Best vintage DD turntables from the 70's and 80's?

@rcronk   
ironically the OP's Technics Sl1200GR beats the Rega P6 based on my listening experiences.  
sound quality may not be the goal here... 

Dear @knollbrent : You ask or looking for a vintage TT where you can mount 3 arms and that DD vintage is the MS DDX-1000.

But for your budget range between 5K-10K you don't have to go with vintage DD TTs.

Today you can get extremly good BD TTs that accepts 3 tonearms as the Acoustic Signature that are really good. I like DD but exist very good BD and when you buy a today TT you don't have to woorry to re-furbished or in case of a problem where will be fixed.

Think about.

R.

The Exclusive P10 is reportedly very close sonically to the P3 and should give you more leeway financially. But for some reason it is much rarer on the used market than the P3.

There's one for sale on Canuck Audio Mart ... but deal with it before it disappears quickly.

Ho visto quel braccio in vendita separatamente a prezzi superiori a $ 4000.

Pioneer PA70 tonearm? Nahhhhhh......now 580$.....I would have done it this week but on a Technics plinth SH 10 B3 is too high.

@lewm,

The tonearm of the PL-70L II is very similar to the one on the P3 and P10, but not identical. The most obvious difference is that the P3/P10 arm is dynamically balanced, whereas the PL-70L II arm is statically balanced. The P3/P10 armlift also has its own lever on the armbase (instead of a push button on the plateau rim, like on the 70L).
It may have been available as a separate product, but I don't remember ever seeing it for sale. So it must have been quite rare, which would then go a long way to explain a $4k asking price. 

The Exclusive P10 is reportedly very close sonically to the P3 and should give you more leeway financially.

I own the P3 and have owned two P10's.  the P10 is a very nice table, however the P3 is in another universe as far as as sound quality goes. 

Outside of the parts of the tonearm - its very cool being able to swap arm wands between both tables, everything else on the P3 is built exclusively for the P3 and is the best table Pioneer knew how to make and it sounds amazing.   

There are two versions of P3, the best one is P3-A - right ? 

According to the vintageknob the signal-to-noise ratio went from 78dB on the P3 to 95dB on the P3A, so I suppose it is correct to assume it is (much) better. The P10 was also high up on the list of that Japanese turntable shoot-out in Stereo Sound magazine in 1980, but the P3 was the clear winner.

According to the vintageknob the signal-to-noise ratio went from 78dB on the P3 to 95dB on the P3A, so I suppose it is correct to assume it is (much) better.

There's also a footnote explaining that.  

I love my JVC QL-Y7F.  Unbelievably quiet and detailed.  I love the electronic arm (this coming from someone who just sold a Triplanar) and the auto and cueing features.  My backup is a Technics SP10 Mk2 which has been refurbished.  As good as the SP10 is, the JVC always sounded better to me.  The SP10 sounds a little "edgy" in comparison, i.e the JVC is more smooth and relaxed.  I A/B'ed the tables using a Lyra Delos.

I also had a number of belt driven tables before trying DDs.  Invariably I stopped listening to classical piano records on these tables (think Beethoven sonatas, or Ivan Moravec playing Chopin) because of the wow/flutter that is non-existent on DDs.  If you are sensitive to this distortion, a lot of belt drives (or more likely just the slipping belts) don't cut it.  

And how many times have I forgotten to lift the arm at the end of the record so that it spun for hours in the lead-out grove.  The JVC has a great auto-return and shutoff mechanism.

There are two versions of P3, the best one is P3-A - right ?

They are the same table except for the tonearm which has some different specs to be more compatible with lighter more modern lower compliance carts as I was told once. I have had no issues with modern cart’s at all, so perhaps more to have a new model when the Technics SP10mk3 was released.

According to the vintageknob the signal-to-noise ratio went from 78dB on the P3 to 95dB on the P3A, so I suppose it is correct to assume it is (much) better.

as JP mentioned, that is incorrect. If you read the footnote, all that happened was a different way to measure signal to noise ratio. The P3 and P3a are the same table and both measure the same.


cheers

I've had a few DD tables over the years, but recently picked up a Denon DP-80. It really is marvelous. I have it mounted in a custom two-armed plinth and while I will continue to run other decks I think it really is for me the "end game" table. It just does everything right, does no ill and is incredibly quick and easy to use. What more can one ask for?

@downunder

yes, I overlooked this footnote. Sorry for the confusion. Come to think of it, this difference in specs does seem unrealistic......

No probs Edgewear.   A bit like the specs they used for cd when comparing to vinyl,  not apples to apples 

The SP10 sounds a little "edgy" in comparison....

What plinth do you use?

Der @knollbrent : Other alternative you have are the new/today Technics TT's.

In your price rnge you don't need to deal with a vintage one. Today makes no sense to me.
R.

Some people just don't understand that classic high-end only increased its value over the years on the used marked, while the new high-end only decreased in value once it leave the shop. New Technics turntables will be availabe for the next 20 years and the price will be lower on the used market (except for the limited edition model). Some of the best vintage DD turntables getting rare and highly collectible. Some of them are incredibly good compared to the most new turntables. Like a classic cars they have charming design compared to the ugly turntables of today.    

Thank you @rauliruegas  for your suggestions. With all the suggestions I've gotten on this thread and the research I've done, I can't say that I can do any better than the Luxman. 

1. First of all, it's super hard to find some of these suggested vintage tables, IF you can find them. 

2. IF you do find one, it's gonna cost a lot and it might need some work done still. The build quality of the Luxman is top notch. I wouldn't want anything less. 

3. As @chakster states, the "Classics" are in a league of their own. Like a classic car, but you still have to find one and fix it if needed. 

4. I need flexibility to be able to change arms too and I'm seeing most of these vintage tables have fixed arms. That's why the Luxman is so good for this reason. Easy peasy to swap out arms. 

Now, what I'm beginning to think of is entertaining the thought of selling the Technics GR at some time and getting a bad ass NEW table that has the ability for 2 arms. Something really cool. Direct drive the way to go? Not interested in having to fidget with belts etc unless it's not a problem. 

I'm going to research some of the new tables and see what I come up with. 

best-groove154 posts10-06-2018 11:05pm

The SP10 sounds a little "edgy" in comparison....

What plinth do you use?

   Certainly not my words.   

I have a SP10mk3, not mk2.  It is in the factory plinth with Stillpoint V feet, micro seiki CU180 copper mat with Thales Simplicity II tonearm
and JP Jones wonderful MN6042 chip replacement     - a must for all SP10 mk3's 
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/technics-sp-10mk3-turntable-and-jp-jones-replacement-chip-for-mn6042

sound is powerful, concise, energetic and smooth - The P3 has a fraction more top end extension imo.

cheers

A refurbished SP10mk3 could be a fun possibility. Staying with vintage DD, 2 arm capability. I wonder how the SP10mk3 compares to the new G? 

@downunder @lewm  @ch

You’d better ask jpjones about new vs. old Technics.

In my opinion square chassis of SP-10mkIII is not good for two tonearms, the plinth must be huge for two arms and the arms must be "12 inch ideally. Stock Obsidian plinth is not designed for two tonearms, not even for "12 inch tonearm. My teak wood custom plinth was big even for one tonearm, imagine how big it must be for two tonearms. Normally plinth makers asking for a plinth more than we paid for turntable.

Here is a pic of my old Technics with several tonearms:
1) Schick "12 inch + SPU
2) EPA-100 "10.5 + ZYX Airy III EPA-100
3) Reed 3P "12 + Glanz 61
4) Without arms and plinth on Audio-Technica pneumatic footers.

This is a kind of plinth i really like (visually), you can compare two different kinds: https://oswaldsmillaudio.com/technics

BUT here is OMA Technics without square chassis!

Imagine the price for OMA plinth :)
and then the price for each armboard if you want to change the arm.

P.S. Victor TT-101 is more user friendly for many tonearms, here is a nice blog of Tuchan: https://audiocirc.com/2016/04/08/a-good-table-deserves-a-good-plinth/

Anyway each time i think about custom plinth it’s a P.I.T.A., because someone have to make them and it’s too complicated if you don’t have the right person to deal with.

This is the reason i love my pair of Luxman PD-444, i can forget about that plinth problem, i can use any tonearms i want, i can install them quickly and swap them quickly.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/technics-sp10-mk2-vs-sl-1200g-i-finally-did-an-a-b?highlight=...

I just read through this thread. Plenty for me to chew on. 

@knollbrent just to tease (jpjones blog):

SP-10mkIII http://fidelisanalog.com/2018/04/22/nos-technics-sp-10mk3-maiden-voyage/ 

SP-10R http://fidelisanalog.com/2018/05/25/technics-sp-10r-unboxing/#more-939 

Victor TT-101 http://fidelisanalog.com/2016/11/25/barn-find-victor-tt-101/ 

4) Without arms and plinth on Audio-Technica pneumatic footers.

is the best solution according to your opinion?

@best-groove 

haha, definitely without arms :)) 
but only to look at, i've never tried in action as i don't have tonearm pod, but i think it must be pretty good if the owner will have one or two tonearm pods and those special preumatic footers. With tonearm pods everyone could swap the arm quickly, but the platrorm under the turntable/pods must be nice too. 

I'm happy to see someone here recognized the excellence of the Denon DP80 as against the Technics backbone of this thread.  Enjoy!  I think it's a Best Buy, if you can find a nice one.
I agree with Downunder on the relationship between the Pioneer Exclusive P3 and P10.  The P3 is thought to be superior by a wide margin.  JP alluded to the difference between the P3 and P3a.  Yes, the P3a is said to have a better S/N ratio, but there was a change in the method for measuring S/N associated with the introduction of the P3a (1979, I think) that might account for the better number associated with the P3a.  There may be other small physical differences between the two, but I never found any testimony to support the notion that P3a was superior to P3, and market values are the same for both models. High. Sadly, I have no personal experience with either.

You ask or looking for a vintage TT where you can mount 3 arms and that DD vintage is the MS DDX-1000.

I have Micro's successor model, DQX-1000. Many improvements, e.g. higher torque motor, and heavier platter, though thinner, and low center of gravity. I like the looks of both, kind of "retro high-tech".
I also have the Denon DP80. I can't praise it enough. It has all the virtues of the Garrard 301 and Thorens 124 I used to own, with none of their drawbacks.

test

@rauliruegas  123

what??!!!

bimasta, Biggest difference between M-S DDX1000 and DQX1000, in addition to all the other differences you point out, is that the latter has a quartz-referenced speed control, whereas the DDX does not.  A very important difference.

When I worked for RSL in the 1970s we were a Luxman dealer.  As I recall, the Luxman repair tech that would come by the stores occasionally told me that the PD-441 and PD-444 motors were designed for Luxman and manufactured by Teac.

I like my Pioneer PL-71 I purchased back in 1974.   I had to dampen the tonearm, so it would handle my Urushi Black, but it’s still a gem.

@br3098 

When I worked for RSL in the 1970s we were a Luxman dealer. As I recall, the Luxman repair tech that would come by the stores occasionally told me that the PD-441 and PD-444 motors were designed for Luxman and manufactured by Teac.

Interesting. Are you sure ? 

I'm sure that is what we were told by the Luxman rep; that Teac manufactured the motors to Luxman's specifications.  Having said that, I am not sure that it is true.  For some reason the owners frowned upon sales folks disassembling expensive gear.

But it does make sense.  The PD-441/444 motor does bear more than a passing resemblance to that used in the original Teac TN-400.

Since Teac, at sometime or other, has made things for almost  every major brand, it is highly likely .

I have a Teac TN-400 that I like quite a bit. It has an Oracle/SME arm.

the thing with vintage tt, although they may be very good, unless I could get a smoking deal on one and knew the owner, I would probably look at newer models.  If I already had a great vintage table, thats another thing.

In the works to acquire Victor 101 flying saucer and service in the states. Comes with original plinth. 

“Flying saucer”?
Did autocorrect do that?
If what you are getting is a 100 V model, as most of them were, just be sure you use a step down transformer, before you apply AC.

@lewm it's what I call the 101 TT drive. Flying saucer :)

@lewm

If what you are getting is a 100 V model, as most of them were,

Just a reminder that the TT-101/QL10 are voltage convertible
at an internal electrical connection.

Yes, thank you. Just like Luxman.

Victor upper end models, same as Denons are often referred as "Flying Saucers" although I think the Denons look a bit like a cake that went lopsided. LOL
BillWojo

Just a reminder that the TT-101/QL10 are voltage convertible
at an internal electrical connection

@totem395  Do you know how to do it or do you have an explanatory photo to explain to those who own a TT101 here?