Often when I visit people at home they bought something what has good reviews. A review is often an opinion of a person. Or it has been paid by a brand. It says a lot less than we often think. And yes there are good reviews. But the % what is not good is a lot bigger. The other problem most people make in this business is that they do not know the properties of what they bought. Audio is the art of making the right combination of different stuff. And what I also see often is that people bought quite expensive speakers. Compared to the stuff were they drive it with. I say to all these people; you drive at about 30% of the quality your speaker can give. The % is often too low because the speaker can give a wider and deeper stage. It can give a better sound realims then the sound it plays at that moment. The speed and control is often not the best. Lack of resolution, or the instruments and voices are not that really sharp focusses. What I do is bringing in a amp which can show them the things they miss. Or call it a mirror to understand what the speaker can do better. Money in audio does often not say a thing at all. I compare all the time with other amps, sources, cables, conditioners etc. To open the ears and eyes of these people. So I bring it with me to show them. On and on and on.....
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@calloway : please if you want to be credible to me, you should use another example than cars! Cars are mechanics! Porsche use better engineering than Kia and it's not meant for the same purpose and use. Of course there is fame in car's business too (Ferrari is not reliable like Porsche for example) but it's mainly mechanic. Watches are mechanic too. There is fame too but you can't deny the engineering behind some brands. Hifi is quite different. There is engineering but it's mainly a marketing and fame business! Usher audio for example is one of the best brand in the world. When you compare a CP-8571 to a Wilson Sasha 3, you buy the Usher! Another brand like XTZ for example uses the same drivers you can find on very high end brands for a fraction of the price! How can you explain the difference of price then? Of course you can argue on the quality of the component and the crossover craft. Usher work with Dc. D'apollito, probably one of the best engineer in Hifi business. And the prices are still lower?! When you own a Sasha, a B&W 800 or any other high-end speaker, you buy the marketing, the advertising on magazines, the shows... and a lot of FAME! One of my relatives bought a 805Di for the look and fame. When he tried it at home, it was crap! After comparing it with a BE-718, he cried over his bank account! So anyone can think he own a system only for the performance but, deep inside, there is pride... |
I am not going to say that a person bought B&W for just the name. But.....I owned the 802N and the 800S. And yes B&W is incomplete. Why? because they do not make and use the best crossovers. I got aware of this because I could compare it with other speakers. I am a perfectionist and only interested in the best. So yes B&W is not able to give the absolute sound. WhY? Because a deep and wide stage ( which B&W cannot give) is an essential part for the absolute sound. This gives an important part in 3-dimensional sound. This is the most stunning and concinving part in highend audio. There is no discussion about this. This is said by a person who player for over 8 years with the best B&W speakers. They make fine speakers, still today. But not the best. It is as it is. It is just as simple as it is!! |
Bose is the by far the lowest level in audio what I ever sold. I call it a 4.8 ( scale 1 to 10) for the money. We compared it all the time with other brands. So who buys it? Often wenn a woman is the boss in a relationship. When you sell it, after some time you recognise the Bose buyers. Is it all bad? No it is not, after some time they got some credits. When you needed something 1 day later it was there. Prospects, speakers everything is often all in stock. Bose pays a lot of money on advertising, and yes this need to be paid back. So yess you get less quality for the money ( 4.8, you could get a 10 (A) as well) People often believe what they hear. How stuppid you can be? People are screwed all the time in the world of audio and vision. So use your own eyes and ears and don't let them fool you!! |
isn't hype essentially, exaggerated claims, not supported by facts ?? thus hype is opinion, but it may not represent a person's true opinion, but rather put forth to help sell a product. if so, hype is not limited to the sale of cables. value is purely subjective. it is a $$ amount a person thinks a product is worth. thus the question is rhetorical, since the two subjects in the sentence are like apples and oranges. |
The best products in cables can give a big positive influence on the overwhole sound of a system. And is worth the money. This is why I use blind auditions and a b comparisons all the time. I Always try to create the best sound for the money. These days it is very easy to let people hear a better sound with a source of 2000 dollar with a cable of 1000 dollar compared to a source of 4000 dollar with a cable of 100 dollar. But the problem is that the % avrage or poor products is very big. This is why people say cables are more hype than value. So yes it is true because of the many average and low level in quality of most cables. But you find it in all different kind of audio products. When the focus of many audioshops is making as much money as possible, you Always sell less quality to your clients. I have seen this in 15 years a lot and it makes me angry sometimes. Because I work at the opposite of this way. You need to love music and audio to do it the right way. |
I have actually read through this ENTIRE thread so I must be masochistic. My system is worth closer to $10K than $20K so some would opine that my setup is not very resolving and therefore I cannot hear differences in cables. They may be right, and it is good to "know" that I can still make very hearable component upgrades without succumbing to mind numbing discussions about speaker wire. |
I was a none believer until recently. I was using homemade speaker cables using audioquest type 8 wire at 5 feet. Interconnects are 15 feet of Canare /Nutech xlr. My system is magnepan 20.7 with krell amps and AR Ref 5 pre. I auditioned AQ Comet speaker cables and Colorado xlr's. Frankly I thought wire was wire but yes I heard a difference. The speaker cable was maybe 1% difference but the xlr is rather big. I cannot listen to the Canare anymore. It's muddy. I still do not want to spend this kind of money even though I can swing it. So a compromise. AQ Rocket 88 speaker wire and Columbia xlr. Should be decent, I spend about half the money so let's me rationalize the purchase. |
O.K. Lets get into this subject as I just argued on the subject with a reviewer. Most systems do not have the ability to resolve these differences completely. The user must have a trained ear in that they know what they are listening to and what it should sound like. Getting past these two hurdles is difficult as most of us look at the ticket of a system and then start our conclusions relative to that,this is not the correct way to listen for review/results. I have had the good fortune to audition many cable products on many systems for free!! Here is my take the $$$$ guarantee how much you are into your fixation,but not the quality of performance. I can tell you it is subjective of course,but to say that a certain brand is great in all categories is foolish. Here is an example,I am at a fellow audiophiles' home his 2ch system is $600,000 and he has a elite cable manufacture in his home to demo his wares.First we auditioned the interlinks and it was a pleasant improvement,next we move to power with and without his interlinks this was a let down but ever so slight was the difference,but the cost was an insulting $5000 for 6' power and it was muddy. Guess what my buddy bought $100,000+ of this stuff. Why did he? The manufactures techno-babble pitch won the prize. Example Oyide R1 ac recepticle tested agianst leviton orange hospital grade. I have a 165 lbs ferro-resonant power conditioner hooked directly to my service with 15'6 gauge wire at 220volts steped down to 120, it has about 14 outlets. I have a fiend over and I swapped an leviton for the oyide.The test was simple same phase leg,alternate between the R1 and leviton. First choice by my friend was literally wrong he picked leviton thinking it was the R1 being more transparent and open.His second attempt was R1 by brand but but for an exagerated detail in a stand up bass fingering,when I put the passage back to the original he agreed it was grainy and bright. I like to meet the man who can walk into the a room and identify the sound of a smeared sounding system due to the nano-second delayed release from a higher dielectric absorption! Has anyone run the test of the sonic properties of carbon fiber(buzz word)connectors?In conclusion yes there are differences in cables some make improvements that are amazing but most are not worth the value. Oh forgot to mention I do make my own cables and friends of mine have noticed pleasing differences.So I don't buy the hyped stuff ever.The Pear site is a wonderful example of tech-no hype. Conclusion cables do make a difference but are mostly over-hyped,10 gauge wire or braided romex for power is an low grade improvement compared to run of the mill supplied cords, acquired knowledge of wire and geometry is a skill that does work. |
I am about to try my first explicit power wire update experiment ever. The insulation on power cord to my DAC is a bit frayed near the connector, so I am using that as an excuse to replace it and see if I can do better. So I have ordered a $200+ Pangea cord that is on sale for $70 currently. My justification for picking that particular cord is I want top try something that is designed to work well with digital that should produce some improvement/change of significance over my current stock cord which is heavy duty and well suited for an amp perhaps but nothing special for digital. FOr digital, shielding against both emmission of noise through the wire by the digital DAC and reception of noise from other nearby wires/devices (which I know can be a problem with my setup based on history) is the main technical benefit I can see on paper with this particular power cord. I'll report back when I get it and have a chance to assess. |
I don't know if this helps or helps but here is a lecture headed by stereophiles john Atkinson. After the 16 min of intro he turns it over to Keith Johnson. This is the guy you want to listen to. And even though it's mostly about digital jitter and such towards the end He gives a little insight on cables. http://youtu.be/QsVqCID029g |
I have a very “clear” system that reveals subtle nuances, whatever they might be. The system itself cost around $25,000, and it took me about three years to piece it together. Which means I auditioned a lot of components, getting the chance to hear them together in my house. And yes, one amplifier did indeed sound different than another. Same with speakers. And SAME WITH CABLES. So, do cables make a difference to me (and my non-audiophile friends) in my system? Absolutely. Clearly. Indisputably. Since I have listened mostly to different interconnects after deciding on my speaker wires long ago, I’ll address those primarily. One interconnect reveals a very different sound than another. Some highlight the midrange, some the bass. Some are well-balanced; some are not. Some sound “round” and “warm,” and others sound “flat” and “cold.” Some reveal a very airy and “floaty” sonic image that hovers in a huge soundstage; others reveal dense images that seem much less delineated. Some sound “real,” with lifelike timbres, and others sound electronic, metallic, or otherwise artificial. Even digital cables which some skeptics state shouldn’t make any difference at all … can make a HUGE difference. My latest purchase was a digital cable that revealed a very well-rounded sonic spectra; when I compared it to several others of equal price, even, the difference was so clear that even my wife (an admitted non-audiophile) heard it. No mistaking the difference. So, it baffles me that some skeptics can’t seem to hear the difference (or they’ve decided there couldn’t be one so they don’t even try?). I’m not sure what’s going on there, since the difference is so incredibly obvious to me and thousands of other intelligent audiophiles. (While I can only guess at this, I imagine I’m not the only skeptical and intellectually-capable audiophile out there. I’m not easily duped, let me assure you; my critical thinking skills are quite well-developed!) It is potentially telling, though, that many skeptics mention Monster cables as if they were supposedly excellent. Now THAT’S a marketing scam right there! Monster cables are just one tiny step above $1.99 cent RCA interconnects available at Radio Shack! Most people who have taken the time to truly listen to hundreds of cables (aka “audiophiles”) know this about Monster, just as they know the same about Bose! That said, I do use a Monster power strip, having found (after much auditioning) that it has a great synchrony with my system, ultimately resulting in the sound that I like best. Anyway, to any potential purchasers of audiophile equipment who think that “if a skeptic says it, it must be true,” I suggest you listen for yourself. If you have a very low to mid-range system that doesn’t reveal much of the characteristics of its components, it might very well not make an audible difference what cables/interconnects you use. (That said, depending on your ears and musical sensitivities, it might!) But … if you are going for an ultimate system that you’d like to tweak for optimum effect, please trust me (and thousands like me) enough to listen for yourself. While cost is not the significant element (some cables costing less will sound much better than those that cost more), different cables DO SOUND DIFFERENT. Thanks for reading. And please, don’t just believe the naysayers because skepticism is often equated with a more discerning intellect. I’m a skeptic, insisting on more critical research and independent assessment than most sane people could stand before I’ll believe anything (:-), and I have “heard the light”! |
Tpcarter - cables can make a difference to systems of all price points. Personally, I've had great success upgrading power and speaker cables on my Yamaha mini system ($340) and my neighbours boom box ($250) benefited in clarity and bass control with just a simple power cable upgrade. What cables you select and how they work with your system - i.e. synergy can be significant as to whether you hear a difference - or not. Personally, I think the order in which you upgrade can play a role - I start by upgrading power cables, then speaker cables and finally IC's - that way I can hear the subtleties IC's bring to the party :-) As for why others do not hear improvements - this hobby/obsession can be fickle and complexities like room acoustics, speaker placement, musical tastes and other anomolies can play a significant role masking the subtleties cables can bring to the performance. And these are just a few things I've experienced in my "cable journey" over the years. Unfortunately there is no sure fire formula - wish there was :-) Regards |
ZD542 - I think it makes more sense to some people that a more expensive component provides better performance rather than cables - after all, they employ things like quality circuit boards, quality electrical components, quality power supplies - these are bound to sound better - since they do cost more! But cables ? It's only a piece of wire! AND they're passive! How could they possibly improve sound quality simply by having... - better quality conductors & connectors - more effective cable architectures - noise cancelling conductor geometries - etc... Unfortunately, I've also met people in the business that don't believe in, what I consider some pretty basic cable science, like the a technician that repaired high end gear for a very hi-end hi-fi store... - he didn't believe high capacitance speakers cables could be responsible for driving a SS amp into oscillation - he believed the reason for the amp blowing was that the cables had shorted somehow. - now he is a little more educated. But as you pointed out - for the most part trying to convey the benefits of quality cables is very much PITW :-) The optimist in me likes to think the tide might be turning - just - v e r y.....s l o w l y Regards... ;-) |
Old news somewhat but I did notice an improvement with the Pangea power cord on both my DACs and on my ARC sp-16 pre-amp as well but to a lesser extent. I employed isolation as best possible prior. Adding shielding in my case was worthwhile as it turns out. And the Pangea's did not break the bank in the process. So I can easily recommend them to potentially add teh advertised benefits. Not to say they or any other product always will in each individual case, but they seem to do what is advertised at least in my cases which is all one can ask for. |
"08-12-15: Williewonka ZD542 - I think it makes more sense to some people that a more expensive component provides better performance rather than cables - after all, they employ things like quality circuit boards, quality electrical components, quality power supplies - these are bound to sound better - since they do cost more!" I was responding to Tpcarter's post only and not comparing how much of a difference cables make vs active components. I wrote this last week. " I've read some reviews online and it seems very difficult to purchase cables without auditioning, but this is my situation. I really want to bring out the best of the Olympica III's, the soundstage, midrange warmth, instrument/vocal placement, and overall seductiveness of the speakers." The only thing I can tell you for sure is that its not going to happen. What you're talking about are major component differences and qualities. Amp, preamp, speakers etc. Cables may effect those areas, but nowhere near the level that components do. When you read reviews, the descriptions they use make it sound like a pair of cables will have the same impact on your sound as a pair of speakers. The differences with cables are usually much less. The second, and more important thing that reviews lack are difficulty levels. If you're new to audio, its not easy to pick through a bunch of cables looking for differences. The differences are there, but there's no guarantee that you're going to find them. It takes a lot of listening and experience to do this. The last thing you want to do is rush in and spend a lot of money. So my recommendation would be to keep your 3k in your pocket, and spend about $100-200 on speaker cables. At least for now. Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread) |
I've found very good cable options for modest price. If these did not fit the bill, I would consider spending more, but I am not inclined to do that. I get hours and hours of listening pleasure every week out of a very modest investment in wires. So my advice is stick to the most common well reviewed (by user) options for modest cost to start. Consider changing and maybe paying somewhat more only if good reason. You should find something that works well for modest cost. last thing I would recommend is to spend a fortune out of teh gate on any wires thinking that will solve all your problems. It almost certainly will not and you may find you have change yet again later once the real issues at hand have been addressed. So basically, walk before you run, don't jump into teh deep end without testing the waters first, etc., all those good old cliche good practices that tend to almost always work best, including for getting the good sound you want. Lastly, be very cautious of anyone who tells you wires are the main key to good sound. They will likely contribute as a tweak to get you to a better place perhaps but alone can do little. |
"Value." Isn't that usually in the ear of the listener? Hype? Sure, reams and reams of hype, not only regarding cables, but for a lot of high-end audio, period. A friend of mine uses all Shunyata cables in his reference system. These wires alone cost more than a new economy car. He maintains the cables give him the "final 5 percent." I don't know if that means resolution, sound stage, etc, or musical enjoyment or if, in his mind, they are one in the same. All you folks who figure bigbux wires are "worth it" and "must-haves", go for it. Bless you. Even if I were wealthy, I can't imagine spending umpteen thousands of dollars on wires, no matter how highly touted they are. Earlier this year I auditioned Magnepan 1.7 speakers at a local dealer. The speaker cables he was using retailed around $50,000 for a 12' pair. The entire staff of the store was said to have been able to hear the "difference" between those cables and much more modestly priced cables that sold for about $2500/ pair, even when they weren't in the listening room. For me, $2500 cables are still pretty darn expensive. Past a certain point, I think most audiophile are certifiably crazy, including perhaps even myself, although my system is relatively modest and based on vintage tube electronics which I've had for decades. |
Mapman, well said. But some still believe Cables are Magic!! If they were I think you would see real audio companies such as ARC, Cary, VTL, Sanders, Soundsmith, Magnepan, Wilson, Vandersteen, etc really stress cables. They don't, and just tell you to use a quality cable. Check out what these guys use at Audio Shows if you want to know what really makes a difference. |
Macdad - the investment in developing cable architectures, choosing a wire and plugs, spec-ing you own cable designs is significant and a whole different science compared to circuits and quality parts. I asked a manufacturer the same question and his answer... - why should I bother - the customer will do what they want anyway - it's a waste of my energies. And he is right. At this point in time though, component manufacturers will give you as cheep a cable as they can get away with. It's called designing to a price point. Most components can perform way above what their provided cables will allow them to - I've personally demonstrated it time and again to others. And that's why there is a whole cable industry out there! As for seeing component companies develop cables - it has already started - NAIM has carried their own line for years and their new amps have caused them to bring out a whole new line of cables. Do you think other companies are going to sit back and let them rule the roost? I doubt it Only time will tell :-) Regards... |
Do you think other companies are going to sit back and let them rule the roost?I think that horse has already fled the barn and is into the next county. Sure, some companies offer their own cables (another is Ayre who offers cables constructed by Cardas) but folks are so into buying what they want that whether a manufacturer offers cables or not is virtually a moot point. Sure some manufacturers will offer their own cables as a convenience to customers, but more likely as another way to make money because, the cable industry has been a money-maker for many...for the very reason stated in the question that started this thread. |
Mitch2 - I used NAIM as an example because their customers seem to be extremely loyal and believe NAIM can do no wrong. I was on their Forum for a while and it seemed that anyone that even dared to mention another brand would be labelled a heretic - People actually seemed scared to admit they used another companies cables. With this hobby/obsession getting more complex - if more companies offered their own cables I think you could see more of the NAIM customer mentality. But thankfully not on this forum :-) Just thinking out loud. |
Its interesting that you bring up Naim. Personally, I like the concept of Naim, but I don't think the performance is equal to the cost. The Naim components I've owned, over the years, wasn't in the same league as comparable products from other brands. And I understand that may not be the case for all of their products, but that was my experience. Getting back to the cable discussion, I was thinking about trying a Naim CD player, so I went out to a dealer to demo one. I brought a CD player along with some cables that I normally use with it. To make a long story short, the AQ cables I brought with me made the Naim cables sound defective. They were just in a different league. Not to mention Naim cables are balanced and mine were SE. I wonder how they would like this story over on the Naim forum? lol. "08-21-15: Williewonka Macdad - the investment in developing cable architectures, choosing a wire and plugs, spec-ing you own cable designs is significant and a whole different science compared to circuits and quality parts." That's another good point. People always use the argument that cables are just wires and they're not as hard to make as a component. In many cases I would agree with that, but like anything else, there are some products that genuinely stand out. Here's a couple of examples I use that usually win people over. Cardas is one. If you search on the internet, you can find pics of Cardas cables that are stripped down so you can see how they are put together. To view it in sales literature is one thing, but when you see the actual cable, its just amazing. Nordost is another. Aside from the connectors, they have to make everything in house using special designs and machines. If you look closely at some of their work, the attention to detail is flawless. The way they apply the dielectric to the conductors looks like something NASA would make. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if they needed Al to help them. Anyway, I could give more examples, but with some cables, I feel the price is justified given what it takes to make them. And of course, you still need to know what you are doing when you buy them or you can waste a lot of money. |
I agree that some brands display very high construction quality but my question remains, "is the price justified relative to the level of sonic improvement provided by using uber-expensive cables?" I do hear sonic differences between cables, and I prefer the sound of some cables over others, but IME the "level of improvement" resulting from changes in cabling comes nowhere near the level of improvement possible by changing source components, amplification or speakers. When you factor in the high cost of many cables for what is really just wire with increasingly fancier ancillaries such as stainless steel collars, carbon fiber coverings, electic bias systems, network boxes, etc., one could argue the cable industry is a magic bean that has grown beyond all proportion based on the need that audiophiles have to keep up with the pack on the road to audio nirvana. |
We all need to make our own choices. If, for example, you don't see the value in buying an expensive pair of cables, then don't. It would be foolish to do otherwise. If someone else wants to spend more, that's OK too. And when people make expensive mistakes, I'm more than happy to buy like new cables at a huge discount. |
ZD542 and Mitch - I can only speak to what has transpired in my system, here goes... A few years back I purchased a NAIM 5i integrated amp - mainly because it was the one amp that impressed me under around $6k and since my budget was much less it was a good fit It's NAIM's entry level - but the reason I liked it soooo much was it's amazing clarity, natural tones and punch - and the reason for that is it's passive front end. Moving on - Shortly thereafter I was asked to review some cables - I've gone on about the KLE Innovations stuff on this forum countless times, so I'll cut to the chase. The Interconnects and Speaker cables have enhanced the performance of this little 50 watt amp so much that it now performs way above it's modest price point of $1700 I have compared my system against others costing between $30-50k and it's right there with them - and even bettering some of them :-) So - are cables worth it - since my system costs around $14k - $3k of that spent on cables - in my mind - damn right their worth it, i.e. if you can get the right cables - the trouble is which one is the right cable? The KLE Innovations cables have surprised me time and again by how much better each next model in the product lineup is. Even their entry level cables has outperformed many of the "established" brands for significantly less cost. Moving on... Fortunately, I have been able to fabricate many of my own cables, but the one thing that came out of that exercise was my realization that cable geometry (or architecture) and connector quality is paramount for the best performing cables. Exotic materials will suffer the same effects as copper if the architecture is the same old twisted pair - resulting in performance that is less than stellar. Having said all that ZD is correct - if you don't see the value in them then don't chase expensive cables. I would also add - if you don't have the inclination to learn about "cable science" - don't chase expensive cables either - many of them are not worth their price. But if you are inquisitive, investigate companies like Anti-cables, Nordost, Shunyata, KLE Innovations and others - especially those that have more interesting cable geometries and theories. Unfortunately - it is really difficult to acquire knowledge in this area - cable science is relatively new and most companies guard their secrets very well. And to protect copyright they often cite "strange theories" that sound absurd and can be construed as "marketing hype". Sometimes you just have to read between the lines. Personally - I have found the spiral geometry - where the neutral conductor is wound around the signal conductor - like Anti Cables Interconnects - to offer extremely good performance for cables of all types - even for power cables! The other thing is - to get the full benefit from cables - ALL other cables in your system have to be of similar quality. So - I'm on the "quality cables" bandwagon - but I research the heck out of any new cable and try before I buy. But I can see why so many others claim otherwise They just haven't tried the right cables - yet :-) |
"It's NAIM's entry level - but the reason I liked it soooo much was it's amazing clarity, natural tones and punch - and the reason for that is it's passive front end." Are you sure about that? I had the same amp and it certainly didn't sound like it had a passive line stage. To me, it sounded active. |
Zd - The 5 had Active, but the 5i(italics) had a Passive From the NAIM forum... NAIT 5 (active) preamp: • electronic switching • buffered resistor ladder volume control • through-hole construction • fully isolated from power amp ("split") • six DIN-5 inputs (including powered phono input and three tape in/outs) NAIT 5i(-2) (passive) preamp: • relay switching • passive potentiometer • surface-mount construction • +10dB makeup gain in power amp stage • four RCA phono inputs (two with DIN-5 inputs, one RCA tape out) with 1/8" priority mini-jack on NAIT5i-2 Regards... |
Zd - to quote you... "Surprising, because it didn't sound like one" what about the 5i made you feel it was active? I bought the 5i because of it's sound, and at that time I didn't even know it had a passive front end. I seem to like the sound of the limited Passive gear I've heard - a friend has a passive stand alone front end and I find both his system and my 5i sounds very detailed, open, dynamic and natural. I've never really thought about active vs passive (or the differences), so it would be enlightening to get your feedback regarding the sound of Active vs Passive. It will provide me with some indication of what to listen for in future. There is this thread over on amps and Preamps... http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1186277547 But your thoughts would be very welcome especially since you owned the 5i. Many Thanks. |
I bought the 5i because I was looking to put together a small system for a house I rented in CO for a year. I was curious to see how good an integrated in this price range would sound, given some of the positive comments I was hearing. If you don't have a lot of experience with passives, the main reason people use them is because its very difficult to get a good sounding active line stage for a low price. Many people feel that is you can't get a good active preamp, use a passive or a source with a volume control instead. Needless to say, I'm one of those people. I should also mention that I'm very sensitive to high frequencies, so some of the things that bothered me about the 5i, may not bother you. The best way that I can describe the overall sound of the Naim is that its not clean sounding. (There was nothing wrong with it. I was able put it next to another one in a store and the sound was identical.) When I first tried it with a pair of B&W LM-1's I had on my PC, the Naim sounded fine. But the B&W was a fairly dull sounding speaker with not too much detail. I needed a real pair of speakers, so I went out and bought a pair of Vandersteen 1's. When I put the Naim on those, it just fell apart. It's true that the Vandersteen is much more detailed and resolving, but its easy to drive and I don't think it was unfair to the Naim to pair it with that speaker. Naim said either the 1's or 2's would be OK. What let me to believe that the Naim had a passive line stage, was the high frequencies. They weren't refined at all, as well as an overall harshness. It just sounded like a typical, cheap active line stage. I also had 2 other amps I bought to try; a Creek 5350SE and a Musical Fidelity A3.5. The MF was a bit cleaner sounding overall, and had a lot more power, but the highs sounded, more or less, like the Naim. The line stage in the MF I know is definitely active. The real test was when I put it next to the Creek. The 5350 does have a passive LS. When I put that in the system, there was an immediate difference. The highs were completely relaxed, but had more detail. There was no question that I was listening to a much better quality active preamp, or a passive. The difference was not at all subtle. I should also point out, prior to my time with the Naim, I had quite a bit of experience using passives, so the Naim wasn't really a learning experience for me. I kind of know what to expect when I hear both designs. Not only that, don't read too much into what I'm saying here. You have the Naim and are getting excellent results. That's all that matters. It wasn't the right amp for me, but it definitely is the right amp for you. Don't let me, or anyone else, talk you out of enjoying your system. |
Zd - thanks for that feedback. I think it just goes to show that one amp in different environments can sound very different. However - I am the first to admit that the NAIM can be very finicky - they seem to work well with their own components/speakers, but when mated with components from other brands they can get more than a little "quirky". Early on I spent some time "adapting" my components to the NAIM. It's design requires that all sources be properly grounded at their mains lead - so my Cambridge Audio phono stage with its Wal-wart power supply and the Pioneer Elite DVD player with two pin plug presented some challenges to get the best sound out of them - grounding each chassis to a central point seemed to fix many of the problems. My more recent components, all having a grounded power supplies, seem to be a much better match. Add to that the many different cables I have tried, i.e. IC's SC's and PC's are crucial to get it to its current level of performance. So I am not at all surprised at what you experienced. But once you get it all figured out they can sound very sweet indeed. One other thing I know is an issue with NAIM is high capacitance speaker cables - they can cause the amp to throw a "wobbler". Having said that - I found these details on the NAIM web site NACA5 specifications are as follows: Capacitance: 16pF per metre Resistance: 9 milliohms per metre Inductance: 1uH per metre Minimum length: 3.5 metres per channel Maximum length: 20 metres per channel 25 meters can be tolerated lets take a range of cable length 3.5-20 meters NAIM amps amp can easily accommodate values in the range of... Capacitance: 56pF to 320pf per cable Resistance: 31.5 milliohms to 180 milliohms per cable Inductance: 3.5uH to 20 uH per cable In my current listening space my cables are in the 3.5 metre range - so this affords me fair degree of latitude in that... - I can actually use cables up to "91pF per metre" without and issue But the 16pf/meter, which is a bit of a "red herring", seems to be what most people latch on to. But I did find that Kimber Speaker cables did not perform very well - compared to Van den Hul Moving on.... From the link I posted it seems that different people have widely varying success with passive and active line stages I think your observation about good active line stages being expensive, may also apply to good passive line stages also, since sound quality seems to depend on how it is implemented e.g. transformers vs stepped volume controls etc... It also seems that a good passive line stage can be as expensive as a good active line stage. One thing for sure - I'm a little wiser now :-) Many thanks for taking the time to post - it was very enlightening |
OK. I read all 13 pages of this thread and there's no consensus as to whether or not cables are more hype than value. So, let me approach this subject from a slightly different perspective. If my current connections are all "stock" wire that came with my components, except for my speaker wire which is minimum length(about 8 feet) 12 gauge copper speaker wire from radio shack terminated with monoprice banana plugs that I installed myself, which connection do you pro-aftermarket cable proponents think is most critical to improved sound quality? Is it the optical cable which gets the digital signal from my music server to my DAC? Or is it the speaker wire? Or is it the wire that provides the power from the wall socket to my amplifier? I have spent many hours improving room acoustics and experimenting with speaker and sub placement and am inclined to believe that these simple steps will do more for (or to) sound quality than any change in wires. Which wire is most important? |
Danaroo, as with the original question posed in the thread I doubt that a consensus can be reached concerning your question. One reason for that, IMO, being that the answer will be dependent on the designs of the specific components that are involved, and in ways that don't have much if any predictability. The answer is also likely to often be dependent on the lengths of the various cables in the system. See my post here for discussion of some of those dependencies. My post here, earlier in this thread, may also be of interest. Without knowing anything about your system beyond what is stated in your post above, though, my guess is that what may make the biggest difference would likely be changing the optical cable you mentioned to a coaxial S/PDIF or AES/EBU cable (depending on what your DAC can accept). With the odds being in favor of that difference being for the better, although not necessarily. Regards, -- Al |
Mr D- Every cable/wire in your system is important. Between every component; your signal is transferred and there are a plethora of nuances that can be lost and have a profound effect on your presentation. Imagine viewing a very high-def 3D movie, through a number of glass panes. If one of those panes was dirty or otherwise distorted the image: would it matter which one? I fully agree with Almarg about ditching the optical cable. One caveat there: don't buy a digital cable shorter than 1.5M(digital reflections being the demon to avoid there). My last was a Kimber Orchid, which if I were to ever need one again, I'd try to find. An inexpensive starting point would be the more basic Kimber, Analysis Plus or Synergistic Research lines of interconnects & speaker cables, just to see if your system will resolve the differences. The Cable Company can provide good advice(based on your components) and sets, at a nominal rental fee, for your testing/tasting. Found here: (http://www.usedcable.com//default.aspx) |
Danoroo, I may be able to give you some insight with regards to cables. After reading your post, it looks like you are approaching the cable issue from a purely subjective standpoint. Like you say, there's no consensus, so if you want answers you'll need to take matters into your own hands. I think I can speak for the majority of people on this site when I say this how we had to do it. And we get different results due to the variety of factors involved. The only advice I can give you is don't spend too much money until you know what you're doing. And even then, be careful. |
Danoroo - some very wise advice from the posters above. Cables are fickle and perhaps the most difficult to attain success with. I have tried lots of cables with differing architectures and also had some amazing opportunities to get to my current cable base. The best approach is to try to find stores that have loaners you can borrow and tryout for a week or so. Or you can buy and return them - but there is the cost of returning to consider. Some cables take 2-3 days to "settle" so trying to discern improvements can take at least that long. The more affordable cables I like the look of are from Anticables, Stager Sound Systems and JW Audio. The cables I use are from KLE Innovations - but they get pricey. For me - the right cables add great value - but the search can be frustrating. Regards... |
......I am in the cable quandary here .....I currently have Purist Audio Design 20th Anniversary cables throughout my system along with the PAD Limited Edition Power Cords. My thinking is / was the more expensive the cable the better the sound which is true in many regards but when I was looking to upgrade my speakers cables I ended up buying the Cardas Clear Beyond as going up the Purist just got ridiculously expensive. Nice cables and during this time I was moving up the Esoteric line in equipment. The Cardas Clear sound real good ..to me in this system and the my speakers also changed from Avalon's to the Sonus Faber Olympica III's ......but in my mind how can the Cardas sound better when they are about 40% less than what I paid for the Purist.....? So I an looking at changing one interconnect out one at a time and see what happens ....but the Cardas interact better than the PAD in my system for less money .....don't know |
09-11-15: GarebearFor some thoughts on why a high degree of correlation between cable price and cable performance should not be expected, see the posts by me and others in this thread. Also, see the two links I provided in my post above dated 9-8-15, which are here and here. Also, see the current thread " Looking for really fine cables at really low price", in which several highly experienced audiophiles have reported that they prefer the sound of cables made from Belden 8402 and vintage Western Electric wire, those cables costing not a great deal more than Radio Shack cables, to cables costing multi-thousands of dollars. Regards, -- Al |
