Boy, Oh Boy! Towshend!

As for Electrostatics not needing the benefits of Supension Isolation.
Within my local HiFI Group .
There was a investigation to try and find Isolation Footers that work offering a comaparable impression to my SolidTech 'Feet of Silence' and Audio Technica  'AT- 616'.

The lesser value choices were experiened up to IsoAcoustic Gaia Models.
The Gaia's got the vote for use under TT's and a set og Gaia's eventually ended up under a group members Quad 2912 Electrostatic Speakers.

I am due to listen to these speakers on the upcoming weekend, it will be my the first time in almost a year listening to this system. 
 

Speaker spikes are useless. Vibration is not limited by the small surface at the tip of the spike; it pass through regardless. And massive platforms don't help; low vibrations pass easily through all large surfaces. Concrete floors are not "vibration absorbers" and this is not like grounding a signal. The energy must be redirected through an effective isolator. 

The manufacturing industry has dealt with vibration for decades, using springs and ball bearings for vibration control of large machinery. While the scale is much smaller with audio equipment, the principles of physics apply equally. As a result, you see the most effective (and most expensive) premium isolation products apply either or both of these approaches.

I had a customer who made me some Harleyish floorboard inserts out of medium-hard rubber.  They work perfectly on my tile over concrete floor.  All equipment is next door in the ex-laundry room, with its two 110 volt 30 amp (10 gauge) outlets, converted from a 30 amp 220 volt dryer outlet.This solved several problems:  Plenty of reserve amperage from the two circuits, resonance to the electronics, clutter in the listening areas, and hiding and routing dozens of interconnects between the two preamps, three amps, three tuners, CD player, head amp, turntable, sub crossover,etc.  Cost: Under $100 for two outlets, 2 110v breakers, and two more outlet plates for the speaker wire holes on the wall.

I met Max Townshend at the Premium XFi show in Holland where he had a demo going on 2 pairs of identical speakers, one pair mounted on his platforms and the other pair on spikes adjusted to equal the heights, it was impressive. Basically he is isolating the speakers from mini seismic tremors (his explanation)

Equally as impressive was the demo of his super-tweeter. Adding the device improved more than just the very high frequencies. It was producing the upper harmonics of all instruments allowing them to sound more real.

A lot of you will be shouting ’but I can only hear up to 14Khz’. Well it doesn’t work that way. The harmonics contain much of the spatial information and provides clues to the performers relative position. If you hear an instrument that has had the harmonics removed you will be listening to a pure sine wave. Does not matter if it is a sax or guitar, if they are both playing middle C for example what you will get is a pure tone at about 262Hz. Now when the harmonics are present you are able to identify the instrument and it follows that the more faithfully and completely the harmonics are produced the more a piano will sound like a piano. It’s quite uncanny when heard.

Taking cognisance of the above it will be easier to understand why room treatment is so important. If all this info is left to bounce around the room unhindered the very fine detail (harmonics) is just a jumble, confusing the imaging and making it harder to identify vocals and instruments.

OP, I apologise for going off track but Townshend’s name triggered my memory.

@arafiq 

@arthur1260
I have the Townshend podiums under my Tontrager stands where sits my Harbeth 40.2’s.  Zero issues. Totally secure.  Insane improvement in my room. 

In US, you can contact dan at info@ear-usa.com.  They are the US distributor for Townshend.

Townshend Pods under my TT (thanks for the tip @millercarbon ) and the difference is quite noticeable. I have another TT with the AT-636 as feet and (even though that plinth is much less mass) I feel that TT picks up more vibration and occasional footfalls when my kid dances. I need to try them vice versa but I'm 100% sold on the pods for under a TT regardless.

@pindac - I am wondering if the Quads 2912 do benefit from isolation?
They don’t appear to have a conventional bass driver? I am happy to read of your experience, and acknowledge that I have never heard an electrostatic panel on isolation of any kind.

An example of probably not needed is electrostatic panel speakers for example, well unless it has a sub built in, or dipole speakers...etc.RixTheTrick

The above comment was based on discussions in previous threads on spring isolation of which I have always been outspokenly pro-isolation on speakers and equipment since joining Agon.

Everything in my system is isolated on some sort of spring system, I am actively pro Townshend, and many in here know that I have also named Sweden’s SolidTech, great looking and by all accounts I’ve read, effective isolation. ( I haven’t had opportunity to hear or use them yet)

Oh, I have heard stand mount speakers on the Townshend Audio bars, just simply transformative. This is why I am so very much into isolation, and I have isolation on everything.

How about filling the stands with cat litter ? An inexpensive solution.

Townshend seismic platform under my turntable was an incredible improvement. Just be sure to match the weight to the podium version selected. Doesn't remove footfalls however. To do that, I had to put my table on a wall mounted shelf. The improvement even without the shelf was so significant that I was willing to live with the footfalls and use the platform.

I also use Symposium products under my speakers, amp and phono stage and noticed nice improvements there as well. They clean up noise. The advantage to them is that they drain nose internal to a component and isolate it. That's why I like it for speakers. They make platforms with multicomponent levels and roller blocks that isolate by making the boxes float.  

Remember though, proper isolation does not "add" anything, it removes the bad and lets the good come through. So, if you have a well isolated set up, rack or whatever, the improvement may be less. 

@rixthetrick 
                    I've been making variuos types of Isolation available to be used by Audio Minded friends for a good period of time.
It was the AT 616's used on a friends speakers that sealed the idea of his acquiring Towsend Skids and shorly after Towsend Plinths.

It is my loan of Solid Tech Feet of Silence that was the motivation for another group of friends to attempt to find a Footer that offered a similar effect. 
That is how the GAIA's become used within the group as the progressive search led to these and they are highly rated.
The use of these under the Electrostatics is an extension of the investigations, and the results from the time of the trials are reported as being a noticeable improvement.
I am to visit the Speaker Owner tomorrow, I will make further inquiries about the effects.
SolidTech 'FOS' are great footers and I have seen very impressed peaple as well as myself when used under a TT.
One friend built his own Sub Plinth using the design concept, sort of like a SME TT Hybrid design.
I know it was also upgraded as a design so that a attachment point for the O Rings could be used to add additional rings, to allow exta weight to be supported if need be.
                        
                   
 

I wouldn't mind advice for my situation.I have a 300 pound Sound Anchors rack. It is solid steel bars filled with sand. With spikes and discs on each corner.
On top of the rack will be a Basis 2001 with silicone filled suspension pods(allows the table to shimmy if touched) and a Vertere Acoustics MG-1 with its own suspenion system. Both on MDF wood planks that seat within the rack...
I used to have a Townshend Seismic Sink under the Basis but the air bladder blew out. Twice. But I'm not certain how much benefit the table received from it. 1, due to its own suspension and 2, the Sound Anchors immobile rack. The rack is unaffected by footfalls or anything.
I wonder if any of you have an opinion on any significant benefit of putting isolation platters under suspended tables on an immobile rack.
Also, I have 140 pound JM Lab Mezzo Utopia speakers each on 4 fat spikes/metal discs with felt bottoms on tile which is on top of the concrete foundation.
They sound fantastic but I don't know if they could sound better with different Townshend isolation bars/podiums...Any thoughts would be most appreciated. Thanks.

From My Experience and these following comments are from a personnal view point.
Not using a Turntable Support as an example, as there are major benefits to be discovered from using permutations of Isolation/Support under one.

A Isolation Placed Under a Shelf/Sub Plinth on a Rack has not changed anything to the point it is recognised as a noticeable improvement.
From recollection the use of the Isolation might alter the perception of the way the device is presenting, but this could also be imaginary.
Using the same type of Isolation that has been used under a Shelve/Sub Plinth and used as footer separating a Device from the Shelve/Sub Plinth Material has shown more meaningful and noticeable changes to a Devices performance.
A delivery can be perceived as ranging from Bass is Light Footed to Bass is Heavy Footed, depending on the Footer Material and Design.
I try and keep these types of footers not too complicated as design and a affirdable to source material.
When a Footer is discovered that is seemingly adding a value to a device being used, I will then use this footer under the Shelve/ Sub Plinth as a measure of a self satisfaction, whether needed or not.

I have trialed with different Shelves/Sub Plinth Materials and MDF has not been a preferred material.
I also trial with Tiers of materials to produce a Shelve/Sub Plinth and MDF has not found its way as go to material in these permutations either. 
It has been a long time since MDF has been trialed so I can't quite recollect why it was not desired, but any material that I perceive as
Bass Heavy Footed is rejected by myself, as this in my mind is smearing the details and suppressing the Mid's to Highs of the frequency range.

Most of my Shelves/Sub Plinths have a Granite in use as one of the Tiers.
Different Densities of Foam are regularly used as well and a Cork Pad that will usually be found as separater of the the materials from the Supporting Frame and be used under a device as the footer. 

After various Permutations of Materials to used to support my Mono Block Amp's.
I have produced a Sub Plinth, that consists of a Material used under Laboritory Floors to absorb Micro Vibrations, this is Multi Tiered and has produced two Piers to a Height of 500mm.
Sitting on the Pier Material is a Granite Lintel that weighs in at 250Kg (550lb)
Seated on the Granite Lintel that Bridges onto the Two Piers is a Layer of Hard Foam which offers a resistance to being compressed, as well as a Layer of a Highly Compressed Foam Board which has structural. properties.
The diffference of the perception of the Amp's presentation when lifted from the Floor on a Sub Plinth to the seating on the Granite is immeasurable, it was a instant WOW!.
The fine tuning with the Foams as the final tiers in the permutation was more of the obsessive personality than essential, but the Foam Board is my go to material as much as Granite in a Sub Plinth that has additional tiers.

My Hifi Racks Rigid Frames and all the Shelves are with a Granite as a minimum sitting on a Cork Pad.
This Rack was a few years ago seated onto a Purpose Produced Sub Plinth Support.
Again this added treatment was perceived to have produced a small improvement, but most importantly it gave a reassurance and future endevours are starting from the best base. 

Starting the experimentation is the key, finding a material of permutation of materials that are perceived as a time well spent and a noticeable improvement over the previous used will be the reward.  

    

Starting the experimentation is the key, finding a material of permutation of materials that are perceived as a time well spent and a noticeable improvement over the previous used will be the reward.

Great post!

Your experiment correlate with mine to some degree...

I used what i called a "sandwich" under my speakers which are on my desk and the same sandwich with dac and amplifier...

Quartz feet,granite plate,sorbothane in between, another granite plate, cork plate, bamboo plate...

This improve the sound quality...

BUT,

It was not enough....And i was not conscious of what was missing..... 😊

I used then 2 set of 4 boxes springs, one set of 4 under the speaker over the sandwich, another set over the speaker, under a fine tuned damping load of concrete ( 78 pounds)...
The essential point is the application of a dyssimetric compressive force between the 2 sets of springs which are then compressed with a different load....This decrease the negative effect of resonance of the rectangular enclosure....I was inspired by the " building tuned mass damping" principle....


Results : Amazing....On all acoustic count, timbre, bass, high frequencies....

Cost: under 100 bucks....

I had another idea about this to improve it , i must wait for another experiment in the week to come....


I dont think that those who cannot afford costly method must renounce isolation.... Isolation control is mandatory....

@vinylshadow - if you can, post a picture of those items you are specifically talking about on a system page. Something about a picture says a thousand words... I’m not even suggesting your whole system if it’s an issue, just that which you are enquiring about.

Using the same type of Isolation that has been used under a Shelve/Sub Plinth and used as footer separating a Device from the Shelve/Sub Plinth Material has shown more meaningful and noticeable changes to a Devices performance.

Yes!

I also trial with Tiers of materials to produce a Shelve/Sub Plinth and MDF has not found its way as go to material in these permutations either.
It has been a long time since MDF has been trialed so I can’t quite recollect why it was not desired, but any material that I perceive as
Bass Heavy Footed is rejected by myself, as this in my mind is smearing the details and suppressing the Mid’s to Highs of the frequency range.

MDF laminated to steel plate - ever try that? It’s good. HDF laminated to steel plate, is even better.

I have produced a Sub Plinth, that consists of a Material used under Laboritory Floors to absorb Micro Vibrations, this is Multi Tiered and has produced two Piers to a Height of 500mm.

I don’t care if you PM me with it, I just have to learn what it is ... please??

@rixthetrick

Thanks but I wasn’t able to figure that out.
But if you go to imgur dot com slash a slash FEI0zPQ pics are on im gur.
If you are able to, you’ll see the 300 pound Sound Anchors rack and the Basis turntable. But I’m adding a 2nd to the left of the center speaker.
Then you can see 1 of my speakers on the spikes/disc and a Rowland Model 12 behind it. Also on a spiked Sound Anchors amp stand.
Hope that helps!

@rixthetrick
I am home from todays social get together with Friends meeting and HiFi at the centre.
I made a mistake about the Electrostatics, the Footers are not the Gaia model but the IsoAcoustic Pods.
The Gaias are under the SP10R.
My HiFi Racks are now seated on a 1100mm X 750mm X 12mm (43" x 29" x 1/2") Steel Plate.
The Base Plate has Two Footers of Granite 1000mm x 100mm x 150mm (39x4x6), with a Hard Foam Board and a Rubber to separate the steel from the granite.
This is the only place I have used Steel Plate on the System.
I know of a German Forum Member who has access to extremely expensive HiFi Devices and he uses 40mm Thick Stainless Steel Plinths under his SUT’s.
The Anti Vibration Material is a Industial Material and I was given it by the Company Installing it.
The Manager informed me it is regularly installed by them when sensitve equipment is to be used in rooms, in this case Laboratories.
I took a selection of Slabs, ranging from 100mm, 75mm and 30mm.
I used these from a Single layer and built up to the 500mm.
As said as soon as the Amp’s were supported the improvement was quite noticeable.
The 500mm Height was produced as the Amp’s started to look a little more attractive when elevated and at near eye level.
I will get the Brand name of the Product as the Company that uses it are
still met regularly.

@pindac - thanks :-)

mijostyn wrote

The problem is your floor resonates which is what muddies the bass. Back when I was installing systems (a long time ago) we hung speakers from the ceiling on chains or cables. I really do not think that work particularly well. Instead of muddy bass we got no bass. Things like bass drum impacts disappeared. The real solution is a sturdier floor which is only possible if the floor is open below.

This is an issue with floor joists and second story wooden framed homes, I have been suggesting for quite some time to pre-load the substrate using a very heavy mass under the speakers. Spanning joists if possible, as they are engineered for load bearing. The obvious issue is having something shallow enough to not raise the speakers too much. The extra mass aught to somewhat alleviate the floor movement, and the extra mass will help to deform the springs, using Newton’s laws of motion. Almost the more practicable mass the better. The entire goal is for transient energies to deform the springs, rather than transfer energy where these energies will infiltrate into other items such as the other speaker, the rack, the walls etc.

@vinylshadow

I wonder if any of you have an opinion on any significant benefit of putting isolation platters under suspended tables on an immobile rack.

Your rigid heavy rack should certainly help, however your center speaker (yes I saw the photos, thanks) will be a localised source of energies to excite the stand, and everything on it.

Also, I have 140 pound JM Lab Mezzo Utopia speakers each on 4 fat spikes/metal discs with felt bottoms on tile which is on top of the concrete foundation.
They sound fantastic but I don’t know if they could sound better with different Townshend isolation bars/podiums...Any thoughts would be most appreciated. Thanks.

It is my best guess (I have not had to contend with your exact situation, the following is based upon observations and my brand of logic).

If you isolate all of your speakers, particularly the center speaker and those with the largest bass drivers (I haven’t seen your entire system). This will probably be the best solution, as a first matter of isolation. Mitigate at the source of the vibrations, rather than implement control measures at critical component level, is my methodology.

Possibly better would be to remove the center channel speaker and have it on it’s own stand, I’m guessing that may not be practical though?

Personally, it is my opinion that it is after the speaker isolation is primarily resolved (that center channel for sure), that your TT should be addressed. Because instead of eliminating the vibrations into your TT through the stand, you’d be making efforts to transform energies leaving your speakers via springs (it needs to be a broad spectrum of frequencies you can attenuate), from even entering the stand and everything else on it. Concrete floor, is better for isolation than peer and beam, you are already ahead in the game.

** Thoughts: The rug could be bigger to deal with first reflections, and does that glass table get some reflections bounce off of it?
If you absolutely cannot live without it, maybe drop something over it during critical listening or a movie that is special?
Possibly try it and see if it even makes a difference?? You can tell me to pull my head in, I’m just making observations.

What is quite important and a factor to put into the to discussion is a persons sensitivities to a unclean Bass Note.
By Unclean I mean my perception of unclean.
A Note that is not fast and is quick to decay and does not seem to be coloured, but a Bass Note that has a overpowering presence and lingers, at times not seeming to decay and finish as a note, but blend into the next.  

Again I speak from my own personnal experiences gathered over the years.
I am Bass Sensitive and I live with this as a inherent part of my make up.
If I am at a live music event, the quality of the Bass from a PA can detract my attention from every thing else.
I ’from pre covid times’ find when I am at a live event, especially where there are multiple stages and Bands to be heard, my preference is to select the Bands that have a very tight bass line and clean decay and not the ones with a boom and very smeared decay that dominates the music presentation.
The more the Bass is becoming Bass and Dub the more I lose sight of the other areas of a performance.
My mind accepts the antithesis of Bass and Dub as a category of being the most honest.

In a HiFi system, the Clean Bass Note and clean decay is the most welcome and again in my mind the most honest rendition.

I listen to many systems and have just began to be able to enjoy this activity once more.
I have learnt through this undertaking that an individual has their very unique tolerance for different frequencies being produced.
A good friend is Valve Amp and Horn Speaker orientated, I know just how unattractive the Bass is to myself through this system, and I have always been drawn from other attributes as the Bass has been a detractor and pulled a lot of my focus from sharing in the pleasure to be had from the whole of the frequency range.

I took a pair of Quad ESL 57’s to this home and put these on in place of the Horn Speakers.
To my ears the wonderful Upper Mid’s and Highs were a perfect marriage for the Valve Amp’s.
The Bass was lean and airy, which decayed with noticeable shimmering, that ot me was a sheer delight at times.
The Systems owner was quite keen to end the demonstration and get back to the Horns.

It really is a Personnal perspective and very individual, as to how much presence a frequency should have in a presentation.
In a nutshell ’ Horses for Courses’. 

My previous posts have all been relative to building structures to support equipment to move toward a Bass that satisfies myself only.
Another set of ears might just revere in the colouration offered from the system if there was a deconstruction of my supports being demonstrated.

@pindac
I have three Japanese drumming CDs, and one in particular that I enjoy (Yakudo - Japanese Drums) which is more traditional sounding and organic of the three.

Isolation has proved to provide a fast articulate bass from my stand mounts, where the timbre and speed produced are more convincing to my mind of drums I have heard at live events. I used to regularly social dance to Latin music, at venues where live artists played.

The tone of the drum and the skin used over the drum frame are very clear and have such character, just as singers voices vary so much, the drums have their own timbre.

I had this discussion with another Agon member yesterday, we spoke about how as we refined our systems we can enjoy them at lower listening levels. I suggested that as the distortion was removed each step of our upgrades, for example for me power conditioning, the information in the sound produced was all still there at lower listening levels.
We enjoy listening at lower levels, also lowering distortion, because the noise floor and unwanted reflected energies were sufficiently removed as a process we were engaged in, because we didn't lose audible information at lower levels.
Not unlike listening later in the evening where both outside noises drop off and the air seems cooler and settles.

Some perceive that there is a lesser bass with isolation techniques implemented. The drivers are moving as they were before, however the resulting energies that deform the speaker cabinet will be attenuated to the point where the energies aren't transferred through the substrate.

The muddiness you refer to detracts from everything else, just as you said.
With isolation correctly implemented it's like to room boundaries are opened up, as the very walls themselves are decoupled from the bass.

Playing bass rich music at higher levels (let's face it, Rock music requires some ooomph to really get you there) where you cannot feel vibrations through your feet, through the chair you're sitting on, it's very different the first time you experience it. The resulting sound information that can be discerned is the pay off. 

Yes pindac, seems my ears favor that which you discuss, also.

@rixthetrick

Thanks again...My center channel speaker is only playing during 5.1. In 2 channel, it is silent. And yes, it must stay there.

The largest bass driver is the Sub with the spikes in the left corner. It has a corner bass trap behind it. Plus there are 3 GIK Acoustic panels above the couch on the back wall.

The stand is covered in an inert, matte finish. The turntables sit on MDF wood plates decoupled, but epoxied, to the rack.

The rug, I don't know. I was advised to put one there vs. having bare tile. There are no vibrations in the room, which is 36' long, 12' deep and 24' high. The acoustics in the room were pretty good even before I added the GIK panels.

The glass table, I'm not sure, but you might be on to something there. I keep stuff on the table to diffuse but it still is glass.

I guess I circle back to my original question. Will Townshend isolation products make an appreciable and remarkeable enough difference to justify its cost. Esp the ones under my 140 pound speakers.

Putting Nobsound springs under the Basis t.t. pods and Vertere MG-1's feet, that would be an inexpensive try but I'd be a bit afraid of instability, esp. under the very expensive Vertere MG-1.
But I am curious vs an expensive isolation platform.

@vinylshadow - Contact Townshend and ask them about their return policy, ask them about results on your particular model speakers, by customers.

I suspect the only people who could honestly answer that with any authority are those who have actually done it with your model speakers, which I have not.

Townshend Audio make a well engineered product, by most accounts many speakers like yours have had significant and impressive step up in performance. I cannot tell you with absolute certainty, or express experience with your speakers, to do so would be conjecture. And I don't know what your expectations are for that matter.
I'm not trying to be obtuse or combative, just trying to be forthright.

If it is in your budget, based upon my experience with isolation, it is a worthy investment with high reward to risk ratio.
Placing yourself in a situation where you can back out of the experiment with nominal risk (return policy in place) for your due diligence, would be advisable.

At an educated guess, I think trying the two main speakers, with the subs off just to determine if it's going to be a winner, will have you very impressed. Again, at a guess.

@rixthetrick
Thanks. Good idea. I also emailed my contact at Focal and asked for his thoughts.
As a curiousity, I downloaded the Hamm Seismograph app from Google Play. Figured I'd try what they did at Townshend. One think about those videos, I'm worried that if someone accidentally bumped hard into my speakers, they'd tip over!

Is turning a subs volume all the way to 0 the same as turning the sub off? Or by leaving the sub on even with no volume, its crossovers get in the way of the floor stading speakers crossovers? Or maybe the crossovers are set in stone in my Classe processor....

In any case, just goofing around. I'll do some more legwork. I appreciate your feedback.

I'd be very surprised if Focal had used Townshend products, and be even more surprised if in Europe where they make and sell a lot of Focals, that someone hadn't purchased the exact model of your speakers and used Townshend under them.

I would email Townshend Audio and ask them if they have any feedback from customers who use your speakers.

Depending on your subs, disconnecting the RCA connections, or power will suffice. It's just to stop them vibrating the room and undoing all the good isolation Townshend will provide. Then put the subs on isolation if it works.

Speaker bars where you already bolt the feet under your Focals, that's what I'd do first. No modifications to the speakers, and stability for safety of the speakers, should be a great way to start off.

vinylshadow, There will be no stability problems with Townshend. The best by far but also most expensive will be to put the turntables on Townshend Platforms or Podiums. Either one will be a superb base for a turntable. But you will probably be able to get almost as great performance for a lot less money from 4 Pods. 

The way the Pods work the top part is threaded into a plate on the top of the spring. The plate is very secure and so anything treaded into it will move and be isolated but will also be stable. It will move freely but not fall over. This will be the killer performance value way to go. Podiums or Platforms will be even better but maybe not quite as good a bargain. Unless of course you value the looks of one over the other, looks do count for something you know.

The stone bargain in cheap is Nobsound. These should also be stable enough but there is a simple solution in case you are still worried. Simply take some nice looking wood, acrylic or Corian and make your own bases for the springs. The springs fit perfectly into 1/4" holes. Do a test to see how many springs you will need, then cut your pieces to 3" or so diameter to be however stable you want, drill em and put together. 

I have done this to make extra ones from my leftover springs. Works great. These are not as good as Townshend. Not even close. But incredibly good for the money, so good there is nothing to recommend above Nobsound until you make the big jump in both price and performance to Townshend.

The main drawback to Nobsound is the lack of damping. Townshend has this dialed in. So with Nobsound a lot more depends on how willing and good you are at tweaking, experimenting, trial and error. Townshend are set and forget, once level you are done.

That's great, glad to hear it!   I sure look forward to coming home and listening.  Cheers!

@millercarbon @rixthetrick

Thanks guys...I got a reply from John at Townshend. I sent him the Imgur pics of my speakers and system and he didn't address it specifically but said the following very matter of factly: "Thank you for your enquiry,
We always recommend Isolating your speakers and floating your rack on our Seismic Corners,
I am very happy to supply a pair of our Size 3 Podiums with D Cells for $xxxx. I also recommend floating your stand on our Seismic Corners, can you kindly work out roughly the weight of stand + equipment on top please,  A Set of 4 F Type Seismic Corners will be great which I am very happy to supply for $xxxx. Isolating your Speakers + stand will offer total Isolation down to 3hz."--------After receiving this, I realized that there is barely any peripheral room beyond my speakers corners for the podium exterior. My right speaker is nearly against a wall, toed in and the left speakers right corner nearly abuts up against my Sound Anchors amp stand. Speakers cannot be moved.

So I have no choice but to use the isolation bars from left to right. Do they work exactly as good as the Podiums?
Does it count for anything that when I put my phone on the tile right in front of a speaker cranking music, that with a Hamm Seismograph app on, there is absolutely no vibration registered on the tile?

I ask as maybe all I'd need is to float my equipment rack on the Seismic Support Isolation Corners. That seems like an incredible bang for the buck and simpler than isolating both turntables, CD player, Classe processor, Model 12 amp and tube phono drive separately.

I guess the recommendation is to never use my sub in 2 channel supported only on its cones/spikes?

I'd have no problem putting my heavy Sub on Nobsound springs. If they could support 140 pounds.

Did someone mention that bass is lost with the Townshend podiums?

The only fly in the ointment is I don't see an easy way to get to the back right corner to lift the equipment rack to put an isolation support corner. There is no room to get in there. Like 10" unless I pull the rack away from the walls and slide it back? ....I could use a dolly to lift up the other accessible corners. Maybe I could use a Seismic Isolation Pod in that tough corner. But I'd have to remove the spike first. Tough!  Maybe pull the rack all the way out, put the Isolation Support Corner on the spike and slide it back? Will the pod rubber slide over tile and grout lines? .....Thinking cap time!
Sorry for all the stream of consciousness questions. I definitely want to do something but do the right thing. However I need to know the answers before I order....Thanks!

Pods, Bars, Platforms and Podiums are all basically the same technology. They all use essentially the same air-damped spring suspension isolation. The main difference is in how they connect. Podiums use a big massive and constrained layer damped plinth. Platforms the plinth is a different shape not as massive. Bars it is a bar and Pods go directly under whatever. Pods are really great bang for the buck, because you are not paying for the constrained layer damped plinth. Also the coating on this stuff is a real high tech durable marvel of a coating! 

Might seem you can do it all in one fell swoop with the rack. For sure that will be an improvement. But there is also a lot of vibration generated within the component itself. I learned this one a long time ago, and it has carried through with everything since. It is even hard to say for sure which is more susceptible, the turntable or CDP or DAC! I know that sounds counterintuitive but I tried Pods first under my turntable and was hard for John to talk me into trying under the amp, but then surprised when it was at least as good under the amp as turntable!

So if it is a budget thing I would do Pods directly under whatever is the most cherished source, and if they are all used pretty evenly then maybe do the rack instead. But we are throwing darts here. There is no wrong answer and it is a lot of work comparing trying to split hairs on which is better at this point.

Nobody believes me when I say this, they look at what I have done and it seems nuts, but I really do say don't sweat the small stuff. When people come over and hear how big a difference some of these things make then they understand. If the difference isn't pretty big I don't bother. Too many things really do make a big difference to waste time fretting over what might be maybe slightly even better.

The guy who I think you mean with bass loss, he had very inefficient Harbeth speakers with a small amp and very little bass to begin with. The thing about bass, a lot of what we experience as bass is vibrations coming through the floor up through the legs and butt. That is where we feel it, legs and butt. Put speakers on Podiums the bass actually has at least as much slam, dynamics and extension. But instead of feeling it in the legs it is all through the air and you feel it in your chest and gut. Whole different thing, much more like real music. But in his case he was loving that legs and butt bass and with nowhere near enough power for real bass he was left feeling a lack of bass. 

Another thing that happens, since the floor is not being excited the same way a lot of what we call room resonance is really the floor and walls vibrating and with Podiums there is so much less of this it is almost like adding tube traps. Mike Lavigne has an absolutely awesome room and coming home after being there the first time it was like mine sucks. Then I got Pods and Podiums and some other stuff, no room treatment at all but after visiting Mike this second time all of a sudden my room was a lot better. Still nowhere near the same league but still seriously better. So you can probably expect a lot more clean bass in the room than you would ever have thought possible. Assuming you are not marginal but starting with adequate bass to begin with you should be fine.

Laptop "ate" my first response before it got posted, tried to write it again and just now noticed the second time around I neglected to credit Rick with the bass difference. He let me know to expect this even before it happened. It is one of the ways you can be sure the speaker isolation is working, you feel the bass in your chest and gut more so than in the legs and butt. It is a big strange at first, finding yourself expecting one thing and getting another. Did not take long at all though to know which is better.

So I have no choice but to use the isolation bars from left to right. Do they work exactly as good as the Podiums?
Does it count for anything that when I put my phone on the tile right in front of a speaker cranking music, that with a Hamm Seismograph app on, there is absolutely no vibration registered on the tile?

I have not heard the podiums under speakers, the bars work very well.
So the substrate already doesn't move whatsoever? Even with your hand you feel nothing? even on your rack?

@rixthetrick

If I have my phone on the speaker and stomp on my tile, there are no vibrations registered on the phone. If I'm blasting music and place my phone on the tile in front of the speaker, there are no vibrations on the Seismograph. My tile is bonded to the concrete foundation of my house. It is dead solid and silent for vibrations.
But, if I'm cranking the music and put my phone on the speaker, there is a lot of vibration. On the rack where the tt's will sit, there is a small amount of vibration. Mostly on the Z plane. But will that get mitigated by my Basis tables silicone filled pods where my table can shimmy like speakers do on the Townshend podiums? My Vertere MG-1 table is a suspended table as well. Millercarbon's table itself does not look to be suspended. But it is on an isolation platform.

If I understand correctly though, isolating the speakers with Townshend bars will help the speakers sound much better. Is that correct?

@millercarbon makes a point. Even if my rack is on isolation corners, can the individual components still vibrate within its shelf? That would be important to address. John from Townshend made it sound like But, there is no room under my Classe processor/DAC or Model 12 for pods. The Classe takes up nearly the whole rack opening.
So the isolation corners seem like my only option for the equipment on my rack. The right back corner will be a bear to get one under.

The Mezzo Utopia's bass is solid. And down to 35Hz. 92.5dB sensitivity.

Couple things- all things heard cannot be measured, and all things measured cannot be heard. That doesn’t mean to ignore seismographs, etc, but it is not the be all and end all.

MC is absolutely right about vibrations coming from the components or speakers themselves. That’s why vibration platforms under amps, and other components in addition to speakers work so surprisingly well. I was amazed at how something called roller blocks under my phono stage improved the sound. They drain internal noise and isolate components. Under speakers, platforms drain internal noise, so regardless of how dead your tile is, there is still distortion inside the speaker cabinet. It seems to make everything sound clearer. You may think you lose bass, but it is distortion,  and what is left is real.

if you are in the US, I recommend you speak with Peter at Symposium Acoustics. He’s been creating solutions since 1992. Roller blocks, platforms, racks, etc. He doesn’t advertise, and goes by word of mouth. You can talk to him live and he loves this stuff.

He is also refreshingly honest. When I was doing my initial isolation work on my turntable, he told me his iso platform would not address my turntable isolation issues because it only weighs 10 pounds without putting counterweights on top of my plinth, which was impossible. So I went with a Townshend platform that did the trick with their lightest pods under their platform. It worked great. When I went next to my speakers, draining the noise worked best with symposium  Segue platforms. You can add roller blocks under them if you want, but once again Peter was so honest-by saying I may not want to elevate the tweeters an  inch+ and just go with the Segues. The Segues are the same height as the spikes I removed from my speakers.

Next was the phono stage, then my amp, and the only thing left is my power conditioner, but I need one thing that doesn’t move when I touch it for when I am organizing records. Everything floats, so when I see that my OCD tendencies make me nervous. Conditioner is on top of Herbie’s Tenderfeet, which do a little, but nothing like pods or roller blocks.

I also agree with MC about not worrying about every little thing in terms of what to do when. Every time I do something, it sounds better. I am amazed. No stereo salesmen ever mention this stuff, and it is very impactful.

Peter says in his experience, believe it or not, the biggest improvement he’s seen is with CD players! Too bad I don’t use one, but if I would have kept mine and used his products, I might not have disconnected it. No disrespect to John at Townshend, but he is not the designer of the products, and when I did have the opportunity to talk to Max Townshend, it was night and day. It is not easy, especially with them being on the other side of the pond for me. He is nice and responsive, but is very salesy and tends to exaggerate a bit. Max and Peter are very scientific and set expectations very modestlly,  which makes the improvements all the more surprising. Peter will take the time to help you. He even answered a question I had about my turntable mat even though he never pursued a solution for that (he thought about it at one time, but was too busy).

Seems you have options. Having a trial period to listen to products - that's been my suggestion all along.

@millercarbon @rixthetrick 

Well, apparently Townsend isolation corners WILL isolate every single component in my equipment rack. Got it from the source!
I asked John at Townshend: "As far as the isolation corners isolating my equipment rack down to 3Hz, what about the individual components. Will they also be isolated down to 3Hz? As I cannot fit isolation pods under most of the components."John: Yes everything on top of the rack is Isolated

Me: Just to clarify, when you said "Yes everything on top of the rack is Isolated" did you mean, all 9 components within each rack shelf of the Sound Anchors rack or just the components(turntables and tonearm etc) on the top of the rack. John: Once your rack is floating on our Seismic Corners everything that is on the rack is Isolated down to 3hz.------------
So what do you think MC? Pretty economical way to isolate 9 components vs 36 isolation pods!
The isolation corners and 4 speaker bars would do the trick. John also recommended speaker bars on my sub. However my sub is 18" wide?
But I'm thinking, getting 4 Nobsound springs(if they can handle 140 pounds) would be a much more economical way to proceed if they would not affect the Townshend isolation. 4 isolation pods would cost less than half as much as speaker bars...Thoughts?
The only issue here is getting to the right rear corner of my equipment rack. Unless I pull the rack  way out away from the back and side wall(see imgur dot com slash a slash FEI0zPQ to see the rack and walls) and successfully! slide the corner back in place over the tile and grout lines, no way can the rack corner be lifted to get the spike into the small isolation corner spike hole. Even if I follow John's advice about removing all heavy components and center speaker first...It's still 300+ pounds!

Well first, John is right- as far as he goes. Yes if the whole rack is on Pods then everything on the rack is isolated. But remember it is not just isolation from the environment, it is also isolating each component from everything else. The difference is each component generates its own internal vibrations. Very important.  

So even with the rack isolated there will still be improvement isolating each individual component. 

This is not an either/or thing. Building a system is all and/and/and. And. And andandand....  Neverending and's. Usually what happens is we run out of money way before we run out of and's to do. The rack is your only option since there is no room, and it is probably better than doing only whatever few components you can. Again: do what you can. Don't sweat the small stuff! 

Nobsound can handle way more than 140lbs. It is more like 50lbs per unit, or 200lbs altogether. At 140lbs you probably only need 5 or 6 of the 7 springs.  

In terms of cost-effectiveness, the main difference is Townshend is superbly damped while Nobsound isn't damped at all. Because of this the Pods, Bars or whatever will have a lot better tone, way better truth of timbre, and improved slam compared to Nobsound. All these are much more noticeable in midrange and treble where most of this information comes from and where our hearing is most sensitive. Way down low in the bass is always harder to hear.    

That is why I added springs first where I did, and waited until later to move from springs to Pods under my subs. Will be migrating from springs to Pods under my subs next so we will know soon enough. Meantime I would say if you have to cut corners anywhere use springs under the subs and Pods, etc everywhere else.  

As for getting them under the rack, a picture's worth a thousand words. Meantime I have four choice words for you: leverage is your friend.

As I previously mentioned, I would call Peter at Symposium Acoustics and see wheat he thinks. He talks about “best bang for the buck” all the time. He might recommend roller blocks, platforms, or some combo, and if he can’t fit, he won’t force it.

@millercarbon
I understand and thank you. So now there are several considerations about the rack isolation. And what is most important. For me, it's my 2 turntables, and their tonearms and cartridges and my tube phono drive(which there is room for pods). I don't think my Vertere turntable motor drive that supplies the 33 and 45 rpm signal to the turntable motor needs additional isolation. Or at least expensive isolation? Maybe springs? The t.t.'s are up on top and have their own suspension systems. They may be ok...No room for anything with my Classe Processor unfortunately. Only an 1/8" or so.... For my DVD/CD player, only about 1.5" or so room. Currently with an air bladder platform with a leak undeneath. So not functional. Might as well remove it.

As far as the Nobsound's, I was only considering those for the Sub. If I only use the sub for home theater(or low volume bass add on for 2 channel), would the springs be satisfactory enough?My Mezzo's bass is really good. But maybe with proper isolation, the sub might be worth using fuller in 2 channel. I don't know. I never turn it up more than 5% or so.

Leverage will work(a dolly) under the accessible front corners and left rear corner pretty easily. Getting leverage to the right rear corner will be super tough. I wonder if I can get a car jack to fit. There's about 1.5" of space below the base bars....I only need to raise each corner about 3/4".

So the isolation corners will isolate my rack components from my speakers and maybe my sub. Fingers crossed that my turntables well designed suspension systems mitigate their own vibrations.

After the isolation corners, then it's a question of where to place Pods. Or maybe Nobsound springs? They are 1.49"(I cannot find information on how tall the Pods are) so they will just barely fit under my Marantz DVD/CD player. Are they worth putting under my Node 2i streamer box? Or Rowland center speaker mono amp? Or P.I. Audio UberBuss power conditioner? Or Dish network satellite box? Or my Rowland Model 12 monoblock amps?

I just pumped up the Townshend Seismic Sink that was under my Basis turntable and it has not sunk. Yet. Let's see tomorrow.

My system currently sounds so great now.

With isolation- I feel hot and cold(can't explain).... Yeah down in my soul yeah(can't explain).

My review mentions something similar. A lot of familiar music has bits I was looking forward, expecting a certain sound, only to be underwhelmed. That could account for your cold feeling. Took a while to realize the expected sound was all added harmonic resonance and/or hardness from the old stuff. When every instrument sounds more like its natural character, sax is more clearly sax, guitar more clearly guitar, on and on, none of them sounds colored just clear, then you know it is good. That is probably your down in the soul part.

All of the things you are talking about will work great. It does little good to worry much about which will be better. I am a low-hanging fruit kind of guy. I would think more about which will be easier. The rack sounds really hard, turntables easier, and yes Pods will be better, turntable suspension notwithstanding. 

Your rack space is so tight you might want to do the rack in spite of the effort. You know what a house jack is? Screw jack? So you get a couple great big nuts, short length of threaded rod, make a custom screw jack sized just for this one task. Pretty clever, eh?😁

Leverage will work(a dolly) under the accessible front corners and left rear corner pretty easily. Getting leverage to the right rear corner will be super tough. I wonder if I can get a car jack to fit. There's about 1.5" of space below the base bars....I only need to raise each corner about 3/4".

Even if you don't have a trolley jack to lift it, I recall it was plenty heavy (I haven't scrolled back up to see) speaking of leverage, maybe you could use a simple bar and block with the help of a friend to lever it up, chock it, get your isolator under it and remove the chock?
Be sure and if you do use some lever bar with a block as a pivot point, use something soft not to scratch the underside of your pretty and expensive rack.

@tvad 
Thanks for the air shim link! wow. That would be perfect as there is barely enough room even when the rack is slid out a bit for me to get back there. The rack itself is 300 pounds so I'll need to remove the 100 pound center speaker first. But lifting a corner might be easier and I just need to lift like 3/4" I'm psyched.
As far as my speakers, no room for podiums so I'll get the bars. I'll tilt the back forward, remove the spikes, and put one bar under and then tilt the speaker backward, remove the front spikes, and put the other bar under. This way I can keep the position the speakers are in now. But those sliders are so inexpensive I may get them just to have handy. 

@millercarbon
"I feel hot and cold(can't explain) yeah down to my soul yeah(can't explain) is lyrics from the Who's I Can't Explain! 

I am going to ask John at Townshend how tall his pods are as I only have 1.5" for certain components. But honestly, would the Nobsound springs give enough vibration control to individual components? Lets say 75% of what the Pods would do?

I don't know if I want to spend $1100+ on speaker bars for my sub.  Springs might have to do. 

Buying isolation platters for my turntables that already have suspension systems.... Gotta think that one over. 

Pods would raise the height of the tables. Had custom acrylic dustcovers made for both. They might not fit over all the way down with pods. And 4 pods on 4 pods seems unstable. 

Maybe. Maybe not.

Each air shim is rated for 300#. So, use two. Done.

Great idea...I’ll need to swing the rack out 2 -3 feet to change components etc and to mount the isolation corners so I can use those sliders on the pods so I can slide the rack along the tile and grout lines and back against the wall. Awesome.

As I've mentioned elsewhere I have the Nobsound spring footers, tried them under my Thiels.


I was blown away by the effect at first: the speakers just disappeared and soundstaged even better, a sense of distortion was reduced, more insight in to recording etc.


My main problem was it came with a lowering of dynamics, palpability, density and punch to the sound.  It became more ghostly, more electrostatic.   So I choose to generally not use the footers.


But the GOOD qualities from the experience intrigue me so much I want to try the Townshend bars, fingers crossed that it manages a best of both worlds - the speaker disappearing act but without the same hit on punch and dynamics.   The Nobsound springs are a pretty crude take on spring isolation, whereas the Townshend are much more refined for their purpose.

Interesting...I wonder if the Nobsounds would have a positive, long term effect on individual components or fall into the same situation as your speaker experience. And pods are 1000x better than the springs. 


millercarbon would know best. But it sounded like components improved significantly with the springs. 

Sadly for me, John at Townshend just told me that at their shortest the Pods are 2". I need 1.5" so the springs are my only option for racked components. 

I can swing Pods under my sub but, well, I don't know what to do!

@vinylshadow - I don't know why you are not calling Peter at Symposium. He has one product called a svelte shelf that is really thin (I think a half inch or so) that might be perfect for you. It isolates and removes vibrations. He could be the answer to your problems, and if he can't, he'll tell you that. Rollerblocks are I think 1.3".

Check it out:

https://symposiumusa.com/main.shtml

It was good to see a Foam used as Construction Layer for Isolation on the Symposium Products.
I have been using various foams with different compressive strengths for multiple years, these are the most impressive Materials I have used to date as a layer in a construction of materials to produce a support plinth.

I have a Pre Amp seatd directely onto a aerated highly compressible foam, to a point load the foam offers almost Zero Resistence to compressing.
This support lets the Pre' deliver a very clean and detailed presentation.
To date adding any other materials, to be used in combination with the Aerated Foam will show a smearing of the finest details.
If a air flow is not needed to enter the casing from the underside and the unlevel seating of device is not too off putting, this method is worth a investigation.