Another one of these threads, so boring yawn ...
I find funny when I read from some of you suggesting these forums are free to communicate your thought's, REALLY?
I don't see it that way, numerous individuals come across as close minded taking it personally, to the point of such being a personal insult and dare you disagree with me.
Come on lighten up, it's only friggen equipment.
Goldeneraguy,
not everyone disagrees with Syntax fully, I'm a former owner of numerous TW products all the way up to owning their $40k + flagship BK table and 10.5 arm.
While owning I found listening to music as a whole just didn't seem right, one specific area being timing and rhythm "SPEED ACCURACY" I made these comments on numerous occasion to others only to be dismissed and to date still are by others "mainly TW owners" saying such can't be heard.
Now that's laughable :-) I find something wrong that a company selling a table in this price range and their product can't hold an accurate speed.
Is it that hard to do? Micro Seiki can!
I even commented to Thomas owner of TW my concerns when I owned my BK and when it went from Charge - Battery that I could clearly hear a difference sonically. Reply back from Thomas was .... you can't hear any difference. My reply back was kindly enlighten me why you would design a controller that is battery operated then if there are no sonic gains. Never received a reply back.
It wasn't just me who has heard this, I had others over 20+ individuals intrigued wanting to hear these tables.
I don't have a axe to grind and like to learn.
I was having a discussion with Albert Porter in what I was hearing and his polite response was try this and see if your SPEED ACCURACY is correct. I told him I used this and that strobe for speed set-up, he replied saying they aren't nearly as accurate.
I bought one off these SutherLand TimeLine pces and quickly found
These tables can not hold a accurate speed!
I still owned my AC3 at this time along with my Black Knight table, I tried my AC3 with 1 motor, 2 motors and 3 as designed along with the BK motor and controller found using the SutherLand no matter what I did non of these tables are able to offer speed accuracy.
I'm sorry but to me if you own a table and it can't hold an accurate speed it's flawed, no matter what else you do latter really doesn't matter because the speed needs to be accurate.
My 2cents worth.
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Ebm, wow that's uncalled for. When I wrote "boring yawn" I was referring to the bickering and negative remarks towards individuals.
I don't know everything and have never tried to come across in such a mannerism, only trying to convey and share my own experiences be it good or bad on product that I have actually owned, most posting on this thread can't say such.
I'm open minded and always learning, are you? because reading your last 3 post clearly not constructive and just demonstrates sarcasm.
With such snide remarks clearly demonstrates .... when I owned TW product all was good with your responses and other TW owners to me, is it because I now mention flaws with the product line that you are taking such personal.
You shouldn't.
TW has numerous faults and that's why I got rid of my tables because I couldn't correct such, it wasn't just because not being able to produce ACCURATE SPEED.
I even spent out of pocket money and sent my controller back to Thomas.
Suteetat/Lewm,
I don't agree that one has to have Golden Ears to hear or can't be heard, that's only a part of it because such can be felt while listening.
If you can't hear or feel the differences of such well what can I say, that's your opinion but mine and numerous others differs.
In the end as long as you are enjoying what ever it may be that's all that matters.
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Tdaudio,
part of my system consist of;
-MBL 101e
-Vac Statement 450 mono blocks
-Vac Sig MK2a pre with phono mm/mc
-Burmester 100 phono |
Rauliruegas,
I'm not about to call out another TW owner specially when D and I have had many pleasant conversations back and forth over the years so but I owned TW three tables, have friends whom also own TW AC's and not one can hold an accurate speed using the TimeLine so go figure. I also wrote previously that I put money out of pocket and sent my controller unit back to Thomas and was told everything was fine.
Lewm, I can fully appreciate but have any of you guys actually owned and lived with both TW's AC3 and Black Knight tables and used a TimeLine on either to set-up the speed? Out of the one's posting "D" Dgad and I are the only ones.
Not one TW table that I have checked can hold such period which to me is just showing one flaw and only a part of it. Next time there is a TW at a show place a TimeLine on it and you will see but I would be shocked if such would be allowed.
When I had my Black Knight "gorgeous pce" I partially bought into the company along with what is wrote in the companies product manual and web site which anyone can view.
In reference to operating on battery and charge, the figures used were grossly misleading. I just checked the web site and it still says;
Run time on battery operation only: Approx. 20 hours.
Totally not true, I kept a log and it was on the average 8hrs on charge and ONLY 4-5 hours max when on battery mode and that's before and after with newly installed batteries.
So another flaw
Why have a controller that is both battery and charge, what are the sonic benefits? Say 20 hours approx on this little box alone is misleading so why market in such a way.
The pullies on the AC3 motors have issues, the 3 on the motor unit for the BK is just an odd design and the tolerance between the three is far from being precise. There are variances and if one just eye balls horizontally looking at the three pullies and belt can clearly see that belt goes up and down within this short distance which is then transferred to the platter over again and again. One would think this should be a clean transition with very tight tolerances but you can clearly see the vibration action happening. Really don't need to use one but use a magnifying glass looking at the belt movement and you will be amazed.
The footers, the threaded nipples that connect to the bass are inadequate. Upon fine tuning levelness the feet end up being wobbly and not firmly planted. Should not be like this on a table of it's cost factor, I can only imagine what really is going on there alone.
The $8-900 each arm board firstly is just a ridiculous price and not even one is included with a $40K plus table. How ridiculous is that, one has to have a arm board to mount a arm right. Due to the design and how the motor unit should be placed you need to use the BK arm board so the belt doesn't touch the arm board and is properly aligned with the spindle.
The controller does not allow fine tuning so one can not get the speed bang on, as Suteetat wrote above "Speed accuracy is always going to be a issue with TW, FAST OR SLOW" never mind with the needle planted and actually playing.
With the arm mounted and needle touching the record if you tap anywhere on the table or platform it's placed upon one can clearly hear a thud transferred through the speakers. Using the AC arm board which is solid brass I believe offers a different sound where as the BK is made of aluminum I believe.
This forum is for us to share information so that's exactly what I'm doing from my own personal experience.
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TW tables are okay but that's it, all I can say is choose your poison. I don't miss mine.
Where are these TW tables actually manufactured "facility" because when I was heading off to Germany to Mercedes Benz facilities for a tour I also inquired one of the TW manufacturing facilities but was told such was not available which really seemed very odd.
Has anyone been to it.
Ebm, oh no you are the one who knows everything, all one needs to do is read your posts over the past years which offer nothing. :-)
The usual one liners "fan boy" replies or sarcasm with snide remarks towards other members as you have clearly demonstrated numerous times above in this thread.
Do enjoy! |
Hi Dgad,
Interesting;
-in relation to being on battery mode and now being able to hold an approx. 20 hour when did this finally happen
-Have you actually kept a log, how long is the charge vs being on battery mode now while playing a record.
-You mention you can clearly hear a difference now compared to prior versions and you have now owned several, what year are you referring to and how many versions.
I never received any information of such while owning any of mine.
-When you make mention it's an audible difference what are you actually referring to.
I could hear along with others who heard my system back when I owned mine a few years ago the differences but both Jeff and Thomas dismissed such but now all the sudden you make references to changes and such being audible, interesting.
Kindly enlighten us further along with what was done.
I agree the bass was boomy and just one of my issues, I spent additional monies to address such. I actually purchased a custom made Minus K platform that Jeff had commissioned. I also tried numerous other methods which helped but in the end did not satisfy.
So more work has been done on the controller unit so it can now finally lock in on 33.3 speed, this is good news and was needed. When did this finally actually happen, what year.
-What other changes have been made to the Black Knight table
In relation to the AC tables have changes also been made to their controllers, any more bearing changes. I know there are many tables out there built in different years and are different variances of the same table but most can not actually be upgraded fully to the latest version mainly due to the bearing change.
-The motor unit, on mine the actual pulley's the way they were manufactured have a roundness in the middle. When I eye balled mine viewing at the same level I could clearly see a variance of the belt wondering up and down on the three pulley's and interacting, such being transferred to the platter which would be transferred to the bearing. At one point I used a scope just for fun to magnify the sound, I tried various motor methods including my AC motors. 1 or 2 or 3 even 1 or 2 or 3 of the pulley's on the BK motor unit which was really interesting. I even placed one AC motor on the opposite side of the platter inline with the spindle but not actually working but with a belt on it, listening. This was very interesting indeed, taking pressure of the bearing and only being pulled to one side. |
Dgad,
I not bashing just asking questions for clarification, I don't see anything wrong with that.
I'll gladly answer yours, see below;
1- I don't know what MBL has to say about pairing my such up with my VAC 450 Statement amps, best you ask them. The rest of your babble in relation to this is just that, showing a lack of experience. You can put the question forth to Ralph of Atma-Sphere whom will educate you in the fact MBL's once loaded in a room aren't that hard to drive. You can also speaker with Ken Steven's of CAT whom built his 100 watt tube mono blocks around MBL's.
2- I purchased my table from a TW dealer, I was the first consumer to own it. I also purchased a 10.5 arm from a dealer, again first consumer to own.
3- Minus K optimized, wow! you really have no clue because you would never make statements or ask such.
4- Your last paragraph is just stupid, why is it TW fan boys all seem to be so defensive including your self as I'm reading and BS. I'm not a MS group guy, don't care about Syntax and TW issues, that's between them. I don't have an axe to grind and nothing against Jeff or Thomas. I'm sharing my experience as you and others do and just asking questions in relation to TW product as a whole so kindly answer.
Now I have some questions;
My first question;
1- Simply answer my questions put forth in my above posting or are you afraid for some reason.
2- You asked me so I'll ask you, who did you buy your TW tables from? My understanding is that you have a history of trading watches for product, is that true? because there is a story's going around. |
Ebm, it doesn't take rocket science to set-up a TW table but then again you would not know because as you stated above you had someone else do that for you so you really are the clueless one. Can you actually offer any constructive information besides you normal silliness.
Adding to that Ebm I still owned my AC3 at that time when I was inquiring about a tour and was looking to purchase the BN table something that you can only dream of owning.
Still no one has answered, is there in fact a TW facility and if so where specifically in Germany, it appears ghostly.
It's sad that some of you "mostly TW owners" are so close minded on this topic of product but very opinionated about others, all one needs to do is read your past threads so what would one call that?
I personally owned numerous TW product up to their flagship pce, how many of you can say that say I can and will convey my findings be it good or bad.
I am providing first hand information in a discussion, if you take it as bashing or personal well then you have the problem.
These forums are for discussions, I provide first hand while some of you are flying on the seat of your pants and so full of sh..
When looking at product "any" nothing is perfect and the usual is to discuss so improvements can be made.
As per Dgad's reply above, he says he has had numerous versions.
Why would there be numerous versions?
Dgad mentioned his table now is locked in on the 33.3 speed and said he can hear the difference, if the speed was not a concern as so many of you seem to babble about then why would Thomas work on such and why would Dgad write such.
Dgad said the latest version now holds an approx. 20 hour charge. Wonder which version this is as mine only held 4-5 hours, far cry from 20 hours. I sent mine back to Thomas and he said he checked everything but upon arrival still the same.
So why would there be a latest versions if all was good.
AC tables that most of you own you don't even know what version it is, I bet most are the older version with the old noisy bearing which can not be upgraded due to the substantial redesign so you best just get a new table but if you can't hear the difference as most "glow about" really doesn't matter does it.
Why do you think there was such a radical costly redesign?
Come on guys .... wake up already
In the end as long as you are happy with your sound, not looking to improve, don't kmow or can't hear the differences than so be it, individuals whom I know are looking for improvement's just like Dgad otherwise he would not be trying different versions would he.
I'm thinking of buying another TW BK to actually see if there are any improvements :-) |
Dgad said;
Dev,
You purchased a second hand unit. And had no direct dealer support. Not from Jeff and not from TW.
THAT'S AN OUT RIGHT LIE, who told you that CRAP! You need to get your information correct before posting such malicious false information.
So you THINK you know so much who did I buy mine from?
Even if it was purchased second hand which it wasn't what happen to all of the praise from owners on threads saying that both Jeff and Thomas stand behind the TW product, what a laugh that is. You are just digging TW further into a hole and I must address such when you try to discredit me.
How many TW's BN tables do you think there were sold when I purchased mine that made their way to Unit States threw JEFF?
Jeff is the North American guy right or are there other ways like back door deals so Jeff doesn't get his ridiculous chunk of change.
As you wrote you purchase direct, shouldn't of yours gone threw a dealer out your way.
In the end non of this has to do with the merits of the tables them selves does it.
In relation to the Minus K which I still own, the remarks made clearly demonstrate lack of knowledge.
The bearing in my BN table was not similar to the one in my AC3 and I have personally seen three different ones.
Dgad, I really don't care but there is allot more to the watch story than that which is going around. I'm sure you paid allot less for your table than what I did.
Amazing how you heard IMPROVEMENTS once you had your controller changed "upgraded" and admit it would only hold 4 hours on battery and would not hold accurate speed but once done hear differences.
I suppose that goes against all the other remarks in this thread from others suggesting I didn't and couldn't and trying to discredit and freaking out about it.
As mentioned I did send my controller unit back to Thomas of TW "ON WARRANTY" and said he changed the board and batteries.
Look I understand any product will have changes, hopefully for the better and these forums are suppose to be for end users sharing information but for what ever reason TW owners specifically "some not all" freak out if anything is mentioned.
You whom will know still have yet to answer my other questions but when you asked I did, why is that?
Is there something to hide?
Many seem to make reference to Syntax who does have allot of knowledge but no mention to trolls such as Ebm with their one liners whom post on many different threads making reference to TW being the best which is crap! Firstly there is no best, secondly when he post specifically in reference to TW never constructive adding anything. All one had to do is read his past threads hear and on other topics threads and can clearly see. Like I stated before all praise for me from him but once I made any comments in relation to the TW product FLAWS only replies with iodic remarks as some above which clearly demonstrates his lack of credibility.
I laugh when I read some write;
You are clueless in setting up a TW table but that same person also writes he had his set-up for him.
So who is the clueless one.
I'm sure his controller is an older version but can't even hear as both Dgad and I have stated, what a joke! :-) |
Goldeneraguy,
what a stupid post and again clearly demonstrates what I have wrote above, you obvious have no clue when I wrote such do you but Dgad and some others do.
VAC, purchased using a Vac dealer whom has been such for years which I've also dealt with for years. Same goes with the rest of the product I own except for my recent purchase of a used pair of EA MM3 speakers.
Emb, your posting above is so full of crap and not true. You and others have a problem being challenged, you try to BS others.
Just look at the OP's posting and the first reply being yours saying;
04-07-13: Ebm
TW Acustic best sonding best made.
What do you call that? Joke! |
Hi Sunnyboy1956,
thx, it's great to read you are enjoying.
You asked what has gone wrong .....?
Obviously directing towards me, nothing really. Just sharing my findings with others but then some "mostly TW owners" take such as a personal attack on their credibility and do their normal thing by replying as one can clearly read above in some of the postings.
Then you have others that feel one can't hear the difference if the speed is not locked in and try to discredit, for the life of me just makes me laugh. If they can't hear what I or others can "Syntax" what can I say.
Dgad even in his postings above has clearly stated he could hear the differences once locked in on the proper speed.
I originally enjoyed my BN table "gorgeous appearance wise" but quickly found there were flaws upon set-up and usage and addressed such directly with both Jeff and Thomas which mostly went on death ears.
Well that's not totally true I did receive a very rude reply back with not so nice language from Thomas when I was addressing the issue with my controller and not being able to keep an accurate speed and what I was hearing and another one from Jeff suggesting it's "arm" not being set-up properly.
When I had issues I asked numerous others experienced individuals whom I know for assistance, those issues I had never changed with them either.
Still have the emails.
Table
-Not being able to lock it in and hold an accurate speed
-The three pulleys on the motor
-The nipples for attaching the feet
-Controller battery issue
and lastly the 10.5 arm.
What's ironic is when I sold the arm to a new owner because of my dissatisfaction this person actually started a thread.
He also found there were issues, one being the magnet was reversed. I and others who assisted missed that one upon trying to figure out what's going on, I received copies of his conversations with both Thomas and Jeff and one that stands out suggested CLEARLY saying the original owner must have switched the magnet around. How hilarious is that. |
Dgad,
I recall where you live and thx for the invite. As I wrote early we have had numerous great conversations.
Weather, it's spring time where I live so it's up and down but I'm currently in my place in Hawaii so it's very nice indeed! :-)
TW product, it's two fold, see below;
One being that it get tiresome reading misleading posts from TW owners suggesting such sounds the best and built the best as per Ebm first posting on this thread.
It's just not true
Second being I'm just providing first hand experience be it good or bad just as others do about other products in general but I find allot of TW owners appear to take it so personally as an attack.
It's only product, you even mentioned numerous changes to your existing product was a positive.
Bearing talk;
The bearing in my BN had a ball bearing on top and inside the platter the fitting at the top portion was green. The AC table I owned and others I have seen where not the same and had different bearings. The Raven one had a complete bearing change over also and couldn't be upgraded, same goes for the AC tables. Easier to just purchase a new table. I wonder just how many variances there are.
I'm curious about the BN tables mainly because of what you mentioned saying the bearing was the same in his AC table, when I purchased my BN due to my prior knowledge which was never openly disclosed by TW "Jeff or Thomas" or any owners I had asked wanting confirmation the table was the latest design and nothing in the works in relation to changes specially the bearing.
I was told it was and nothing was in the works, still have the emails from both Jeff and Thomas for confirmation.
Ebm,
your last posting is the usual one liners because you have nothing constructive to offer and only offer sarcasm and clearly demonstrates your character.
Don't forget to take your meds, did you get your left hearing aid or is it your right one checked as of yet, maybe that's what your problem is I'm not sure. I'm sure your controller has the same FLAWS as both Dgad and I have mentioned with ours, time to send it in but if you can't hear the difference really doesn't matter does it. |
Hi Blammy,
well aren't you just doing the same thing but in actual fact worse because your not being constructive, what makes you different.
I recall sometime "years" back that your name came up in conversation, don't you write for a German analog mag.
One would think that you should disclose such, was your table a long term loaner. Did you purchase outright prior or did Thomas provide such for you to try. |
Goldeneraguy,
can you read, your assumptions are just that and not facts, you are in lala land like allot of the other TW fans.
See below what I wrote in response to Dgad.
Now read it slowly;
THAT'S AN OUT RIGHT LIE, who told you that CRAP! You need to get your information correct before posting such malicious false information.
So you THINK you know so much who did I buy mine from? |
Goldeneraguy,
if you can read and comprehend then why make such ridiculous false accusations asking again when I have already addressed such.
If you know so much tell me and others whom I purchased my TW product from if it was not from a TW dealer, if you can't then shut up already about this.
It really isn't all that tuff you know;
1- Thomas is the manufacture of the TW product correct.
2- The product supposedly is manufactured in Germany and ships from there to the US correct.
3- The product would be shipped to Jeff for any North American sales and he wouldn't just pass it along without getting his cut right.
4- So who would I have gotten my BN table and TW product including 10.5 arm from if Jeff wasn't the US source.
5- Thomas wouldn't do any back door deals would he.
6- If Thomas doesn't then the source would have to be Jeff right
Hello, it really make me wonder about some of you guys. :-)
Yes I love my music do you, who are you to preach to me when you make such ridiculous lame accusations. I really don't care what you or others are saying because most have no clue and just ramble on with no actual facts, I have been to many members places after reading their rave postings to only be disappointed left wondering.
It's important to provide information for others reading so they can see both sides know what they are in for.
How many of you knew what I have conveyed, obviously TW knew there were issues otherwise why such dramatic changes and not just simple tweaks, some of you guys are just puppets on strings and so naïve.
I'm replying my personal findings that I found while owning TW product, numerous individuals have been trying to discredited and switch over to another topic just as you are in your last postings.
Lets keep to the facts at hand which I have mention, I will gladly debate. Even Dgad another BN owner was nice enough to admitted some of my findings "short falls of the BN" are true. "Speed issue and battery" Reading I think he may not have the latest version bearing either which would mean ...
I know it sucks to find these things out when some of you feel you have the best but that's life, don't take it so personally it's only product. If you are happy then why worry, be happy and enjoy listening :-) |
Hi Blammy,
my apology must have been someone else who was doing it years ago for TW in Germany, a mag named "LP"
Dgad,
yes my bearing had the ball bearing on top, yours must be an older design if it is the same as the AC because my AC was the same description you are referring to.
Guys I'm a pretty straight forward shooter, I'm just providing my own first hand experience. You don't have to agree that's okay, at lease one owner "Dgad" whom owns one has acknowledged he had the same issues in two areas.
As per my prior posts yes I did buy and own numerous TW products. Raven one was the most disappointing purchase after I got the AC3 and compared.
AC3, nice table - then comes my purchase of the BN. Physical appearance for me was night and day over the AC3 but should be at more than double the asking price, I appreciated the BN sonic wise.
So what happened Dgad?
Well after that "NEW PRODUCT" syndrome wore off specific things bothered me besides the numerous flaws I have mentioned previously. We are talking about a very expensive table here, $40 + K
At that time I could not get the speed to lock in as Dgad also mentioned with his. My controller unit had been sent back due to only being able to hold a 4-5 hour charge when on battery. I could hear a difference, as Dgad has written he had a similar experience.
Being in contact with both Jeff and Thomas I was basically being told "your crazy there is no difference being heard and the table runs on a accurate speed and the hours mentioned for battery is approx." and so on.
So be it.
At a point I found myself at a dead end so I started checking out other tables to learn more. I have learned allot and that there are all kinds of flavours, in the end really is subjective as I have read on numerous postings but I'm after what I like not others.
I know set-up, phono settings etc is important and have that covered and I always chuckle when specific individuals suggest there may be an issue there.
I'm happy where I'm at and don't see me saying it's the best sounding and best built, I always have the door open to try.
I actually have two tables, one that's been talked about in another forum mostly. Very interesting pce but very costly, also comes from Japan :-)
Rauliruegas, buy a TW BN table and place it in your system and then we can talk but until then you just won't get it.
Also you might want to keep an open mind in relation to Syntax table set-up, you just might learn something. :-)I know I have.
Obviously there was more going on then just not being able to hold an accurate speed but Dgad says at least that's now been resolved, good to hear.
I like it when manufactures listen, didn't originally to me but something must have happened.
I gotta go catch some waves so hang loose.
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Raulirugas,
you said; "Dev is talkind about one critical audio subject: accuracy and things are that he owns tube technology that IMHO is not really accurat"
Wow! as the norm attacks on another's gear, clearly demonstrates you really have no clue. I also own SS gear and other speakers.
You appear that you are suggesting what you own is more accurate, if so that's just too funny :-) Lets all go out and purchase what you have, does that make you happy now! Don't hold your breath on that one happening any time soon.
Curious is that table set-up in the front centre some type of room tuning device adding you position those figurines on top just so Ha! Ha!
Some above are making mention they can't hear the difference when the speed is not locked in for accurate speed, okay I can except that but there are others that can so...
Dgad who actually owns a TW BN table has mentioned in his own postings above he did along with what he hears, did you take the time to read. Syntax says he can and has described what he hears, I also do while using my TW BK so what does this mean. Some can and some can't.
I was able to catch some great waves and will do so again, life is good. Hang loose!
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