Hi Everyone!
I've tested several brands of wires and, in my experience, many of them work like an equalizer. I think that's why it's very difficult to give a perfect advice to anyone about a cable cause you have to know perfectly every component of the entire system. Neutral doesn't mean anything cause it'll depend on what you consider neutral. There is no absolute.
For examble, Bo1972 consider Naim as flat and 2D. Based on what exactly? On which speakers? with what kind of player? cables?
I think it's cool to be so confident to think our advices are the ONES, but Hifi is more complex cause it comes with the background of the listener, his feelings, his history and his own way of thinking. It's a cerebral hobby!
To compare it with cars is absurd cause cars is mechanic, no brainer in that hobby!!!
When you want to "feel" in Hifi, that's where belong high-end purpose! And there are just a few brands that give you the emotion, the evidence where you stop thinking and start feeling. I seek those pieces of paradise and if i can find it for less, i'm all ears!!!
So please start writing about your experiences and stop thinking... I like forums to glad informations about experiences, not looking for opinions as steril as the writer... |
@Bo1972 : i'm looking forward to see those videos. It's always interesting to see other approach, mostly when it's a cheaper way of approaching audio High-end!
You should offer a kind of training to spread your knowledge to more people! May be i should buy a plane ticket to you...easier from France! |
optimization is the heart of High-end audio! In that matter, cables are a major component of the system.
I listened to a system last week. The guy use a REGA Apollon and BRIO R amp on a pair of Usher Audio MINI-ONE. He wires the whole thing with a VDH interconnect, and self-made PCs. For the trial, we used my Analysis plus big silver.
After the first song, i notice a problem : the dynamic flattened the sound stage and a lack of high and low frequencies narrowed the overall presentation.
I asked the guy to switch the VDH for a pair of Analysis plus's Copper oval in. After the change, the depth was back with a greater sense of 3D, highs and bass were also more present with more subtilities. The gap was huge between the 2 cables. And the Analysis is not expensive so not hype at all. The Analysis plus's solo crystal oval is probably one of the most valuable wire on the market for his performance/price ratio. If the system is neutral, the Solo will make it sing with naturalness and a great sense of pace. If the system is unbalanced, it will sound even more unbalanced! |
During the Denver audio fest of 2010, I auditionned Nordost new power filtration system. They were demonstrate how it worked on a system. I'd preferred the system without their device!!! It was more natural without...
I don't have many experiences with nordost but this one was quite funny! And the power system was insanely expensive by the way!!! Hype for sure... |
It's one of the most common leitmotiv in High-end business : if you can't ear it, you're the problem!
It's so stupid to say that! Just say to the guy that he's lucky cause he's gonna save a lot of money in the process!
On my system, some friends are hypnotized by the sound, some are not able to ear the improvement and many of them tell me i'm crazy to spend so much money on that! It doesn't mean they're stupid...
Hifi is a mind game... |
i think high priced cables are too expensives but the problem is that brands value the result, not the real cost of their design.
In Hifi, you have really nice designed circuitry in cheap electronics. For example, an electronic engineer i know is still really impressed by REGA circuitry. When he uses his measurement instruments on it, it's near perfect! Anyway, REGA is a fair brand but not really excellent.
Sometimes some brand value the innovation like Devialet, not the result (Devialet is good but not a fair deal at all!!!).
My point is that you can create a good design without higher the price but sometimes, when you get a result no one else can equal, you can be tempted to rise the prices for it!
High End business is definitely not a fair business and it's important to be well guided through this maze... |
@bo1972 : We can't be more agree on that! There is a lot of scammers in Hifi business... And a lot of stupid customers too! People are more trustfull on marketing products than their own ears! Snob people want the better known and expensive system to show their money! There is a lot of futur business for those scammers... |
I can only agree with the importance of 3D image in Stereo system. The problem is the "subtleties" many amplifier designers choose to offer this result.
Some amplifiers seems more forward because of a bad dynamic control.
Some others offer deep soundstage but poor dynamic.
Naim amps, for example, are quite flat because of their particular dynamic but it's also very "foot taping" kind of amps with an engaging sound. People doesn't care about depth or even notice it because they focus on the fun they get with Naim.
Brand like NVA or Naim are cheaper and give a lot of fun for a small amount of money. All is compromise in Hifi.
I don't know where you can find 3D amp for a small amount of money? I admire your dedication to your customer Bo1972, and if you're able to give the 3D emotional result for the same amount of money, i'll be very interested in the brands you promote?
For me (and i think for many others readers here), the perfect amp combine Micro and macro dynamics, depth and wide soundstage, 3D when you can feel each instruments on the scene, acurate timbre and most of all : EMOTION. I find it with my Music culture combo...for 25000€ (32000$)!
I didn't find many electronics nor cables that fit my requirements of perfection. 3D image, i only here it on High-end (and expensive) products because for me, 3D means the "you are there" kind of feeling, the impression you can turn around the musicians. It's a lot more than depth, a complete new universe. If you can't have the money for that, stay on a fun NVA amp cause it gives this vividness that comes with real music. There is only a few brands capable to give that on the market. There is flaws but, man, so fun and so immediacy!
The last brand that i discovered and surprised me was TSAKIRIDIS Devices. It's a greek company with tube devices. The sound is really engaging and on the neutral side of warm for tube amps. It's really good but not perfect...and cheap.
Perfection doesn't exist in Hifi, at the end, it's just you and the music you love...only your own satisfaction. |
I think it's really combo dependant cause, for my experience, i listened to a pair of mezzo utopia with Musical fidelity pre and power amp (can't remember the ref but top of the line anyway) with no result at all! The room was also very difficult to manage and we had to move the speakers several times inside the room to get a correct stereo image. Anyway the amps were pretty "MP3" kind of sound, not musical at all.
And you can't drive a B&W 802 with Naim! Not enought current, just watts for easy speakers. The 802 were probably the baddest speaker ever for small electronics with no juice. And even when you find big power amps, the sound still appear narrow.
One of my friend change is 802 for a pair of Usher audio BE-718. Even his child told hime that with the Ushers, it seemed that the players were in the room playing. The guy use McIntosh SS power amp and McIntosh tube pre and CD player.
It seems the new 800 serie is now driveable...
I'm quite surprise with your Onkyo reference? Depth is one thing but music is another matter! Onkyo is so colorfull and dull that even with more depth, i'm still choosing a Naim! (colored as well but fun)
Using an Audissey with Naim rather than Onkyo should give a better result. Using that kind of room correcting device during a show will certainly give a major asset to the system.
During the same audition with the MF and the Utopia, we used a Behringer room correcting device. It improved the overall sound but lost on the way all the music. It was synthetic like plastic!
It's important not to forget that we're listening to music, not just frequencies and spatial positionning.
Like i said, i'd rather choose a engaging sound, livelike and musical more than a perfect dimensional system with no life.
Anyway i appreciate your passion and your dedication to your customer Bo1972. |
I don't think women have better ears. I think they are more connected with their emotions. For example, my wife aren't interested in Hifi but on my new system (based on Usher audio speakers and Music culture electronics), she cried on a song she already knew and listened on my previous system. The emotion was so palpable that she felt the sadness of the song.
Women didn't think like men over hifi system. Men are "brainiac" and more connected on details, bandwidth, sound staging... Emotion comes after and not on every guys...
Another story : One guy comes over to my place with his electronics (melody tube amps). He wanted to test Usher speakers. First he came alone. On a second occasion, he came with his wife to be sure of the improvement. His wife laughed at him after the first musical notes cause my system was WAY better than his...She mentioned the emotion and overall balance sound. He bought Usher audio MINI-2 after that... |
@calloway : please if you want to be credible to me, you should use another example than cars! Cars are mechanics! Porsche use better engineering than Kia and it's not meant for the same purpose and use. Of course there is fame in car's business too (Ferrari is not reliable like Porsche for example) but it's mainly mechanic.
Watches are mechanic too. There is fame too but you can't deny the engineering behind some brands.
Hifi is quite different. There is engineering but it's mainly a marketing and fame business!
Usher audio for example is one of the best brand in the world. When you compare a CP-8571 to a Wilson Sasha 3, you buy the Usher!
Another brand like XTZ for example uses the same drivers you can find on very high end brands for a fraction of the price! How can you explain the difference of price then?
Of course you can argue on the quality of the component and the crossover craft. Usher work with Dc. D'apollito, probably one of the best engineer in Hifi business. And the prices are still lower?!
When you own a Sasha, a B&W 800 or any other high-end speaker, you buy the marketing, the advertising on magazines, the shows... and a lot of FAME! One of my relatives bought a 805Di for the look and fame. When he tried it at home, it was crap! After comparing it with a BE-718, he cried over his bank account!
So anyone can think he own a system only for the performance but, deep inside, there is pride... |
