Dear Iaxelrod: IMHO as important is the TT and the ones you name it are good performers what you have to check is if both run always at the choosed speed ( 33.33rpm/45rpm) and its speed stability. This IMHO is a factor that could make a difference when we are choosing for a TT.
After that the critical subject is how good is the match between the cartridge and tonearm along the quality performance of the phonolinepreamp that will process the cartridge signal to avoid cartridge signal degradation. Two other subjects that could help you to achieve the best quality performance level the cartridge is abble to shows you are the tonearm mount/arm board and the platter TT mat with out forget the tonearm internal wire headshel wires if any and tonearm/phono IC.
Perhaps the TT decision is the easy one.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Pani: +++++ " we seem to use the word "neutral" far too liberally... " +++++
I think that thr problem is because as with almost any other subject in audio almost all us audiophiles and AHEE members have no refrence/standards have no " common bias " and that's why " neutral " is so diferent on many of us about its grade.
With out that " common bias " it has no sense to speak about something " neutral " when two opinions comes from different " sources ", example: one from a SS based system and the other from a tube based system.
Which could be a neutral reference a neutral standard?, well certainly live music but even here live acoustical music has its own " natural colorations " but these " natural colorations " for me is my neutral standard because I don't know any other reference that can compare against it for that " natural color, " natural agresiveness " so low low distortions, so endless dynamics with the wider frequency range we can attain and with so that " natural power "/precense only live music has.
I think that we can considerer it as a very good alternative as a " common bias " /Refernce for " neutrality " and from here try to make a gradation of neutrality on what we are listening through our each one system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Syntax: +++++ " No TW Turntable is neutral sounding. Based on some design flaws a lot of internal influences are reflected into the tracking process of any cartridge used. " +++++
I think that not only TW but no single TT out there. So IMHO we have not to blame TW for that because there is no single perfect TT out there, all them have its own trade-offs and each one of us will choose the trade-offs that fulfil better our each one targets.
+++++ " But when the mediocre is pushed to something outstanding then this is a slap into the face of all those who do something better. " +++++
which are the standards characteristics for mediocrity and which the standards for excellence? whom certified those standards? you?
+++++ " But when you don't want to tweak your Turntable all day long to get the best out of it, avoid Raven ... " ++++
this statement has no sense to me coming from you a " proudly " owner of a way faulty MS RX TT design that if for you the Raven is a mediocre one for me the MS RX series is not even at mediocrity level but way down/lower steps ( I own that MS TT. ).
The MS RX series you own is a TT that you can't listening with out full tweak all over the TT and even after the tweaks is still a poor performer: the plater TT rings as a bell and is the worst one I know out there, the MS TT has no damping support anywhere not even at its footers everything alter its performance and cartridge performance, the MS is so " stupid " design that the designers choosed to put the four arms boards exactly a top the four non damped footers ( this design characteristic: " has no name ". ) where every single resonance/vibration coming from everywhere is transmited to the tonearm/cartridge every time, the control motor and the parts used in the circuit are made as if was designed for a " children toy " and not for a professional TT and I can go on and on of that poor poor MS RX design you own.
IMHO if this poor MS RX design is your reference IMHO you can't argue or make any single critic against not only the Raven but against any other TT: IMHO MS RX is the worst TT design ever. So what are you talking about with your complaints on the Raven?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dev: The Suteetat post is clear about and as Lewm point out the speed stability has to be in the short time periods during playback.
Now, Dgdad TW works fine on that speed subject and I know that with other owners too. You have a problem there and maybe your unit is faulty for what ever reasons and maybe not a good example to put under scrutiny all TW TTs.
In the other side: which is the TW deviation on the short time?, it is clear that your unit is not achieving 33.3333 rpm but at which speed is running with stability?: 33.34 or 33.29 or 33.4 rpm.
Other subject is that if that out of accuracy speed is mantained or is fluctuating one.
Certainly you are not satisfied with TW and I don't know what you are hearing trough it and I can't know if what you are hearing is because that speed deviaiton or a normal TT trade-offs inside the TW design, because no audio item is perfect.
No, I'm not saying that TT speed accuracy/stability is not important because is a must to have in any TT but IMHO we can't make a fair judge because one unit of hundreds of builded units.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friends: If we take any TT to " disect " it we will find out all its defects/faults and its virtues and if we can go deeper on our research we could find out some other unknow virtues/faults of the item.
Here the unsatisfied TW owners posting no single TT virtue but only its faults.
Why is this?, makes no sense to me not be aware of one TW virtue and post it even that I don't like the item.
In the other side:
+++++ " without knowing anything... rpm 33.333334 or 33.333333 when the Timeline drifts the difference is MUCH higher... lousy Pulleys...none of you seems to have an idea what that means ... internal damping ..also no idea from all of you except Dev ... belt quality...and so on and on and on " +++++
Seems to me that for some of you everything is: before the Timeline and after the Timeline and IMHO this is an error.
To those TT owners where they can change trhough a pitch control the TT speed try to have this experience:
first time in the morning make a tiny/small change on speed turning the pitch TT control and for one week listen to that same speed and at the end of the week ask you if you are unsatisfied or not with what you are listening it.
Then return to the original ( Timeline based. ) speed and after 30 minutes ask your self if you like it more on this way or with that tiny speed change.
You will be surprised on your answer. Please don't try to attack at this moment this " experience/test " but after you did it.
Btw, it is not important if that tiny speed change was for lower or faster speed.
Now, on this speed subject: Lewm pointed out that we don't know if during the LP overall recording process the LP was cutted at 33.3333333 rpm or at 33.33 rpm or what ever so: how any one of us can comes here to say that because a TT did not pass the Timeline test we are hearing something " different " and not only different but something that dislike the more because of that speed deviation?.
I think we can't do it what we can do it is that there is no excuse for a 20K+ TT not fit accurate and stable speed and from this point of view seems to me that the TW is a faulty design because it does not match " perfect speed ".
At that and up TT price level any TT has to be " near perfect " in all main TT characteristics that have influence on the generated sound under any circumstance during playback. We can't ask for less.
Syntax posted: " none of you have an idea what that means " in reference on some TT characterisitcs and that could be true with some of us but we are only customers not TT designers to know everything about. We have to judge n audio item as " listeners ".
Even he does not know everything about and that's why he owns what he owns on all his system items and that's why he is a system " changer " over the time: from SS to tubes and again to SS and the like with his cartridges and tonearms, as I said over his system.
Ebm, don't assume that Syntax knows everything because he pictured in his system two Olympos boxes, money means nothing but kin owledge level, skills and how any one use that knowledge/skills.
Yes, thye TW designers has a land to improve their design but this is true with almost any other audio item. We customers are in " motion " looking always for the best, so we are asking every day for the best for all audio item manufacturers.
Btw, I'm sure of something about TW: if the desig n is so bad as the unsatisfied owners pointed out sooner or latter will disappear from the market if don't fixed before.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Pani: PRAT, well if we take the P for peace that characterisitc IMHO is not a music characteristic. Music live music ina near field is IMHO everything but peace.
I don't know whom " invented " PRAT expression to refer to music sound.
For me and is the way I understand MUSIC live music is a whole experience formed by:
first than all Rythmum, with out that music can't " moves " us can't wake up our deepest " feelings /emotions ". Ryhtmum involve almost all in live music.
Other music main characteristic is the " natural color and its shades " that only music has , this natural color means that music has to be neutral that its colorations are natural and well balanced over the frequency range.
The third main characteristic is that " natural agresiveness " undistorted agresiveness that belongs only to live music.
and last but not less important the: power of music, that power that we can not only hear but feel the same ( in different gradation ) from a drum than from the violin or a triangle. This power of the music where we can know exist only the air between the music and us. This is what gives the music our feeling of " dynamics, transient speed " and the like that's an unbeatable live music characteristic.
That is for me, a simple listener not a musician, MUSIC and that's what I'm asking when I listen to music in a live event that of course we can't achieve in almost any way in a home audio system.
Of course that exist a gradation on those MUSIC characteristic and that's why exist MUSIC with bad ryhtmum or with natural one, that's why exist over colored MUSIC sounds and acurate/non-distorted MUSIC sound.
Yes, instruments makes no music but are a critical factor of what we are hearing. Part of the music natural color comes from there as it comes a part of that rythmum.
MUSIC is a subject very complex, more complex that the analog home experience, that invloves not only the instrument quality, presentation stage/venue, the " firm hand " of the leader group/director and many other factors where maybe the most important part belongs to each one player " skills/emotions " during playbak and obviously we can't diminish our each one " mood " during the listening music session.
Music is an universal language and we have not to have studies of any kind to understand: music. Music is so perfect that it takes by it self the " tools " for any one can understand it.
PRAT or no PRAT has no importance because MUSIC speaks by it self. PRAT is an audiophile denomination.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dev: These are statements you posted through the thread where you stated that " seep accuracy " issue:
" I'm sorry but to me if you own a table and it can't hold an accurate speed it's flawed, no matter what else you do latter really doesn't matter because the speed needs to be accurate. "
" it wasn't just because not being able to produce ACCURATE SPEED.
," have friends whom also own TW AC's and not one can hold an accurate speed using the TimeLine so go figure. "
" any of you guys actually owned and lived with both TW's AC3 and Black Knight tables and used a TimeLine on either to set-up the speed? "
" The controller does not allow fine tuning so one can not get the speed bang on "
" Dgad mentioned his table now is locked in on the 33.3 speed "
" Then you have others that feel one can't hear the difference if the speed is not locked in and try to discredit, for the life of me just makes me laugh. "
" when I was addressing the issue with my controller and not being able to keep an accurate speed and what I was hearing "
all those information came from 8 different posts.
I asked which was value/quantity of the TT speed deviations, example: from 33.333 to 33.37 or to 33.28 rpm or what ever and till now you did not give us an answer. You always talked on non speed accuracy but seems to me with out knowing what we are talking about: how higher was that TW speed deviation, even you don't speak if that deviation was a constant one or if it has short term fluctuations.
IMHO speak of speed inacuracies is not a fact but to know which kind of speed deviaitions we have: this means we need to measure it if not why are you using the Timeline as the tool to state the TW speed accuracy?
I'm not questioning your very high sensitivity to tiny changes on TW speed, good that you have it. What I'm trying to figure is what in a hell you was hearing on your TW TTs because that tiny speed deviations when before you owned the TW TT probably you already had with your other TTs?
Your main subject is: non accurate speed, fine. I posted that there is no single audio item that's perfect and that all audio items have some kind of virtues and some defects. I posted too that you never mentioned not even one TW virtue and my question is:
is so bad that has not a single performance virtue?, if from your point of view it has some virtues: why did not mentioned?, could you?
The other subject is that you put 90% of the TW culprit to that non accurate speed and that could be a little unfair because TT speed accuracy is only one factor/parameter involved on the whole quality performance level, there are " hundred " of factors ( other than speed. ) that could be easily the culprit of your dissatisfaction on what you heard it.
In the other side, you are talking of " accuracy " when your system goes around non-accurate tube technology trhough the system electronics even at phono stage. IMHO you have more unaccuracies there than on that TW speed deviations ( that today we don't know about the " magnitude " you are blamed it. ).
No I don't want to open the tube technology subject and please don't open it: you only can lose with.
Peterayer posted:
" Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. "
yes some one of us could be even more sensitive than musicians/composers and the like of speed deviations and I'm glad to know that you are one of those priviliged audiophiles.
++" In the end as long as you are enjoying what ever it may be that's all that matters " ++++++
Agree with you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Suteetat: This is one of my posts in this thread that not only has to do with speed deviations but on the Timeline:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1365275848&openflup&101&4#101
I would like to know if any one of those " Timweline perfect " TT already try that " experience " I explain in the post.
It is not only for understand that the myth of Timeline ( that a TT must be inside Timeline. ) but to undertsand what you are hearing over time.
I urge you all of you to do it, belieme me it's worth to do it. There is nothing more rewarded that learn, anything but learn. As better information we have as better audio decicions we can take and certainly not because Timeline that's a good toy but IMHO not the one that define which TT is good or not. As I said in the post: this is an error.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: Sorry nto disturb you. IMHO is relevant because Dev is talkind about one critical audio subject: accuracy and things are that he owns tube technology that IMHO is not really accurat Nothing against tubes as you could think, only a " coincidence " and not because SS.
Regrads and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dev: I'm not questioning what you heard on that TW but only that you could be more specific about, less subjective and more objective. Tha's all.
I asked:
++++ " is so bad that has not a single performance virtue?, if from your point of view it has some virtues: why did not mentioned?, could you? " +++++
with no comments from you.
Certainly I don't want to buy a TW to confirm your posts, I don't need an additional TT. About MS TTs I don't go there ( with my unit ) to rebuild it and I'm not doing it mainly because by its roots/design is a faulty one. I prefer to have a non-faulty design and try to improve it, but this is me.
Anyway, go a head.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: I agree with you that there are different kind of distortions. My " term " distortion means any kind of distortion it does not matters the distortion's source.
Now, how is that some persons is " suffering/supporting " distortions on electronics ( heavy ones. ) and not aware off and when a TT has tiny deviation from perfect speed then is aware of it and blame the item mainly because of that when ( for sure ) their past TTs had tiny deviations too especially if were BD ones.
I'm trying to figure what additional information was not disclosed yet on that TW subject that made that kind of " reaction " on the non-perfect speed.
The only thing clear to me is that the manufactturer did not take seriously and in deep the Dev complaints because if I was that TT manufacturer and due the TT high price I think that with or with out reason a customer deserve ( any customer ) a lot better treatment as can be: change the " evil item " for a new unit and that's all. Big mistake not did it because that manufacturer is losting a lot more through the Agon threads that changed that item.
Anyway, you have the idea ( I think? ).
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dgad: Very good point because some of us already posted here about the anomalies/unaccuracies that happen during the recording whole process till we have the LP on each one hands. Yes, it's from the tape where the grooves information comes and certainly does not meets that " perfect speed " we are asking for.
That is part of the whole analog imperfect medium.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dctom: ++++ " Isolation is very important with TTs. " +++
agree, critical subject. We need " absolute " isolation/damp on TT/tonearm/cartridge combination. Seems to me that you are really near that " absolute " isolation/damping.
In other thread I posted:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree with you that if you already losed groove information you just can't recovery and then the main target down there is to recovery all the recorded information in the grooves and this can do it " only " by the cartridge and from here all what you want: from TT mat to tonearm board passing for different steps to damp everywhere the analog rig stopping that feedback Tonywinsc and you touched.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Btw, we need " absolute "/perfect isolation/damping at each step at each link in the whole system audio chain. As better damping as lower distortions we hear and as better quality performance level we can enjoy.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
