Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

hi Jean,
I am happy to hear you like the results of my plate. The problem of clearance between platter and plate is easily solved by putting a washer between circlip and thrustplate support. Or you can simply add a second thrustplate.

This week I have posted the first pictures of the newest plate version the PTP3 on LencoLovers. The main difference is that speed change is now possible without taking the platter off. http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3341

Peter

Gee willikers, Jean, I forgot what you asked me after reading all that! Maybe I will move to Canada to be able to buy some of that cool used stereo gear!

I remember those technics speakers.

Can anyone remember how everybody thought the Japanese were crazy with all those bright, trebly sounding speakers? What kind of crap are they trying to foist off on us - we used to wonder? What we didnt know was that many of those 70's - 80's Japanese speakers were voiced for tubes - when most of us had the latest Kenwood or Sansui SS seperates.

As to the Terminator it has been down for a while - I installed a new rack and set up a marble/acrylic sandwich on my TT rack, like Jean. I just got it situated again yesterday. After finally quieting the pump - I can say, just as Vic claims, there is no hiss or air noise, even with your mug right in front of the table while it is running.

Also, remember that the Terminator's claim to fame is the lightened, shortened arm assembly. Vic represents it as a happy accident but it may be that this design feature - somewhat like the Lenco itself, brilliant engineering; industrially executed for cost’s sake – makes the Terminator an arm that may actually be in the running for sounding the best, or at least as good as the best, in sonic certain parameters. Given, of course that almost noone claims that any one arm is the best at everything.

I will be posting more on the Terminator when I get it perfectly setup again. (I didnt lock it down when I moved the table.) Also, I have yet to try anything but a Ortofon M15e super on it.

Also, as if I wasnt obnoxious enough, I am building an LCR RIAA preamp! :)

Mike

Hi Peter: you're becoming like Microsoft :-)!! No sooner one thing bought than it's already been superseded and it's time to upgrade!! But sonically they are identical, so what the hey, I'll STILL be rebuilding my own MKI top-plates (one blank for the Maplenoll tonearm, the other a two-tonearm version), having bought two HUGE ones. I'll play with washers, I still remember when a difference of 1 mm on the ball bearing destroyed the Lenco sound way back when when I lost the little thing (in the early days four years ago before we discovered new sources of ball bearings and all sorts of stuff), so some auditioning ahead to make sure sound quality is not affected. I'm sure the bushings in the main bearings can be pushed around to compensate.

Hi Mike, great to hear there's no audible hiss, the one failing of the also ultra-light MG-1 tonearm, which is made of carbon-fibre and plastic. There'll have to be a Shootout, and I'll throw in the primitive blunderbuss ultra-high-mass Maplenoll tonearm to boot, which made the Maplenoll 'table incredibly dynamic and with THUNDEROUS bass (before my discovery of the idler-wheel superiority in this respect). It'll be interesting to find out what is doing what.

And yep, I can't believe just how amazing those Technics speakers really are, with incredible clarity and detail and speed. Brightness is from the accompanying electronics and system, the SB-4s sounding lush when the C-J PV-7 is in the circuit, and now with the system reconfigured, no brightness whatsoever from the Lenco/JMW 105i/Decca Super Gold/C-J PV-8/Mitsubishi DA-A10DC system. Now the C-J PV-8 is also sounding better and better, and I'm in Music Heaven daily with either pre (and having fun switching back and forth according to taste and mood), in this new abode which is more conducive to extended auditioning and experiments. While the PV-8 doesn't have the incredible midrange of the PV-7 (but not far behind), it is far better at the frequency extremes, and in terms of gain: it is MONSTER of phono gain, which means LO MCs can be run directly into it, for those looking for a reasonably-cheap but superb and adaptable phono stage. The PV-8 is also much more flexible than most PV line C-J preamps, having a mono, stereo reverse, and so on switch. I'll try my Denon direct into it for some more fun and report on this soon. Both the PV-7 and PV-8 blow the crap out of any sub-$1K separate phono pre I've ever heard. The fellow who sold it to me wants to hear a Lenco through it: he won't believe what this preamp can REALLY do in terms of detail, air, dynamics, bass and clarity, as he has only heard it so far with digital sources. He's also curious about the Idler Thing :-).

Ah the Ortofon M15E Super, I can't wait to hook it up too, was again and again my fave cartridge of all time, and see how the AKG P8ES measures up, they being similar-sounding. The new address means lots more experimenting and auditioning to come, it's got an attached workshop to double my fun, AND a better soundroom! Many more experiments to come all, hope you're all having as much fun as I am!! Good luck in building your new phono pre Mike!!

And speaking of phono pres all, I have been going crazy in my slowly-developing new soundroom, as in addition to the CJ PV-7 (incredible HUGE midrange) and PV-8 (hugely dynamic, incredible bass and clarity) I also scored an EAR 834P and decided to have a big shootout to see which I will keep. This via the Leak Stereo 20/Technics SB-4s or the Mitsubishi/Technics SB-4s. The speed and agility of the little 12-watt Leak continues to astound, as once again it comes out sounding like the big 100-watt SS amp (powerful and DEEP bass, hyper-speed, mighty dynamics to suit the Mighty Lenco) while the big SS amps come out sounding gentle in comparison. Wait until I get the big Klipsch Cornwalls into the living room, the neighbours are going to LOVE me ;-). The Klipsch, in addition to being hyper-sensitive, also having 15" woofers...and being THE most actually neutral (as opposed to a "dry" dessicated sound masquerading as neutrality) speaker I have ever heard. AND, contrary to popular belief, the Cornwalls sound great with SS too (being actually neutral and all ;-)). BUT, the Technics SB-4s have incredible clarity and speed (AND real neutrality), and incredibly musicality, so that the innocent next-door neighbour, a musician utterly innocent of audiophile concerns, loves just coming over with beer (being a musician) and saying "So, what'll you play now John?" As all truly experienced audiophools know, its the innocents who are the true judge of the musical success of a system, audiophiles in general being far too prejudiced and often unaware of the concept of "musicality" as opposed to sound.

Now I post this for those looking for high-end sound on a budget, in the great Lenco tradition :-)!!Anyway, I used, of course, the giant Lenco as platform, and tried the MAS 282/AKG P8ES (superb, the MAS having been designed by Mr. Ito of Ittok fame, the MAS having impressed me so much I now have an Ittok, though it was fashionable in the early days of the Rega RB-300 to crap on the Ittok); the JMW 10.5/Decca (always incredible, and about as fast as it is possible to be, especially on a big idler-wheel drive) and the JMW/Clearaudio Concerto.

Now, the Concerto is not cheap (but not especially expensive these days in terms of high-end cartridges), but it has a musical magic, repeatable across systems, tonearms, electronics and speakers (the first in my experience consistently so, others only reaching this level of musical magic when the stars are in the right alignment) which makes it, in the context of incredible detail retrieval and so forth, the best cartridge I've ever heard. Because I place musical magic/shivers/hairs rising up on your arms above every other audio experience. Which is also why I champion the Lenco and other big idlers above all other 'tables. But, like the Lenco, the Concerto is not ONLY about magic and musical power (gestalt, PRaT, SLAM, etc.), it is also, being a Clearaudio, excellent at detail, speed, transients, and dynamic shadings. Though the Decca STILL has it for transients and speed, and possibly bass, it cannot match either the AKG P8ES (a close second to the Clearaudio in terms of magic, and perhaps better at retrieving air and resonances, like the Grado, which makes me suspect moving irons are quite simply superior to MC in this respect, just as idlers are quite simply superior to everything else :-)!!) or the Concerto (and perhaps the Denon DL-103 and a few other MMs including Grados) for this indefinable magic. You can see I've been busy ;-).

Anyway, the EAR, in almost every review compared against older CJ preamps, does indeed sound great. I used it as a complete phono preamp (mine has the volume pot), using it directly into my amps. The EAR is completely stock, down to the no-name tubes. It does indeed blow away all stand-alone phono preamps I've tried (nothing too exotic mind), sounding smooth, detailed, lively and with great air and imaging. Something about it is methodical. At first it sounds kind of boring, but as time goes on, this grows on you, as it indeed retrieves quite a lot of information, including dynamics, quite a bit of detail, and imaging information. You get the feeling it is just getting on with the job at hand, and in a civilized manner, at a rather high level (if you recognize yourselves in this description, then this is the phono preamp for you). I find it closer to the CJ PV-7 than to the PV-8, as the EAR's bass simply does not compare with the bass from the PV-8, which is Decca-tight, fast and resolved. The PV-7, on the other hand, has a gentle pillowy bass and an equally pillowy high frequency range. The PV-7, though, has it for the midrange, being better than either the EAR or the PV-8 at resolving information here, and being quite simply HUGE and lush with larger and more spaced images. Perhaps too much so, but rivetting nevertheless. Now the PV-7 IS that classic tube preamp, and with a healthy dose of that hypnotizing musical magic common, I now see, to the vintage CJ preamps, and the late, lamented ARC SP-8. I'm not sure about the PV-7's highs as compared with the EAR's. Is one better than the other? I suspect the EAR is more matter-of-fact neutral here, but I'm not sure, as though the PV-7 sounds rolled off (like the EAR) there actually is quite a lot of delicate high-frequency detail.

The PV-8 is quite simply killer. It is liquid, more detailed than the EAR everywhere, much more dynamic and lively, with higher highs and lower lows. It is exciting, and makes the hairs go up on my arms, as does the PV-7 (which, however, doesn't have the PV-8 dynamics). But, I have to say that so far, the EAR hasn't done it for me, though it's obvious I like excitement and am not interested so much in "the Truth" (which I think is a frumious bandersnatch). Those who want the truth will find it in the EAR. I didn't tube-roll with the EAR, but then again I didn't with either the PV-7 or the PV-8. I might end up experimenting with all three, as in many ways it's a close-run race. The PV-8 has that thunderous excitement, allied to liquidity and extended frequency extremes. The PV-7 has that HUGE midrange, and can be improved with little effort (this is in the works for mine) and, like the PV-8, can raise the hairs on your arms (with both the AKG and the Concerto). I'm hunting around for some tubes to roll into the EAR for now.

I hope those looking for some more vintage fun will benefit from these experiments. More experiments coming up for the long-delayed Rek-o-Kut now my new workshop is rolling, as well as the Ittok and other tonearms and cartridges and turntables (the reappearance of the superb Sony 2250 for one). Have fun all, and Vive la Idler Wheel!!

John, you will never know what the EAR is capable of without modifying it. The PV7 and 8 are what they are - short of tube rolling - but the EAR is capable of far more than what is in the little black box. I meant to sell mine several times but always forgot. Then, after reading some of Romy the Cat's guff one day (his "end of life" - Russian for "best and final" - phono pre is based on the 839P), I decided to try Thorsten's mods - including the air variable caps (actually radio tuning vanes - in this case, the dielectric is air as opposed to teflon or poly). The air caps are usable in this unit because the RIAA cap values are so small.

The best way to describe the outcome is that everything you like about the EAR - DOUBLE IT! Better output caps and an improved power supply with better diodes and bigger caps are the main modifications. You can easily do the mods without the air caps, BTW - they were so over the top I couldn't resist. If this thing was Stereophile Class B before - it is easily Class A now and I still haven't ever gotten around to putting an MC through it.

Thorsten's mods can be found in one post on the Audio Asylum and recently, Romy's own forum shows pics of how he implemented the air caps and his final circuit modifications.

Mike

Hi Mike, don't want to keep you on tenterhooks, I'll be doing some tube-rolling with the EAR and see what happens, but haven't had time yet. But, I have to say, it's a matter of the heart: I LOVE the CJ preamps (both of them, though in some ways they are polar opposites, they both share that ability to make the hairs stand up to attention!), while the EAR is, in comparison, more of an intellectual exercise. But I've got vintage tubes on stand-by to juice up the EAR :-). I'll post more when I get around to it (in the middle of moving, packing and unpacking, arranging and rearanging).

I can dig it - I loved the 500C at first - but then after a while, missed the seeming perfection of single ended. In reality though, if you love listening to something, how can it be wrong?

Nevertheless, many people describe the stock EAR as being tooby and euphonic. I seem to remember the stock EI tibes playing it pretty straight compared to Telefunkens and other NOS tubes. Am I right in assuming that both of the CJ's have old tubes in them and the EAR has the stockers? Could account greatly for the difference. I find that all new production 12AX7's sound pretty lowsy and changing them out for NOS makes a huge amount of difference in the natural sound of hifi or instrument amps.

The modifications described above, take the EAR to a level far above a simple tube change - think natural timbres and all the other audiophile cliches while retaining the tube warmth and utter listenability of the stock unit.

Mike

Hi Mike. I substituted some older 12AX7s (nothing exotic though) for the no-name ones that come with it and indeed did get an improvement. The bass deepened and the detail improved to the point where the EAR was now much closer to the CJ PV-7 which was in the circuit before. But - and there's always a but isn't there? - the magic which makes both vintage CJ preamps SO compelling was still absent, relative to the CJs of course. Don't get me wrong: the EAR IS euphonic, smooth, tube-like in all the best ways but more neutral than the Golden Age tube equipment of yore. The owner of such a unit could sit for hours without listener fatigue. But, all these qualities which give it a leg up on the current competition are heard by most without the context of certain older CJ preamps (PV-5, PV-6, PV-7 PV-8, PV-10) AND ARC preamps (the great star of magic being the rightly famed ARC SP-8, but also the SP-6 and of course SP-10). The EAR is euphonic, yes, but it isn't "magical" as these older preamps are. And the PV-7 also has no-name tubes; while the PV-8 has GE tubes for the line stage but Sovteks in the phono stage (which might explain the brightness, time for more tube-rolling tomorrow!!).

Both CJ preamps have a sense of propulsiveness, the music enhuberant and forceful, lacking in the EAR, and this apart from simple dynamics, which are also superior to the EAR. Allied to this is a sense of cohesiveness, of the music working together in incredible harmony, perfect timing, that together with the propulsiveness makes both CJ preamps very difficult to turn away from, even when there is something else to do. The EAR, on the other hand, lacks this as well, like an artist who is technically trained, but with no feeling. In reading certain high-end rags these days, one would think that these qualities -cohesiveness, propulsiveness, "continuousness" - are just now making their appearance in cost-no-object designs. But methinks certain writer/reviewers need to immerse themselves in some of these superb older units in order to establish context, aural history.

Today an acquaintance dropped by to pick up a spare laser assembly for a Pioneer CD player I sold off (I got myself a tubed Luxman CD player....GASP! I DO have a CD collection!!) and saw my Ultra Giant Lenco sitting high on a shelf, hooked up to the PV-7. I offer to demonstrate it, he agrees, and I played the new Wynton Marsalis/Willie Nelson collaboration on Blue Note (superb music AND recording/pressing!). He's a pure CD guy, but finds himself rooted to the spot, moving only to place himself in the exact centre of the soundfield. He stood there, not even sitting, immobile, through the entire side of the LP, and had it not been for the phone call from his wife (nagging ;-)), he would have made me play the entire four-side disc while simply frozen to the spot. I'm fairly certain that had the EAR been hooked up, he would have been impressed, but would have left after the first song. But maybe he would have loved it as much as the PV-7. But it's telling he reacted exactly the same way I did to the PV-7, as did also the musician next door who loves to come and sit for hours listening to my system. I could hear and identify the magic, he simply found himself mesmerized. He said one word: "Unbelievable".

Now we get into the same problem which faced us and STILL faces us with respect to idler-wheel drives and Lenco: the issue of exactly what is subjective/illusory and what is objective/real, and what is the "truth". Recall the Great Lenco vs SME 30 Debate. I believe in my body's reactions to the music, that it has some objective foundation, and also believe that this is fairly representative of the human race (who react to the same things I do, as did CD guy). I believe digital conversion of music will ALWAYS be audible to the human ear, which is far more sensitive than the scientists and engineers claim/believe, so that no matter how high the resolution they achieve, it will always leave the listener relatively unmoved (which is different from unimpressed, as in impressed by sound). Ah, the Great Sound vs Music debate. And, to throw this in, the human ear is far more sensitive to certain forms of speed imperfections (i.e. belt-drives, DDs) than to others. While idler speed stability may not be perfect (but is damned close, ESPECIALLY the Lenco), the human ear finds its imperfections - which are not related to groove modulations - far less intrusive (and the music thus much more enjoyable) than with systems which do react to groove modulations, or are referenced to intrusive sampling frequencies (i.e. quartz-locking), which are similar to digital chop-chop (but which can be GREATLY mitigated by Direct Coupling to a high tonally neutral mass). The fact that Lencos and other idlers have become SUCH a phenomenon since I started the first thread shows that other people DO hear what I hear, and ARE sensitive to/recognize what I feel, including you, Mike ;-), which shows there IS something objective beneath all this "frisson", "magic", "entrancement", musicality (as in poetic music, "music to soother the savage breast", "music to my ears"), in short, emotional/physical reaction. Anyway, the older CJ stuff (and certain ARC pres) does something the EAR doesn't, however similar in some ways the raw information is. In addition, I just tested all the tubes in my PV-7 and they are all sub-par and in need of replacement!!

So, when I first heard a crappy idler-wheel drive (a humble Garrard SP-25 record changer) I was gobsmacked, the musical POWER and dynamic explosiveness hit me between the eyes, and this energized me to track this particular prey for years, and spurred me finally to trying to start an Idler Wheel Revolution (first attempt a flop, second bull's-eye). THIS was magic, THIS was musical power. And reading the various reviews of Garrards in the audio press, I wasn't the only one to hear this quality (and overall stunning audiophile capabilities of the idler-wheel system). I poured money and time into it. The CJ strikes me similarly, and the buyer of one of my Lencos, a high-end tube amp manufacturer (the same fellow who did my Leak Stereo 20), has offered to turbocharge my CJs at a very good price (with serious premium parts, and basic repairs/adjustments and likely improvements). I'm going to take him up on it, as the caps anyway are likely getting tired. Personally, I'm not moved by the EAR, so I'll sell it on rather than pour time and energy into it, but keep an ear out for someone else's rebuilt/turbocharged unit, and then give it another go. For those wondering if I've abandoned vintage Sony, not at all!! In fact, CD guy also picked up my Sony 2000F preamp and is going to restore it to full functionality for me (it was quite noisy)!! These old Sony units also have that sense of cohesiveness and propulsiveness, though perhaps not to the same degree as the two CJs.

Anyway, the CJ PV-7 can be had for $400-$500 or so, and the PV-8 for about $600-$700. The PV-8 has so much gain it can handle low-output MCs too. Combined the Mighty Lenco (or other Mighty Idler) to a vintage CJ, and prepare to find yourselves melted like overheated wax and conquered.

When I moved out to the country, I had put my computer in mothballs, and my photos along with it. So, I post for the first time a photo of the Ultra Lenco I had planned and delivered to Cyprus for the non-review. And for contrast, a photo of one I had built at the same time: fun with colours!! My new workshop is nearly finished, I'm motivated, time to start having some fun with various 'tables and designs!! Keep us posted as to your new phono pre Mike, beautiful work on your latest plinth! Have fun all!!

Oh, and PS Mike: that Trans-Fi Terminator tonearm looks utterly cool, just saw one surfing (Enjoy the Music Awards), and it got my drool glands going, gonna have to get me one...;-)...

And again Mike, I've read that 5751s do wonders for the EAR, and that a shielded AC cable makes an difference too. Have you tried these simple things? Wouldn't you know it, my PV-8 has a pair of GE 5751's, and I'll resort to the Sovtek 12AX7 to brighten things up at the front ;-). I'll try things that require no actual modification of the circuitry, as I will want to sell it on at some point, and report on this: can't wait!! So, more experimentation ahead, since Tim de P. apparently borrowed the circuit from Marantz, then there's gotta be hope for some magic!! I'll play with cables, and my FR transformer too and see if I can't coax some magic out of it without redoing the guts. My Labour Day Weekend consists of setting up my new abode and workshop, the better to play with audio, though I tell my lady friend I'm doing it for her ;-).

On the agenda soon: MAS/AKG P8ES and Ittok/Clearaudio Concerto, let's see what Mr. Ito can do. Mr. Ito was famed for his bearings (and rightly so), and the MAS 282 is a killer low-mass tonearm (doesn't look like much, but it easily outperforms the Regas with one arm tied behind its back, and I LIKE the Regas!). The Ittok was named after him as well, and handling one - which I mocked in ignorance for years (sorry Mr. Ito) - is a joy and a pleasure: very substantial, with the usual incredible bearings. I will also have an Ultra-Giant Garrard 301 (Mass is Class), which is in my workshop right now, with bearing thrust-plate upgrade, and top-of-the-line Loricraft power supply to play with, I'll report on the results of this no-holds-barred approach, along with the cheap'n cheerful cherry tonearm being sold right here on Audiogon. Have fun all!

OK, the EAR 834P DOES do magic! I switched the V3 tube to a GE 5751, and the other two to Sovtek 12AX7s, and Bingo-Presto! tons of PRaT, gestalt, propulsion and excitement, all the good stuff an idler-wheel drive can dish out, putting the EAR in the same league as the good vintage CJ and other glorious tubed preamps of yore in this sense. I wouldn't have credited a tube change to affect the character of a piece so deeply (information, air, imaging, detail, yes), so a whole new area for me to obsess/get neurotic about, a whole new can 'o worms. Learn something new every day. So, count me among EAR 834P fans, though with the new price it is no longer the screaming deal it was. But, now I'm casting an experimental eye on the coupling caps, and also wondering how the Sovteks would do in my CJ PV-7's phono stage. Good news that a fix for the EAR is a cheap new tube, the Sovteks' brightness and clarity providing the counterbalance to the EAR's gentleness, seeming darkness and seeming (with stock tubes) lack of focus and musical energy (relative to superb vintage pieces like the CJs); and the 5751 providing that needed sense of focus (detail and bass tightness and control increased immensely). Though I'm not certain exactly which tubes did what, extrapolating from readings of reviews and forums. Replacing the stock tubes with mellow-sounding vintage tubes was like pouring honey on syrup to cut down the sweetness: it barely touched the overall sound quality/character, leading me to believe the sound could not be meaningfully changed. Now I'll shut up until I have some real new news to relate, the EAR is a Contender, and Sovteks have their uses!! Thanks for egging me on Mike. Have a good Labour Day weekend all, the rest of the weekend is tube-rolling, beer and enjoying a late summer bloom!!

Heh, heh, heh...

I have tried all sorts of tubes in the EAR. If I tried a 5751, I dont remember - but I settled on a compliment of tubes sorted from my big box if nos 12A-- types. I think I saw a 5751 on my desk the other day - I'll pop it in and see what it does.

BTW - I always wanted to try a PV7, it has the reputation of making everything sound good. Of course, in our perverse audiofool ways, this has to be wrong because we know that all records do NOT sound good, so away with euphonic components that FORCE us to enjoy the music! :)

IN any case, I have come to two conclusions about vintage gear: 1) Those old tube era engineers really knew what they were doing and did many seemingly simple things, circuit wise, that have profound sonic results and 2) The carbon comp resistors used in almost all pre-70's electronics (the little brown ones) have a humanizing sound that is integral to the pleasing sound of vintage gear. Call it a pleasant distortion if you like. They are not used much in highend gear these days because of their self noise and tendency to drift.

Mike

COme on Jean, I've got a bar of soap bigger than that "ultra-Lenco" - no, wait... :)

Just kidding, that thing looks cool - very sixties pastel color. What is that "washing machine green"? We had sinks all over the house that color when I was a kid. There is something about the painted plinth and the white Lenco that is very sucessful style-wise - I like the blue one too.

AS far as coupling caps, I took a flyer on a pair of Mundorf silver in oil for the EAR. They, like your balancing of the tube types, are an excellent compliment to the EAR. Bypassing the volume pot gave another easy step up in quality - however, you many remember the trouble it gave me with MM's - there was so much gain that it caused distortion into my preamp. I ended up bypassing the pot with a suitable voltage divider.

Mike

Hi Mike, "voltage divider" huh? We're already into problems ;-). Sorry, I pour most of my energies into understanding and playing with turntables, tonearms, cartridges and phono stages, though I have assembled some tube amp kits and done my share of simple mods (replacing caps and so on), and of course am endlessly playing with interesting speakers and amps....of, forget it, I'm into everything (but minimal attention spared for digital media).

Ah, the Conrad Johnson PV-7, THERE's the rub!! There's a BIG problem with semantics in audio discussions, due to the fact than many simply have not heard a truly musical, "magical" component (just as most haven't heard a truly capable CD player or a true high-end record player), and so confuse "accuracy"/information-retrieval with the concept of musicality. I would say most audiophiles fall into this category, and so are driven to endlessly seek that which they avoid so assiduously, in a never-ending cycle of buying and selling and upgrading: "coloured" components like the CJ PV-7. "Magic" in the sense of utterly compelling and seductive, like watching Anne Margret in her prime doing a slow strip-tease just for you!! Raise the hairs on your arms, give-you-the-shivers, keep you entranced rooted-to-the-spot magic!!

Anyway, the PV-7 goes WAY beyond and much deeper than being simply "euphonious" or "listenable" or "coloured", it makes everything sound good not because it is coloured (its bass - so far - is weaker than many other preamps, and its high somewhat rolled-off) but because it is doing something very well that very few components can do (excepting certain components like the ARC SP-8 and, the Spendor BC-1s, and of course, the Lenco ;-)). Meaning that its colourations are NOT connected to its magic, which is something that was done extremely right in the circuit. I've argued this point for years in various threads on this forum: pieces like the CJ PV-7, the Lenco, the Denon DL-103, varous MMs, should not be avoided due to perceived "colourations" (i.e. it sounds too musical and enjoyable therefore it MUST be coloured, thinking which rose to full force with the rise of digital media/computer approximations of music, the "scientific" approach favoured by dissectionists/vivisectionsists which is itself a GROSS colouration, as real, live music is anything but analytical), but instead closely examined to see why they sound so musical, and design it into the next piece to achieve true progress.

In a related vein, I have never, personally, had so many moments of intense musical experience, of actual shivers, hairs rising on the body, virtual hypnotism and long nights of "conducting", dancing, borderline or actual crying as I have since I discovered the idler-wheel principle and more specifically the Lencos. And many many Lenco-ers (and Garrard-ers and so on) report the same thing, meaning that it is not so subjective, but is due to an underlying objective reality. All CJ PV-7 experiences are via the phono stage of course ;-). I see various discussions STILL on various forums as to why the Lenco sounds so good and conquers most of those who hear it, or own it and favour it over large collections of various high-end and classic record players. The answer - as for the PV-7 - is simple: because it is doing something right. Meaning that, though its speed stability - as with belt-drives and direct drives - may not be perfect (nothing is in this world), its imperfections do not detract from the musical experience, while the speed imperfections of BDs and DDs ARE more intrusive, and so more destructive of the musical experience. But, unlike the PV-7, the Lenco has no weakness in audiophile terms: its retrieval of musical information/detail is astonishing, its frequency range is limitless, its dynamics unsurpassed, its bass deep and powerful and again limitless, the soundstage it produces is HUGE and cavernous, and this is all done with a high degree of refinement (none of the coarseness of other idler-wheel drives, though again this can be mitigated to a large degree by Direct Coupling and bearing upgrades).

Anyway, get yourself a PV-7 Mike and play, they're cheap'n cheerful, relatively common (unlike the much-rarer PV-8), and unbelievably good, in the sense of sheer enjoyment and magic. The CJ PV-8 is also incredible, and will also root me to the spot, but for different reasons: its sheer dynamics, combined with clarity and detail (more detailed than the EAR even with the better tube complement) and superb bass shows things in recordings (also due to the dynamics which help "reveal" the minutiae of recording and production) I have never heard or noticed before. For instance, the other night I played the Eurythmics "Sweet Dreams are Made of This" LP, and though I've owned it since it came out and have owned various high-end turntables since that time, I have never heard it like this: every song was excellent (I previously only truly liked the title track), due not only to the music, but to how the Lenco/JMW/Clearuadio Concerto/PV-8 clearly showed how the recording/production was done, a integral part of any Eurythmics piece. It was exciting, superb, informative and MUSICAL all at once. Evidently this quality could be heard out on the street, as some sudents walking out in the street in front of my house stopped (the windows were open) and I could hear them say "Let's stop and listen to the party". They sat on the steps (giving out onto the sidewalk) through the two-hour "concert" while I worked on my soundroom. And the PV-8 handles low-output MCs with ease, the Concerto's .5 mv still too much for the PV-8 (via the sensitive Technics SB-4s) so that I still cannot raise the volume beyond 9 o'clock on the volume control. A bunch of 5751s instead of 12AX7s will tame this, AND increase resolution.

But, all that said, the PV-7 is STILL the PV-8's superior in the sense of that high degree of magic. So, I'm keeping them both :-), and will switch back and forth. Can you tell I'm a vintage CJ fan? Haven't heard the new stuff.

Anyway, let me know how the 5751 works out in your EAR Mike, thanks for the compliment on the Lencos, I really like that green and cream combination!! And have fun all, the new soundroom is REALLY an important part of the musical experience!!

I know you have someone to ask re the voltage divider :) Just two resistors to take the place of the pot - TECHNICAL! :0)

The weak bass on the PV7 "may" just be small output caps meant to cut-off low frequencies - warp and wow, etc. I would be very careful about playing with RIAA caps though. Maybe there is an upgrade thread somewhere on the web.

The LCR - on the other hand - is supposed to be the most transparent and have the most realistic timbre of any phono stage - supposedly. I also suppose the owners of Bolder and Walker might disagree, but Wavac was selling them for like $12 large so I guess they had to be doing someing right.

It will be interesting to see how listenable it is.

Mike

Hi all, for those who did track down certain vintage Sony pieces on my recommendations and reports, good news: I received my now perfectly-silent Sony 2000F back from the technician (who again stayed for some tunes via the Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco), and we immediately hooked it up in the system. Well, damned if the Sony, in terms of resolution, didn't match the two CJs and the EAR 834P. It comes with a very flexible phono stage (in fact, two!) with various settings for both LOMCs and MMs. It has drive, tons of PRaT and and an organic cohesiveness (ALL vintage Sony electronics from 1966-1976 have this: they were targetting McIntosh and Marantz at that time, and did a great job of emulating tubes via SS), and in strict audiophile terms beats out the legendary Dolan (which I owned and sold on after receiving the two CJs), except, like tube amps, in the bass. In my system as configured now, it is still edged out in terms of magic and dynamics by the three tubed preamps, but I'll set it up with a vintage Sony amp and see how it works out there. REALLY looking forward to this :-), the vintage Sony pieces are a hoot (and beautifully-built). Look for the TAE-5450 pre, the TAE-8450 (the top), the Sony 2000F, 1120 and 1130 integrateds (heavy-duty!), the 31XX series of amps and so on, including the V-fet series Sony developed (now currently adopted by Spectral), to demonstrate how serious they were back then.

Yet another CD man came by, this time far more audiophile-oriented (a HUGE stack and vintage and current classic high-end gear), who had given up on vinyl and embraced The Remote, out of curiosity at increasing reports of the Lenco POWER, something even the Lenco's "opponents" (besotted with belt-drive, the inertia of the long-dominating belt-drive Dogma and the lure of Status/recognizeable names/price tags and the support of the Audio Police [Stereophile, TAS, etc.]) grant the Lenco. Well, the first thing which struck me, both Digital visitors taken together, is how both immediately and readily admitted the Lenco's superiority to digital in terms of dynamics!! Now this is EXTREMELY important as, the ongoing/never-ending debate in the battle between analog-ers and the digital crowd is which system is in actuality de facto more dynamic. The reason this debate is ongoing is because both belt-drives and DDs lose out in dynamics against idler-wheel drives, and so in actual auditioning/comparisons, vinyl vs digital shootouts, the issue is not settled or clear. But, with the Lenco, the issue is clear, and devoted digitizers admit this within the first two minutes of exposure to the Lenco. The dynamics are more readily heard also because the Lenco is so refined, so precise, which allows the dynamic speed (the isntantaneous dynamic explosions) to be clearly heard (and not muddied by grain and various distortions). Also because, I believe, the Lencos in particular approach the speed stability of digital media (their sole advantage in my book over analogue, as the lasers do not affect speed stability one whit, leaving it entirely to the motor/transport, effectively operating in vacuum) more closely than any other 'table.

In the Shootout between the Lenco and the SME 30, the owner of the SME declared all Lenco superiority - which included dynamics and a sense of 3D palpability - a colouration. But I believe the dynamics are in the record/pressing/recording, as I also fail to understand how a slab of metal Direct Coupled to a large inert mass (Russian birch-ply/MDF) can create dynamics out of thin air. I mean we're talking as inert as a bag of sand, but without a bag of sand's killing of dynamics, which is why I favour the birch-ply/MDF recipe, which is also tonally spot-on and neutral (but, as in everything else, there are varying levels of success in perfecting this recipe, clamping and the quality of the materials have their effect, as well as implementation).

I live next to a musician and am occasionally invited to jam sessions (where beer is an important element ;-)), and get to hear live singing and playing in his living room. Those voices have no dynamic limits (this depends on the strength of the singer's voice), and likewise, on the Lenco, vocals strike the listener - perhaps more than anything else - with their limitless lack of dynamic ceiling on outbursts (and every instrument as well). In fact, the musician is so smitten with the sound of the Lenco/system he has asked me to host his jam group and entourage today to come hear for themselves. This after one of the songs they played last night: an incredible duet/stereo rendition last night, the two playing David Bowie's Space Oddity, one of the great musical experiences of my life. After THIS, which I was privileged to hear, the neighbour brought up my record players, and asked to bring them over. And to emphasize the point some more, he has no experience of audiophile equipment. We are talking SERIOUS performance for the Lenco, which also gets the music/magic right, unlike any other source I have ever heard, sounding SO close to the real thing (depending on accompanying equipment). I believe that, under the spell of the idea of "neutrality", which is actually a gross colouration (a coldness and analytical quality which is the stripping away of "flow", gestalt, organic and harmonic unity, which digital media embodies perfectly, but which certain DDs and high-mass belt-drives emulate with some success), many audiophiles embrace this artificial sound over and against something which does a good approximation of live music.

Which brings me to the two CJ preamps: they both (the PV-7 to a greater degree) somehow make ALL recordings come across as live. That includes studio recordings. I don't know what's going on, whether or not the CJ pres are adding something or retrieving, but I confess I LOVE it, as it makes my entire collection far more rivetting and involving, and makes understanding of each musical piece far easier to achieve. As with the Eurythmics' Sweet Dreams LP which until I heard it the other day I had never understood/appreciated as the masterpiece it is (and so many others!). The liveness comes also from the easy retrieval of the air and resonances in the studios (!), as well as both CJs' ability to cast 3D images, and so give the impression the musicians are in the room, live recording or not. And NEVER have I heard live recordings SO live! Of course, these experiences wouldn't be possible without the Mighty Lenco ;-).

Anyway Mike, good luck in your phono experiments, this is enough for now though there;'s so much more to talk about (the reinsertion of the rebuilt Leak Stereo Twenty, the incredible abilities of the Technics' SB/Studio Series of loudspeakers, and so on). I'll be sending in my PV-7 for an overhaul, and getting into the Tube Game, sigh, ANOTHER obsession ;-). Have fun with your obsessions all, as I first wrote nigh-on four years ago now and have continued to write, to some ad nauseum ;-), Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel!

If you love the PV7 so much - why not send the PV8 for the overhaul and then compare? I have had vintage gear sound completely different after replacing a few parts.

Are you saying that Spectral will fix the Sony V-fet components?

I agree there is nothing like real music to break the spell of most hi-fi gear. Have you ever noticed how loud real instruments can be, yet they dont seem hurt your ears?

Mike

Hi Mike, sorry for the delay, sill moving and adjusting. No, Spectral has embraced the V-fet in their latest designs, (Yamaha had also, and their V-fet designs, B-1 and A-1 I believe, were considered the best they ever made), but won't fix Sony designs. Though perhaps their V-fets are acceptable substitutes for vintage Sony pieces, if you can get them to part with some. However, in my experience I haven't ever come across blown V-fets.

As to the PV-7, my heart is more with the PV-7 than with the PV-8, and since it has weak bass, I figure this is due to a tired power supply, though it may be some new AT-7s might fix this. Though I'm really nervous about changing the PV-7's sound, I'll make sure everything is "by the book" in the rebuild. Still tube-rolling over here in the meantime :-). I'll eventually overhaul the PV-8 too.

I've now brought over my collection of vintage speakers (excepting the Klipsch Cornwalls for which I'll have to rent a truck) and today I'll have a big shootout to see which get to stay in the soundroom and which will be put in the basement: Klipch Heresy MKIs, Spendpor BC-1s, ESS AMT4s, and of course the Technics SB-4s which are currently giving me such enjoyment. For those wondering why I have so many vintage speakers, and no current ones, it's because all current ones I've tested have so far have had their asses kicked by these vintage designs :-)!! The ESS AMT4s have those fabulous Heil Air Motion Transformers midrange/high-frequency elements (said to be the best overall driver ever developed), the woofers in these particular ones are as fast as the AMT elements, are very sensitive (thus giving free rein to the Lenco mighty dynamics and transient speed) and the cabinets are as heavy and dead as cement; the Klipsch have incredible speed and detail-retrieval, are very sensitive and work well with SS as well as with low-powered tube amps and work well in small rooms; and the Spendors speak for themselves, have an incredible seductive midrange, excellent PRaT and gestalt/unity/harmony (another set of Lenco/Idler strengths) and with the right amp (Pierre's 100-watt SS amp which still sounds like an ultra-powerful SET) slamming fast and accurate bass as well, though they won't go particularly loud before bottoming out (due to the Lencos almost-excessive speed and slam in the bass) so for refinement and smaller rooms.

As for realistic dynamic swings not hurting ears (hardening of the upper midrange/aggressive treble), I've found that both the Leak and the Pierre amps accomplish this feat when accompanied by warmed-up CJs, which is one reason I'm so in love with the Technics SB-4s (as well as my next-door musician neighbour)! I'm hoping it's due to the CJ's, I'll find out today/tomorrow in my own personal Shootout (what fun!!). Let me know how the 5751 works out in the EAR when you get around to it Mike.

I'm building shelving in the basement for my large collection of vintage hi-fi, and for my large collection of record players (which is soon to include a Linn LP12/Ittok combo, I want to delve into its PRaT abilities). Soon as my soundroom/collection is organized, I'll start inviting various serious audiophiles over (already started) to experience what carefully-chosen vintage pieces can do, ESPECIALLY when backed up by large idler-wheel drives!! Have fun all!

"The ESS AMT4s have those fabulous Heil Air Motion Transformers midrange/high-frequency elements (said to be the best overall driver ever developed)..."

Who said that? I remember those drivers quite well. Heard them with a wide variety of ss and tube amplifiers back in their day. I always thought they had an annoying plastic-y coloration that was really grating over time. Plus, as I recall there was a very discernible disassociation between the Heil unit and the woofer in the AMT4. They couldn't hold a candle to a good ESL, in my opinion. I don't mean to sound so aggressive, but I'm just wondering. I don't doubt the sincerity of your opinion. Maybe with certain specific electronics, their coloration is ameliorated.

Hi Lew, just taking a break from building shelving and thought I'd take a look. From the grapevine I've heard in fact the precise opposite concerning the AMT4's (these are the "smallest" stand-mounters) woofer/tweeter integration, and this is how I hear it (it's the larger AMT1s which had the integration problem). Several well-heeled audiophiles visiting my various soundrooms have always been wowed by these specific speakers again and again, as opposed to the rest of the list which leaves them less impressed all taken in all, as the ESS garner universal/unanimous approval, while the rest get raves from some and not from others, more of a mixed bag of reactions. A simple Googling reveals many fans still of these speakers, who won't let them go for anything, even while owning highly-regarded current designs. Evidently synergies exist.

Things have changed over the years with respect to cabling (I use a mix of Petras for interconnects and solid-core for speaker wire, both very smooth and aggression-free), and set-up (specialized metal stands which I use with my AMT4s, Tiptoes and so on), which might account for the lack of annoying colourations, and their existence back when. Of course, some amps excite the tweeters more than others, as with all speakers, so I go with what works, again as with all speakers.

The Heils and various spin-offs are currently being used in a rather large variety of pricey high-end speakers still today (especially in Europe), and their specs are magnificent: a 97-db efficient driver capable of taking up to 300 watts without distortion and with a frequency range going from a typical 1200 hz (sometimes as low as 800) up into the stratosphere. The trick is implementation, as always. As always with most things, YMMV.

That said, I prefer a variety of other speakers as far as PRaT/musicality goes, which is why the AMT's don't simply stay in the system, perhaps there is a dissociation between the tweeters and woofers being revealed here. But, I've never replaced the elements in the crossover, they sound so good, we'll what happens when I do. Others are not so sensitive to PRaT/timing issues, which explains the more ambivalent reactions re. the other speakers on my list, who prefer the smooth raw detail/information and beautiful string sounds of the AMTs (no other speaker in my experience plays guitar playing like the Heils, for string fans). I do prefer the vintage Sony amps for the Heils, or the Pierre Amp which is ultra-smooth/velvety, which are both tubey-sounding. The Heils are ultra-revealing of any hardness or brightness in an amp, or wiring. Tubes and the Heils don't mix so well, as then there is a glassy colouration, so far in my experience, though I'll try the Leak again with the Heils at some point.

So far, the Technics SB-4s (!!) are leading the charge, the Spendors go downstairs, the ESS go up next, I'll report on this between shelf-building.

Hey, makes sense. Isn't moving fun :) I do envy you having access to all that vintage gear.

I'll give a holler re the 5751 in my EAR. Right now I am concentrating on the new LCR pre. The wood working takes comparitively forever. I finished the circuit boards in one day. A Wavac LCR phono pre went up for sale here at Audiogon a few days back - $12K, used!

Mike

Hey everybody!

Per Jean, I tried the 5751 in my EAR phono pre over the weekend. Surprisingly, it was a discernable upgrade. I say surprising because AFAIK, the 5751 is just a low noise 12AX7 but it gave the following benefits: stronger lower treble and clearer upper mids. This had the effect of increasing detail w/o adding any treble bite and increasing the PRAT. Maybe - just maybe, lost a little bass, I cant tell yet. In any case, that would probably be a plus in my system.

Mike

Although it's OK to replace a 12AX7 with a 5751, the 5751 is electrically slightly different, mostly in that it has a lower mu and slightly lower plate resistance than a 12AX7. And I am not sure the 5751 is inherently a lower noise tube compared to any 12AX7 variant (e.g., ECC83, etc.). The slight reduction in gain could reduce amplification of other sources of circuit noise and thereby give an impression of overall lower noise. Sonic differences you hear could be due to the differences in electrical parameters between the two tube types. But that's perfectly fine, of course.

Thanks Lew - I looked at the spec sheet. Amplification factor of 70 as opposed to 100 for the 12AX7. You are right, GE's spec sheet doesnt say anything about low-noise, the 5751 is for "rigorous duty", i.e., a missle tube. Nevertheless, on first impression, it does sound good.

Mike

Hi all, really busy right now so consider this a guerilla hit and then I have to run. Be back later to elaborate. Yep, that 5751 makes a world of difference, in the EAR 834P anyway. Considered a lower-noise tube than the 12AX7 even the reduced gain aside, and more accurate to boot. I wanna try it in my too-much-gain CJ PV-8 too, though there are risks, I'll leave the cover off and observe for any out-of-the-ordinary events, smoke, fire.

Now to the real news: I've just come up with a near-free HUGE and important improvement for the Lenco, as events at Rick's place (the floppy/drunken idler-wheel arm post), experimenting with Reinderspeter's top-plate and a recent rebuild of a Lenco and preparation of a Technics SP10 MKII all conspired to Show me The Way. Haha a teaser :-)!! Still listening right now, so I'll keep it under my hat until I know for sure.

On the speaker side, there's nothing in this world will touch a BIG horn-loaded speaker, now I've got those incredible Electro-Voice SERIOUSLY blowing me away (for Mario if he's watching: a 12TRXB (two-way dual-concentric) crossing over to a T25A horn-loaded midrange, with two L-pads. These speakers need a truly well-damped (over-damped?) room in order to perform with no nasties, but once that's done, there's nothing I've ever heard which will touch these: talk about TECHNICOLOR. Makes everything else sound anemic and tired. The best and tightest bass I've ever heard (and I mean LOW reach, tightness and the SLAM of George Frasier, if anyone remembers); a detail-meister; even the highs are rich and glorious (if not ultra-extended like angels squeaking)!! And talk about seductive RICHNESS, like drowning in an ocean (and I mean ocean, the sound envelops you so) of dark chocolate, but with with razor-sharp candy (transients) and explosives (dynamics to level the Rockies) inside. Those looking for a "vintage" system which will duke it out with the best of modern/current, look for these, or for the big Klipsches: next stop the Battle Royal between the Cornwalls and these particular E-Vs (whatever they are). But think shag carpeting, big fluffy couches, tons of crap lining the walls, suspended ceilings. Or you'll know what your tooth enamel is made of, or was made of. Maybe a couch, some books and a rug will do, I'm working on it. At my buddy's place (you guessed it: big fluffy couches, shag carpeting, tons of crap on the walls, suspended ceilings), simply the best I've ever heard, anywhere, ever. At least it doesn't take a carpenter and a gazillion bucks, just some bad taste, and a trip to the used furniture shop ;-). Speakers plus these furnishings, much less than any speaker which can stand in their shade :-).

Gotta go pack my car, I'm off on a trip for a few days looking for Templars in the Northern forests ;-). Have fun all!!

Jean, As you fade off into the sunset, did I hear you intimate that you are building/have built a plinth for an SP10? While I am no lover of the Heil tweeter, I've had a longstanding curiosity re those big EV (and JBL) horn-loaded spkrs of the 50s. I bet they're great.

Hi Jean,
Those EV triaxials must sound great! Originally matched for Aristocat enclosures - guess about 8+ cubic feet? Saw another pair of EV-16s down at my municipal re-use center @ $5 for the pair. Once again, no foam, no grilles and, little doubt, in need of cross-over rebuilds.
Now the 12” EV-16s three-ways with Danish mids and paper tweeters, are nowhere in the same league as the 12TRX/12TRXB, but I was simply astounded when they left my Rectilinears sounding tepid when stacked for easy A/B comparison.
Then something happened… they fell off completely. Not sure whether I used a couple of bad capacitors from a defective batch (Dayton “audio” grade) or I did something ruinous to the voice coils – but they're “get up and go” has “got up and left”. Hmmmm. Sometimes I wonder if these old paper cones are environmentally sensitive – temperature/humidity etc. Maybe they’re winter performers. In the meantime, I think I’ll take a pass on those orphans at re-use and look to step up into the EV/Horn combo.
A stab at your tease…. Bearing capture into the plinth?
All best,
- Mario

Hi Lew and Mario, back from the Great White North, the scenery on the way up was incredible. Now I can let the cat out of the bag, it was to deliver a Lenco, which conquered (in a system consisting of Joule Electra preamp, Sonic Frontiers phono stage, large VAC amp, large Proac towers) the fellow being a "true" audiophile, in the sense that he trusted his ears and left prejudice aside. I agreed to go up there as I'm a Gypsy by nature and was damned curious. Also, I had done some research suggesting that there may have been a European mining outpost up there before Columbus sailed, be returning to check that out further. Some shenanigans going on up there in the 16th/17th centuries for sure. For those who don't know, the area around Lake Temiskaming is an incredibly rich mining area (one village called Val D'Or, "Valley of Gold"_, gold, silver, cobalt by the literal ton. About two-thirds of the way up signs informed me that from that point up, all rivers spilled into the Arctic reservoir. I wonder if that's the northernmost Lenco :-)? Signs, once IN the town, ask you to PLEASE DON'T FEED THE BEARS.

Anyway, yes Lew, I've already replinthed several Technics SP10 MKIIs, back from when in the day I considered the big DDs the only REAL threat to Idler Supremacy. Now I'm re-working an older plinth, will take a look to see what further I can do to extract more. So far, the Sony 2250 DD is a better machine, likely because it can be Direct Coupled while, so far anyway (I'm looking into it), the SP10 can be bolted but not screwed, so to speak ;-), and so not Direct Coupled. The Sony also has a superior main bearing, simply incredible. Anyway, I'm playing with it once again. To underline something, it has been a dictum among SP10 fans since long before I started my Audiogon/internet/forums activities on behalf of the Idler that a minimum of 60-70 pounds of plinth is required to make the Technics truly behave/sing. Heavy plinths were already de riguer in dealing with Garrards. I took this as a starting point and added Direct Coupling and materials, attention to the mechanisms and so forth.

The big horn-loaded vintage speakers have something for which there is no substitute, no going against the laws of Physics: VOLUME. A BIG box translates into a BIG sound, with POWER behind it. Match this volume to horns with massive cast baskets and magnets (the EV drivers - used in many Klipsch speakers - are awesome to behold), and you are in for an EXPERIENCE. But, and there's always a "but", a seriously damped room is a must, the midrange horns especially can be problematic, interacting with a room to create a piercing upper midrange sharpness. But, with carpeting on the floor and big fluffy things, this disappears entirely, to leave the speakers do what they do best, which is almost EVERYTHING. I'm going to put heavy carpet/rug on the floor, and perhaps a second couch or large chair on a side wall. I the meantime, I have a true high-end vintage system: Lenco idler-wheel drive (of course); vintage CJ preamp (PV-7 and PV-8) and rebuilt Leak Stereo 20 (EL-84s) going to big horns by EV and Klipsch. And the sound has never been more modern: ultra-fast, incredible air and imaging. The only thing NOT modern is the ultra-powerful bass and limitless dynamics, and the UTTER absence of an analytical quality/colouration (to turn the tables ;-))!!

Hi Mario, the enclosures on my EVs measure 22"W x 28"H x 19"D, being large vintage television size. I'll post photos when I get everything set up. The Klipsch Cornwalls are much larger, and have 15" woofers to boot! The resolution on these horn-loaded speakers is amazing, something I had not heard mentioned on most websites, the "little" Klipsch Heresy's for instance out-detailing everything else I've had in my system, including the ESS ribbon midrange/tweeters, legendary for detail/resolution. They are ultra-fast. So, once the Cornwalls set up, I expect great things. Ditto the E-Vs. One pair I keep, the other pair go to my buddy's place.

The new Lenco mod is SO simple I'm amazed I never saw it before, but that's always the way with great things, isn't it? It was the result of the drunken idler-wheel post in the Great Shootout with the SME 30, playing with Reinderspeter's top-plate, rebuilding the Northern Lenco, and working on the Technics SP-10, for which I bought small washers for repair, and so had next to me. The mod is simple: It is to stiffen the little idler-wheel post by means of inserting washers above and below the top-plate, so that the threads/nut can be tightened completely. That's between the post and the slider on top, keeping the spring-washer between the new washer and the slider, and again underneath the top-plate, between the nut and the under-slider. As I worked on the Northern Lenco, I was drawn to the slightly floppy post, and wondered if, as at Rick's place, it was a mismatch (top-plate not thick enough). I double-checked with another Lenco and found that all was "fine". Since the Lencos had always sounded so fabulous, I had never REALLY closely examined and looked at the idler-wheel post, which indeed as designed DOES reel about in all directions like a drunken sailor. I realized then that making the post stationary would vastly increase speed stability, which MUST increase sound quality. Things to expect would be even more razor-sharp transients (and let's recall that a Lenco with a truly drunken/broken idler-wheel post duked it out with a SME 30, matched it in resolution, beat it in terms of dynamics and transient speed and a sense of 3D "thereness"/palpability, matched/edged it out in terms of bass information and reach, though all these were dismissed as colourations by the SME owner), tighter and more informative bass, and a greater sense of cleanness. Sure enough, this is what I heard in my own system, briefly, and again in the far North, where this all was VERY clear via that high-resolution system. The bass - even on the "small" Proac towers (by vintage standards ;-) - was amazing, and the CLARITY was incredible. Best of all: the Lenco "magic" - its sense of fluidity and inexorable power, its overall dynamics and incredible gestalt (which I was worried might in fact be attributable to the drunken post) - was left intact! Be warned that the much stiffer post (stiff as a 14-year-old boy at a nudist colony) makes speed adjustment a chore. but once done, it will STAY, making the Lenco much less sensitive to transportation to boot.

And another note on the subject of Russian birch-ply/MDF recipe: it was clear, AGAIN in a very high-end high-resolution system (and I have heard many Lencos in many MORE high-end high-resolution systems), that this recipe is tonally "perfect", letting the true sound of instrument shine through. The highs ultra-extended, the bass bottomless, and everything in-between in proper balance, not to mention limitless dynamics across the frequency spectrum unmarred by brightness, hardness or grain. It is a sickness among audiophiles -exploited by many - to seek the complex, exotic, EXPENSIVE solution, and to dismiss - against the evidence of their own sense, anything which is practical and "cheap" (not so cheap). This is simple prejudice. Of course, there are varying degrees of success in this recipe, careful clamping and design is a must, and there are varying qualities of both MDF and birch-ply. Leave it to the tonearm board to play with material, I favour solid wood, walnut most of all, but am presently experimenting with rosewood (also used in instruments), and such dense woods as ipe and so forth. Finally, Direct Coupling, which makes a VAST improvement/difference, can only be achieved (easily/practically anyway) with wood products.

After I had thought of the little post/washer mod, it occurred to me that Reindersperter's top-plate, which played a part in my thinking, was superior to a glass-reinforced original top-plate not so much because of the extra-thick top-plate (a great idea anyway) or isolated motor (also a great idea), but because the post screws into a sold piece/slider, and so is stiff and not loose. In other words, because of increased speed stability. I'll be testing out this theory. Whatever the case, those who have stock Lenco top-plates, Get Ye some little washers, a few cents, and stiffen those posts!!!

Finally a word about speed stability and the music encrypted in those black discs. This proves that it is not absolute speed stability which is most important, which is impossible to achieve in the physical world, but the form the speed INstabilities take. A belt-drive's speed instabilities are a direct response to groove modulations, and this is heard in inferior transients, dynamics and bass power. A quartz-locked DD's speed instabilities are caused by the electronics, which are heard digital-fashion by the human ear (dash-dash-dash), and so which sounds like digital: dry and analytical (some prefer this sound, but it IS a colouration). An idler's speed instabilities are caused by the drive system, but is is ANALOGUE (momentum of motor and platter)/smooth, and so LEAST damaging to the musical signal. And regardless of rumours of less torque with idlers (faulty mathematics/missing-misinterpreted information somewhere), a simple effort to stop the platter on any big idler (VERY difficult relative to both DDs and belt-drives) settles the issue. So what happens when you take a powerful big and very evolved idler and perfect the speed stability even further? Tighten those posts and find out!!! And, finally, Direct Coupling to a high inert mass improves the speed stability of ALL systems, smooths out quartz-locked DDs, making them more musical, and should also do the same for belt-drives, though to a lesser extent. But so far in my experience, the Idler still rules.

Have fun all, more to report once the dust settles!! Vive la Ever-Improving Lenco, Vive la Ever-Improving Idler-Wheel!!!!

Great mod Jean,I did the idler post mod to my replinthed L70 and it made a big improvement.

Jean, Are you talking about the distal end of the idler arm, where it attaches to the chassis, originally with rubber washers on either side of the nut/bolt that hold it to the chassis? Ugghh, I'll have to remove the chassis from the plinth to do that one, always a thrill.

Hi Lew, yep, you'll have to dismantle the thing to get at the nether end of the idler wheel arm, but I am planning on going down to do a whole slew of Lenco updates later in the fall, you might wait.

Moving my Cornwalls in tonight, along with my furniture and proper stands! In the meantime, I have to say those Technics SB-4s are incredible, and if the bass from the Big Boys is too much for the neighbours, as seems eventually likely (the EVs with 12" bass drivers is already awesome, who knows what the Cornwalls with 15" woofers will do?!?), then the Technics it'll be, as they won the battle amongst the normal stand-mounters, though in many ways the Klipsch Heresy's edged them out (the Technics just having a transparency and PRaT and gestalt which is incredible). Back in the day Hi Fi Answers were utterly smitten by the special Technics flat-diaphragm honeycomb drivers, and thought they were the wave of the future, but I guess Technics just doesn't have audiophile cred.

Back later with more to report, can't wait to hear what the Cornwalls will do!!

Couple of questions for all of you.

1) How much is too much to pay for a used Lenco table?
2) Seems most of the ones I find are in the UK, 50Hz. Since the guy is no longer turning down the motor spindles, where can one find a 60Hz spindle? T&G don't have any.

TIA

Hi TIA: the answer to the first question is how much is it worth to you? Considering that just sitting on bricks with a Rega stuck in the hole the Lenco easily bested a fully-tricked-out Linn LP12, and with not much more than that a VPI TNT (as reported in early days on the first version of this thread which can be downloaded on Lenco Lovers), then I would say forget about what others are paying and just get it. As done all the way, the upper limits have not yet been found, up to $50K belt-drive set-ups. But, the higher end seems to be about $300 (ridiculous, ain't it?).

The answer to #2 is to stay away from European motors in NA, and vice versa, as the windings are different and you don't get full performance (i.e. torque) in NA anyway, and NA ones just won't work in Europe. Wait for a NA one, or get a European one, but buy a NA B55, which are cheaper and have the same motor and idler-wheel as the bigger Lencos. Good luck!

Jean,
Thanks for the information. Did not know the B55 used the same motor. Lot's to read.....

Oh, the name is Bill.

TIA = thanks in advance :)

D'Oh! Pleased to meet you Bill, gotta stay on top of Internet-ese.

On the speaker front the Klispch Cornwalls become my Reference Speaker, not because they're better than the big EVs, but because they simply interact with my room better (no horn colourations, which in the right room disappear with the EVs). It must be said mine have been modded with paper-in-oil capacitors, which are said to tame the Mighty Beast. But the detail is exquisite, the dynamics limitless, the bass awesome, and they are unfailingly musical and easy on the ear, as in pleasing to the ear (not the bogus "musical" which means "informative")....in fact, all the characteristics of the Mighty Lenco!!! Nevertheless, they are more "neutral" than the EVs; which are, in their turn, more exciting and spectacular. Good thing they're going to my buddy's place, where I can enjoy them periodically.

And as a warning not to judge given limited information: with the EVs the CJ PV-7 had superior bass and dynamics, but with the Cornwalls, the CJ PV-8 takes the lead. The Klipsches have a more "modern" sound (and are more modern, mine being the series II), while the EVs are older, Sixties era I believe, perhaps they respond to the more vintage circuit in the PV-7. Lots of wrong conclusions about older circuits (which perform better with older speakers, which are themselves unsurpassed since, like the EVs, you've GOT to hear some) out there!! Glad I have both!! In both cases, PV-7 and PV-8, I used the Leak Stereo 20 to drive the Cornwalls. Be interesting to hear the Cornies (?) with some of my SS amps, but some other night: those 15" woofers are producing some SERIOUS bass, time to upset the neighbours!! I made a trip to Home Despot to buy some cinderblocks to put under the Cornies, to tighten the bass and raise the tweeters. But still some VERY serious bass!

Have fun all, I'll post pics of my vintage system once I have daylight to shine on those Cornwalls, which are so big - with 15" woofers lost in a huge baffle - they are almost a caricature of a speaker!!

Oops, and thanks for reporting in with your corroboration Travbrow, I'm currently swamped and lots of things escape me these days!! But, I have to say quickly, that regardless of the system into which it is injected, the CJ PV-7 ALWAYS has that beguiling magical sound. I'll test it out with one of my SS amps and see what happens via the Cornwalls. The PV-8 is sounding fabulous via the big Klispch Cornwalls however, glad I have both!! Anyway, gotta run, in the middle of listening to Reinderspeter's top-plate again!!

Got to chime in-
Hi Jean, TIA, Bill, 04rdking,

Hi TIA: the answer to the first question is how much is it worth to you? Considering that just sitting on bricks with a Rega stuck in the hole the Lenco easily bested a fully-tricked-out Linn LP12, and with not much more than that a VPI TNT (as reported in early days on the first version of this thread which can be downloaded on Lenco Lovers)

I'd like to add 2 others tables that were bested by a crappy old L75, original arm, sitting on bricks before full rebuild and custom plinth-
Nottingham Hyperspace
Well Tempered

Remember: friends don't let friends use belt drives!

I suppose I'll get slammed for writing this, but I have had a lot of exposure for the last 10 years to my friend's Well Tempered Reference table and arm, and I find nothing there to yearn for. The sound is invariably overdamped and unexciting. And mounting a cartridge on the WT tonearm is a nightmare such that I noticed on a recent visit that my friend has given up trying to mount a Dynavector 17D3, after buying a Feickert protractor for that sole task. The headshell has round holes rather than slots, so the only way to adjust overhang is by loosening the screw that binds the vertical pivot shaft which permits rotation of the tonearm at its base. Problem is that the screw is located in a deep recess under the chassis; it's near impossible to get overhang correct and then tighten that screw without destroying the set-up. I know this is irrelevant to the thread, but I am upset about it on behalf of my friend.

Lewm, we share your empathy :) Lenco takes us from the legacy hifi hairshirt stance of 'no pain no gain', to NO PAIN ALL GAIN. It is too good to be true innit? ;)

Well, we're using the Lenco chassis, and most of us are not using the Lenco tonearm and plinth, so it's not really a fair comparison to the WTR. But by any standards, the WTR w/tonearm is very difficult to work with if one wants to change cartridges. Also, the sonics don't hold a candle to any Lenco I've heard. In fairness, the WTR may have had a design upgrade in the 10 or more years since my friend bought his. Current models may be easier to use. I do think that the basic table is a very interesting, even brilliant, design among belt-drives. It's the tonearm that I dislike. And the design is such that without modifying the table one could not hope to use any other tonearm with it, except maybe an RS-A1. As long as I'm posting here and to get back to the topic, has anyone heard a Lenco in a slate plinth?

Yes - take a look at Lenco Lovers - PTP2 Slate. I am the culprit - knock the socks off my 85lb plinth. While it is in prototype stage, it already wins on sonics, refinement, air and everyting else you like to talk about. Just no going back.

David

Well, over here I am fine-tuning my new Reference System - those big Cornwalls are truly spectacular, but my neighbours will hate me ;-) - and, I've found a stone-working business which will give me a large variety of options, and I'm quite excited as it looks like I'm finally coming Full Circle.

Back when I first tripped over the Lencos, '92, I had had a financial backer - after he had heard that first Lenco which shows at the top of my system page - who was interested in getting into some sort of manufacturing. But that fell through, as at that time the large companies - Thorens, Shure, etc. - had announced they would cease production of analogue hardware, and it looked like CD had utterly won the war. Finally, many years later, I decided to simply give the audiophile world the secret of the Lencos (and the Idler Principle) and their improvements for free, here on Audiogon. But back at that time, I had planned on building plinths out of marble, as I was in love with Greece (as I still am), and marble seemed a "chaotic" material (CLD) which would give good sonic results. Marble being a chaotic material in the sense that it is compressed and heated limestone with deposits/impurities in it, which gives it that "marbled" effect.

I walked through a very large display of types of stone at this business, and gave a variety of stones - granites, marbles, travertine and slates - the Ping Test (holding up a piece of each of flicking it with my fingernail to test its deadness/lack of ringing). To my surprise, both some forms of marble and some forms of quartz (not all) rang less than slate. Travertine, a porous type of quasi/limestone/marble (and quite beautiful) - was deadest of all (and so I should some day comminssion a plinth out of this), after a truly striking impure marble (think huge swirls of intrusive material). Slate is layered and metamorphized shale/sedimentary rock whose main attribute is chemical -not physical - inertness. Marble can more truly be termed a "constrained layer damping" material - as is advertised - for it is a true mix of disparate materials. A Ping Test of a truly striking piece of marble, with gross impurities of definitely different types of stone (accounting for its striking appearance), gave the deadest of all "pings", being a true dull "thud", followed, as written, by travertine. What surprised me more was that some examples of granite were incredibly inert, which is counter-intuitive as they have high crystal content. But, again, quartz is an agglomeration of materials, as is also limestone, made, like slate, out of successive deposits, being a sedimentary rock.

Now, as with Reinderspeter's top-plate - which I eventually discovered sounded better than the regular Lenco not because of the reinforced top-plate (though this does improve things) but also largely because of the solid idler-wheel post which greatly improved speed stability and so focus, transients, detail and so on - we don't know if it is slate specifically which accounts for the alleged improvement in sound quality, or if it is the simple fact of the rigidity advantage ANY stone has over wood. I say "alleged" because audiophiles frequently fall into the trap that increased brightness/hardness - as one would expect from metal being clamped to stone - equals more information/actual detail. In a system tending towards darkness this would be a big plus, but more than that, we live in a current audiophile obsession with detail, which means Detail Uber Alles, detail trumps all, and so we have to be careful of any vogue. Interesting that all this current furore over slate started in Wales (that company lifting/plagiarizing both my system text and one photo from my Audiogon "system" in their advertising/website), which once dominated the world market for slate. Now, stone UNDER a Lenco definitely brings improvements to the machine: does it do this more effectively (i.e. eliminate flex/vibration as it does as a platform, bringing with it increased focus and control, which is why I consider a stone platform a near requirement) when the plinth is itself stone?

Given all these choices, and the high cost of having these made, I have to choose only two, so to settle the issue to my own satisfaction, I will commission a plinth made of slate, and one of marble. They can also make one for me out of soapstone (or anything else I can imagine), which should be a good material, but these pieces will be expensive so for now I restrict myself to two. If the marble is as, or more, effective than slate, then this opens up a whole new area of aesthetics, as anyone can choose any colour/type/pattern of stone according to their own tastes, and as with wood, the varieties of beautiful stone are practically limitless: blues, greens, reds, mixes of all of the above, swirls, gold-in-black, white, etc. Then let's not forget the MAIN issue of whether or not stone is better in the plinth or under a wooden one.

I am excited because for the first time since '92, it looks like I will finally have an actual physical example of that first Lenco I had planned, a brass-coloured Lenco (I will have it recoated as such) set in a white (ish) marble plinth. In admiration for ancient Greece ;-). So, Full Circle back to the first thought I had. Will be set in a place of honour, regardless of sonic results. So I use fluted columns :-)??

On other fronts, I have fine-tubed my Klipsch Cornwall system - and my buddy's Electro-Voice system, to achieve equally spectacular results from both! Holy Crap the sound!!!! But now it's time to go out to the country for a riverside beer, so I'll be back later with a whole slew of fresh lessons learned! Have fun with your idlers all!!!

Just a quickie, just supercharged an original Lenco tonearm to fantastic results! I used ultra-thin solid core internal wiring (the best tonearm wire methinks) soldered directly to Petra (Music Boy) interconnects (still my fave), replaced the original rubber V-blocks for the knife-edge bearings with brass ones sourced from Sander (can be contacted via Lenco Lovers), and drilled out the connecting end, drilled out a 'real' headshell and epoxied the thing in place, basically a repeat of what I had done way back in '93 or so when I first discovered the Lencos. But THAT Lenco was not Direct Coupled to a plinth and mounted with a Reinderspeter top-plate, and now the result is fantastic. How fantastic? Haven't had time to do comparisons yet, but sounds very clean, detailed, dynamic and with excellent tight bass with the Denon DL-103"E" (phonophono in Berlin).

I've now got the Reinderspeter Lenco sitting next to an Ultra Garrard, the Garrard having both the Kokomo bearing upgrade AND a Loricraft power supply, as well as being mounted in a truly gigantic plinth (Ultra), for ultimate refinement and the usual Idler POWER and SLAM. Not only that, while the Super Lenco tonearm sits on the Reinderspeter Lenco, the 12" Cherry tonearm (available here on Audiogon for $200) is also sounding excellent on the Ultra Garrard (it being mounted with the famed Empire 10PE MM, smokin'!). So it's the battle of the budget wonders (the Lenco tonearm much better-built than the cherry, but it's the sound that counts) on two Ultra-'Table Contenders!!

Also got myself an NOS Dynavector Karat Ruby, a superb MC, only just mounted but already sounding excellent.

Be back with further reporting and photos later. Have fun all!!

Jean, FYI, Raul Iregas had an SP10 mk II in a marble plinth and did not like the results. He "reverted" thereafter to a simple and not very heavy wood plinth (maybe made of Baltic Birch), and that is what he uses with the SP10. Two qualifiers are: (1) This was a Technics SP10, not a Lenco. The optimal plinth for a direct drive may be different from that for an idler, and (2) we don't know much about Raul's marble plinth except he did state that it was very heavy (100lbs?). Perhaps Raul would care to comment.

I've often wondered what is the point of the ping test in selecting materials for audio use? It seems to me that a good shelf or plinth material should be a material that is able to dissipate the vibrational energy put into it, as heat. There is a large body of knowledge in materials science as regards the ability of energy to pass from one material to another. (Some is reflected back and some is absorbed at each interface. When the energy pulse reaches the far boundary of the absorbing material, some of it is reflected back again toward the admitting surface.) So the question is how does the plinth or shelf material mate with the metal chassis of the turntable and then from there what happens to the energy that does get into the plinth. You could have the deadest substance on the planet, but if most of the energy from the tt chassis is reflected back at the interface OR if the mating is suboptimal in any way, the plinth is worthless. Maybe that's why marble failed in Raul's experiment. As for me, I am fairly satisfied that undamped granite sucks as shelf material, for another example. I would definitely not consider granite for a plinth.

That's why I went with Corian some years ago. Good looking, not too bad to work with, fairly easily shaped, very dead and dense with good mass.

Enjoy,
Bob

so does anyone know when Jean is returning from Greece?

He'll be back in a little over a week, or so he told me today (11/4). Dave

Jean is staying in Greece for another week.

I'm still in Greece, the weather and company are just too fine, and last summer was, quite frankly, crappy, time to make up for it, so I keep adding weeks to my initial 3-week voyage. Staying away from Da Net as its a holiday, and also because availability is so spotty on this isolated and undeveloped Greek island. I'll be stopping by in Athens on the way back to discuss record players and shop for vinyl in Monastiraki :-)!! See ya all next week, for real this time ;-)!! Lots of excellent audio experiments to begin the moment I return, and already being set up to boot. Can't keep a good analog-er down. Thanks to Dave for passing on my news, and apologies to everyone for constantly changing my itinerary. See you soon for more audio adventures!! Yamas, time for my daily Greek salad :-).

Hello all, I'm now back from Greece and struggling to re-adjust to both the former lifestyle - over the previous hiking lovely mountain paths in the mountains overlooking the Aegean, swimming in said sea, and drinking with the locals late into each night - and the temperature difference: sweating as I hiked compared with chilly sub-zero temperatures and constant snowfalls! But, I've already been active demonstrating my monstrous Ultra Lenco, for which demo I rewired a Rega RB-300 with ultra-fine solid core and Petra. As always when I take the time to properly set up an RB-300, I am stunned at how good it is.

The secret to the RB-300 is high-quality MCs (and rewiring). When used with MMs (especially Grados) or lower-end MCs, the Rega RB-250 sounds better, but as the MCs (especially, though some MMs, like the late lamented Shure V15 VxMR, sound incredible on a rewired RB-300) mount in quality, so too does the RB-300. I had first tried a Dyna 20X HO (latest version with the microridge stylus and tapped body), which sounded decent, but when out of curiosity I mounted the NOS Karat Ruby I had I was stunned at how much better it was. If one cruises the various forums looking at reports of the 17D vs the 20X, one reads it is a small but definite improvement, but what I heard on the Lenco/rewired RB-300 was an annihilation, and whole new order of excellence. It was MUCH faster, MUCH more transparent, MUCH more dynamic, fast, organized....the Karat Ruby (23RS) is incredible, (and one assumes the 17D MKIII is better still), and in many ways seems to outclass much more expensive MCs, though more listening is needed to confirm this, as bass is light and tight on the Karat, while bass on pricey MCs is much deeper and richer. But no contest in terms of speed and resulting organization, as the utter lack of smear means instruments are much easier to differentiate in dense passages.

This is evidently due also to the much greater speed and dynamics of idlers over belt-drives, which consequently goes much further to highlight the sonic differences between ultra-fast cartridges like the Karats (with their ultra-short gemstone cantilevers) and higher-end MCs, or indeed any other MCs or MMs (excepting perhaps the Deccas). Belt-drives, with their slower transients and much smaller dynamic palette minimize these differences, and maximize differences in bass reach and power (the Karats being drier and more damped). But, more auditioning is needed to find out exactly is going on. But, the Rega RB-300/Dyna Karat Ruby is in the same league, in terms of information-retrieval, as the much pricier JMW/Clearaudio Concerto I matched earlier against the SME 30/Graham Phantom/Benz Ebony, and which matched it in terms of detail, imaging and overall information-retrieval (other judgment aside). On top of this, the RB-300/Karat has excellent PRaT and gestalt, is not bright or fierce and so is natural-sounding with all recordings, making it a musical joy. So, extend this to include an RB-300/17D as a killer reasonably-priced match.

I'll be playing with other big idlers now winter's here, such as the Rek-o-Kut and Gates (built in some ways like an EMT), as well as various stone plinths and more on the Sony 2250.

One of the great impressions made by the Giant Direct Coupled Lenco in a Shindo eledtronics/Devore system is silence: a near-total absence of noise, including normal surface noise, making for ultra-black backgrounds.

Have fun all!