moby2004- Yes you can adjust speaker position of the Podiums with the speakers on them. Just keep in mind each corner being on springs moves not only up and down but side to side. So after moving them be sure to check each corner to make sure they all still have clearance in every direction. I like to go corner to corner, give it a little nudge, and if it binds or rubs then adjust by pushing the base of the pod. Not the Podium, just the very bottom part. Being on tile you lucked out this is much easier than carpet.
Tobes- That is by the way a good description of the sound. I have now heard these under 3 sets of speakers, all with similarly excellent results. The improvement with Brandon's Pendragon XL was like a whole system/room overhaul! When you talk about noticing new things in familiar music, for sure. It has been a while since I went through that with mine. When we set Brandon's up I heard the improvement but he is of course far more familiar with his room and music and was leaning forward mouth literally open gushing and finding it hard to believe how much more he was hearing. I was watching laughing, remembering what it was like for me. It really is hard to believe something like this can make so much difference.
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The difference is cosmetic/aesthetic so get whichever one you think will look the best. To my eyes as long as the Podium is at least as wide as the speaker then they have a balanced appearance. If you go up in size to the next bigger one it gets you nothing in performance just a different look. Because drivers are mostly on the front baffle this puts the center of gravity just a little bit forward. What this means is if you get a bigger Podium you will have a bit of room to put the speaker a bit farther back on the Podium. But again this is all for how it looks. They are so easily adjustable you will be able to easily balance perfectly either way.
Anything like this I always call John Hannant at Townshend, he has always had great suggestions and has yet to steer me wrong. |
Max can slaughter Herbie's with one arm tied behind his back. |
Sure. Why not? The only question is how? Townshend accomplish leveling on Podiums by turning a knob, and on Pods by turning the top of the Pod. Either way allows convenient and accurate leveling. My turntables were on Pods, my speakers on Podiums. Both perfectly level. |
The pictures I saw prof it looks like all you would do is remove the spikes, leave the outriggers, and put them on a Podium wide enough for the outriggers. Maybe use a shim in back, same thickness as the outrigger in front. Something like that. |
The thing to keep in mind is that while the speakers appear unstable because they rock easily, this appearance is totally deceptive. They will move easily only a few degrees. Then the springs compress or bottom out enough to stop further tilting. At this point the speaker is no more or less stable than otherwise.
You can prove this to yourself. When setting them up on the Podium first take one and tilt it to the balance point. Then repeat this same balance point test on the Podium. You will find the exact same angle.
I did this myself, "walking" my Moabs onto the Podiums. The angle they have to be tilted in order to fall over is so much greater than what the Podium allows this is a total non-starter.
But, it helps to know this. Mike Lavigne didn’t, and you shoulda seen his reaction when he put his hand on the side of my Moab to feel for cabinet resonance! Expecting rock solid it moved so easily he was startled and tried to stop it falling over. The crowd roared with laughter. I missed it, sad to say. But Rick and the others sure had a good laugh. So no worries. |
vinylshadow-
Although, I may leave the spikes on initially to tip the speakers right
side up and slip the podium underneath, then tip the left side up and
skid the podium under. Then take all spikes off. Or maybe take the right
spikes off and leave the left ones on as a pivot and slide the podium
under and over to the left spikes. Hmmm. Good luck. You will find the Podiums very hard to move around once loaded. The feet are flat and stick to carpet like crazy. Hardwood, tile, vinyl, no problem. Carpet? Forgetaboutit! What worked for me, measure first to know exactly where the speakers are now, then move them and place Podiums exactly where they should be. Adjust as low as they will go. Then with cones or gliders or whatever affixed to protect the bottom, tilt the speakers and "walk" them onto the Podiums. Calls for a good sense of balance, but I was able to do this all by myself with 150lb Moabs. Once on the Podiums you can tilt and remove your gliders or whatever if needed. It is nice to have a helper here. Usually due to drivers the speakers center of gravity is somewhat forward of dead center. So I like to have the speakers centered left to right but a couple inches to the back. You can however have them perfectly centered, there is easily enough adjustment to get them level either way. Purely a matter of taste. Once this is done then I measure again this time to the speaker corners to get them perfectly equidistant and symmetrical, with whatever toe in they had before. This for me was the hardest part, but frankly I am my own worst enemy here being so OCD even a 1/16" of an inch drives me crazy! Only once the speakers are where you want them at the base, then start turning knobs to raise them up. I go around giving one full turn at a time to all 4 corners, until they start to float. Then another full turn just to be sure. Then level front to back and side to side. Leveling is the coolest part, it is a treat to be able to so perfectly level so easily! Especially after all the other hard work! |
Not quite. I still use BDR mostly to avoid scratching the Moabs. Whole lot easier to move around with Cones on there. Then also use BDR Round Things UNDER the Podiums. They serve as high tech furniture gliders.
In any case BDR are not isolation. They are extremely stiff and highly damped, but in no way are they isolation.
Probably the way John recommends is best. The only way to know for sure though is to try. I asked if it was worth it and my back said, "Sounds real good just the way it is." |
prof, One of the guys I'm helping off-line is using them on carpet and told me they were better with something under them. Sorry but it's been some months and I forget who and what. Butcher block, tile, or marble, something like that. He used a slab of it, that I know for sure. Anyway I was a little surprised it made any difference but then a lot of things are like that so I tried anyway and sure enough, better. In my case instead of a slab I used the same BDR Round Things that were under the Moabs before. Only now they are under the Townshend. Picked up even a little bit more dynamics and detail. Hard to believe. Probably furniture coasters would work, and you will prefer them anyway as if the Bars are like Podiums on the bottom they will be a LOT easier to slide and tweak position that way. |
vinylshadow- My podiums should arrive soon so I will measure but I'm guessing they will be 1"+ closer to the floor.
Podiums have level adjustment both top and Botton. Together you can probably get close to an inch. Or you can do like I did and put a coaster under each corner. You can also put something between the speaker and the Podium platform. There's all kinds of options. |
prof, Your imaging will be at least as good. The only thing is Podiums add another level to positioning. Each corner has to be free to move side to side as well as up and down. This makes them a little more bother to get everything just right. Once done though getting them perfectly level is a breeze, and they do stay put.
Also I think the solidity to the sound you are missing, you will probably realize wasn't so much sound as vibrations transmitting through the floor up into your legs and butt. The feeling with springs is different, you feel the bass more in the chest and body. There's also a hardness that goes away, and this too diminishes the sense of solidity.
I think you will probably find however that there is so much greater sense of real instrumental textures that it is easy to adapt. Also it seems to me at any rate that some of the slam that went away with plain springs comes back with Podiums. Not all, it will never be the same, but for me anyway it sure was easy to adapt and prefer. The whole presentation with Podiums just feels so much more right and real. |
If you like what you're hearing now Townshend will be a revelation. Everything you are hearing now, only due to the damping you will get back some of the slam impact feel, probably a bit more extension, and find an amazing improvement in being able to differentiate the characteristic tone and timbre of each instrument. Sax in particular is wonderful, the full body of the horn combined with the reedy zing of the mouthpiece is rendered so much more correct it is hard to believe. Clarinet, violins, horns, ditto.
I have a fair amount of that kind of music and find myself far more drawn to it now than ever before, something I am sure is due to everything sounding so much more like what it really is. Satchmo Plays King Oliver now, holy smokes!
Podiums are the best, probably because the platform is so well engineered. This is evident even during unpacking, when you will notice the constrained layer damped material is dense and extremely dead. But they are all based on fundamentally the same technology and components- the air damped bellows spring pod - and so a lot has to do with the specific application. The 8 hours time diff is a hassle but it might be worth a call to Townshend to talk with John Hannant. He knows this stuff inside out and has been a huge help to me, and others here as well.
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The space is much greater than 3/16". The true available space is from the shelf it sits on to the actual chassis bottom. Most components are on factory feet that are at least 1/2" high. So it gets tight but you really probably have about half an inch available. This is probably just enough for some Nobsound springs. I mean just the springs. Not the whole setup with the footer holding the springs, just the bare springs alone.
Best part about this is, won't cost you one thin dime. Get your Nobsound springs for the motor or whatever, you will have some springs left over after setting them up for that load. Take the leftover springs, squeeze them down and put them one at a time under the Classe. Start with one in each corner, just keep adding until the thing starts to float. Could be wrong but I bet there is just enough room for this to work. Don't cost nothin' but time. What have you got to lose? 😉 |
The main benefit or theory is to allow the component to move on its own, in other words in isolation. A lot of vibration is generated within the component itself. Even with amps. With Pods under the rack the amp excites the rack, which while isolated from the floor is still going to vibrate thanks to the amp, and feed this right back into the amp. Pods directly under the amp will better isolate the amp.
Symposium Iso uses a conical spring damped with foam, similar to Townshend spring damped with an air valve. The Townshend design seems more elegant to me but the proof is in the pudding and I’ve not tried Symposium to know for sure exactly in what ways they differ. |
I don't think amps vibrate on their own, do they? They do. Everything does. |
If you have the budget for it I think you will find Pods make a big difference under the amp. My Melody is on a 150lb slab of granite, which in turn is on BDR Cones, and it has BDR Round Things screwed into both sides of the chassis, and the whole thing is on a BDR Shelf. Pretty darn good I thought. Then I replaced one set of Cones with Nobsound. This was a lot better. Then I upgraded from Nobsound to Pods. This was hugely better!
So even though already on a lot of really good vibration control the Pods still made a really nice improvement.
Went through pretty much the same course of upgrades with my phono stage and motor controller, with pretty much the same results. They were all extensively tweaked out and in good shape yet Pods made them all even better.
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My review mentions something similar. A lot of familiar music has bits I was looking forward, expecting a certain sound, only to be underwhelmed. That could account for your cold feeling. Took a while to realize the expected sound was all added harmonic resonance and/or hardness from the old stuff. When every instrument sounds more like its natural character, sax is more clearly sax, guitar more clearly guitar, on and on, none of them sounds colored just clear, then you know it is good. That is probably your down in the soul part.
All of the things you are talking about will work great. It does little good to worry much about which will be better. I am a low-hanging fruit kind of guy. I would think more about which will be easier. The rack sounds really hard, turntables easier, and yes Pods will be better, turntable suspension notwithstanding.
Your rack space is so tight you might want to do the rack in spite of the effort. You know what a house jack is? Screw jack? So you get a couple great big nuts, short length of threaded rod, make a custom screw jack sized just for this one task. Pretty clever, eh?😁 |
Well first, John is right- as far as he goes. Yes if the whole rack is on Pods then everything on the rack is isolated. But remember it is not just isolation from the environment, it is also isolating each component from everything else. The difference is each component generates its own internal vibrations. Very important.
So even with the rack isolated there will still be improvement isolating each individual component.
This is not an either/or thing. Building a system is all and/and/and. And. And andandand.... Neverending and's. Usually what happens is we run out of money way before we run out of and's to do. The rack is your only option since there is no room, and it is probably better than doing only whatever few components you can. Again: do what you can. Don't sweat the small stuff!
Nobsound can handle way more than 140lbs. It is more like 50lbs per unit, or 200lbs altogether. At 140lbs you probably only need 5 or 6 of the 7 springs.
In terms of cost-effectiveness, the main difference is Townshend is superbly damped while Nobsound isn't damped at all. Because of this the Pods, Bars or whatever will have a lot better tone, way better truth of timbre, and improved slam compared to Nobsound. All these are much more noticeable in midrange and treble where most of this information comes from and where our hearing is most sensitive. Way down low in the bass is always harder to hear.
That is why I added springs first where I did, and waited until later to move from springs to Pods under my subs. Will be migrating from springs to Pods under my subs next so we will know soon enough. Meantime I would say if you have to cut corners anywhere use springs under the subs and Pods, etc everywhere else.
As for getting them under the rack, a picture's worth a thousand words. Meantime I have four choice words for you: leverage is your friend.
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Laptop "ate" my first response before it got posted, tried to write it again and just now noticed the second time around I neglected to credit Rick with the bass difference. He let me know to expect this even before it happened. It is one of the ways you can be sure the speaker isolation is working, you feel the bass in your chest and gut more so than in the legs and butt. It is a big strange at first, finding yourself expecting one thing and getting another. Did not take long at all though to know which is better. |
Pods, Bars, Platforms and Podiums are all basically the same technology. They all use essentially the same air-damped spring suspension isolation. The main difference is in how they connect. Podiums use a big massive and constrained layer damped plinth. Platforms the plinth is a different shape not as massive. Bars it is a bar and Pods go directly under whatever. Pods are really great bang for the buck, because you are not paying for the constrained layer damped plinth. Also the coating on this stuff is a real high tech durable marvel of a coating!
Might seem you can do it all in one fell swoop with the rack. For sure that will be an improvement. But there is also a lot of vibration generated within the component itself. I learned this one a long time ago, and it has carried through with everything since. It is even hard to say for sure which is more susceptible, the turntable or CDP or DAC! I know that sounds counterintuitive but I tried Pods first under my turntable and was hard for John to talk me into trying under the amp, but then surprised when it was at least as good under the amp as turntable!
So if it is a budget thing I would do Pods directly under whatever is the most cherished source, and if they are all used pretty evenly then maybe do the rack instead. But we are throwing darts here. There is no wrong answer and it is a lot of work comparing trying to split hairs on which is better at this point.
Nobody believes me when I say this, they look at what I have done and it seems nuts, but I really do say don't sweat the small stuff. When people come over and hear how big a difference some of these things make then they understand. If the difference isn't pretty big I don't bother. Too many things really do make a big difference to waste time fretting over what might be maybe slightly even better.
The guy who I think you mean with bass loss, he had very inefficient Harbeth speakers with a small amp and very little bass to begin with. The thing about bass, a lot of what we experience as bass is vibrations coming through the floor up through the legs and butt. That is where we feel it, legs and butt. Put speakers on Podiums the bass actually has at least as much slam, dynamics and extension. But instead of feeling it in the legs it is all through the air and you feel it in your chest and gut. Whole different thing, much more like real music. But in his case he was loving that legs and butt bass and with nowhere near enough power for real bass he was left feeling a lack of bass.
Another thing that happens, since the floor is not being excited the same way a lot of what we call room resonance is really the floor and walls vibrating and with Podiums there is so much less of this it is almost like adding tube traps. Mike Lavigne has an absolutely awesome room and coming home after being there the first time it was like mine sucks. Then I got Pods and Podiums and some other stuff, no room treatment at all but after visiting Mike this second time all of a sudden my room was a lot better. Still nowhere near the same league but still seriously better. So you can probably expect a lot more clean bass in the room than you would ever have thought possible. Assuming you are not marginal but starting with adequate bass to begin with you should be fine. |
vinylshadow, There will be no stability problems with Townshend. The best by far but also most expensive will be to put the turntables on Townshend Platforms or Podiums. Either one will be a superb base for a turntable. But you will probably be able to get almost as great performance for a lot less money from 4 Pods.
The way the Pods work the top part is threaded into a plate on the top of the spring. The plate is very secure and so anything treaded into it will move and be isolated but will also be stable. It will move freely but not fall over. This will be the killer performance value way to go. Podiums or Platforms will be even better but maybe not quite as good a bargain. Unless of course you value the looks of one over the other, looks do count for something you know.
The stone bargain in cheap is Nobsound. These should also be stable enough but there is a simple solution in case you are still worried. Simply take some nice looking wood, acrylic or Corian and make your own bases for the springs. The springs fit perfectly into 1/4" holes. Do a test to see how many springs you will need, then cut your pieces to 3" or so diameter to be however stable you want, drill em and put together.
I have done this to make extra ones from my leftover springs. Works great. These are not as good as Townshend. Not even close. But incredibly good for the money, so good there is nothing to recommend above Nobsound until you make the big jump in both price and performance to Townshend.
The main drawback to Nobsound is the lack of damping. Townshend has this dialed in. So with Nobsound a lot more depends on how willing and good you are at tweaking, experimenting, trial and error. Townshend are set and forget, once level you are done. |
Any thoughts? I was thinking to use the same under my turntable, it sits on 3 spikes as well, with small washer like metal rings underneath. For under a turntable? Anything around that price I would go for Nobsound, they will be way better than those cork-rubber things. And for a lot less. Nobsound are about $30/set of 4, the cork is 4X the price and I bet not even as good. Get both and compare. Pods are in another world performance-wise, but also cost-wise, so try Nobsound first. I used Nobsound under mine. Was using BDR before that and springs were a big improvement. So seriously doubt there are any cones or spikes you can put your turntable on that will be as good as a spring. At least until you get up into Townshend territory. Nobsound are on Amazon and the same thing is sold under different names, slightly different appearance, but the same springs. Have seen versions priced as low as $25/set of 4. |
OMG Rick and F1 cars are only 200 mph, the speed of sound is 761 mph, krikey! you're right they should totally be tethered!
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It is pretty crazy watching my 125 lb 20"x30" Belles float. When I
touch them they move like a suspended turntable. It would make me
nervous if they were on stands. Definitely want to secure them. That I would like to see. Speakers safety-wired, like the hood on a Mustang. Way cool. |
Haven't tried bars but they are all the same basic technology, the precision-damped spring. It is in a way just like everything else, just another attempt at isolation. But Townshend does it so well when you put a component on there it is not like it gets a little better, it is more like a significant component upgrade. Not a little better, a whole new thing. Really. Which is hard for a lot of people to believe, but true, and I only wish more people knew. So thanks for sharing. |
