I will assume you are not a native English speaker, and just say this, there is no way, you or any of your sidekicks, will ever INTIMIDATE me. That's down right laughable.
"I feel someone needed to tell you this about the system you are trying to hear cable differences with,you will not!"
Where did you, and several of the other posters get the idea I am 'trying' to hear wire? If I was, don't you thinkI would have wire that cost more than $39? I don't know your education level, and I certainly don't want to offend you sir, But my arguments are not based on the price of stereo equipment, or the rants of your cohorts. or the 'reviews' done by the scammers. If you have problems with my position, take it up with Sir Issac Newton or the guys at places like CalTech and MIT. They will be able to explain it to you better. WOW! There are no zealots like the recently converted. In this country you are what we call a Kool-Aid drinker. Happy listening to you also. SIR!
And btw, if you spent $70,000(US) on mostly cables, you are a very respectful idiot!
By now you already can find that with the cables we only equalizing our systems and nothing more. Therefore there is no any absolute cable and thus no any absolute truth. We can hear differences in the sound and than what? What will happen once you will change any part of system? Yes, new cable will be necessary, and so on and on. I’m right now in mode to sale out my very expensive PCs (5500 USD/pc) which were been replaced with bargain ones (200 USD/pc). I did same thing already earlier with ICs. That easy is how you can feel stupid.
@ rok2id,Hi, I do not want to make you angry like some of the other people on this forum,so please excuse me,It seems no one wants to be honest with you cause they are being respectful of you as I will be,cables do make a huge difference,to me they should out perform the componets and speakers thus costing more than the system if you will,here is the problem thou,you have to have a very resolving,very high-end system of at least $10,000.00 and up to here the effects of your better,trusted,brands of cables out there,,my system is near $70,000.00, mostly the high cost of cables,they are that important to me,do I agree with the cost of esoteric cables?,of course not!,or alot of other things such as speakers,the system you have is a hi-fi system that you will in no way hear what good quality cables can do,It is not a high-end system and that is the problem, not a good brand of cables such as, Taralabs,nordost,stealth audio,transparent,lessloss,purist audio,kimber cable,synjestic research,there is a few more to name,but I believe these will do,I know it takes money and time to obtain a real high-end system,LoL,exspensive hobby!,I do not wish disrespect to you sir,and I am not bashing what you have ither,I feel someone needed to tell you this about the system you are trying to hear cable differences with,you will not!,you have to obtain a quality amp like Krell,passlabs,audioresearch,boulder,just to name a few,the amp is a good start!,as a matter of fact,if you had eanyone of these amps and use what you have,well,to put it in better words and use one of the brands of cables I mentioned above,you will be shocked to say the least of what cables really do!,as I said,please excuse me and I'm sorry if I intimidated you in eany way sir,,Happy listening to all!
By now you already can find that with the cables we only equalizing our systems and nothing more. Therefore there is no any absolute cable and thus no any absolute truth. We can hear differences in the sound and than what? What will happen once you will change any part of system? Yes, new cable will be necessary, and so on and on. I’m right now in mode to sale out my very expensive PCs (5500 USD/pc) which were replaced with bargain ones (200 USD/pc). I did same thing already earlier with ICs. That easy is how you can feel stupid.
Hi Bo1972, you know I have to agree with you once more!,your post from 2-18-13 here,,this forum is kida, wow!are you kidding!, you know what I mean Bo?I soppose there is alot of people out there that have not been exposed to all the possiblitys of cables like the both of us have Bo!happy listening!
Double Blind Testing is nothing more than a parlor trick devised by people with an agenda. We've all known "friends" who for some reason never warmed to stereo like we did. Detraction started early for me as I went deeper into this hobby and those that didn't share my joy drifted away from stereo and me, some completely.
Denial of the benefits of upgrading was mitigated by anger and resentment, yet some chose to stick around assuming the role of a self appointed ref of sorts. That only served to weaken the friendship as no one wants detractors hanging around which only strengthened their resentment. It never failed to amaze me just how people can separate themselves from others over such a small a matter as taste in a hobby.
The level of cynicism directed at those who believe they can hear differences in cables that others can't, or won't, is a fascinating phenomenon to me. It must be rooted in some kind of personal insecurity on the part of those who can' or won't; and in the case of the most common targets, audio reviewers, my long-held belief in "reviewer envy". Here, again, we have one more example of the cynics (Rok) jumping on an opportunity to put down a believer or reviewer. The question that I find most interesting is: Why does it matter so much to the non-believers, that others believe?
The details of the Randi challenge, as described above, are totally incorrect. I think that Acman is correct in that the motivation for withdrawal of the challenge was probably "fear of failure", but for reasons that are not so obvious. The facts are (were) these:
It was NOT Fremer (reviewer) who backed out of the challenge. The first obstacle was put up by (surprise!) Randi, who refused to let Fremer use his own reference cables (the logical choice) for comparison. Randi expressed a concern that Fremer's cables might be "tweaked" to provide Fremer with "cues" for their identity. Then, after some other nonsense put up by Randi, it was Pear (?) Cable's chief who then refused to supply the cables for comparison to some cheap Monster cable in a double blind test. You see, Randi's challenge was not about wether someone could distinguish between two sets of cables. It was supposed to be about wether someone could tell cheap Monster cable from a specific multi-thousand $ cable of Randi's choosing; I think it was Pear Cable.
Rok2id..'think about hearing these so-called difference while music is being played'......i will assure you i can hear any and every change in my system when i add or change cables..why..because it is a highly resolving system and it is the only one i listen to day after day.if you are speaking from experience as to your not being able to hear the diffenece in your system then it just might be that YOUR system is not resolving enough to hear differences in cables.'scam artists'....that's pretty harsh. there are hundreds, if not thousands, of cable companies each one trying to create a better cable.'scam artists'...i think not!..is Porsche a 'scam artist when all they make are $100k + automobiles when you could easily buy a Kia.?...i will assure you you will know the difference when you drive both.
Thanks for giving the chance to clarify my thoughts on wire.
The failure I alluded to in my previous post, refered to the reviewer at stereophile accepting the challenge to do the wire thingy, and then backing out. I do not know the details. I just postulated, that if he could not ID wire, how could he ever be a reviewer for a publication that believes in wire and in which he has many times tested, reviewed and sang the praises of many wire products. He would have lost his position / status in the audiophile community. You are right. The price of failure would have been high. And he didn't need perfection, just any rsult above guessing. The test is, can humans hear wire, not just one guru. Perfection was not required.
This challenge thing has been around for many years. It's nothing new. BUT, you cannot PROVE a negative. I cannot prove that I cannot hear wire. You can prove that you do hear wire. Therefore, the burden of proof in the wire debate is on those that say they CAN hear wire. And no one has proved it as of yet. No one is obligated to do so. But the fact reminds that no one has.
Back in the day, the definition of a perfect amp was, a straight piece of wire with gain. That means, the wire is just there to carry the signal. it adds nothing and takes away nothing. And if you could get gain, that is perfection! Of course no such amp exists. But that would be the 'perfect' amp. All you would have is a signal traveling thru wire and magically having an increase in amplitude. No noise / distortion. Nothing!
NOW, we don't need some guy with a challenge and a million bucks. We can all do this at home. Just have a person that lives with you, change or not change your wire everyday. It must be so you cannot SEE any difference. Both of you keep notes. Compare notes after a week, a month, a year or even a decade. Then you will KNOW if you can hear wire. You can even listen to the same CD/LP which should give you an advantage. To make it even fairer, use the best audiophile wire avaliable vs say, 10awg blue jeans. Take your time there is no rush. See how often you picked the correct wire, or could even tell when the wire had been changed!
This is getting sort of long, so to close.
Think about human hearing. Think about hearing at certain ages. Think about hearing these so-called differences while music is being played. Think that seldom does one say wire sounds better, just different. How does guru wire change your listening perception of your copy of Beethoven's 9th, as opposed to the non guru wire? Just think. Remember people cannot even ID different amps and cd players with all the components involved. How can they ID a simple piece of wire? And lastly. How do the scam artists explain the reasons for all these benefits of their product? What do they do to the wire to make your soundstage wider? Change freq response? Sorry I was so long winded. I could go on, but won't. Unless you have questions.
Rok2id, Mr Randi's challenge is, as you allude to, was not about cables, but fear of failure. If I remember, correct me if I am wrong, you had to get 10 out of 10 changes correct.
A man was told to walk across a 10' long 2x4 which was laying on the ground for $20. He did so easily and collected his money. The board was then put across a 10' gap 10 stories high. He was told to walk across it again for the same money and he refused. It was the same easy walk, but the consequences of failure were higher.
I, and you too, could probably get close to 10 out of 10 with a fast/bright silver cable and a slow/ warm cable, but maybe I will get confused and fall 10 stories. It says nothing about the cables, just my fear.
Tobb, the cheap cables may sound better in your system ( lucky guy), but not in all systems. Reread what Al wrote. I'm glad you CAN hear the difference though. ;)
Polk Lsi15 speakers Sony XDR-1FHD HD Tuner Marantz SA8001 SACD player Marantz PM7200 Integrated Amp 95/155 wpc 8/4ohms Blue Jeans 10awg speaker cable 6ft runs Overkill! Monster ICs 4ft
Thanks for your interest. I think :) I once asked a very knowledgeable member for advice and he, being a very nice guy, said he was 'not familiar' with my equipment. I still LOL everytime I think of that. Even right now!
No apology is required or expected. I love a good spirited discussion. I was not offended in any way. And all of my comments, at least the not so nice ones, were directed at Jmcgrogan2. But I am not mad at him either. I just like the give and take. Wire? Lets just agree to disagree. I don't want to lose a good music member over this silly wire stuff. Thanks for the post. BTW, I think you and I are the ONLY people on this site to have actually apologized for things said in the heat of battle.
Cheers
Thank you for the kind words concerning music. I know at least three guys who would beg to disagree with that.:)
This is the first chance I had to read through all of this since my last post. It looks like I may have offended you. If I did, I'm really, really sorry. In some of the other threads, we've commented back and forth in good humour. I didn't think for a second you would take my last post seriously. To be honest, I don't share your views on cables, but who cares. I do, however, think your comments are honest and thats all anyone can ask. Also, some of your comments on other topics like music and recordings are some of the best I've ever read on this web site. So, once again, if I offended you in any way, I'm sorry.
I wonder who's more fortunate, those whose hearing is so compromised that differences between cables can't be discerned or those like myself who have spent not a small amount of money on cables and experience huge sonic benifits. Can't we just all get along?
the question posed is a variant of "are cables over priced" ?
this subject has been discussed before. the answer is still the same.
its a matter of economics. the value in use = the value in exchange. this means that a cable will sell for a price that the market will bear.
since the market for expensive cables is small, the demand is probably inelastic.
whether expectation, opinion or advertising creates demand is irrelevant. the issue is, does expensive cable sell in sufficient quantities to render viable, business that sell expensive cable?
From my personal experience cables do make a difference. But no where as close to a difference that the room treatments did. I had the Nordost Flat lines and then compared them with Nordost Blue Heavens and Signal Silvers. Currently have the Signals and am happy with them.
Rok2id probably belongs to avsforum, where they believe that ALL speakers, sources, cables and amplifiers sound the same - provided they are "level" matched. For me, it is just like saying all the cars like Doge Neon, Honda Fit, Acura TL, MBZ S500, Lamborghini Avantador and Buggati Veyron drive the same - provided they have the same horsepower...what the!!
Rok2id, it's only a matter of time before you'll have to refuse membership applications to this 'exclusive' posse because of excessive numbers and management of 'fringe' members. ;)
Cables are an essential part of a system. The quality is so good these days you can get to a higher level without them. I will give you 2 examples. In 2004 I did blind tests for clients. I had a cd player of 2000 euro with a powercable od 2600 euro. And a cd player of 5000 euro with our most sols powercable of 100 euro. All people choose for the cd player and powercable of 2600 euro. They all were very surprised. Last week I received the latest Purist Audio LE powercable. I have the best articulation I ever had. Of all the cd's I played hundreds of times I easily can hear all the endings of words during singing. Even with poweramps which were 2 times more expensive I did not have this level in articulation. Cables can ad new qualities in your system what equipment cannot do.
I'm glad to be an unofficial member of Rok2id's posse. He often makes more sense from a larger picture of audio and the search for symmetry with the human psyche. Plus, he exhibits a sense of humor often missing here. People can be deadly serious about audio from a myopic view and lash at others who care about components, cash or listening differently.
I stand to be corrected! We did a test this weekend with an 800.00 pair of interconnects that a contact loaned us and a 60.00 pair. I can hear the difference but it was not in favor of the 800.00 pair.
Thanks Al, for, as usual, calming things down with some facts and common sense.
Tobb, I meant no disrespect with my first response. It just seemed improbable to me that this subject could be brought up again; not much new that can be said about it. If you can't hear the difference (for whatever reason) in your current system, consider yourself fortunate and buy some new music instead. Regards.
02-17-13: Tobb I honestly can't hear a difference between Mega cable and a good old generic.
The reason for that is NOT necessarily that your system (or your ears) are lacking in (musical) resolution. Quoting from myself in this thread:
The degree to which cables will make a difference depends not only on the intrinsic characteristics and quality of the cable, and on the quality and musical resolution of the system, but perhaps just as significantly or even more so on interactions between the technical characteristics of the cable and those of what it is connecting. Impedances, for instance, among many other dependencies that could be cited which have no direct relation to the sonic quality of the system.
See my post dated 12-15-12 HERE for a summary of many of those interactions and dependencies. That post also describes a couple of examples of how a given cable can sometimes even have exactly opposite sonic effects depending on what it is connecting.
It should therefore be kept in mind that the ability of a system to resolve musical detail, and its ability to resolve differences between cables, are two different things. And sometimes there may even be an inverse relationship between the two.
Finally, it should be kept in mind that the sonic effects of line-level analog interconnects and speaker cables will be proportional to their length. A reduction in length will bring the performance of those cables closer to neutrality (i.e., closer to having no sonic effects), everything else being equal. That is not necessarily the case, though, with digital cables, phono cables, and power cords, due to the complexity and/or unpredictability of the interactions that are involved.
Well, I tried to be nice. My posts 'wreak' of facts! Listen, this is not about money. I can assure you I can afford anything I have ever seen on this site. I don't care how other people spend THEIR money. This is about Physics, science and human physiology. This is about common sense. This is about people spreading nonsense and trying to pass it off as truth. I am always amazed how, when someone criticizes anything on this site, the assumption is, jealousy or envy. I envy no one. What a petty mind people like you have. Most of the time I try to be provacative just to simulate discussion. Maybe you can talk for hours about the merits of the Thunderbolt Cyclone mark 6 speaker cable and the Black Widow Banshee mark 4 power cord. My eyes just glaze over. Post after post of sheer nonsense. Posted by people with absolutely no knowledge of electronics or sound wave theory, or Stereo equipment. Just 'audiophiles', As if they are a different species. Possessing SUPER SENSES. Let's not even mention music. Now, you could say, so what? What business is it of mine. I would reply, it's just the way HUMANS are made. To resist and expose ignorance and cheaters. To respond in the face of balant untruths. It's as simple as that. BTW, no one is required to read my posts.
It's interesting that no one responded to the points made in my posts. They just attacked me. I guess you own a few 'danceable' cables also. :)
What u heard may and may not count unless this was all done using blind test method..knowing which cable I which just doesn't cut it...so what was it sighted or blind...
02-17-13: Rok2id Did you read the two post I submitted?
Yes, I did, and quite frankly, they wreak of bitterness and jealousy.
If you are content with your $69 Timex, relax and enjoy life. Don't fret and blow up when others say their Tag Heuer's and Rolex's are better. You will never convince them otherwise, and your efforts only make you seem bitter and resentful at how they spend their money.
check out an the experiences of a former cable skeptic in pinkfish audio forum http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum
"Just killed my hifi with a cable change ...."
from a personal perspective, as I moved up the hardware $$ ladder from $2K, to $8K, and now to $35K, I experienced the cables upgrade (~ 10 to 15% of budget) that followed suit with not-subtle similar favourable results in audio improvement and satisfaction.
Jmcgrogan2: I am flabbergasted!!! Did you read the two post I submitted? Both were copies of info I got online. Are you saying the authors of the info were nuts also? I thought my comments were inline with all the other posters. Chayro was critical, and he was given the benefit of the doubt. People even 'explained' that he using sarcasm. I had no idea I was making a spectacle of my self. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll try to be more of a team player in the future.
My intent was not to stir up shite. I honestly can't hear a difference between Mega cable and a good old generic. Where I did see a difference was between balanced and RCA
If you have a mega dollar system, by all means better cables can make a difference although I never heard a huge difference myself, there is a difference. That said, butting the high dollar cable money into the equipment will get you a bigger bang for the buck.
Putting a system together that sounds good takes time and effort in your price range. Any system done right will get good sound. Your room also plays a part in it.
Rok2id, I agree with Zd542 here, you come off sounding like you have an ax to grind. Maybe you should go back on your meds, or at least stay away from Audiogon threads if they agitate you that much.
I was reading an article yesterday about Rafael Nadal's new $690,000 watch, and at no point did I find myself running around screaming that his watch was no different than my $69 Timex. That is how rational people behave. They allow others the freedom to choose items that do not interest them.
Seriously dude, chillax, before you pop a blood vessel and have a stroke.
This debate is hilarous! I have been in this bussiness for 25 years! even the wife of 2 years who knows nothing of cables watched a test to educate her with quality cables versus .50 i/c 1.00 afoot speaker cable and taking all the price points up from there to $24,000.00 8ft speaker cables and $16,000.00 I/C 1-meter, needless to say she learned alot,she is a beginner at that!outcome,a good brand of cables are the most important part of a system bar none!,,such as TaraLabs,purist audio,nordost,lessloss,kimber cables,k.s.elations,transparent cables,It really depends on your tast!,for instance, A person may like a ferrari and another a laborginni, they both are good,but one performs to what the buyer is looking for!
Zd542, I think you have me confused with someone else as pertains to wire. On this thread, I am just a messenger. All I posted, about cable, was from people a lot more knowledgeable than me. I just delivered the message. I didn't drink the Wire kool-aid, so I am not involved. Just trying to be helpful. HOWEVER, when some one says a cable is 'danceable', I have to speak. After all I am only human. There is only so much a human can take. I am not a player is the wire debate. Blue Jeans is all need.
They do sound different - period. More money spent does not always equat to improved sound. One just has to listen to several/many and pic what they like the best. This is very personal and subjective.
I have learned that spending more money won't nesseccarily get you better sound in your system and to your ears.
For me simple, well constructed solid core copper cables sound best. No special pureness or anything. Just plain old Teflon coated, solid core copper in various gauges all bundled into a very thick and stiff cable.
To my ears and likes, they sound better then all high dollar silver cables I have tried. Again...for me. Another may need to spend big money for those pure silver cables as they sound best to them. It's all good and listen on!
I think I struck a nerve with my psychology reference. Every time someone mentions the word cable, you start posting like someone who escaped from a mental institution. It can be painful to watch. I don't mean to pry, but I think its time you considered getting some professional help. Really, its for your own good. As a friend I would strongly urge you to take Nonoise's advice and give the Cable Company a call. Its the best institution for someone like you. If you're patient, honest with yourself, and make a commitment to work through this ordeal, I believe they can restore your sanity and get your cable house in order. At this point, you have nothing to loose.
The more resolving the equipment the more of the nuances between cable you can hear. I have heard and do believe they make a difference. For good or for bad. All the hoopla of manufacutre toting "you will hear the inner soul of your music" and "soundstages will unfold before you're very eyes" and such is just hyperbole. The reality it's more akin to nuance differences unless there is a serious mismatch issue going on with your system - IMHO of course. Either your base equipment has what your seeking it or it doesnt, no amount of cable tweaks will make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Ultimately the $'s one spends has diminishing returns, so in the end the worth you put on cables is up to you.
Amazing just how short it takes to go into the weeds. And flounder there. Hopefully, this thread will have a short life.
Personally, I've found that there is a difference but the differences pale in comparison to the price the higher up you go.
Tobb, have your tried different cables? If not, go to http://www.thecableco.com/ and try their 30 day trial program. All you'll be out is shipping costs and 5% of the cable price-you can decide for yourself.
Anyone need a quick cool million? Better hurry before some guru beats you to it. Btw, this is not the only million dollars on the table. Others have offered the same thing. The oracle at stereophile raised his hand, but quickly backed off. I guess he pondered the consequences of failure. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Pear ANJOU Speaker Cables – $7,250
Pear Cable Corporation’s ANJOU Speaker Cable, a 12 foot length of which retails for $7,250, reportedly “allow new levels of sonic accuracy to be explored.” Supposedly, this exploration is accomplished by “proprietary hybrid geometry,” “ultra low electrical reactance” and “fully annealed 99.999% pure oxygen free Copper.”
In response to a glowing review by Dave Clark, editor of Positive Feedback, in which he refers to the cables as “very danceable”, the James Randi Educational Foundation offered a million-dollar prize to anyone who can prove beyond the shadow of doubt that these expensive speaker cables actually perform better (to the human ear, mind you) than Monster Cable’s $80 HDMI cables. While the prize is available to anyone who can prove the superiority of the ANJOU cables, the JREF unabashedly directs this challenge at Mr. Clark himself. In fact, the JREF apparently has MANY SUCH UNCLAIMED prizes for audiophiles who can PROVE that certain exotic piece of audio equipment are actually as exceptional as they claim.
“very danceable” hahahahhahahahhah REALLY!!! Just the facts! Use them as you will. :)
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