I’ve been using Blu-Tack for at least a decade. Yes it’s good, very good. +1 audioguy85 - However I would absolutely use it in conjunction with isolation methods, such as well engineered Townshend products.
@millercarbon - this is something you aught to try, between your Moabs and the podiums. It is indeed a versatile and useful putty indeed (two indeeds, I really do agree). Also useful as a gasket on drivers (subs). @edgyhassle - I’ve heard the bars on a pair of (75Kg) 165lb floor standers, and yes it cleans up a lot of energies, which in turn helps to make speakers disappear by removing colouration (good ’ol English spelling right there) :-) Great investment in your system, mate. The bars work exceptionally well, bdp24 is correct, there are many ways they can be implemented and assuredly provide gains for systems not employing isolation techniques. |
@arthur1260 I use springs on my stand mounts, and it makes a very significant difference.
You could use Blu-Tack to secure the flat bottoms of your stands on the podiums, or drill tap and bolt them once you’re satisfied they are the bump in performance I suggest you will hear. Bolting the stand to the podiums, or clamping them ensures security for your handsome looking speakers.
I just saw the PULSAR2 Graphene - just wow.
You haven’t posted a system page, I went to see if they have a space enough to pass a beam or something to clamp your tri-stands on podiums without modifications. You just never know when you might want to upgrade and sell me your podiums... (did I really just type that out aloud?)
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@clearthinker - you have inspired me, I'm changing my avatar photo.
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@edgyhassle - I suspect (it is a guess, I will admit) that the bars do such a significantly effective job with your heavy speakers, that the small increase in performance the podiums may represent would not represent the bang for buck you have made. I think it was a prudent choice, one for which you are not suffering at all. And being able to secure the bars to the body of your enclosure (did you use screws?) would certainly give peace of mind.
It is curious to move such a heavy object with a small gesture from just the pinky finger, and for those who haven't experienced it.... They do settle down to equilibrium, and when music is playing literally appear totally motionless.
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The Podiums are, of course, designed to decouple the speakers from the floor, but when speakers are placed on stands, there will be some vibration between them. So even if the Podiums have their intended effect, they obviously can’t prevent interaction between the speaker and the stand. Yes, you’re right. It’s a consideration I have contemplated myself actually. Laminating a softer material to them can dampen the ringing and also move resonant frequencies outside important frequencies. @arthur1260 whipsaw has brought up an important point, and I’m likely to try something like https://www.secondskinaudio.com/sound-blocking/luxury-liner-pro and wrap it around the uprights, secured with tape as a proof of concept, before trying something more permanent. I’d prefer https://www.secondskinaudio.com/acoustics/mega-zorbe-prohowever the white isn’t going to look good for me. Maybe both? Another approach was to use a corner foam bass trap and cut out for the front leg of the stands and sit it in there to help clean up imaging, as back pressure moving around the stand mount’s bass driver will be reflected from the front edge of the stand closest to the speaker. To mitigate the seeming loss of bass, because it won’t be transferred through the substrate, using a TMD on top of your speaker, will tighten up the bass, the bass will be punchier and have more speed. It will require tuning the mass, and playing with the absorber material, however even without precision, benefits for modest cost and time will yield good results. http://www.audiopolitan.com/blog/eti-amg-toppers-review/@audioguy85 - I'll be checking out atabites, I've only used ilmenite also with good results. Cheers. |
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@pack66184 - why? Because they actually work?
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@arthur1260 - scratch the idea of using open cell foam on the front of your stands, I just tried it with 4" foam from the floor to base of speakers, it didn’t make any noticeable difference. And my stands when I rap my knuckles on them they ring a little. Mapman is correct, experimentation isn’t going to cost you much to get an idea if it’s going to benefit you or not. The Townshend products have been developed over decades of experience, and rarely don’t improve the sound of speakers in my experience, and many reports here in Agon. An example of probably not needed is electrostatic panel speakers for example, well unless it has a sub built in, or dipole speakers...etc. Many of us have been trying to get the word out, because we want others to get a the benefits of isolation technology. There’s plenty of threads where isolation is used on all types of devices, the greatest improvement across the board, seems to be speakers, it affects both the analog and digital crowd. And millercarbon, before you go there about analog - Anti-NIKE Just Don’t Do IT! hahahahaha
Speakers safety-wired, like the hood on a Mustang.
F1 cars have wheel tethers, pretty cool safety feature. +1 ozzy oi oi oi - sorry I just had to |
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@pindac - I am wondering if the Quads 2912 do benefit from isolation? They don’t appear to have a conventional bass driver? I am happy to read of your experience, and acknowledge that I have never heard an electrostatic panel on isolation of any kind. An example of probably not needed is electrostatic panel speakers for example, well unless it has a sub built in, or dipole speakers...etc.RixTheTrick
The above comment was based on discussions in previous threads on spring isolation of which I have always been outspokenly pro-isolation on speakers and equipment since joining Agon. Everything in my system is isolated on some sort of spring system, I am actively pro Townshend, and many in here know that I have also named Sweden’s SolidTech, great looking and by all accounts I’ve read, effective isolation. ( I haven’t had opportunity to hear or use them yet) Oh, I have heard stand mount speakers on the Townshend Audio bars, just simply transformative. This is why I am so very much into isolation, and I have isolation on everything. |
@vinylshadow - if you can, post a picture of those items you are specifically talking about on a system page. Something about a picture says a thousand words... I’m not even suggesting your whole system if it’s an issue, just that which you are enquiring about.
Using the same type of Isolation that has been used under a Shelve/Sub Plinth and used as footer separating a Device from the Shelve/Sub Plinth Material has shown more meaningful and noticeable changes to a Devices performance.
Yes! I also trial with Tiers of materials to produce a Shelve/Sub Plinth and MDF has not found its way as go to material in these permutations either.
It has been a long time since MDF has been trialed so I can’t quite recollect why it was not desired, but any material that I perceive as
Bass Heavy Footed is rejected by myself, as this in my mind is smearing the details and suppressing the Mid’s to Highs of the frequency range. MDF laminated to steel plate - ever try that? It’s good. HDF laminated to steel plate, is even better. I have produced a Sub Plinth, that consists of a Material used under Laboritory Floors to absorb Micro Vibrations, this is Multi Tiered and has produced two Piers to a Height of 500mm. I don’t care if you PM me with it, I just have to learn what it is ... please?? |
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mijostyn wrote The problem is your floor resonates which is what muddies the bass. Back when I was installing systems (a long time ago) we hung speakers from the ceiling on chains or cables. I really do not think that work particularly well. Instead of muddy bass we got no bass. Things like bass drum impacts disappeared. The real solution is a sturdier floor which is only possible if the floor is open below. This is an issue with floor joists and second story wooden framed homes, I have been suggesting for quite some time to pre-load the substrate using a very heavy mass under the speakers. Spanning joists if possible, as they are engineered for load bearing. The obvious issue is having something shallow enough to not raise the speakers too much. The extra mass aught to somewhat alleviate the floor movement, and the extra mass will help to deform the springs, using Newton’s laws of motion. Almost the more practicable mass the better. The entire goal is for transient energies to deform the springs, rather than transfer energy where these energies will infiltrate into other items such as the other speaker, the rack, the walls etc. @vinylshadow I wonder if any of you have an opinion on any significant benefit of putting isolation platters under suspended tables on an immobile rack. Your rigid heavy rack should certainly help, however your center speaker (yes I saw the photos, thanks) will be a localised source of energies to excite the stand, and everything on it. Also, I have 140 pound JM Lab Mezzo Utopia speakers each on 4 fat spikes/metal discs with felt bottoms on tile which is on top of the concrete foundation.
They sound fantastic but I don’t know if they could sound better with different Townshend isolation bars/podiums...Any thoughts would be most appreciated. Thanks. It is my best guess (I have not had to contend with your exact situation, the following is based upon observations and my brand of logic). If you isolate all of your speakers, particularly the center speaker and those with the largest bass drivers (I haven’t seen your entire system). This will probably be the best solution, as a first matter of isolation. Mitigate at the source of the vibrations, rather than implement control measures at critical component level, is my methodology. Possibly better would be to remove the center channel speaker and have it on it’s own stand, I’m guessing that may not be practical though? Personally, it is my opinion that it is after the speaker isolation is primarily resolved (that center channel for sure), that your TT should be addressed. Because instead of eliminating the vibrations into your TT through the stand, you’d be making efforts to transform energies leaving your speakers via springs (it needs to be a broad spectrum of frequencies you can attenuate), from even entering the stand and everything else on it. Concrete floor, is better for isolation than peer and beam, you are already ahead in the game. ** Thoughts: The rug could be bigger to deal with first reflections, and does that glass table get some reflections bounce off of it? If you absolutely cannot live without it, maybe drop something over it during critical listening or a movie that is special? Possibly try it and see if it even makes a difference?? You can tell me to pull my head in, I’m just making observations. |
@pindac
I have three Japanese drumming CDs, and one in particular that I enjoy (Yakudo - Japanese Drums) which is more traditional sounding and organic of the three.
Isolation has proved to provide a fast articulate bass from my stand mounts, where the timbre and speed produced are more convincing to my mind of drums I have heard at live events. I used to regularly social dance to Latin music, at venues where live artists played.
The tone of the drum and the skin used over the drum frame are very clear and have such character, just as singers voices vary so much, the drums have their own timbre.
I had this discussion with another Agon member yesterday, we spoke about how as we refined our systems we can enjoy them at lower listening levels. I suggested that as the distortion was removed each step of our upgrades, for example for me power conditioning, the information in the sound produced was all still there at lower listening levels.
We enjoy listening at lower levels, also lowering distortion, because the noise floor and unwanted reflected energies were sufficiently removed as a process we were engaged in, because we didn't lose audible information at lower levels.
Not unlike listening later in the evening where both outside noises drop off and the air seems cooler and settles.
Some perceive that there is a lesser bass with isolation techniques implemented. The drivers are moving as they were before, however the resulting energies that deform the speaker cabinet will be attenuated to the point where the energies aren't transferred through the substrate.
The muddiness you refer to detracts from everything else, just as you said.
With isolation correctly implemented it's like to room boundaries are opened up, as the very walls themselves are decoupled from the bass.
Playing bass rich music at higher levels (let's face it, Rock music requires some ooomph to really get you there) where you cannot feel vibrations through your feet, through the chair you're sitting on, it's very different the first time you experience it. The resulting sound information that can be discerned is the pay off.
Yes pindac, seems my ears favor that which you discuss, also.
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@vinylshadow - Contact Townshend and ask them about their return policy, ask them about results on your particular model speakers, by customers.
I suspect the only people who could honestly answer that with any authority are those who have actually done it with your model speakers, which I have not.
Townshend Audio make a well engineered product, by most accounts many speakers like yours have had significant and impressive step up in performance. I cannot tell you with absolute certainty, or express experience with your speakers, to do so would be conjecture. And I don't know what your expectations are for that matter.
I'm not trying to be obtuse or combative, just trying to be forthright.
If it is in your budget, based upon my experience with isolation, it is a worthy investment with high reward to risk ratio.
Placing yourself in a situation where you can back out of the experiment with nominal risk (return policy in place) for your due diligence, would be advisable.
At an educated guess, I think trying the two main speakers, with the subs off just to determine if it's going to be a winner, will have you very impressed. Again, at a guess.
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I'd be very surprised if Focal had used Townshend products, and be even more surprised if in Europe where they make and sell a lot of Focals, that someone hadn't purchased the exact model of your speakers and used Townshend under them.
I would email Townshend Audio and ask them if they have any feedback from customers who use your speakers.
Depending on your subs, disconnecting the RCA connections, or power will suffice. It's just to stop them vibrating the room and undoing all the good
isolation
Townshend will provide. Then put the subs on isolation if it works.
Speaker bars where you already bolt the feet under your Focals, that's what I'd do first. No modifications to the speakers, and stability for safety of the speakers, should be a great way to start off.
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So I have no choice but to use the isolation bars from left to right. Do they work exactly as good as the Podiums?
Does
it count for anything that when I put my phone on the tile right in
front of a speaker cranking music, that with a Hamm Seismograph app on,
there is absolutely no vibration registered on the tile?
I have not heard the podiums under speakers, the bars work very well. So the substrate already doesn't move whatsoever? Even with your hand you feel nothing? even on your rack? |
Seems you have options. Having a trial period to listen to products - that's been my suggestion all along.
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Leverage will work(a dolly) under the accessible front corners and left
rear corner pretty easily. Getting leverage to the right rear corner
will be super tough. I wonder if I can get a car jack to fit. There's
about 1.5" of space below the base bars....I only need to raise each
corner about 3/4". Even if you don't have a trolley jack to lift it, I recall it was plenty heavy (I haven't scrolled back up to see) speaking of leverage, maybe you could use a simple bar and block with the help of a friend to lever it up, chock it, get your isolator under it and remove the chock? Be sure and if you do use some lever bar with a block as a pivot point, use something soft not to scratch the underside of your pretty and expensive rack.
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