Hi Blammy,
my apology must have been someone else who was doing it years ago for TW in Germany, a mag named "LP"
Dgad,
yes my bearing had the ball bearing on top, yours must be an older design if it is the same as the AC because my AC was the same description you are referring to.
Guys I'm a pretty straight forward shooter, I'm just providing my own first hand experience. You don't have to agree that's okay, at lease one owner "Dgad" whom owns one has acknowledged he had the same issues in two areas.
As per my prior posts yes I did buy and own numerous TW products. Raven one was the most disappointing purchase after I got the AC3 and compared.
AC3, nice table - then comes my purchase of the BN. Physical appearance for me was night and day over the AC3 but should be at more than double the asking price, I appreciated the BN sonic wise.
So what happened Dgad?
Well after that "NEW PRODUCT" syndrome wore off specific things bothered me besides the numerous flaws I have mentioned previously. We are talking about a very expensive table here, $40 + K
At that time I could not get the speed to lock in as Dgad also mentioned with his. My controller unit had been sent back due to only being able to hold a 4-5 hour charge when on battery. I could hear a difference, as Dgad has written he had a similar experience.
Being in contact with both Jeff and Thomas I was basically being told "your crazy there is no difference being heard and the table runs on a accurate speed and the hours mentioned for battery is approx." and so on.
So be it.
At a point I found myself at a dead end so I started checking out other tables to learn more. I have learned allot and that there are all kinds of flavours, in the end really is subjective as I have read on numerous postings but I'm after what I like not others.
I know set-up, phono settings etc is important and have that covered and I always chuckle when specific individuals suggest there may be an issue there.
I'm happy where I'm at and don't see me saying it's the best sounding and best built, I always have the door open to try.
I actually have two tables, one that's been talked about in another forum mostly. Very interesting pce but very costly, also comes from Japan :-)
Rauliruegas, buy a TW BN table and place it in your system and then we can talk but until then you just won't get it.
Also you might want to keep an open mind in relation to Syntax table set-up, you just might learn something. :-)I know I have.
Obviously there was more going on then just not being able to hold an accurate speed but Dgad says at least that's now been resolved, good to hear.
I like it when manufactures listen, didn't originally to me but something must have happened.
I gotta go catch some waves so hang loose.
|
Thuchan, I completely agree with you that Timeline is the most accurate device. I added SDS to my VPI table soon after Timeline became available. Seeing how it was such a nifty toy, I bought one before I even own any strobe. I was surprised when my local dealer came over to set up my VPI using Kab strobe and when I put on Timeline, I could see how far off Kab strobe was in comparison to Timeline.
Initially I was glad I bought Timeline and even told my local dealer that they need to get one immediately because otherwise they cannot set up turntable properly.
Now a few years later, having gone through 2 Micro Seiki Turntable, 2 VPI tables and TW (keeping 3), I became a bit disillusion about Timeline. First, yes, I can dial in SDS and Micro Seiki and get steady line with Timeline. TW is always either a bit faster or slowly as the interval on speed controller is larger than SDS (I am using BN battery powered controller, no I don't know if my hold 20 hours charge but on my day off, I can use my TW for several hours with no need to recharge). I always measure with arm down on the table. The whole usual routine and tried to be as accurate as possible. One thing I could never compensated for though is the actual mass of Timeline itself. On TW, I prefer using no center weight. VPI HRX center weight is 6-700g if I remember correctly. I use Orsonic clamp with Micro Seiki. I have a few center weights lying around and tried many more up to 1 kg but this is currently what I have. Timeline itself unfortunately does not work so well for me as center weight otherwise it would solve the biggest problem for me. If I remember correctly, Timeline is about 200 odd grams. Using Timeline instead of my usual center weight, I will get one speed but as soon as I take off Timeline and put on my usual center weight, the speed will be changed.
Timeline is so sensitive that even a 200g weight change on a heavy Microseiki or TW platter, you can detect speed difference. Try calibrating speed with Timeline using 120g LP and 200g LP, you will notice a change in speed as well.
Does every Timeline user recalibrate or make a note to adjust speed controller every time they change LP?
How do you compensate for differences in mass of center weight use or if you don't use center weight.
This drives me nut for a while until I finally realize that it is not simple to acheive 100% accurate speed per Timeline reading in practice. Looks nice on paper, sounds great in theory but at the end of the day, I just settled for getting close enough to Timeline is just a-okay.
After I stop obsessing with fidgetting with Timeline, it was a lot easier to enjoy the music.
I still use Timeline as I did not bother to buy a strobe. On TW, I just pick the speed that is just a tad slower than Timeline's speed figuring that without Timeline, it will speed up a tad. On VPI SDS/Micro Seiki, I could dial in perfectly but I know that as soon as I put on my usual center weight, speed will be a bit off and I settled for that. I usually use 180g Lp to calibrate, when I listen to 120g, 100g, 200g LP, I know that speed will be a bit off as well and I settled for that as well.
Absolute speed accuracy is nice but the only acceptable speed, I don't think so.
Raul, Lewn, I also totally agree with you completely. |
Suteetat,
very helpful description of your experiences. In fact Timeline is a precise instrument but for daily business I prefer my Allnic or my Kuzma strobe. I use the Allnic on my Micro SX 8000 (the blue one). It is nice to put the light in a permanent position switching it on when you fix the clamp. Calibrating then with the SDS is very easy and precise.
Regarding the different weights of the clamps or strobes I am a bit careful when using heavy ones. Usually I don't use them on air supported TTs.
BTW I agree with your experience that the Koetsu Coralstone is a very good match with the Micro Seiki on a FR-66 tonearm. |
I'm fortunate in having two turntables......the DD Victor TT-101 which keeps perfect speed via the Timeline regardless of record clamps, weight of record, type of cartridge and VTA......and even regardless of whether there are no arms tracking the record or three arms tracking the record.
The other turntable......the Raven AC-2 which must be set with the cartridge tracking the grooves and can get very, very close to complete accuracy via the Timeline.....but because of its controller, will be either slightly fast or slightly slow. But consistently so.
The differences in sound due to the timing in the two turntables is undetectable in my system so Raul, Lew and Suteetat are all correct in their predictions on this issue.
As long as a turntable is revolving at a CONSISTENT speed........whether slightly slow or fast........is all that really matters. |
Raulirugas,
you said; "Dev is talkind about one critical audio subject: accuracy and things are that he owns tube technology that IMHO is not really accurat"
Wow! as the norm attacks on another's gear, clearly demonstrates you really have no clue. I also own SS gear and other speakers.
You appear that you are suggesting what you own is more accurate, if so that's just too funny :-) Lets all go out and purchase what you have, does that make you happy now! Don't hold your breath on that one happening any time soon.
Curious is that table set-up in the front centre some type of room tuning device adding you position those figurines on top just so Ha! Ha!
Some above are making mention they can't hear the difference when the speed is not locked in for accurate speed, okay I can except that but there are others that can so...
Dgad who actually owns a TW BN table has mentioned in his own postings above he did along with what he hears, did you take the time to read. Syntax says he can and has described what he hears, I also do while using my TW BK so what does this mean. Some can and some can't.
I was able to catch some great waves and will do so again, life is good. Hang loose!
|
DEV
You don't the AF1 do you? If you do, insanely envious :-) |
Dear Dev: I'm not questioning what you heard on that TW but only that you could be more specific about, less subjective and more objective. Tha's all.
I asked:
++++ " is so bad that has not a single performance virtue?, if from your point of view it has some virtues: why did not mentioned?, could you? " +++++
with no comments from you.
Certainly I don't want to buy a TW to confirm your posts, I don't need an additional TT. About MS TTs I don't go there ( with my unit ) to rebuild it and I'm not doing it mainly because by its roots/design is a faulty one. I prefer to have a non-faulty design and try to improve it, but this is me.
Anyway, go a head.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul, You tend to use the term "distortion" to describe any factor that results in a deviation from perfect reproduction (whatever that is, and sadly it is often subjective) of what you perceive to be in the grooves. In that sense, I agree that electronics that distort and distortion due to tt speed aberrations could be lumped. All I am saying is that the two are qualitatively very different. They will be perceived differently. If you have perfect electronics, you will still hear the tt distortions. If you have a perfect turntable (in terms of speed accuracy) then you will still hear imperfect electronics. The two "distortions" are of a very different kind with respect to one another. This is why I wrote that one has nothing to do with the other. By now, we know how you feel about tubes. I don't think your analogy between distortions due to electronics and distortions caused by tt speed aberration is a very good one, for reasons just stated. |
Syntax, you wrote "...you find for everything a matching example. May I tell you a little story, it is a bit different, but in a way comparable."
Are you inferring that SME provides turntables with higher speed accuracy performance to professional musicians and conductors only? That is how I interpret your analogy to the BMW M5 reviewer and the club owners after they complained about performance.
Could you clarify your point? |
What is the speed accuracy of reel to reel please? Does anyone know.
Wasn't much of vinyl originally sourced as such? |
Dear Lewm: I agree with you that there are different kind of distortions. My " term " distortion means any kind of distortion it does not matters the distortion's source.
Now, how is that some persons is " suffering/supporting " distortions on electronics ( heavy ones. ) and not aware off and when a TT has tiny deviation from perfect speed then is aware of it and blame the item mainly because of that when ( for sure ) their past TTs had tiny deviations too especially if were BD ones.
I'm trying to figure what additional information was not disclosed yet on that TW subject that made that kind of " reaction " on the non-perfect speed.
The only thing clear to me is that the manufactturer did not take seriously and in deep the Dev complaints because if I was that TT manufacturer and due the TT high price I think that with or with out reason a customer deserve ( any customer ) a lot better treatment as can be: change the " evil item " for a new unit and that's all. Big mistake not did it because that manufacturer is losting a lot more through the Agon threads that changed that item.
Anyway, you have the idea ( I think? ).
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dgad: Very good point because some of us already posted here about the anomalies/unaccuracies that happen during the recording whole process till we have the LP on each one hands. Yes, it's from the tape where the grooves information comes and certainly does not meets that " perfect speed " we are asking for.
That is part of the whole analog imperfect medium.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Are you inferring that SME provides turntables with higher speed accuracy performance to professional musicians and conductors only? That is how I interpret your analogy to the BMW M5 reviewer and the club owners after they complained about performance. It was just an example that you will find in every situation of real life something comparable like this discussion and that the sentence "...lots of happy owners" isn't worth the time to read. It may sound good, but it can be a lie also. So what.... I don't care about SME, Raven, Seiki, Kuzma, Clearaudio or whatever someone owns, I also know musicians who are very happy with a 1k Kenwood Stereo System, some get a lot of emotion when they hear a performance via their iPod and earplugs.... I believe in brain, the ability to do something right...but that's me Timeline The advantage from that unit is mainly, the user can adjust the speed with the VTF, means, a real time job when the record is played. Most other "adjustments" are only useable without VTF, that means, in real life it is a nice toy, but worth nothing. I bought the Timeline as a tool to optimize my System, first, when I had the Basis Debut, that table was stable, no drift, the way it should be, same with Kuzma Reference and even the 20 year old Seiki is stable like a rock (MY Seiki ....) both speeds, 33 /45 ...I noticed very fast that this timeline will destroy a lot of dreams and it does. I gave it to a few audiophiles and there we discovered how many units can't be adjusted properly, independent from price...was new to me also... I haven't checked it with a Brinkmann, the owner I know sold it some time ago, but not based on Timeline...but I think Steve from SOS tried one with TL and it is ok... Ah, before I forget, the main question from all who hate that thing: "Is there an audible difference between a shifting red light and a stable red light behind the Turntable?" Answer: "It depends.... :-) but yes, normally you can hear it at once, soundstage is deeper, focus is better, transients are more clear....simply less smeared notes. Modern analog is mainly done cheap. Profit counts...here you can see it :-) But that has nothing to do with bearing, isolation, energy transfer, unleveled armoards ... That is too much I think. There are a lot of customers out there who prefer to believe instead to control what they buy. I have no problem with that, the "manufacturers" needs them...see the car story and I think, you will find something comparable in coffee machines, fridges, Tonearms and so on... But shooting the messenger is an accepted solution here :-) In the next Raven thread it will be repeated again and again... this ---> I love my unit...and happy ownership... and the nice guy /bad guy story.... Banana products have the ability to mature at customers place, that is part of tweaking or competence? Btw. R2R machines were made in a time where engineers did the thinking, probably that is the reason why they sound so different compared to a lot of Turntables? |
Raul, I take your point.
Syntax, Another story. I have a neighbor with a different brand of megabuck belt-drive turntable. I will not mention it, because I do think it is a very good sounding high quality product. I was in his listening room when he first tested it with his newly purchased Timeline. As we watched the red dot move steadily across the curtain behind his turntable, he leaped to his feet to adjust the speed controller. This only momentarily worked to halt the inexorable progress of the red dot. Two minutes later, he was on his feet again, and then again and again. (It would have been funny, if the turntable cost $100.) As I could hear no obvious problem due to speed aberration, I suggested that he should just ignore the Timeline so we could listen to music. However, the red dot is very distracting. A week or two later, he reported to me that the maker of his turntable tested the motor controller that is sold along with the table and reported it to be "defective". He also reported that the problem was now "fixed". The story does not end there, needless to say. "Fixed" is a relative term. The Timeline has created some havoc at the elite level among those suffering from audiophilia nervosa. Still, it does tell us "something". I would posit that if a turntable is speed stable enough to look good with the KAB strobe (the most accurate of the strobes because of its battery power), while the stylus is down on the LP, then it is probably "good enough".
So far as I know, R2R machines have their issues with wow and flutter, too. As most know, the famous jazz album, Kind of Blue, with the Miles Davis Quintet, has survived in its popularity for many decades despite the fact that it was mastered from an off-speed tape recording. As a devotee, I am so used to the pitch and tempo of the original that I find the recent release of the corrected speed version to be not nearly as involving. I daresay the original owes some of its staying power to the "dark" feel of the music, imparted by the speed inaccuracy of a tape recorder. |
Syntax, I hope it is not a case of because you see it so you hear it! Your hearing must be incredible that you can hear with more precision than Kab strobe. I don't know if that is a gift or a curse. I assume that before Timeline came, you have to always adjust speed by ears then as no strobe would be good enough for you. I shall yield to your hearing ability.
Wait but you say that "it was new to you as well" after you receive Timeline that some turntables cannot hold accurate speed! Is that means that you actually did not know or could not hear that before but suddenly Timeline give you ability to hear better?
I understand your BMW story now, I better talk to Sutherland because I have been cheated. |
I agree with Syntax that the way to perceive speed instabilities is to hear for low level sounds and ambience. Speed stable tables have better air, ambience, soundstage depth, clarity, dynamics and more defined bass. Atmasphere has said similar things.
Andrew |
I had an interesting experience years ago - when calibrating a Townsend power supply ( checking internal voltages, bias etc ) the sound opened up considerably. Smoother, more natural, much larger sound stage. There was no measurable change in speed. The improved sound was purely down to running the power supply at the correct voltages internally - changes of about 0.1-0.3 of a volt.
The change in sound was like going from an Audio Technica $500 MC to a Koetsu Black - it was not subtle. |
Syntax, you did not answer my question. I will ask it one last time. Are you saying that SME supplies more accurate turntables to professional musicians and conductors (and reviewers) than they do to the general public? Like you implied with your story about BMW giving testers faster cars?
I agree with you that turntable speed should be checked with the stylus in a rotating grove (with VTF in your terms). Are you aware that the KAB strobe allows for this, at least for about an inch at the outside of the LP? The KAB may not be as accurate as the Timeline, but it does allow for one to use his own record clamp, record weight, neither, and different thickness LPs while providing the same result. According to a post above, the Timeline does not offer this flexibility.
BTW, I watched Steve at SOS test a Brinkmann Bardo turntable with his Timeline. You are again mistaken. It passed the test (by quick visual inspection with no markings) only over a 5-10 second period when the red dot fell on a piece of paper hand held about 12" from the Timeline. When the paper held in place for the test was removed, the DIRECT DRIVE Bardo failed the test after a few seconds because the red dot was suddenly hitting the wall which was now about four feet away. The dot drifted.
Steve and I did the same test on my turntable which at the time was a BELT DRIVE design and it did better than the DD Bardo, but it was still not perfect. My table had no speed adjustment which was one reason I sold it for a table which is adjustable. My new BD table does now hold speed according to the KAB while an LP is playing at both 33 and 45 RPM. Perhaps it would fail the Timeline. I have not tried it. I do think the timeline is heavier than my record clamp, so that might effect results. Also I don't know which record thickness I should use for the Timeline test.
I don't understand your point about an iPod. Of course people enjoy the device with earbuds and get emotional satisfaction. That is not our subject here. Our subject here is speed accuracy and the ability of orchestra conductors (or BMW M5 drivers) getting accurate performance numbers. Great conductors have some of the best ears around. And they can hear accurate pitch. I have seen them during rehearsals talk to individual musicians about this. If they say that their belt drive turntables have accurate pitch, I tend to believe them. They may also enjoy MP3 files in earbuds on an iPad, just like the kid down the street does. That does not meant the iPad is reproducing anything accurately.
I also agree with Syntax and Atmasphere that the way to hear speed instabilities is to listen for low level sounds and ambience. That is an excellent observation and quite audible. |
Peterayer, you also brought up a good point about moving back the distance of a surface to monitor Timeline's blinking light. The further back the distance, the more finely you can calibrate the speed as it will let you see the slight deviation in speed even more.
I don't know when you will reach the threshold where you will not hear or appreciate the difference.
It is a great tool for anyone who is compulsive obsessive though because the more you play with it, the more you will find way to acheive that steady blinking light. At one stage, because of significant difference in HRX center weight and Timeline weight, I figure out that I could get more accurate reading if I stick Timeline on top of HRX clamp with blutac to do the reading as the difference when I actually playing will only be the weight of Timeline itself rather than HRX weight minored Timeline weight which would be higher. All the while measuring it, I was praying that Timeline would not fly off and break my cartridge.
At the end, I felt better that I acheived closer ideal speed but did I really hear anything differently, not really!
If I eyeball the amount of drift by TW vs drift on Micro Seiki with 200g records or without 200g records (equal to approximate weight with and without Timeline on platter), they are actually quite close.
May be TW actually will hold more accurate speed than Micro Seiki if I adjust Micro Seiki to the exact speed with Timeline and not using Timeline or any clamp. Who knows...
Timeline is fun and it gives me almost infinite ways for me to be more obsessive about getting the ideal speed long after it passes my audible threshold.
At the end of the day, I just have to find the good enough spot that is reasonable so I stop wasting time fidgeting with toy and spend more time listening to music.
No disagreement about speed stability issue either but I think that is a different story. |
Dear Syntax,
Are you suggesting then that Timeline is more successful with DD than BD?
If so doesnt surprise me.
If I recall the interviews correctly, TWs original design brief was to make a BD almost as accurate as DD?
Im not sure if he was proposing he could match it precisely
but the objective was to try
..?
I enjoyed your BMW tale and it illustrates the depths of depravity which even major companies stoop to.
In this case 15% underpowered was mis-selling and grounds for a full refund or new engine.
(Mind you, as insurance I would always read various magazine's lab tests to ensure that the manuf meets the requirement - and I did this with my T/T...)
Unfortunately small hi-fi manufacturers are not BMW, who can afford to spend hundreds of millions of Euro/$$$ on design & development for a single engine alone!
I dont need to list these small manufacturers, Im sure you know who they all are.
Small hi-fi manufacturers are mostly reputable, usually back ordered for 6-12 months and invariably do their best to support their customers despite the workload and financial strain (as witnessed by unlimited testimonials in the Forums).
These people are the heart & soul of the Audio industry. Much of what they do is a labour of love rather than money. The WWW being such a powerful tool, it wouldnt take much of a push to put these guys out of business.
So how small a sin does such a manufacturer need to commit to justify the ultimate punishment? 15%....0.01%?....Less?
For sure, if customers need to be warned of a major infraction such as BMW committed then perhaps the Internet is the ideal place.
Its unlikely to put those guys out of business any time soon.
Kind regards
. |
Dear Pani,
Regarding your experiences with timing errors and PRat? There is another, less obvious, explanation.
If one loudspeaker displays a few db channel imbalance allied to frequency irregularities, e.g. due to the speaker-room relationship, it can not only affect timing but also tunefulness and the ability to follow the musical flow.
Imagine a gradient from "sheer chaos" to "slight confusion" depending on how severe a frequency/amplitude imbalance might be in the average system?
I use electrostatic dipolar speakers and one side of my room is naturally weak by a few db or so. I routinely spend the first 15 mins of each session (whether CD or LP) rebalancing and tuning the rooms absorbance to get the weak side to match.
Once this happens, the magic flows and order is restored.
So depending on what type of speakers you use and what kind of drive units exist within, with a poorly optimised room I would think it possible one may experience this kind of disorientation.
It shows how easily the musical balance can be upset.
Its a minor inconvenience, but the turntable motor unit and tonearm were NOT the villains. (At least in my case)
Please note that the room is not necessarily symmetrical to achieve balance. No room is capable of absolute symmetry anyway, even if it looks symmetrical.
Walls/floors/ceilings can be irregular/odd-angled and nothing will ever change that, however much we wish to believe they are perfectly parallel and flat.
Most importantly its conceivable that any signal imbalance within source LP/cartridge/electronics/speakers could, perhaps(?), combine to aggravate this situation.
Sadly, its not the first answer that springs to mind when we look for explanations.
Kind regards
.. |
This thread long ago entered what Freud called the narcissism of minor differences, in which the similarities between individuals or social groups foster the exaggeration of tiny distinctions in order to generate or validate uniqueness or superiority. It's rather silly, really, but wars have been fought over it. |
similarities between individuals or social groups foster the exaggeration of tiny distinctions in order to generate or validate uniqueness or superiority. Well said Dr. F and most appropriately quoted, Wrm57. I think all 'philes should paste it on their mirror to read each morning and evening while brushing teeth. |
Are you suggesting then that Timeline is more successful with DD than BD? I think it depends on the Designer. Based on that discussion I remembered an audiophile buddy with a Platine Verdier Turntable. The last time I did visit him I asked about his speed alignment...lots of Verdier owners think about external motors, the kind of string, the material of it, the length, running the motor 24/7/365 and so on....he did nothing :-), except buying a Vibraplane. Anyway, I made a date for a alignment Party packed some stuff, Digital Gauge, Timeline, Camera, Carts and we started first with listening a record without doing any corrections.. and we also made some cartridge rolling ... ... we found another turntable Design which has a rock solid red dot on the wall and we also were able to hear differences with several carts :-) |
Nice photo of the Verdier. My table is also on a Vibraplane. When I add a record clamp as heavy as the Timline, the Vibraplane moves slightly. How does the thread drive on that Verdier react if the table and platter are on the Vibraplane while the motor is stationary on a different platform? Would it not be better to have the motor and platter on the same isolated platform? Does this alter the speed? |
Dear Peterayer,
I have no experience with the Vibraplane. But what I learned by my experiments with Copulare, HRS and Micro Seiki platforms it is better to isolate drive and motor on different platforms. If you are using a flywheel cconfiguration you may end up with three platforms completely separated from each other. |
Moonglum
Probably the most sensible post on Agon or anywhere else I've read in a long while. It would do good for many of us opionated, egotistical audiophiles to realise the harm that we can easily cause a small enterprise with our superiority complex. Don't like a product , don't buy it....no need to run down what you don't like....
Have a great weekend |
Many thanks Sunnyboy... :) :)
Had a superb extended vinyl session on Friday and attended "Record Store Day" yesterday.:D |
Dear Syntax,
I appreciate your kind feedback. Clearly you are interested in increasing knowledge and capability. That was a Lyra "gorefest" you had on display there(!)
This Thread has given me pause for thought even in my comparisons of turntable mats. Although I always accurately compensate for VTA and therefore ensured the VTF was consistent, I've never adjusted for slight differences in WEIGHT, however marginal they might be.
It also triggers thoughts of -
- Different vinyl weights effect on speed.
- Mat drag or lack of it. (Some mats have shiny low friction surfaces. Not using a clamp for each may level the playing field but disadvantages certain mats.)
- Need for a clamp or not, and its weight.
- My Keystrobe disc's weight may encouraged wrong active setting.
The Au strobe disc I use is similar to a double-sided etched printed circuit, but it is quite a heavy material. Because it is label sized it can be easily used while playing the LP entirely. I don't think a high torque motor arrangement is likely to worry too much. I would have reservations about designs that use minimal torque (that need manual startup assist) and then ride the borderline of the limits of tolerance? :(
Keystrobe link here :
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KeyStrobe-au-Gold-disc-KeyStrobe-duo-strobe-light-/281090859277?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item417252210d |
hmm - I was wondering what Ebm wants to tell us:
his four short remarks in this thread are:
- TW Acoustic best sonding best made
- If you have an ax to grind there are many happy TW ACUSTIC owners out there
- Keep on trucking mr wonderful we know your turntable is the best on the planet!!
- Dev if its boring why answer after all you know everything
Ebm, do you see how you are speaking about yourself!? while not giving any substantial argument in the thread discussion. |
A question for all TW owners.
I am intrigued by those of you using a battery with the TW.
Is it possible to get some information. I would like to know the kind of load the platter system places on the motor/s.
With NO tonerarm engaged from the time u shut the power off to the time the platter stops revolving.
How long does the platter spin for before coming to a complete stop?
Using one, two and three motors.
Much appreciated.... |
Thuchan,Wow im now crying like i really care. |
SYMPOSIUM STEALTH STAND 24WX19D LIST $1400.00 SELL $700.00 8/10.Perfect for TW or any turntable best isolation at a great price. |
CT0517, I only have one motor. It takes around 13-15s for the platter to come to a complete stop when I timed mine (Raven AC-1 with BN battery supply) |
Thuchan ,
I would love some further explanation of how isolating the motor and turntable separately be off benefit. I am assuming motor vibrations.
Then your comment seems to fly in the face of Syntax's major complaints regarding speed accuracy or even the need to use a timeline.
There is no way vibration is action can be accomplished by a perfectly inert platform. It just isn't isolation then. Then the motor and turntable being Independant of each other would have increased wow & flutter.
Furthermore, if your experience is based on listening, then isn't isolation more important than speed stability.
This is all just conjecture, but based on your statement I don't find another path of logic. |
EBN
The Symposium Ultra provides no isolation properties. It dissipates some energy at some resonant frequency, but isolates absolutely nothing.
I own an Ultra Platform and it is a nice footer, however I do not use it under my TW table as it does nothing to help isolate.
Cheers |
Dgad,
yes, you`re right it blocks motor vibrations if implemented properly.
This no argument against speed control or not using the Timeline. It is an additional measurement improving the sound. Believe me I worked and experimented a lot on vibration issues. Also the original air dampened Micro base for my SX 8000 II comprises two separated top-bases , one for the motor, one for the drive. To put the exact pressure on the belt or string you can move them closer by a very smart button device on the side of the heavy base. A very elegant and effective solution! |
My concern with motor on one air isolation platform and the turntable on another and perhaps a flywheel on a third is that one air platform may slightly change in height relative to the others and this would effect belt/thread level and tension which in turn would effect speed accuracy.
It is a similar argument that the proponents of a closed/rigid system use for a fixed arm mount and platter bearing so that the relationship between the two never changes, so alignment never changes.
In the SME case, the arm and platter are fixed, the motor is on a different and isolated level, presumably for vibration isolation. So perhaps SME has prioritized the importance of one over the other. |
Dear Peterayer,
you concern is absolutely okay. You need to level all three platforms in a way that they meet exactely the height you need. I do this with Copulare Coral lifters under the platforms by which you can adjust pretty fine turning the lifter. Just try it - you will not believe what you heard before!
In the SME case you described everything is done well. |
Symposium works wonderful in my system i have concrete over parquet floors with cinder block walls on a 200lbs Rix Rax. Tally Ho!! |
Suteetat
CT0517, I only have one motor. It takes around 13-15s for the platter to come to a complete stop when I timed mine (Raven AC-1 with BN battery supply) Thanks for that info Suteetat. Is anyone running two motors or three ? Does the 13 -15 seconds elapsed time of a single motor (platter to a complete stop from 33 1/3) change when an additional motor is added? Can anyone supply this data? I will provide some comparisons that I think are interesting and relevant especially if using battery. Thanks |
If a 160 pds Vibraplane with another 100+ pds tt slides away putting additional 0.2 pds on it, you have a serious problem with your total setup. Maybe that's also the reason why 200g records sound different from 180grs ;) |
This may end up competing with Raul's thread for longest on the website, but it also competes with the now defunct TV series, "Seinfeld", in that the subject is "nothing".
Thuchan, I have to disagree with you. At least in theory it should not be best to place the motor drive of a belt drive system on a completely separate support from that of the turntable itself. This is a cardinal sin of bad belt-drive turntable design. (The commercial product analog is to use a suspended chassis bearing the platter and tonearm whilst the motor drive is fixed to the inert plinth.) This results in some of the most obvious "wow" that I've ever heard in vinyl reproduction. The original AR turntable was guilty of that infraction, as were the early SOTA turntables. Especially, to put the turntable on a Vibraplane or similar device and the motor on an inert shelf system is asking for trouble. |
Heradot, I doubt that any of the 260 lb Vibraplanes are sliding away with the addition of a record on the platter. My point is that because the Vibraplanes (and other air suspension systems) need a compressor to remain inflated in the long term means that at some interval, the air bladders need to be filled up again slightly. My compressor goes on for about 5 seconds every day or two. I can't hear it so it does not matter. It is supplying three Vibraplanes with 270 on each unit so there is a lot of pressure and air does escape slightly.
Because the unit needs air occasionally, it is changing very slightly in height or level or both. That is why it has automatic self-leveling. It follows that any part of the turntable system (motor, flywheel etc) should not be located on a different surface if absolute control of the dimensions within the system are to be maintained.
Perhaps this is only theoretical because it may not be heard, but then we are also talking about the accuracy of the Timeline vs the KAB and other devices. To remain consistent, if one argues for the Timeline, he should also argue for a fixed/closed motor pulley to platter distance, spindle to pivot distance etc, etc. How can it be otherwise?
As far as the thread is concerned, all of the Brinkman and TW Acustic BD tables I have heard and seen maintain this fixed motor to platter distance because they are placed on a common platform. |
Peterayer,
Thank you for explaining in more detail. This thread isn't making too much sense. Too many contradictions.
I am surprised you needed isolation for your SME. I thought the O rings would do the trick. But when I think about it, it makes sense. Nothing is as god as a separate platform. The first time I "heard" my Raven was after isolating it. Even concrete floors make standing waves.
I just don't believe any turntable can be judged until isolated. I hunk the best solution is a singular isolation system for the entire analogu system, and maybe Independant platforms to absorb energy on top of the isolation platform separating the motor and turntable. Maybe even the Tonearms if you want to be obsessive. I am just happy so don't worry too much. I just need better vinyl or really the Audio Desk system so I can get more listening time. |
Dgad, There are two other things that could account for the improvement to the already good isolation of the O rings on the SME. First, the table is sitting on a different surface now. I tried it briefly on the wood top shelf of my DIY rack. Not it is on 286 lbs of steel and so the energy is draining down into a larger mass. Second, the motor controller is now isolated on the steel and Vibraplane from floor born vibrations.. Both contribute to the improvement. |
"This is a cardinal sin of bad belt-drive turntable design. (The commercial product analog is to use a suspended chassis bearing the platter and tonearm whilst the motor drive is fixed to the inert plinth.) This results in some of the most obvious "wow" that I've ever heard in vinyl reproduction. The original AR turntable was guilty of that infraction, as were the early SOTA turntables. Especially, to put the turntable on a Vibraplane or similar device and the motor on an inert shelf system is asking for trouble."
Good point Lew...
My previous T/T (an LP12) was prone to a phenomenon some referred to as "breathing". (Note this could also be related to platter balance issues)
If you positioned your eyes level with the platter and checked the top plate clearance you could see the platter edge/clearance oscillate due to the pull of the belt.
The turntable sounded very musical despite this effect :)
Kind regards..... |
Ct0157
FWIW my TW AC with BN PSU and 3 motor unit takes 8 seconds for the platter to come to a complete halt after pressing the stop button and with the tone arm at rest |
Cto157
My Raven AC with 3 motors. Two at the side and one at the back takes 6.7 seconds to stop based on 4 samples.
Cheers |
Isolation is very important with TTs. I have a Kuzma XL4, the platter is 22Kg. total weight over 100Kg with 2 arm towers. It sits on a 110kg sandwich of slate and marble, then on an an industrial acoustic filter material ( filters 5-8HZ up) of about 6cm thick. Then on a sprung table.
There is no breakthrough when medium output (0.5) cartridge sits on a stationary record with my arc ref 2 on low (51db, my normal setting) gain volume on max. I can play blank grooves on max (140 on pre) no feedback. Loud listening level is 80-95 on pre.
The TT sounds cleaner and background is quieter, tremendous dynamics, with this set up. |
