There is a wide variety of opinions out there. What do you think? |
Why is it that when someone can't hear, or dosen't want to hear, differences in cables, they always start talking about psychology? |
Rok2id,
I think I struck a nerve with my psychology reference. Every time someone mentions the word cable, you start posting like someone who escaped from a mental institution. It can be painful to watch. I don't mean to pry, but I think its time you considered getting some professional help. Really, its for your own good. As a friend I would strongly urge you to take Nonoise's advice and give the Cable Company a call. Its the best institution for someone like you. If you're patient, honest with yourself, and make a commitment to work through this ordeal, I believe they can restore your sanity and get your cable house in order. At this point, you have nothing to loose. |
Rok2id,
This is the first chance I had to read through all of this since my last post. It looks like I may have offended you. If I did, I'm really, really sorry. In some of the other threads, we've commented back and forth in good humour. I didn't think for a second you would take my last post seriously. To be honest, I don't share your views on cables, but who cares. I do, however, think your comments are honest and thats all anyone can ask. Also, some of your comments on other topics like music and recordings are some of the best I've ever read on this web site. So, once again, if I offended you in any way, I'm sorry. |
I think the real problem here is that people on both sides of the argument are letting their emotions dictate where all of this is going. As the thread goes on, everyone just gets more aggravated and the insults keep piling up; on both sides.
"Here Irv, you are implying that if it cannot be measured, it cannot be heard. So don't say that you and Rok aren't making any implications or statements about science being your master. We say if it can be heard but not measured, science hasn't figured out what to measure yet.
I can take two speakers that measure the same, yet they will not sound the same, why is that? Science can't explain that..........yet."
I just want to clarify what I think we are talking about here. And that is, are we able to hear differences in the way differences cables sound? That's the question I want to answer. Issues such as whether one think cables are priced fairly or how much of a difference they make, is for another thread. That stuff is just personal opinion; everyones answer is valid.
Looking at the above quote from Jmcgrogan2, I have to disagree. Just because you can't measure the differences in the way cables sound, using traditional measurements, doesn't mean you can't use science to prove the differences exist. Measuring is just one scientific method. If all we are looking to do is confirm that 2 cables can sound different from each other, a well conducted listening test is just as valid.
I've worked in this industry for most of my adult life and had the opportunity to be involved in many listening tests over the years (Not all of the tests involved cables. We tested other components, as well.). The results are very clear. Even factoring in for error the evidence was such that there could be no possibility of a chance occurrence. The differences were real.
I fully understand that I won't even come close to changing anyones opinion on the matter. And that's fine. No one has any good reason to take my word for anything. I will suggest, though, since so many people take the time to post on threads like this, they really care about this issue. Why not just get together with a few people that share this common interest, and conduct some of your own tests? I can't tell you what the results will be, but I'm pretty sure no one will regret taking part in it. |
Jmyc,
"I've never had a client "hear the cables" and that's because relatively inexpensive Mogami cable is completely neutral to the human ear."
How do you know that? What makes the Mogami cables completely neutral compared to other cables? I find that cables tend to be system dependant. Maybe, in a different system, another brand might more neutral than the Mogami. Or am I not reading your post correctly. |
I'm somewhat reluctant to admit I once had a $5000 watch, as well. It made me feel guilty every time I wore it. I ended up getting rid of it and buying a pair of cables with the money. The guilt just went away. |
Jmyc,
I just read my last post. How I worded it sounds a little negative and/or challenging. I didn't mean to give that impression. I'm just interested as to how you came to that conclusion with regard to the Mogamy cables. |
Audiolabyrinth,
I think you get more enjoyment out of this site than anyone. Did you see the thread with the washing machine. I laughed so hard I thought I cracked a rib. I'm still sore and its been 2 days. |
The thread is: DOES YOUR EQUIPMENT KEEP GOING?. The OP gives a link to a youtube video. |
Audiolabyrinth,
I thought the Rokhead was bad. Don't take this the wrong way, but it just might be time for you to take your meds. Or maybe you should stop taking them. Or get different ones. Or something.
I should have mentioned this before, but you may want to check out the web site computeraudiophile.com. If you like arguments and insults pertaining to anything involving high end audio, this is your website. You should be able to occupy yourself for hours over there. |
Audiolabyrinth,
I didn't take you the wrong way. I've read too many of your posts to know you are nothing other than a good guy. I know what you are saying about the insults; I don't like them either. Computeraudiophile is like a good sport. Its fun to watch every so often.
Waxwaves,
Let me take it a step further. If you don't clean your ears at all, it will be a perfectly good excuse to buy new equipment. You'll need better components to compensate for all the wax in your ears.
Nyaudio98,
Regarding your last post; Correct. Speaker companies want to make the best products they can. To do that, you need the best parts. |
The funny part is that I'm not kidding. I really don't know of any high end cable companies that give cables to studios. It sounds like a good idea. I'd do it if I had a cable company. Maybe its politics. Maybe its business. Where do you draw the line? $1000 per meter seems like a good cutoff point. I'm really not sure. |
A little crazy? You're just being modest.
"all of the members have been talking to each other a long time, and it seems at times they do not like someone new!"
Too bad. You have every right to post, just like they did when they were new members. |
"Bare in mind also that many of the top very expensive Cable companie's will give away their cable's to famous studio's, concert hall's, and Artist's so they can put in their company resume's that these famous sources use their product's."
Can you list some examples? |
Bo1972,
"I love audio so much, because I love to test. And Always looking for the best. This testing will never stop untill I die."
Yes, but be careful. When Audiolabyrinth catches you saying Audioquest is the best, even better than Tara, the day may come too soon. When he finds out that I use my Tara cables in my #2 system, and my AQ cables in my #1 system, maybe he'll get me too. LOL! |
"07-02-13: Bo1972
@Jmcgrogan2, this was new for me. If you were not allowed to have your own oppinion. And they really believe that cables do not matter. They do not want to talk about it. How stuppid you can be? I Always say; more than 90% of everything in sound and vision is not that special. But......I Always want to Judge first before I know how good or bad it is. And wenn I do not know it, I say: I can not say anything about it. How simple things can be....
Bo1972 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
07-02-13: Jmcgrogan2
@Bo1972, there are many out there who believe in listening with their eyes. They let specifications tell them what they can and cannot hear. Go figure. "
I don't get those people either. They claim to be objective yet everything they do is subjective. They advocate the use of science to evaluate audio equipment, but they do it from such a biased and emotional standpoint the science becomes a joke. Only the tests that yield results to support the objective claims are used, while others are labeled no valid. What I find is the most amazing thing in all of this, is the amount of time they dedicate in trying to talk other people into believing they have some type of psychological issue if you disagree with them. You would think its their lifes work. |
"Now if you need eye candy there are vendors everywhere sell that to ya and all kinds of snake oil available too."
I think I found the problem. We are talking about audio cables here. You need to listen to them, not watch them. Try that and you'll get much better results.
Also, what's snake oil? |
He's right about Naim. People usually buy Naim for some of the other qualities it has, but not for imaging. |
Bo1972,
I also have a question about the Onkyo receiver you mentioned. When you talk about 3D I always thought you were talking about 2 channel. The Onkyo is a HT receiver. Are you using all the channels or just the front 2? (For music, not movies) |
"But there were people who did not hear it. The person of Nordost became irritated that he didn't hear it. So he made a big misstake."
The person from Nordost did hear it. He was just mad that you could hear it too. |
Iblieve,
So what you are saying is that if I buy a pair of B&W 805D's, its not because of how they sound, but about other things, like marketing and status? |
Tpcarter,
You're right, but you're pissing in the wind. I've tried to make the same argument at least a thousand times. The only thing I can tell you for certain, is that for people who argue the opposite position, this has nothing to do with cables. You won't get anywhere with them. |
Its interesting that you bring up Naim. Personally, I like the concept of Naim, but I don't think the performance is equal to the cost. The Naim components I've owned, over the years, wasn't in the same league as comparable products from other brands. And I understand that may not be the case for all of their products, but that was my experience. Getting back to the cable discussion, I was thinking about trying a Naim CD player, so I went out to a dealer to demo one. I brought a CD player along with some cables that I normally use with it. To make a long story short, the AQ cables I brought with me made the Naim cables sound defective. They were just in a different league. Not to mention Naim cables are balanced and mine were SE.
I wonder how they would like this story over on the Naim forum? lol.
"08-21-15: Williewonka
Macdad - the investment in developing cable architectures, choosing a wire and plugs, spec-ing you own cable designs is significant and a whole different science compared to circuits and quality parts."
That's another good point. People always use the argument that cables are just wires and they're not as hard to make as a component. In many cases I would agree with that, but like anything else, there are some products that genuinely stand out. Here's a couple of examples I use that usually win people over. Cardas is one. If you search on the internet, you can find pics of Cardas cables that are stripped down so you can see how they are put together. To view it in sales literature is one thing, but when you see the actual cable, its just amazing. Nordost is another. Aside from the connectors, they have to make everything in house using special designs and machines. If you look closely at some of their work, the attention to detail is flawless. The way they apply the dielectric to the conductors looks like something NASA would make. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if they needed Al to help them.
Anyway, I could give more examples, but with some cables, I feel the price is justified given what it takes to make them. And of course, you still need to know what you are doing when you buy them or you can waste a lot of money. |
We all need to make our own choices. If, for example, you don't see the value in buying an expensive pair of cables, then don't. It would be foolish to do otherwise. If someone else wants to spend more, that's OK too. And when people make expensive mistakes, I'm more than happy to buy like new cables at a huge discount. |
"It's NAIM's entry level - but the reason I liked it soooo much was it's amazing clarity, natural tones and punch - and the reason for that is it's passive front end."
Are you sure about that? I had the same amp and it certainly didn't sound like it had a passive line stage. To me, it sounded active. |
I definitely had a 5i. I guess it had a passive line stage and I never knew. Surprising, because it didn't sound like one. |
I bought the 5i because I was looking to put together a small system for a house I rented in CO for a year. I was curious to see how good an integrated in this price range would sound, given some of the positive comments I was hearing. If you don't have a lot of experience with passives, the main reason people use them is because its very difficult to get a good sounding active line stage for a low price. Many people feel that is you can't get a good active preamp, use a passive or a source with a volume control instead. Needless to say, I'm one of those people. I should also mention that I'm very sensitive to high frequencies, so some of the things that bothered me about the 5i, may not bother you.
The best way that I can describe the overall sound of the Naim is that its not clean sounding. (There was nothing wrong with it. I was able put it next to another one in a store and the sound was identical.) When I first tried it with a pair of B&W LM-1's I had on my PC, the Naim sounded fine. But the B&W was a fairly dull sounding speaker with not too much detail. I needed a real pair of speakers, so I went out and bought a pair of Vandersteen 1's. When I put the Naim on those, it just fell apart. It's true that the Vandersteen is much more detailed and resolving, but its easy to drive and I don't think it was unfair to the Naim to pair it with that speaker. Naim said either the 1's or 2's would be OK.
What let me to believe that the Naim had a passive line stage, was the high frequencies. They weren't refined at all, as well as an overall harshness. It just sounded like a typical, cheap active line stage. I also had 2 other amps I bought to try; a Creek 5350SE and a Musical Fidelity A3.5. The MF was a bit cleaner sounding overall, and had a lot more power, but the highs sounded, more or less, like the Naim. The line stage in the MF I know is definitely active. The real test was when I put it next to the Creek. The 5350 does have a passive LS. When I put that in the system, there was an immediate difference. The highs were completely relaxed, but had more detail. There was no question that I was listening to a much better quality active preamp, or a passive. The difference was not at all subtle.
I should also point out, prior to my time with the Naim, I had quite a bit of experience using passives, so the Naim wasn't really a learning experience for me. I kind of know what to expect when I hear both designs. Not only that, don't read too much into what I'm saying here. You have the Naim and are getting excellent results. That's all that matters. It wasn't the right amp for me, but it definitely is the right amp for you. Don't let me, or anyone else, talk you out of enjoying your system.
|
Danoroo,
I may be able to give you some insight with regards to cables. After reading your post, it looks like you are approaching the cable issue from a purely subjective standpoint. Like you say, there's no consensus, so if you want answers you'll need to take matters into your own hands. I think I can speak for the majority of people on this site when I say this how we had to do it. And we get different results due to the variety of factors involved.
The only advice I can give you is don't spend too much money until you know what you're doing. And even then, be careful. |
"There is a thread here, somewhere, where Douglas Schroeder (a reviewer) tried out a high end Van Alstine ABX Comparator Switchbox and it was like a cold bucket of water in the face as it was impossible to tell the difference between amps with levels properly matched but the kicker was the biggest difference was between cables. It was very easy for him to hear the differences."
And people wonder why I don't trust audio reviews. So all our amps will sound the same if we match our levels? But our cables won't? No wonder people buy cables that cost more than their components. |
"09-12-15: Nonoise
I expected such a response.
We're all reviewers of some sort, no? What makes us, here, so special? I tried to find the thread here where he mentions it but couldn't."
It was one of the silliest I've ever heard. It makes no sense. Your minds already made up, so it would be a waste of time discussing the matter.
I'll make 1 quick point. I went over to his website and had a look at a few of his amp reviews. In his own reference system he has a $31,000 amp. And when he compares the differences in sound between them, they are anything but small or subtle.
Its the complete opposite of this.
"My memory wasn't as good as I thought so I went and dug up the article and after quite an exhaustive set up and conditioning, he could discern differences but they were slight. Repeatable but slight. There were enough clues to go on but how many here go to that length?"
Which is it? If the differences are so small, why buy a $31,000 amp? He's clearly not taking his own advice. |
"I believe that's more than one word."
I was referring to the review he did on the Wells Audio amp on dagogo May 2015. If he had such a profound experience with the ABX tester he just reviewed in April 2015, I would expect to see it take part in any amp reviews he did from that point on. To not do so makes no sense. The Momentum review is there too, 12/14. |
"09-12-15: Nonoise
Z, you're quickly becoming the resident crank, if not already. Hyperbole is your vessel. You're as over the top with knee jerk reactions as anyone I've seen. It must be nice up there on Olympus throwing those (oh so hurtful, my, my) thunderbolts of wisdom."
I make no apologies for thinking and coming to conclusions that are different than yours, or anyone elses.
"How you came to the conclusion that my mind was already made up is beyond me. Quoting someone to add perspective doesn't translate to a closed mind. It's just another perspective added to the mix (keep your options open)."
I go by your words.
"I'm in no way going full Pete Aczel here but if you if you do match levels and don't clip the amp, the cables will make a bigger difference."
"Also, anyone can go to his website and see the many amps he's reviewed but the ABX comparator review came afterwards. I don't believe he's done an amp review since. There is a timeline here of sorts that would make it apparent to just about anyone who'd care to do a proper search."
You may want to take your own advice here and do another search. He did the ABX thing in April 2015. Heres an excerpt from an amp he reviewed in May 2015.
"Using the D’Agostino as an example of a component that makes an immediate impression in the best sense of the word, so does the Innamorata Signature, but in a very different way. So different in fact I had never really heard anything like it. No, the Wells Audio Innamorata Signature did not best the D’Agostino but it did reveal a bit of dryness in comparison. What the Innamorata has is a midrange and treble that is so creamy and liquid smooth without resulting in any darkness or muting. The overall effect is hard to describe. Textures are downright juicy, they are never harsh or overly bright. Horns in particular just pour out tone and texture. And vocals? Outstanding. Violin and Piano, two of the toughest instruments to get right are handled with such liquidity and proper tone, making for an incredibly seductive presentation.
The D’Agostino Momentum has a beguiling level of neutrality and resolution, particularly in the treble, resulting in every song unfolding into vast landscape to explore. There is simply more information passing through the D’Agostino. That said, the Wells Audio Innamorata Signature’s treble is so well integrated with the mid band making for a seamless presentation on par with the best, it leaves little on the table in the upper frequencies. Very sweet in tone, this is unapologetically beautiful sound. As for the comparison I have been making with the D’Agostino, I have not mentioned that it is nearly 5 times the price of the Innamorata Signature. As for choosing anything near the Innamorata’s price point I’m all over the Innamorata for center stage in my system."
I just don't see what kind of legitimate argument you can make after reading that. Like I said in my last post, this is the complete opposite of the claims made in the ABX test. Not only that, given that this review was published just a few weeks AFTER the ABX review, you would expect that experience to have at least some impact on his reviews going forward. Not 1 word is mentioned. |
"Innomarata on 5/15 is from another reviewer, Greg Petan, not Douglas Schroeder. If there is another review by Schroeder on it I'd love to see a link to it."
I was looking at looking at something that Schroeder wrote on dagogo, and I thought that was a link to all of his reviews. I don't know how I missed that, but I was clearly in error. I should have been more careful. |
"09-20-13: Audiolabyrinth
@ Mrtennis, Hi, Thankyou, looking at the audio visor catalog, they show the tubes with no pins for tube sockets, It clearly shows the tubes with wires coming straight from the bottom of the tubes, It is a pic with the tubes out side of the unit,"
Definitely check with Vincent first, but I'm almost certain you're talking about a tube that hasn't been terminated (terminated may not be the proper word for it). But if its a bunch of solid core wires that come out of the bottom of the tube, they get snipped off. After that they put the plastic housing over the bottom of the raw wires. The housing has the key way and the pins that actually go into the tube socket. I think they are showing you a picture of a tube before its finished being made. |
I think I see the problem here. I may actually be able to settle this whole debate. (Although I wouldn't bet on that.)
High end audio is a hobby/interest. Like any such activity there are all levels of knowledge an skill. Generally speaking, really expensive audio products, cables or otherwise, are meant for people who know what they want and know what they are doing. This has nothing to do with being a snob or having a lot of money.
Where most people in audio go wrong is that they circumvent learning from experience with learning from magazine reviews and other peoples opinions. There's no substitute for setting up and evaluating an audio system yourself. Read all the magazines you want, take all the math classes you want, and listen to all the people you want, and you still wont know all that much about getting good sound. The reason for that is its a subjective process. Everyone wants something different.
In the beginning of my post I said I may be able to end the discussion. (I'm not actually suggesting that people should stop talking or comments shouldn't be made. I just want to help with all the confusion). The way to get cables right is to learn by listening, in the context of what your experience level is and your system. If you can't tell if a cable is good or not, or even worth the money, you have no business buying it. Its just that simple. You need to do the evaluation and make the decision yourself; every time. Anything less than that and you are just asking for problems. You may argue things like, "theres no local dealer", or "I don't have the time" or "I don't have the experience" or "It'll take too long to build the system that way". I'm sorry but thats just the way it goes.
Think of it like this. I'm a skier. I can read all the ski reviews I want but I take the time to get demo skis and head out to the mountain. I try the skis in every possible situation to make sure they do what I need them to do and I'll be safe in the process. I could just take the easy way out and buy the best rated skis and go to the top of a steep mountain and see what happens. If I lose control and smack right into a tree, who's fault will it be? Mine. Not only that, I deserve it for being so stupid in the first place. Same thing with audio. |
Mitch2,
So what you are trying to say is that if you choose your components carefully, then all you need the cables to do is transfer signal from one component to the next? That will probably make choosing the right cable a lot easier and far less costly. No?
Audiolabyrinth,
"I am one of the gentlemen you are referring to!, I believe cables are, if not more important than eanything in a system!, Thats my many, many years experience!, Its just an opinion!, like yours!, my cables cost way more than my entire system cost!, and my system is an exspensive one to me!, I have about $65,000.00 retail price!"
You must have a mean streak. You through out a comment like that and you don't even say what kind of cables you have! If they're that good, I need to get some. If I had to guess I'd say Kimber, or maybe Monster? Which one is it? |
Audiolabyrinth,
I know its probably not broken in yet, but I was just wondering what you think of your new PC so far?
Bo1972,
"Many people who say my hobby is audio often are not even happy with it. This says a lot. So be aware!!!"
In many cases, I think people expect too much from an audio system. When that happens, they don't look at things with a "healthy" mindset. There's no better example than cables. When you first start out, most people think its crazy that cables will make a difference you can hear. (I'm no exception). Then when you are to see they do make a difference, people tend to become excited over this and forget the rest of the system. When that happens they have no focus and forget its very important to have balance in a system.
"Wenn people say: audio is my hobby. Many times I have my doubts. I did visit people with audio sets over 70.000 euro and they had about 30-40 cd's. I saw it as my job to let them know that at the end it should be about music, never about audio."
You're absolutely correct. Its one of the biggest reasons people fail or give up on audio. There's no sense running around with the same handful of audiophile recordings to test equipment if thats not what you want to listen to. A system needs to be built around your musical tastes and the recordings you listen, to in order for you to be happy. |
"Audiolabyrinth says the Taralabs are to die for, I can try those to see if what he says is true. It's the dinero they want for a simple interconnect that costs nothing to produce that bothers me."
If you wanted to make a rectangular solid core conductor to put in an audio cable, how would you go about doing that for nothing? |
"However, He did say the cheaper cd players and a couple of the cheap pre-amps have hard wired tubes!, mmmmm."
That's incredible. Hard wire tubes? At some point they are going to go bad and will need to be replaced. Makes no sense.
Bo1972,
I enjoyed reading your review of the Olive. I like how you compared it to other products. Its a very 3D review. It is that simple!! |
"Wenn I had discussions about this with Nordost they Always became quite irritated."
I believe you. |
"08-12-15: Williewonka
ZD542 - I think it makes more sense to some people that a more expensive component provides better performance rather than cables - after all, they employ things like quality circuit boards, quality electrical components, quality power supplies - these are bound to sound better - since they do cost more!"
I was responding to Tpcarter's post only and not comparing how much of a difference cables make vs active components. I wrote this last week.
" I've read some reviews online and it seems very difficult to purchase cables without auditioning, but this is my situation. I really want to bring out the best of the Olympica III's, the soundstage, midrange warmth, instrument/vocal placement, and overall seductiveness of the speakers."
The only thing I can tell you for sure is that its not going to happen. What you're talking about are major component differences and qualities. Amp, preamp, speakers etc. Cables may effect those areas, but nowhere near the level that components do. When you read reviews, the descriptions they use make it sound like a pair of cables will have the same impact on your sound as a pair of speakers. The differences with cables are usually much less.
The second, and more important thing that reviews lack are difficulty levels. If you're new to audio, its not easy to pick through a bunch of cables looking for differences. The differences are there, but there's no guarantee that you're going to find them. It takes a lot of listening and experience to do this. The last thing you want to do is rush in and spend a lot of money.
So my recommendation would be to keep your 3k in your pocket, and spend about $100-200 on speaker cables. At least for now.
Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread) |
