you happy with the bass?

If so move up the food chain and connect an external CD player to the Yamaha and test

Those two tests should confirm if the amp is part of the problem

Best of luck

"A gross lack of bass is NOT characteristic of that amp or any properly functioning modern HiFi SS amp..."

With due respect, I disagree with this statement here.  The disparity of treble, midrange and bass sound signatures among all types of amp. could be highly significant.  This applies to Yamaha as1200 without exception.  Listening to several reviewers such as Tarun (a british audiophile) and Andrew (Robinson), they both point out as1200's bass is nimble, textured but not as weighty/full as compared to several noteworthy competitors.  It has been well-known the Yamaha amplifiers were relatively leaner sounding in the bass region and that was why I start up my 2-channel hi-fi system with the Harmon Kardon Integrated amplifier 25 years ago.  Don't get me wrong, the higher end Yamaha amplifier like this does shine in its high-end frequency clarity which produces very transparent / detailed treble. But as a compromise, this clarity also extends into its midrange which also produces leaner sounding compared to its peers.

Given that sound signatures of the amplifier, it is difficult for a DAC to mitigate its leaner performance in midrange or bass.  While noticeable refinement can be expected, a complete make-over that changes the sound signatures of a amplifier is less likely.  That is why I was suggesting a cost-effective solution with Hegel Integrated amp.  Don't take my words for it.  I am just translating my previous experience to the OP so he could make more informative decision.

Thanks for all the help & insights. unfortunately I don't have many options. I have a bigger room but it has a huge glass window which won't be ideal for the vibrations in higher volumes. investing in sound dampening is not a good idea since I will probably move from this apartment in about 6 months. I'm aiming to find a good balanced equipment that I can go forward with & replicate the setting in different locations with similar room sizes. changing the table is also not viable option. the speakers are front ported so I figured it's not that bad & they performed well with my old amplifier although it was under a DSP mode which was like loudness button combined with virtual surround. It wasn't true to the source & some audiophiles will call it blasphemy but the only one that need to love the sound is me so...

Tone controls do help but are individual for each recordings which can take away from the laid back & easy listening.  Also it changes something else regarding the general feel of the sound which i can't really point out maybe narrowing of the soundstage & losing separation & detail retention. The pc power supply is sitting at the bottom so i'm less worried about that. I'm starting to think may be i just need to add a sub to the mix & not rely on the towers alone. the DAC , sepakers, room , cables , cord... everything could be better but i think this is a more elementary problem. low level listening is basically non existent unless i turn the bass all the way up.

As i mentioned before i'm living in a difficult country in terms of deals , trades & second hand parts If i was to sell this i would get 1000$ & they will try to lower the price some more even though i only have this for less than a year. I lost alot of money buying equipment & trying to repair it after it failed few months down the line. Basically second hand equipment is a huge gamble here & also the repairs & restoration are really low level work borderline a scam (some even got to the courtroom)  so I was better off buying something new then dealing with second hand parts. I triple checked the phases it's pretty basic red to red white to white. the cables & interconnects are blue jeans cables & it's good enough for me. I was considering the schiit bifrost 2 but i'll do more research about the DACS suggested here. about the reviews the top end did calm down with the break in but the low end did not extend with it just stayed the same. 

The reason i thought a DAC will help is A.my DAC is not a dedicated HIFI DAC B. i listen to very lossy audio (youtube\soundcloud) & could get alot of benefit from upscaling & upsampling C. when I listen to a good source like a real 320kbps the bass problem diminishes significantly D. this amp does not come with a DAC so it's pretty much mandatory.

bobby1945

i'm not going to build a room dedicated to audio. i'm not at that point in my audiophile journey. getting the speakers from the wall will require changing the table. my pc is ok it's just an old case. here's a Picture so you can calm yourself.

crustycoot

I do get bass but at volumes too high for my liking. the seat situating in a null created by room acoustics may be an angle i need to investigate further. 

after reading all the comments I think this situation will require a sub which is something i tried to avoid cost wise.

The amp itself can’t be the problem unless it’s defective. Yamaha integrateds always have strong bass, no reason an amp wouldn’t. Here is a review that mentions the bass being too strong: (skip to "The Listening" 2nd paragraph)
https://www.stereonet.com/uk/reviews/yamaha-a-s1200-integrated-amplifier-review

Nor should a soundcard be the problem; any soundcard from 25 years ago can play music fine. Except in the case that its software or some other software on your PC has auto calibrated for the amplifier in some gross way.

Check your wiring to speakers and amp, your software, and your amplifier’s manual.

edit -- if you really need to confirm your room isn’t the problem is there another space you could take the amp and speakers briefly? Also, as somebody already said, try with just a CD player, game console, etc bypassing the PC. -- sorry for redundancies, your last post came in while I was writing this.

+1 @crustycoot.   Some audiophile don't want to accept that flat frequency response and low distortion can only have one result as long as the output resistance is not high.

The absolute cheapest way I know to solve lacking bass and too much highs is to attenuate the highs.   Solder the capacitor onto an rca and plug it into the Tape Out jack.  Usually, the tape out is connected before the volume control.  Right in the signal path.  Value? Depends on the frequency the top end starts getting hot. .47mfd ? to start?  This is where Radio Shack excelled. 

Too bad the amp sucks to you this way.  And now having to resort to putting the band aid on your elbow when your knee is bleeding.

OP, thanks for your reply. Honestly, If you are going to move in six months… I would not make any additional purchases. I would wait.

If you were going to remain there I would recommend downsizing your speakers. But moving is going to completely change everything.

I would like to reinforce how incredibly important your listening space is. I lived in small houses for many years… then bought a house with a large incredibly asymmetrical room I am now using for my audio room. Holy cow… biggest upgrade ever!

So, you want to improve your system in the future. Look for a place you can set up a 6 - 9’ triangle for speakers and chair… one where there is nothing in between the speakers and the speakers are away from the front, back and side walls. Think about thick wall hangings for dampening (see my systems under user ID).

if you anticipate rooms similar to what you have now. Then consider getting some small stand mounted speakers like Totem (with a small subwoofer)… natural sounding and punchy… less room dependent than than too large floor standers in a tiny room. Right sizing is key.

Those of you who keep harping on this amp are totally wrong. I have heard this amp with a set of monitor speakers in a rather large showroom with NO sub. The speakers are Watkins Gen 4 which are winners of the Golden ear &editors Choice Awards from The Absolute Sound. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THE AMP.

Do you guys REALLY think that Watkins would demonstrate their award winning monitor speakers which go down to 41 hz with an inferior amp that lacks bass?

@orenm145 

i listen to very lossy audio (youtube\soundcloud) & could get alot of benefit from upscaling & upsampling C. when I listen to a good source like a real 320kbps the bass problem diminishes significantly D. this amp does not come with a DAC so it's pretty much mandatory.

You came here looking for advice and have been told repeatedly that the amp isn't the problem. The problem is the source material. MP3 is a terrible source. It throws away 80-90% of the signal and effect the highs and lows very much. You must listen to LOSSLESS IE Flac. With all due respect it is akin to buying a Ferreri & complaining about the power when you are using watered down regular octane gasoline. You should either change your source material or go back to the cheap HIfi that doesn't expose the flaws of Mp3

I just ordered the svs sb 1000 pro. I didn’t think dac would make enough difference to justify experimenting while a sub will for sure make a big difference.I think this will serve me for both low level listening & will keep contributing after speaker upgrade , apartment moving etc… it’s not the cheapest solution but it was going to happen eventually.

Thanks for all the guys that gave thier 2 cents. I also got 1hr of professional tuner that will try & teach me/sort out/recommend what to do with all this situation.

i will update in a month or so. Because the sub is on backorder.

I know this amp is not that terrible like i made it look like but it seems to me i could have got the same results  (setup wise) or better with a cheaper one like the 6000A 

Also at this price range i think i could have done much better amp selection.

OP, 

Thanks for the update. congratulations, this should be fun for you.

I look forward to hearing your impressions when you get your subwoofer.

Not the cheapest fix but Sw1x dac will give your system some balls 

Of course, get a DAC with a tube buffered output! My Kora, Herrmes makes everything sound like analog!

Good luck on your audio journey! Don't  worry, you will get it right in the near future. To me, the pic of your system shows problems of speaker positioning and it also looks like your room has too many hard surfaces. If you can address these issues, you will get much improved sound.

You need to confirm your speakers aren’t wired out of phase before you buy anything new.

@artemus_5 - I think you're on point.  I'm not familiar with the OPs speakers or amplifier, but it appears that the Yamaha retails for about $3,000 and the Dali's retailed for about $1,100.  It's likely that the Yamaha is revealing and resolving to a point to expose poor source material.  Upgrading speakers could only make things worse until the source is sorted.  From the picture, the room is also a significant contributor.  I imagine the sound to be bright and hollow.  I have not heard any complaints from the OP about the sound other than the lack of bass, so the SVS sub could very well be the solution that he's looking for.  It's unlikely that the result will be pleasing to the ears of most on this forum, but the only thing that matters is the OPs listening experience.

Not a DAC that is functioning normally.