Syntax, since you are all knowing, please let us know, is TW motor spinning at 34 rpm, 40 rpm, 30 rpm or what. |
Speed accuracy is always going to be an issue with TW (not speed stability though, that's a different story). Yes,I also find that I could never get TW to be exactly at 33.33333333 whatever resolution Sutherland Timeline will give with me eyeballing it with a piece of graph paper.
The speed is always either a touch too fast or too slow.
I could get my Microseiki SX-777 Air dead on,sure. But exactly what does that mean? If TW can only do 33.338 or 33.33000 or whatever speed instead of 33.33333333...
Can anybody actually tell the difference? Pitch wise, it is not like it is going to be even closed to change A420 into A421 or A419.
Before invention of Sutherland Timeline, you do think that people have been listening to 33.3333333333..... I highly doubt it. Obviously people who were able to enjoy listening to turntable before Sutherland must have serious hearing defect and really know nothing about speed, right? Kab strobe does not even come close when compare to Sutherland Timeline. Strobe on my Micro Seiki SX-777 Air also is not dead on 33.3333333.. when compared to Sutherland.
I have no doubt that Dev hears something that he does not like about TW and that is perfectly fine since there is no such thing as univesally loved or perfect audio equipment. In his previous posts, I always find his comment very fair. However, some other people, I also learn to ignore as well.
PS has anybody ever tried Sutherland Timeline on recording cutting machine? I wonder if those machines will even past the test? Or whatever stamper making machine or whatnots? |
We all know that TW speed is not within tolerance of Timeline but it is certainly well within tolerance of Kab strobe.
So what does that mean? People who are not using Timeline are obviously clueless and do not have proper hearing ability to appreciate good turntable then!
Before Timeline came out, anybody who claims turntable is good obviously have no clue what they are talking about either! |
Dev, I had problem with belt moving up and down on the pulley of my AC1. However that was easily fixed once I adjust the height oh the motor and turntable properly.
I also have Timeline which I used on tw VPI and microseiki . It is not a big issue for me that I could not dial in tw to exactly spot on like my micro seiki.
By my calculation, may be someone want to verify this, a 20 minutes piece of music playing at 33.3333 vs 33.30 , the difference is 1.2s or 2.4s at 33.4 rpm. Now I don't think tw error is even this high. I doubt any musician can play 20 minutes and kept precision to +- 2s in 20 minutes. We all know that studio recordings are all spliced from multiple takes. Even live recordings are sometimes taken from a few performances and edited together. Orchestras can be pitched at A440 A 441. A442 even a445. And some performances are pitched at A420 and they all sound just fine as long as they are pitched equally. If 33.3333 is a significant different from 33.320 33.34 or whatever, that's beyond my hearing ability. If a person's pitch is that precise, I doubt that person would be incapable of enjoying any piano pieces that have any sharp or flat due to compromise in equal temperament tuning either. Timeline is fun to play with but in the end, it is really overly sensitive, I think .
Back in the 50s and 60s, all those with wonderful bluenote, decca, mercury lps, are recording equipments, Lp producing equipments calibrated to such precision level as Timeline offer? If not, timeline may make people worry much about nothing. |
tdaudio, I completely agree with you about recording process and all the behind the scene work. DG certainly made it well known that they are not there to capture the performance as is but edit and manipulate the recording session in such way that they think is the best way to listen through 2 channel systems. Whether you agree with their philosophy or not is up to personal preference. I have not made much point about that since I was really concentrate more on timing/speed issue with Timeline.
Actually I am a bit disappointed as there is not much of a comment regarding Brinkmann which is a turntable that I am actually curious about. All I recall regarding TW vs Brinkmann is that there were some old threads back when TW was still relatively new, it seemed that quite a few people made a migration from Brinkmann to TW.Whether that is still an accurate sentiment to the current Brinkmann and TW, I have no idea. |
PS, I am also curious, before Timeline came out, do you use ya turntable? Were you able to dial in the speed as accurately with other method as accurately as Timeline? If no, were you able to enjoy listening to LP at all? If yes, why did you bother to buy Timeline, to enjoy the blinking light? |
wrm57, I agree that it looks like TW owner are rather defensive. Unfortunately, you have to look at who is doing the bashing as well. So far Syntax said that he heard BN at a dealer in a system which he is probably not all that familiar with and somehow managed to pinpoint exactly that the fault of that system is with the turntable. I don't recall his background and his other exposure to TW but this does not give me much confidence to think that he knows what he is talking about.
He still cannot justify or explain the difference in calibration method, Timeline vs Kab strobe and how relevant that difference would be. It kinds of remind me a story of a guy who drived a Toyota everyday to work in a bumper to bumper traffic at 10 mph. One day, his rich uncle gave him a Ferrari which he drove to work in the same bumper to bumper traffic at 10 mph. At work, he proclaimed to his colleague, Ferrari is so much better, it can go 200 mph easily and he made it to work in half the time it would take him in his old Toyota.
Syntax also has the habit of jibing at products that he does not seem to have much knowledge about just because he thinks he can get away with it. Not too long ago, his comment regarding Minus-K just left me wonder if this guy is for real! |
Dev, if I remember correctly, you mentioned once that you bought a Minus-K that was customed ordered to fit Raven AC-3. When you bought BN, Minus-K was too small and you had to add a larger platform on top to accomodate BN. I don't remember all the detail now but that's what I remembered. Raven AC-3 is 49 kg not including controller unit. BN is 60 kg not including controller unit. If you have to add a bigger shelf, overall load is going to be quite a bit higher. Standard Minus-K usually has on specific weight range of around 10-15 kg max so it may be possible that BN may not be ideal match for your specific Minus-K. I don't know if you account for the weight difference already or not. |
Hmmm.. I found a review of KAB strobe on 6moon that claimed that KAB strobe error is +- 0.03%, that's +- 0.001 rpm so any turntable that is measured ok on KAB strobe should have a speed of 33.333+-0.01 rpm or 33.323-33.343.
Pitchwise, to change a semitone, you need 6% error, so KAB strobe would give maximum of half a cent off (you get 100 cent between each semitone). Some author claims threshold for audibility difference in pitch is about 5-6 cents, one study on student musicians showed threshold of +- 12 cents.
Timing wise, about +- 0.3 second for a 20 minute tracks. |
Typo above, +-0.01 rpm, not +-0.001 rpm as I typed in one place. |
Thuchan, I definitely would like to hear your view as well regarding Timeline. I am not denying that TW does not pass Timeline test. Syntax has been avoiding a direct question that I asked a couple of time but may be you could answer it then if you think I am blaming Timeline. Nowhere did I state that Timeline is inaccurate and it is definitely has less tolerance than Kab Strobe. However, it was proposed that TW problem is that it does not have adequate speed accuracy because it does not pass Timeline test eventhough it acheives speed accuracy within tolerance of Kab Strobe.
If this is true, wouldn't you say that most people who are listening to turntable before Timeline's invention are most likely not hearing proper speed either. How would you achieve speed precision on a turntable to the level of Timeline before it was invented. Was there any other way to calibrate turntable to such level. Even now, not everybody is using Timeline to calibrate their turntables. Is that mean that people with no Timeline are not hearing their turntable properly and are just as clueless as TW owner?
I tried Timeline on Micro Seiki SX-777 Air and compared its built in strobe to Timeline and it also failed Timeline test just like TW. Is that mean Micro Seiki is also worthless until Timeline comes along?
Do you think that the majority of records since its inception has been produced to the tolerance of Timeline's precision?
I don't deny precision of Timeline but question its real world's value. May be Syntax should start a holy war against Kab strobes and I assume most other strobes in general and preach that Timeline is the only acceptable tool but for some reasons, he seems to be keeping Timeline as a tool against TW only. I wonder why? |
Thuchan, I completely agree with you that Timeline is the most accurate device. I added SDS to my VPI table soon after Timeline became available. Seeing how it was such a nifty toy, I bought one before I even own any strobe. I was surprised when my local dealer came over to set up my VPI using Kab strobe and when I put on Timeline, I could see how far off Kab strobe was in comparison to Timeline.
Initially I was glad I bought Timeline and even told my local dealer that they need to get one immediately because otherwise they cannot set up turntable properly.
Now a few years later, having gone through 2 Micro Seiki Turntable, 2 VPI tables and TW (keeping 3), I became a bit disillusion about Timeline. First, yes, I can dial in SDS and Micro Seiki and get steady line with Timeline. TW is always either a bit faster or slowly as the interval on speed controller is larger than SDS (I am using BN battery powered controller, no I don't know if my hold 20 hours charge but on my day off, I can use my TW for several hours with no need to recharge). I always measure with arm down on the table. The whole usual routine and tried to be as accurate as possible. One thing I could never compensated for though is the actual mass of Timeline itself. On TW, I prefer using no center weight. VPI HRX center weight is 6-700g if I remember correctly. I use Orsonic clamp with Micro Seiki. I have a few center weights lying around and tried many more up to 1 kg but this is currently what I have. Timeline itself unfortunately does not work so well for me as center weight otherwise it would solve the biggest problem for me. If I remember correctly, Timeline is about 200 odd grams. Using Timeline instead of my usual center weight, I will get one speed but as soon as I take off Timeline and put on my usual center weight, the speed will be changed.
Timeline is so sensitive that even a 200g weight change on a heavy Microseiki or TW platter, you can detect speed difference. Try calibrating speed with Timeline using 120g LP and 200g LP, you will notice a change in speed as well.
Does every Timeline user recalibrate or make a note to adjust speed controller every time they change LP?
How do you compensate for differences in mass of center weight use or if you don't use center weight.
This drives me nut for a while until I finally realize that it is not simple to acheive 100% accurate speed per Timeline reading in practice. Looks nice on paper, sounds great in theory but at the end of the day, I just settled for getting close enough to Timeline is just a-okay.
After I stop obsessing with fidgetting with Timeline, it was a lot easier to enjoy the music.
I still use Timeline as I did not bother to buy a strobe. On TW, I just pick the speed that is just a tad slower than Timeline's speed figuring that without Timeline, it will speed up a tad. On VPI SDS/Micro Seiki, I could dial in perfectly but I know that as soon as I put on my usual center weight, speed will be a bit off and I settled for that. I usually use 180g Lp to calibrate, when I listen to 120g, 100g, 200g LP, I know that speed will be a bit off as well and I settled for that as well.
Absolute speed accuracy is nice but the only acceptable speed, I don't think so.
Raul, Lewn, I also totally agree with you completely. |
CT0517, I only have one motor. It takes around 13-15s for the platter to come to a complete stop when I timed mine (Raven AC-1 with BN battery supply) |
Syntax, I hope it is not a case of because you see it so you hear it! Your hearing must be incredible that you can hear with more precision than Kab strobe. I don't know if that is a gift or a curse. I assume that before Timeline came, you have to always adjust speed by ears then as no strobe would be good enough for you. I shall yield to your hearing ability.
Wait but you say that "it was new to you as well" after you receive Timeline that some turntables cannot hold accurate speed! Is that means that you actually did not know or could not hear that before but suddenly Timeline give you ability to hear better?
I understand your BMW story now, I better talk to Sutherland because I have been cheated. |
Peterayer, you also brought up a good point about moving back the distance of a surface to monitor Timeline's blinking light. The further back the distance, the more finely you can calibrate the speed as it will let you see the slight deviation in speed even more.
I don't know when you will reach the threshold where you will not hear or appreciate the difference.
It is a great tool for anyone who is compulsive obsessive though because the more you play with it, the more you will find way to acheive that steady blinking light. At one stage, because of significant difference in HRX center weight and Timeline weight, I figure out that I could get more accurate reading if I stick Timeline on top of HRX clamp with blutac to do the reading as the difference when I actually playing will only be the weight of Timeline itself rather than HRX weight minored Timeline weight which would be higher. All the while measuring it, I was praying that Timeline would not fly off and break my cartridge.
At the end, I felt better that I acheived closer ideal speed but did I really hear anything differently, not really!
If I eyeball the amount of drift by TW vs drift on Micro Seiki with 200g records or without 200g records (equal to approximate weight with and without Timeline on platter), they are actually quite close.
May be TW actually will hold more accurate speed than Micro Seiki if I adjust Micro Seiki to the exact speed with Timeline and not using Timeline or any clamp. Who knows...
Timeline is fun and it gives me almost infinite ways for me to be more obsessive about getting the ideal speed long after it passes my audible threshold.
At the end of the day, I just have to find the good enough spot that is reasonable so I stop wasting time fidgeting with toy and spend more time listening to music.
No disagreement about speed stability issue either but I think that is a different story. |
