I've heard the Bardo, La Grange and all of the TW tables. Unfortunately, none of the systems were the same so there were no direct comparisons. From those experiences, I can't really say which turntable is best. What I can say is that I preferred the whole system that the La Grange was in by quite a bit. That system was the least colored to my ears and sounded really good. The Brinkmann tables were also all on active Vibraplanes for isolation. |
Syntax does take very good photographs, does post very funny audio cartoons and gave me some great advice about Vibraplane isolation under amplifiers.
Now, back to Brinkmann and TW Acustic. I'm going to the NYC Audio Show this weekend. Last year both Brinkmann and TW were showing turntables. I thought each sounded pretty good under the conditions at the Waldorf. Both rooms also played lots of great music on LP and were always crowded. I hope to check out both rooms again this year. |
Those commenting on TW Acustic are a lively bunch. Where are the Brinkmann devotees? And what about the original question? |
Downunder, I am using a Vibraplane under my SUSPENDED SME 30/12 and it makes a very positive improvement. I'm sure it would do the same for UNsuspended turntables like the TW Acustic.
Suteetat, I watched a Timeline demonstration in which the speed was shown to be accurate when the Timeline red dot was on the wall 12" behind the table. As soon as the dot was moved to a surface four feet away, it was no longer accurate. When we discuss the Timeline, I strongly feel that some standard conditions for using the device are agreed upon and followed. I can't afford the Timeline, so I use a KAB strobe disk.
Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. I just think that is an interesting observation. |
Syntax, you wrote "...you find for everything a matching example. May I tell you a little story, it is a bit different, but in a way comparable."
Are you inferring that SME provides turntables with higher speed accuracy performance to professional musicians and conductors only? That is how I interpret your analogy to the BMW M5 reviewer and the club owners after they complained about performance.
Could you clarify your point? |
Syntax, you did not answer my question. I will ask it one last time. Are you saying that SME supplies more accurate turntables to professional musicians and conductors (and reviewers) than they do to the general public? Like you implied with your story about BMW giving testers faster cars?
I agree with you that turntable speed should be checked with the stylus in a rotating grove (with VTF in your terms). Are you aware that the KAB strobe allows for this, at least for about an inch at the outside of the LP? The KAB may not be as accurate as the Timeline, but it does allow for one to use his own record clamp, record weight, neither, and different thickness LPs while providing the same result. According to a post above, the Timeline does not offer this flexibility.
BTW, I watched Steve at SOS test a Brinkmann Bardo turntable with his Timeline. You are again mistaken. It passed the test (by quick visual inspection with no markings) only over a 5-10 second period when the red dot fell on a piece of paper hand held about 12" from the Timeline. When the paper held in place for the test was removed, the DIRECT DRIVE Bardo failed the test after a few seconds because the red dot was suddenly hitting the wall which was now about four feet away. The dot drifted.
Steve and I did the same test on my turntable which at the time was a BELT DRIVE design and it did better than the DD Bardo, but it was still not perfect. My table had no speed adjustment which was one reason I sold it for a table which is adjustable. My new BD table does now hold speed according to the KAB while an LP is playing at both 33 and 45 RPM. Perhaps it would fail the Timeline. I have not tried it. I do think the timeline is heavier than my record clamp, so that might effect results. Also I don't know which record thickness I should use for the Timeline test.
I don't understand your point about an iPod. Of course people enjoy the device with earbuds and get emotional satisfaction. That is not our subject here. Our subject here is speed accuracy and the ability of orchestra conductors (or BMW M5 drivers) getting accurate performance numbers. Great conductors have some of the best ears around. And they can hear accurate pitch. I have seen them during rehearsals talk to individual musicians about this. If they say that their belt drive turntables have accurate pitch, I tend to believe them. They may also enjoy MP3 files in earbuds on an iPad, just like the kid down the street does. That does not meant the iPad is reproducing anything accurately.
I also agree with Syntax and Atmasphere that the way to hear speed instabilities is to listen for low level sounds and ambience. That is an excellent observation and quite audible. |
My concern with motor on one air isolation platform and the turntable on another and perhaps a flywheel on a third is that one air platform may slightly change in height relative to the others and this would effect belt/thread level and tension which in turn would effect speed accuracy.
It is a similar argument that the proponents of a closed/rigid system use for a fixed arm mount and platter bearing so that the relationship between the two never changes, so alignment never changes.
In the SME case, the arm and platter are fixed, the motor is on a different and isolated level, presumably for vibration isolation. So perhaps SME has prioritized the importance of one over the other. |
Nice photo of the Verdier. My table is also on a Vibraplane. When I add a record clamp as heavy as the Timline, the Vibraplane moves slightly. How does the thread drive on that Verdier react if the table and platter are on the Vibraplane while the motor is stationary on a different platform? Would it not be better to have the motor and platter on the same isolated platform? Does this alter the speed? |
Heradot, I doubt that any of the 260 lb Vibraplanes are sliding away with the addition of a record on the platter. My point is that because the Vibraplanes (and other air suspension systems) need a compressor to remain inflated in the long term means that at some interval, the air bladders need to be filled up again slightly. My compressor goes on for about 5 seconds every day or two. I can't hear it so it does not matter. It is supplying three Vibraplanes with 270 on each unit so there is a lot of pressure and air does escape slightly.
Because the unit needs air occasionally, it is changing very slightly in height or level or both. That is why it has automatic self-leveling. It follows that any part of the turntable system (motor, flywheel etc) should not be located on a different surface if absolute control of the dimensions within the system are to be maintained.
Perhaps this is only theoretical because it may not be heard, but then we are also talking about the accuracy of the Timeline vs the KAB and other devices. To remain consistent, if one argues for the Timeline, he should also argue for a fixed/closed motor pulley to platter distance, spindle to pivot distance etc, etc. How can it be otherwise?
As far as the thread is concerned, all of the Brinkman and TW Acustic BD tables I have heard and seen maintain this fixed motor to platter distance because they are placed on a common platform. |
Dgad, There are two other things that could account for the improvement to the already good isolation of the O rings on the SME. First, the table is sitting on a different surface now. I tried it briefly on the wood top shelf of my DIY rack. Not it is on 286 lbs of steel and so the energy is draining down into a larger mass. Second, the motor controller is now isolated on the steel and Vibraplane from floor born vibrations.. Both contribute to the improvement. |
