Townshend seismic platform under my turntable was an incredible improvement. Just be sure to match the weight to the podium version selected. Doesn't remove footfalls however. To do that, I had to put my table on a wall mounted shelf. The improvement even without the shelf was so significant that I was willing to live with the footfalls and use the platform.
I also use Symposium products under my speakers, amp and phono stage and noticed nice improvements there as well. They clean up noise. The advantage to them is that they drain nose internal to a component and isolate it. That's why I like it for speakers. They make platforms with multicomponent levels and roller blocks that isolate by making the boxes float.
Remember though, proper isolation does not "add" anything, it removes the bad and lets the good come through. So, if you have a well isolated set up, rack or whatever, the improvement may be less. |
Couple things- all things heard cannot be measured, and all things measured cannot be heard. That doesn’t mean to ignore seismographs, etc, but it is not the be all and end all.
MC is absolutely right about vibrations coming from the components or speakers themselves. That’s why vibration platforms under amps, and other components in addition to speakers work so surprisingly well. I was amazed at how something called roller blocks under my phono stage improved the sound. They drain internal noise and isolate components. Under speakers, platforms drain internal noise, so regardless of how dead your tile is, there is still distortion inside the speaker cabinet. It seems to make everything sound clearer. You may think you lose bass, but it is distortion, and what is left is real.
if you are in the US, I recommend you speak with Peter at Symposium Acoustics. He’s been creating solutions since 1992. Roller blocks, platforms, racks, etc. He doesn’t advertise, and goes by word of mouth. You can talk to him live and he loves this stuff.
He is also refreshingly honest. When I was doing my initial isolation work on my turntable, he told me his iso platform would not address my turntable isolation issues because it only weighs 10 pounds without putting counterweights on top of my plinth, which was impossible. So I went with a Townshend platform that did the trick with their lightest pods under their platform. It worked great. When I went next to my speakers, draining the noise worked best with symposium Segue platforms. You can add roller blocks under them if you want, but once again Peter was so honest-by saying I may not want to elevate the tweeters an inch+ and just go with the Segues. The Segues are the same height as the spikes I removed from my speakers.
Next was the phono stage, then my amp, and the only thing left is my power conditioner, but I need one thing that doesn’t move when I touch it for when I am organizing records. Everything floats, so when I see that my OCD tendencies make me nervous. Conditioner is on top of Herbie’s Tenderfeet, which do a little, but nothing like pods or roller blocks.
I also agree with MC about not worrying about every little thing in terms of what to do when. Every time I do something, it sounds better. I am amazed. No stereo salesmen ever mention this stuff, and it is very impactful.
Peter says in his experience, believe it or not, the biggest improvement he’s seen is with CD players! Too bad I don’t use one, but if I would have kept mine and used his products, I might not have disconnected it. No disrespect to John at Townshend, but he is not the designer of the products, and when I did have the opportunity to talk to Max Townshend, it was night and day. It is not easy, especially with them being on the other side of the pond for me. He is nice and responsive, but is very salesy and tends to exaggerate a bit. Max and Peter are very scientific and set expectations very modestlly, which makes the improvements all the more surprising. Peter will take the time to help you. He even answered a question I had about my turntable mat even though he never pursued a solution for that (he thought about it at one time, but was too busy). |
As I previously mentioned, I would call Peter at Symposium Acoustics and see wheat he thinks. He talks about “best bang for the buck” all the time. He might recommend roller blocks, platforms, or some combo, and if he can’t fit, he won’t force it. |
@vinylshadow - I don't know why you are not calling Peter at Symposium. He has one product called a svelte shelf that is really thin (I think a half inch or so) that might be perfect for you. It isolates and removes vibrations. He could be the answer to your problems, and if he can't, he'll tell you that. Rollerblocks are I think 1.3". Check it out: https://symposiumusa.com/main.shtml |
@steakster - wow- you know a hell of a lot more than me about Symposium. My thoughts with my speakers on Segues are two fold- 1) they get rid of/drain internal speaker noise while providing some isolation, and 2, I did not want my speakers being unstable in any way as they are tall and thin. I don’t want them to float like my components do. Peter had to custom size my Segues to have about 2-21/2 “ around the bottom to add stability.
Not sure what you mean by air borne vibrations. The internal vibrations of components are drained by roller blocks or platforms as are external vibrations from the floor.
@vinylshadow- glad to hear you will check with Peter at Symposium. IMHO though, the turntable isolation should be addressed first, but as MC says, it’s and and and and and......you can never correct noise emanating from the source. That noise just gets magnified down the chain.
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@vinylshadow - see what Peter at Symposium says about the amps. I have my amp and phono stage on Roller Block Jrs because they drain and isolate. He calls everything vibration control, because that is what you are doing in either situation.
Since my components only weigh 11 and 29 pounds respectively, the Jrs, work and I only need 3 of them each. 3 points define a plane and will provide stability.
Now, just to muddy (no pun intended) the waters, as MC says, there is always more you can do. You can put a platform under or on top of the roller blocks, depending on the situation (under for turntables and amps, on top of for speakers) to add additional treatment. It is not black and white, and you can go all the way up to platforms that are the most effective that cost > $2K. There are even levels within the roller block types by changing the bearings. They have increasing levels of purity and performance. I think all his roller blocks now are being delivered with the mid level ones made of Tungsten Carbide, and you can get what he calls super balls that have purity down to the millionths of the particles. Even the Tungsten ones feel incredible solid and perfectly spherical.
To give you an extreme example, a friend of mine (who happened to introduce me to Peter) got a very expensive turntable and he asked Peter for the ideal treatment for it in his situation. He has the big Roller Blocks with the super balls on top of a Segue platform sitting on top of a Segue Iso platform. In my mind, severe overkill, audible difference with each additional treatment, perhaps, worth the 5-6 times the cost of just roller block jrs with the tungsten carbide, not in my mind. But Peter calls that set up perfect, and that's what my friend was aiming for. I don't know how many thousands he has spent on vibration control with Symposium and Townshend (probably 1/2 of what my TOTAL stereo investment is), but he tells me he wishes he could do more, but is limited by the vertical space where his components are placed. Everyone (except maybe Mike Lavigne) has space, spouse who limited my acoustical treatment options, or financial limitations. As Clint Eastwood says, "A man has to know his limitations".
Bottom line, ask Peter for his opinion for best bang for the buck for everything you want to do and he'll ask you questions about the environment. Then he will give you options and recommendations and his best combo deal and save you some money shipping it all together. However, as he told me, most people start with one thing, are pleasantly surprised and keep going on and on. He told me one guy yelled at him because he had to keep buying. That why he even sells bearing upgrades from basic to Tungsten carbide to super balls. You can go nuts with this stuff, but as long as you can appreciate and afford the improvements, go for it. I went from turntable to speakers to phono stage to amp. Power conditioner is the only thing that doesn't float on my wood credenza (wood is best for vibration drainage under a platform or roller blocks) or wall shelf for my turntable. I don't want to have that floating because I use it to put records on when sorting them and when the components move when I touch them,I see the wires move in the back and it makes my OCD tendencies flare up, even though they stabilize almost instantaneously. Seeing all those power cords moving would drive me nuts. Plus, some wires are very precariously positioned in the back and moving them in some cases can make my speaker cables move and hit the floor. A big no-no.
Good luck and enjoy the dramatic improvements. |
@vinylshadow - I would talk to Peter at Symposium. He takes the time to understand the exact application and make a recommendation. He is very honest and actually told me his solution couldn’t help my turntable because it was so light unless I put counterweights on top of the plinth of my turntable, which would not have worked for me.
when I decided to treat my speakers, phono stage and amp, I went with Symposium, with a stealth segue for the speakers and roller blocks for the amps. I noticed the amount of improvement most with the turntable, next with the speakers and lastly with the amps. He was much less expensive than Townshend pods for the amps (they wouldn’t have fit under my phono stage anyhow) and for the bars Townshend proposed under the speakers (and that would have also raised the height of the drivers which I didn’t want to do). So there is logical reasons for each decision. Both companies make excellent products and in most cases, both will do a very nice job, just make sure it fits your applications and budget. You can always add more to these treatments from Symposium- not so much with Townshend.
I like Symposium’s accessibility since I live in the US and can reach Peter easily via telephone. Talking to Max Townshend is not as easy as he is experimenting/developing in the lab more it seems. He has created a wide variety of products over the years, all excellent from what I have read. Peter has been laser focused on isolation/vibration control since 1992. |
I put a Symposium Segue Stealth Platform under my KEF R500s because the height of the platforms exactly matched the height of the KEF supplied spikes/discs. I did not want to alter the height of the drivers at all, which would definitely change the sound. Townshend would have necessitated that (plus Segues were a good bit less $$).
The sound improvement was immediately noticeable. Much clearer, seemed to clean up sound that was audible but not definable and more precise. They keep the isolation and height the spikes provide because or the multiple layers within the Segues and they transfer the vibration out of the cabinet to my suspended wood floor. Well worth the investment. I could put rollerblocks under them, which would make them float and give some more isolation, but that would raise them, which would change the sound from what KEF intended. |
Hey @prof - that's why I had the platforms built about 2" longer and wider than the thin base of my KEF's. Aside from all the other reasons I mentioned, I was too nervous they's tilt over and I wasn't comfortable putting spikes/disks on top of a Townshend floating platform.
Nothing is perfect, but the Symposium Segues can be cut to fit at no extra charge, and should be a nice improvement. Tell Peter your floor type, speaker and environment and he will be honest with you about a recommendation and what to expect. |
@prof- I was talking about for the Josephs. As i have mentioned, I have used products from both companies, depending on the need and prices, I am comfortable with both companies. |
Ideally what you want is a floating effect isolating the component. In addition, if you can also get some vibration transfer out of the boxes (everything except turntables) that is ideal. Floating doesn't work for me with my thin floor standing speakers, so I went with a multilayer platform that does an excellent job transferring vibration with some isolation, but not as much as podiums or roller blocks.
The only product I've seen that does both are the Symposium roller blocks. They are a little more expensive that Townshend podiums, however for most weight applications, you only need 3 of them (3 points determine a plane for those who forgot geometry) and they become a little less expensive.
Under my turntable where I don't need vibration transfer, the podiums work great, and I have them screwed into a seismic platform (sitting on top of a wall mounted shelf screwed into the wood studs). That makes it much easier to level and you don't have to worry about optimal podium placement. This platform however is solid powder coated steel without sublayers, so there is no vibration transfer which is ok since there is vibrating box. Power supply is separate. It adds a couple hundred to the price, but it is worth it to me. |
Hey @benzman - big Pat Metheny fan. How do you rate this album's content, not just SQ? I have so many of his albums that some of them are pretty similar to prior releases. For example, I have the From This Place recent album which I bought because I hadn't gotten anything new from him for a long time. It is a double album and it is solid for sure, but not much different from some of his other stuff and is not really distinguished like the White Album, American Garage, Offramp, Watercolors. Some other excellent ones, although great, I would not be able to tell you what album a given song came from - Still Life Talking, Letter From Home, Secret Story, Imaginary Day, We Live Here.....It could be that they were mostly only available on CD when I bought them, so they never get played on my stereo.
Every time I buy an album where someone raves about SQ it seems like I am not big on the actual music. I am not trying to demo my stereo, just like listening to music. Of course excellent SQ is a big plus, but not the primary criteria, so your honest opinion is appreciated. |
I don’t have First Circle. Not sure why I never heard much about it. Sounds like you’d recommend I get that before Side eye NYC. Now let’s see how hard it is to find it on new vinyl. |
Townshend and vibration control in general, and the Townshend seismic platform made a huge improvement for me under my turntable and I have treated my speakers with Symposium platforms because they are more stable since my speakers are tall and thin and I am paranoid that they would fall over if touched standing on top of the podiums or bars. Even put Symposium roller blocks under my amp and phono stage. Improvement not nearly as much as the turntable, which was a lot more than the speakers, but I think they still improved the amp and phono stage a bit.
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