Brinkmann vs TW Acustic
Here is some useful information, specially about Raven Turntable info Brinkmann is very new in USA I think, there won't be direct comparisons, when you have the chance to listen to one or the other, use a Timeline Strobe, that one is always good for some surprises ... |
Hi Iaxelrod, the Seiki has nothing to do with your question. The link has some answers about Raven Turntable from Users. Maybe it is helpful for your decision. Just an additional info. But when you don't want to tweak your Turntable all day long to get the best out of it, avoid Raven and go for Brinkmann. The answers are in this thread, too. |
No TW Turntable is neutral sounding. Based on some design flaws a lot of internal influences are reflected into the tracking process of any cartridge used. These colorations are politely ignored from all users, instead they attack those who don't share their opinion or even worse, try to "educate" them. In a way it is sad because much more clever designs are denied and the so-called "recommendations" aren't such, it is simply a owner's opinion to keep 2.hand pricing high. The Brinkmann is also not among those turntables which show design solutions which push the sonic curtain but it is a solid made unit. Sonically you will find 20 others out there which will show more or less same sonic results for much less money. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely don't care what someone owns, wants to buy or dreams about. But when the mediocre is pushed to something outstanding then this is a slap into the face of all those who do something better. Linn LP12 is also a mediocre Design, but it is probably the most successful Turntable ever made. So, Listeners who understand what they hear, are a minority. One man's ceiling is another man's floor ... |
There are many happy TW ACUSTIC owners out there Yes. The world is good. I am whining. Don't forget, also thousands of happy Linn LP12 owners, thousands of Rega Turntable owners, hundreds out there who think that Garrard/Thorens/Dual/Bang & Olufsen is the next best after sliced bread. I am not up to date with Mexican/Bolivian or Afrikan Designs, maybe there are one or two happy owners, too...you find happy owners of everything everywhere. Also for Brinkmann of course :-) |
...he's opinionated.. No, I am not, but my ability to analyze something is pretty good I believe he's in the business No, I am not. I am a regular customer ...a personal axe to grind against TW No, absolutely not. It is only about the ability about a Product. Some out there are ok, some are nice, some are black.... he is rude as well Normally I am a very well educated young man with excellent manners what other told me. But when you have an example, please show it. Syntax please suck wind JERK!!! I am sorry that my logic answer to yours which showed more than the usual 2 words from you creates such a reaction. When I do suicide then it is based on your mean comment :-) |
Thr posting from Dev will be ignored as usual. In the next Raven Thread all the Fanboys will be back again with their "recommendations". I think, some have absolutely no idea about turntable design and blubber something without knowing anything... rpm 33.333334 or 33.333333 when the Timeline drifts the difference is MUCH higher... lousy Pulleys...none of you seems to have an idea what that means ... internal damping ..also no idea from all of you except Dev ... belt quality...and so on and on and on.... I listened to a Dealer Demo with a very expensive TW table (BN or something I forgot), the TW Arm, the TW electronics and very expensive Cessaro Horns, I asked for Belafonte at Carnegie, Matilda I was amazed that a lot of the higher tones, frequencies, echoes, roominformation was reduced and pale. And different from timing...Far away from what is possible based on that recording. But the owners told me how great it is....I accepted that and never looked back. But probably I will buy such a Turntable for my mother. She is 80+ and needs something for her 20 records, the unit is heavy enough to stay stable onto a table ... |
I find funny when I read from some of you suggesting these forums are free to communicate your thought's, REALLY? A quote from William Blake (1757-1827) which passed the test of time: "When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do". Well, normally a discussion is about a product or its abilities. The majority of TW owners above avoid that, instead they try to guide every discussion away from the product towards a - non existing - Personal conflict with whoever ... |
Dev, sorry on you know everything,but you are totally clueless on how to set up T W ACUSTIC turntable.TW does not need to give you a tour as you have nothing good to say on a wonderful table Maybe he missed the most important Detail? The Ultimate Set Up Manual ? Bottom, right corner ... |
I have seen some audiophiles go complete circles in TT's, finally ending up where they started Good point, I've met a few such owners. But don't judge them, not everyone is really looking for the best possible reproduction, they all say, they do (they need a reason for spending money and that is ok) but they also want something they "like". Be it the color, be it the Design, be it a listing in Stereophile Class A, be it a price the neighbor can't afford, be it a limited Edition...be it the ambition to be a respected Audiophile member because the turntable is 45k and everyone congratulates ... You would have to believe that Dev had heard many other turntables before investing in the Raven brand........from his numerous posts, you can see that he had. I think, everyone of us starts with the same positive feeling, or hope when buying something (no one buys something when he knows before that it is nothing special)...after some time the splitting begins, but that is an individual one, some still like what they have (for whatever reason) and some discover after some time that the unit has some flaws which can disturb more and more (I am one of those, I am not Jesus and of course, my priorities are not shared from everyone. But there is a difference between "don't like it" or "there is definitely something which is done better from other manufacturers"). That is normally a basement for discussions which can show a way for the reader he can use. It is his decision anyway. What happens is they "upgrade" but the cycle of discontent from mismatching and poor set up starts all over again. That is very common to say (the owner is too unexperienced, too stupid, he has 10 left thumbs ) but from my experience in the last 15 years, it is not matching. Except you have a real problematic design like the LP12 with its wood frame, springs etc. but the most units out there are the way they are. Maybe you can win a bit with leveling :-), but not 50% gain in Performance when a turntable is level and running. What sounds bad is normally bad. What sounds wrong is normally wrong. (Same with demos .. room is so bad...mains is so lousy... I heard demos at exhibition shows which were stunning... just an example, I never heard a Mark Levinson demo which made me sit longer than 3 minutes but they sell / sold a lot. So, I am simply not the right customer for it. The difference is probably, that I can say why I don't like it and what kind of electronics can do that better, but that is my opinion. Can be shared or not. It is very, very difficult to go back, to be honest to yourself, saying," oh man, I burned 30k with my whatever". Had this situation 12 years ago when I got an invitation from a record collector and I got a demo I never heard before... and no DIY stuff, no ultra rare units, all with available brands.. but simply with units which were able to mere the curtain... all the hours when driving home I thought about it and to make the story short, I knew, there are only 2 ways: To deny what I heard (would save me a lot of money) or to realize what went on (costing me min. 70K)...I made my decision. I also know an example from an experienced (say, he spent thousands of $$$$) Audiophile, sitting in a top demo and finally he said: "this kind of soundstage is filled with so many information, it does confuse me. I don't like it". Anyway, I think it is a difference to read about design solutions which have some serious flaws (the reader has also 2 choices, he can deny it, or he can check it) or you get these competent 1-Liners from Ebm. Well no. We are Audiophiles, that means, there is always a third option. A Dgad option, always avoiding to talk about a problem, instead to move the discussion in a total different direction (Personal Problems, Hate, nice guy being treated badly, wrong delivered, Set Up made from uncertified Set Up Specialists, not owning the latest version (it is the 8th version from an identical product but there are differences only a few know) and so on and on... Don't get me wrong: I love all 3 versions, but for MY decision I have only one. |
Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. I just think that is an interesting observation. I can't say anything about SME and speed but you find for everything a matching example. May I tell you a little story, it is a bit different, but in a way comparable. A few years ago I was in a group of BMW M5 drivers, some were really fanatic (not me, they were worse), they read the test reports about the car in the car mags (acceleration and so on ). went on the highway in the night and drove all those tests with their own cars... All were slower. Far away from the test specs...They went to their car dealer who said "Hey, we sold now 50 of them and you are the only ones who are critical.." and shut the door. They didn't accept that, they went with their cars on the dyne for a test ride. At 100mph the engine stopped accelerating. there was an internal program in the car software that "knew" that someone wants to know how many HP the engine has (not all wheels rolling). Normally that story was done. But, they went to a Dyno Manufacturer who also delivered BMW / MB / Porsche and they knew the programming :-) Long story short: None of those cars had the HP in reality. They went back to their dealer and said, Buddy, we paid for 408 HP and we got 360, max. speed lacks for 15%...acceleration is 1 s slower.... And don't try to tell us some stories, here are the reports and when you don't believe us, then bring us the M5 which was used in the mags for the tests... Anyway... these guys ALL won, they all got new engines. The other 45 not. |
Are you inferring that SME provides turntables with higher speed accuracy performance to professional musicians and conductors only? That is how I interpret your analogy to the BMW M5 reviewer and the club owners after they complained about performance. It was just an example that you will find in every situation of real life something comparable like this discussion and that the sentence "...lots of happy owners" isn't worth the time to read. It may sound good, but it can be a lie also. So what.... I don't care about SME, Raven, Seiki, Kuzma, Clearaudio or whatever someone owns, I also know musicians who are very happy with a 1k Kenwood Stereo System, some get a lot of emotion when they hear a performance via their iPod and earplugs.... I believe in brain, the ability to do something right...but that's me Timeline The advantage from that unit is mainly, the user can adjust the speed with the VTF, means, a real time job when the record is played. Most other "adjustments" are only useable without VTF, that means, in real life it is a nice toy, but worth nothing. I bought the Timeline as a tool to optimize my System, first, when I had the Basis Debut, that table was stable, no drift, the way it should be, same with Kuzma Reference and even the 20 year old Seiki is stable like a rock (MY Seiki ....) both speeds, 33 /45 ...I noticed very fast that this timeline will destroy a lot of dreams and it does. I gave it to a few audiophiles and there we discovered how many units can't be adjusted properly, independent from price...was new to me also... I haven't checked it with a Brinkmann, the owner I know sold it some time ago, but not based on Timeline...but I think Steve from SOS tried one with TL and it is ok... Ah, before I forget, the main question from all who hate that thing: "Is there an audible difference between a shifting red light and a stable red light behind the Turntable?" Answer: "It depends.... :-) but yes, normally you can hear it at once, soundstage is deeper, focus is better, transients are more clear....simply less smeared notes. Modern analog is mainly done cheap. Profit counts...here you can see it :-) But that has nothing to do with bearing, isolation, energy transfer, unleveled armoards ... That is too much I think. There are a lot of customers out there who prefer to believe instead to control what they buy. I have no problem with that, the "manufacturers" needs them...see the car story and I think, you will find something comparable in coffee machines, fridges, Tonearms and so on... But shooting the messenger is an accepted solution here :-) In the next Raven thread it will be repeated again and again... this ---> I love my unit...and happy ownership... and the nice guy /bad guy story.... Banana products have the ability to mature at customers place, that is part of tweaking or competence? Btw. R2R machines were made in a time where engineers did the thinking, probably that is the reason why they sound so different compared to a lot of Turntables? |
Are you suggesting then that Timeline is more successful with DD than BD? I think it depends on the Designer. Based on that discussion I remembered an audiophile buddy with a Platine Verdier Turntable. The last time I did visit him I asked about his speed alignment...lots of Verdier owners think about external motors, the kind of string, the material of it, the length, running the motor 24/7/365 and so on....he did nothing :-), except buying a Vibraplane. Anyway, I made a date for a alignment Party packed some stuff, Digital Gauge, Timeline, Camera, Carts and we started first with listening a record without doing any corrections.. and we also made some cartridge rolling ... ... we found another turntable Design which has a rock solid red dot on the wall and we also were able to hear differences with several carts :-) |
